The result of years of poaching and reflects a wider problem and reflects a wider problem and in the battle for space and resources, wildlife is in a losing fight with humanity in many parts of africa. My Guest Todayis many parts of africa. My Guest Today is paula kahumbu. Kenyan conservationist, campaignerand conservationist, campaigner and broadcaster. She conservationist, campaignerand broadcaster. She is trying to make Conservation Africa plus plus common cause. So, how is she doing. Conservation africas common cause. Paula kahumbu In Nairobi, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much i welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much. I appreciate welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much. I appreciate being very much. I appreciate being invited to speak year. It is very much. I appreciate being invited to speak year. Invited to speak year. It is a pleasure invited to speak year. It is a pleasure to invited to speak year. It is a pleasure to have invited to speak year. It is a pleasure to have you invited to speak year. It is a pleasure to have you on invited to speak year. It is a pleasure to have you on the show. For decades, you have been a conservationist and a wildlife advocate. After all of those years, do you think you are winning . I those years, do you think you are winning . Are winning . I think we are winnin are winning . I think we are winning on are winning . I think we are winning on some are winning . I think we are winning on some friends i are winning . I think we are | winning on some friends for sure. There is some progress, but i would say that overall, we are in big trouble and most people dont appreciate just how serious it is. Do people dont appreciate ust how serious it is. Do kenyans want to hear how serious it is. Do kenyans want to hear your how serious it is. Do kenyans want to hear your message, | how serious it is. Do kenyans i want to hear your message, do you think . You are a successful broadcaster in your shoes are well watched across the continent of africa. I wonder after all these years if you give him a little cynical about whether or not kenyans want to hear it . I whether or not kenyans want to hear it . ~ , whether or not kenyans want to hear it . ~ ,. , hear it . I think it depends on which kenyans hear it . I think it depends on which kenyans you hear it . I think it depends on which kenyans you are hear it . I think it depends on l which kenyans you are talking about. When i started my Tv Series, many years ago. People told me that it was hopeless, that kenyans do not care about nature about life and they cared about the food on their plates. Our Tv Series is one of the most successful in the continent and in kenya alone, 50 of People Watcher shows and there is broad public interest and a big part of it is because there is not much Wildlife Content on Television Anywhere in the continent, especially content made by ourselves for our own audiences, there is nothing apart from what we are producing. It is making a difference . I think so. There is a massive shift in confidence here in kenya when we organise events and rally people together, thousands of people together, thousands of people participate more than 50 of kenyans and the city of nairobi say they want to volunteer for nature. But i would say the problem and the challenge we have is not at the level of the mass public, but the challenges winning the hearts and minds of the political leadership. Notjust in kenya but across the continent stopped it relates to something you just said. To continent stopped it relates to something you just said. Something you ust said. To the new Yorker Something you just said. To the new Yorker Magazine something you just said. To the new Yorker Magazine not something you just said. To the new Yorker Magazine not to. Something you just said. To the i new Yorker Magazine not to long ago. Is not something that many kenyans do. It is a white thing. Do you think you have changed that . Thing. Do you think you have chanced that . ,. ,. ,. , changed that . Plenty of Amazing Ounu changed that . Plenty of amazing young african changed that . Plenty of amazing young african scientists changed that . Plenty of amazing young african scientists and young african scientists and conservationists who are singing the same hammer. This is a big part of our colonial legacy. From the Hunting Background and during colonial days, the only people who were allowed to hunt legally where the colonial overlords. When things changed in hunting was banned. Those same people became the conservationists in them and their future generations of them and theirfuture generations of some of the most fierce conservationists on the continent. Africans spec in colonial days were considered poachers and until today, it seems like it is the picture of the image that people feel about it and telling people that it about it and telling people thatitis about it and telling people that it is ok for africans to be conservationists, it means really bucking the Trend And Singing on the second, its not just white people who do conservation and doing conservation and doing Conservation Isnt about going backwards. When i started, i was told by colleagues of mine that they would fight for me in government to prevent them from sending me to the bush to do research because they thought that was a very backward thing to do in those days and we came from the bush, why would you go back there . So, there is a lot of change that is happened in the last few decades, but we still have quite a bit of work to do. ,. , to do. To get personal, whether or not that to do. To get personal, whether or not that apply to do. To get personal, whether or not that apply to to do. To get personal, whether or not that apply to your to do. To get personal, whether or not that apply to your own i or not that apply to your own family. Your mum is white but your father is a black kenyan and frankly, five of them thought it was inappropriate for you to forgo a City Career In Nairobi and had to the bushes as fast as you possibly could . ,. , ,. , could . Know, it was my mum who thou~ht could . Know, it was my mum who thought that could . Know, it was my mum who thought that going could . Know, it was my mum who thought that going to could . Know, it was my mum who thought that going to work could . Know, it was my mum who thought that going to work in thought that going to work in the bush would be dangerous and not something that girls too. Its not about the colour of my skin but it was that girls do do that. My father was much more easy going and that was very exciting that i was working in rural areas in the country, and the wild, sometimes for months on and buy myself. He thought that was fantastic. And the dangers are real and my mother was right to be cautious but, my parents are very encouraging and my family were very encouraging. You came to the ranks were very encouraging. You came to the ranks of were very encouraging. You came to the ranks of different to the ranks of different conservation organisations. And you ended up working closely with richard and his Wildlife Organisation and you and he launched his campaign, hands off relevance which caused an enormous stir going back seven years or so in kenya. Why did you decide to focus so heavily on the elephant . Focus so heavily on the elephant . Focus so heavily on the elehant . ,. , focus so heavily on the elehant . Elephant . Richard and i had a Background Elephant . Richard and i had a background in elephant . Richard and i had a background in evidence. Elephant . Richard and i had a background in evidence. I elephant . Richard and i had a background in evidence. I did| background in evidence. I did my phd on elephants. I have the academic basis for this and we both watched the government try and fight and prevent the reopening of the Ivory Trade in the Re Emergence of this problem was something that is very close to both of us. It was the one who launched it Way Backin was the one who launched it way back in 1989 and elephants are something that we thought, if you are going to going into campaigning, this was going to be the best species to start with. But also, he felt that we needed to really maybe smash this perception that the elephants were fine and that everything was ok when it wasnt. He knew from people on the ground, that there were big problems and if elephants are being gunned down across the country. Those guns are being used species as well. Its just that elephants are the easiest to see and haul away the whole carcass of an elephant. We had to start with elephants, but it was not for the sake of elephants alone, it was to launch a new approach, which was campaigning for wildlife in africa. ,. ,. , africa. That opening thought about being africa. That opening thought about being in africa. That opening thought about being in a africa. That opening thought about being in a positive about being in a positive trajectory, it is tempting to try to find the positives and seeing the elephant story, particularly kenya, something positive from around 18,000 elephants, youre not back to something like 30,000. The government claims victory against the poachers in the number of poachers, they say, that are being prosecuted is way down simply because much less poaching is happening in the country. With that send a message to the world saying that elephants and continue to represent what we can achieve when we really work together as conservationists, as politicians, law enforcers, to get serious about conservation. Absolutely end it was not easy. The government initially were not interested in hearing that there was a problem and so, we are to learn how we could bring on board the different Government Agencies in stopping the poaching men dealing with the poaching men dealing with the police, the wildlife service, the roads authorities in all kinds of different partners, including international organisations. I would say that that challenge, Fighting Poaching and the tracking of ivory was easy compared to the kind of challenges we facing now. Our enemies now are difficult people to wrap your hands around. They are people producing food, how do you call that person an enemy. You cannot commit such a person to jail. The challenge is so much more difficult and that is why it is so important that we win hearts and minds about nature, but we also addressing some of the highest level in the Land Use Strategy of my country is not aligned to the Conservation Strategy and that despite we are seeing Mega Farms and conservation. I despite we are seeing Mega Farms and conservation. I ust wonder in fl farms and conservation. I ust wonder in any i farms and conservation. I ust wonder in any degree i farms and conservation. Ijust wonder in any degree that farms and conservation. Ijust| wonder in any degree that you have held the alliance to the leadership of your country. Kenyans more than anyone will say that you are friends of the president s wife and you are so pleased that the president took that Photo Opportunity and burn hundreds of tonnes of ivory in front of the tv cameras. An essence, you helped them deliver a message that he and his government are true carers about conservation and may be, that isnt quite The Truth. Look, i have no regrets. And i also dont have a prominent friends or enemies in this business. You have to work with what we have. The president of kenya has gone up publicly, internationally and stated his commitment for this country. And he was at the assembly last year and said that kenya had made some very bad decisions. We are developing our country at the cost of the environment and that is not sustainable. And he made a commitment that kenya would end the extinction of species than ten years by making sure it is not business as usual but all businesses have to align themselves to sustainability. The problem is, you go down the ranks of various agencies, whether it be roads or Transport Infrastructure industry, agriculture, we are not seeing that message being picked up and that is where i think, we have the challenge. That is a lot to deal with our systems, our priority in which the environment is listed in our Budget And Decision making and the president speak Development Agenda doesnt include environment is a big problem for me. Iiii environment is a big problem for me. Environment is a big problem for me. ,. , environment is a big problem forme. , for me. If i may stop you there. For me. If i may stop you there, that for me. If i may stop you there, that is for me. If i may stop you there, that is the for me. If i may stop you | there, that is the problem for me. If i may stop you there, that is the problem im trying to address. And industrialisation in your country as he sees it is prioritising infrastructure, new roads and rails, new energy supplies, all of these initiatives which are threatening those about spaces which you spent your whole career trying to protect. So, isnt it time you spoke out long and loud against the priorities and strategy of your own government . Own government . Yes, absolutely. Own government . Yes, absolutely. And own government . Yes, absolutely. And i own government . Yes, | absolutely. And i totally own government . Yes, absolutely. And i totally agree with you. We do need to speak out and we need to speak out with the unified voice. The message cannot be that we do not have development. That is not have development. That is not a message that is going to win any support anywhere in africa, frankly. We have to find a solution that serves both the development aspirations of kenya and african countries, as well as the survival of our countries because, what i say we are trying to save and preserve these wilderness areas, it is notjust because i love The Beatles and the butterflies in the trees. These are the Life Support systems. These are the sources of fresh water, soil, the Water Services that all of these ecosystems provide. I understand that a holistic approach, but i would also understand kenyans to remember that for example, you opposed the new Rail Line that went through Nairobi National Park and it was a terrible mistake. You opposed to big new Hotel Development proposed which you said was a terrible mistake. You opposed to high Profile Music Festival and by The National Parks Single was a terrible mistake. All of these things are jobs generators and economic growth generators and your average kenyan might be more interested in that than in protecting the butterflies. What im saying is, we do need to have all those things. We just dont need them inside her protected areas. Our protected areas are called that because they are meant to be protecting they are meant to be protecting the Wildlife And Nature inside of them they think that the government is making very serious mistakes by putting Railways Power lines, pipelines, roads into our National Parks and i will continue to shout and scream from the mountain tops about that. The parties and the raves and the concerts inside the protected areas. Speaking out about that has gotten me in so much trouble. Im actually banned from the National Parks right now because i took the government to court on that issue and as a result, the General Public got to know that vultures and kenya are Critically Endangered and putting a concert inside this area was going to contribute to that problem. Pare area was going to contribute to that problem that problem. Are you really banned, strained that problem. Are you really banned, strained to that problem. Are you really banned, strained to see that problem. Are you really banned, strained to see if i that problem. Are you really i banned, strained to see if you are officially banned and a lot of officials and kenyans seem a little confused by this claim of yours. Are you sure as one of yours. Are you sure as one of kenyas most famous conservationists, youre actually barred and banned from going to any National Park . There was a countjust last week and i was listed as one of the volunteers and i got a call at eight oclock at night i was told you will not be allowed into the park. If you come, so i advise you not to come because youre going to embarrass the team that you will be working with. This is the kind of thing that sadly happens in my country is that they will not put it in writing, they will not make a public, they will humiliate you, and the way, they will send a message to Anyone Else who also dares to challenge the system. The idea of building hotels inside this National Park that were doing the Game Count in. It is contrary in the know it and they dont want me to see whats happening. Those structures are really being built in the National Park and i think. Is built in the National Park and i think. ,. , i think. Is in the problem here that ou i think. Is in the problem here that you want i think. Is in the problem here that you want wildlife i think. Is in the problem here that you want wildlife to i think. Is in the problem here that you want wildlife to roam j that you want wildlife to roam free and to pursue their Migration Routes around kenya in neighbouring countries is of no borders existed, Transport Infrastructure was necessary and The Truth is that without fences and without barriers, it is impossible to see how you can have completely peaceful and happy coexistence between humans and barred animals across kenya and indeed large parts of africa. Its across kenya and indeed large parts of africa. Parts of africa. Its very simple. Parts of africa. Its very simple. Just parts of africa. Its very simple, just convince. Parts of africa. Its very i simple, just convince the people in. Is simple, just convince the people in simple, just convince the eolein. , people in. Is that which sure eole people in. Is that which sure people and people in. Is that which sure people and can people in. Is that which sure people and can you people in. Is that which sure people and can you really i people in. Is that which sure i people and can you really want to hear that they should be fenced in and the animal should be free to roam across millions of factors. Be free to roam across millions of factore of factors. You will be amazed at how many of factors. You will be amazed at how many people of factors. You will be amazed at how many people have i of factors. You will be amazed at how many people have put| at how many people have put their hands on the side of conservation. Hundred 60 Land Owners of created Conservation Areas doubling the Real Estate for conservation and the last ten years. This is not small. This is significant areas of land that are now set aside. People who are not rich, why are they doing it . Because they have a strong traditional cultural collection to the land and the animals on it. And they want to maintain their lifestyle. And this is what they should be grabbing with both hands because securing this land, you securing carbon, water sources and your securing biodiversity. And that is the opportunity that we need to grab with both hands. Yes, we do need Development But Development doesnt have to destroy the protected areas stop by the mejust destroy the protected areas stop by the me just tell your story from my Heart Talk on the to story from my Heart Talk on the t. ,. , to zimbabwe. I went to the national to zimbabwe. I went to the National Park to zimbabwe. I went to the National Park which to zimbabwe. I went to the National Park which is i to zimbabwe. I went to the National Park which is the i to zimbabwe. I went to the i National Park which is the most successful Elephant Conservation Area that is now p Conservation Area that is now up to almost 40,000 elephants there. There are too many elephants when he suffered a terrible drought there, the elephants roam far and wide beyond the National Park and they winter villages, the eight peoples crops and the trampled to death several villages and i heard from those local people that they could not tolerate this invasion of the elephants. In this particularly at a time of Climate Change is challenging so much of africas farming, it is going to be a very long term challenge. In these challenges are not without their solutions. Yes, we will have problems. We have malaria, so many other challenges were not going to solve any of them overnight. And if you go to central kenya, you will see amazing initiatives where landowners are taking down the fences between each other to allow the animals to return to their traditional migratory routes and i think that is something really hopeful and wonderful thatis really hopeful and wonderful that is happening in the country in the Wildlife Numbers and that county are increasing. In other areas where you have human Habitation Right up against conservation, you will have a problem. So you have to have a problem. So you have to have Buffer Zones left corridors. Up until central kenya, what theyve done is create a very simple system of fences that are designed to funnel the elephants slick across the road safely move between great mountains. Without going into anybody� s farms. Itsjust without going into anybody� s farms. Its just simple and logical and if you understand the animals, you can work with them and what they want to do. I really dont think its rocket science, just think it takes a little bit of commitment, some money and some good people and some good ideas. ~. ~ good people and some good ideas. ~. ,. , ideas. We talked about your attitude towards ideas. We talked about your attitude towards the ideas. We talked about your attitude towards the Powers That Be in politics. What about business as well. Im very mindful than the last month and indeed over the last several years, the number of very active conservationist in kenya have been threatened, intimidated and some cases murdered and the police have never found the culprits, but it seems very credible that they were murdered for their activism and their determination to try and halt development and virgin national areas. Do you believe yourself to be at risk . To be at risk . Yes, i do. I think many to be at risk . Yes, i do. I think many of to be at risk . Yes, i do. I think many of us to be at risk . Yes, i do. I think many of us are at l to be at risk . Yes, i do. I i think many of us are at risk. It is dangerous to speak out in a country where your work, although it is a lying meaning to a national priority, its not protected by the police service. So, yes, i do think my life could be at risk. I will not say that i have been threatened recently. I have in the past. Threatened recently. I have in the ast. � ,. , the past. Im guessing what happened the past. Im guessing what happened in the past. Im guessing what happened in july the past. Im guessing what happened in july give i the past. Im guessing what happened in july give you i the past. Im guessing what i happened in july give you pause happened injuly give you pause whenjoanna, a long term conservationist, she was determined to try to halt development in a Wetland Area in a forest National Park, she was murdered and as far as im aware. The Police Investigation has uncovered no suspect, no culprit, certainly no one held to account and you think there is a Law Enforcement Problem here . A Commitment Problem from those in power . Izre here . A Commitment Problem from those in power . Those in power . Ive tried to find out what those in power . Ive tried to find out what the those in power . Ive tried to find out what the status i those in power . Ive tried to find out what the status of i those in power . Ive tried to i find out what the status of the investigation is, i am ashamed to say that there is nothing to show for the investigation. And i think like so many of these things, if theyre not investigated quickly and action is taken straightaway, or the lead school called it would be such a Shame Ifjoanna died in vain. There is a group of us were working very hard to maintain her name and her legacy by securing that forest and creating a memorial to her that all children, there will even be a book for children to help them understand this. We dont want anyone to be silenced by fear that somebody could come and gone you down in broad Daylight And Therell no repercussions. We want people to be bold and courageous and to be bold and courageous and to fight for what is right. That, i think is the only way we are going to save whats left of this incredible biodiversity of the kenya has. The pessimists would say the fight is over that you have lost. Youre a great mentor said he does not see much prospect of kenyan wildlife surviving beyond 2050. What a bleak prospect. Do you share it . ,. ,. ,. ,. , it . No, i do not share that view. It . No, i do not share that view i it . No, i do not share that view. I think it . No, i do not share that view. I think richard i it . No, i do not share that. View. I think richard has his reasons for his beliefs but do not forget, he is also believed in the past that things were beyond repair. Beyond repair. Preps his reasons beyond repair. Preps his reasons were beyond repair. Preps his reasons were the beyond repair. Preps his reasons were the ones i beyond repair. Preps his i reasons were the ones we touched upon. The government is committed to an Industrialisation Growth first strategy and that over 50 Million people are projected to reach over 90 Million by 2,050. These are very basic facts meaning that there may be no more room for the wildlife that you spent trying to defend and conserve. You spent trying to defend and conserve you spent trying to defend and conserve conserve. Yeah, i dont believe conserve. Yeah, i dont believe that. Conserve. Yeah, i dont believe that. Protected i conserve. Yeah, i dont believe that. Protected areas are secure. We have to defend them they have to work on that. And i think the success will be and how we prevent them from becoming islands. That we ensure that everyone has a buffer zone, a community of people for working to support it and are benefiting from that support and that these protected areas are protected because our wildlife is migratory. We have seen amazing changes we have seen history turned back. The Elephants Story is such a good example. Why not gazelles, giraffes, lions, cheetahs. They can come back, all of them can come back. So long as we maintain and secure the Real Estate that we need and maintain those habitat. The problem is so simple but its so frustrating that people cannot see it and will not invest in it. Were not talking about a Heritage Thatis not talking about a heritage that is just kenyan. This is a global heritage. We have more into lib species than any other country in the world. We shouldntjust have this on her own. We need help. Antelope species. Own. We need help. Antelope secies. ~ own. We need help. Antelope secies. ,. ,. , species. Thank you for oining me on hardtalk. I species. Thank you forjoining me on hardtalk. Thank species. Thank you forjoining me on hardtalk. Thank you i species. Thank you forjoining i me on hardtalk. Thank you very much. Hello there. Western scotland was the warmest part of the country on tuesday and it will be again on wednesday. We had cooler, cloudier conditions in some parts of the country, mind you, particularly here in the midlands, and that cloud is still around in the same place at the moment. High pressure still in charge, keeping it dry, but weve got more cloud coming down across the North Sea Thatll push further inland during the day. But we start with some Mist And Fog patches in scotland and northern ireland, then The Sunshine comes out in many areas. Theres the cloud coming in off the North Sea, into eastern england, through the midlands and towards parts of wales. And well have more cloud again across the Northern Isles of scotland, but also, Cloudier Skies in the northeast of mainland scotland, perhaps even into the borders as well. Elsewhere in scotland, The Sun will be out and its going to be warm 26 degrees again around glasgow. And in The Sunshine in northern ireland, 24 celsius. Could make 24 in cumbria as well. Cloudier, cooler weather, though, for northeast england through lincolnshire, the midlands, into east wales, but also for East Anglia. Sunshine more likely across southern counties of england, though in the southeast, its still quite a chilly wind blowing, and weve got all this cloud coming further inland during the evening. So, a lot of cloud, i think, at headingley for the first day of the test match. Its going to be dry. Itll be dry for day two on thursday, but it will feel quite a bit cooler. Now, we saw all the cloud in the North Sea. Its actually on that Weather Front there, very weak. Its pushing inland during wednesday night. A little light Rain Or Drizzle here and there, and by the time we get to thursday morning, its cloudy and damp across wales and the southwest. But the cloud should thin and break. Sunshine comes out across many western parts of the uk, but therell be more cloud blown in by a strong wind off the North Sea into Eastern Scotland for a while, but more especially across eastern parts of england. And here, temperatures may be no better than 16 or 17 degrees. Further west in The Sunshine, it will be warmer, although not quite as warm as wednesday. With that Weather Front out of the way by The End of the week, we still have High Pressure in charge. Still a Cool Breeze coming in around some of those North Sea coasts, and well see some cloud developing, particularly inland across england and wales on friday. More in the way of sunshine for scotland and northern ireland, and the weather should brighten up a bit more across East Anglia and the southeast. But temperatures are going to be near 18 20 celsius at The End of the week. Welcome to newsday reporting live from singapore im karishma vaswani. The Headlines President biden tells g7 leaders hes sticking to his afghan Withdrawal Deadline saying any delay will expose america to terrorist attacks. Each day of operation brings added risk to our troops, but the completion by August 31 depends upon the taliban continuing to cooperate. Six come from six in kabul desperate scenes at the airport as the taliban say no more afghans will be allowed there. Well get analysis on that decision by president biden as the final days of the evacuation approach. In other news. The Paralympic Games open in tokyo with more than 4000 athletes from 160 countries taking part