Hello, and welcome to the programme that brings together leading commentators in the uk with the correspondents who write, Broadcast And Blog for audiences back home from the dateline london. Just one topic for us this week how 20 years of commitment to afghanistan dissolved in a matter of days and what the consequences may be for the people of afghanistan, its neighbours and the rest of the world. Joining us are Janet Daley, columnist with the sunday telegraph; michael goldfarb, host of the podcast, the first Rough Draft of history, and with me in the studio, the guardians china editor, vincent ni. Welcome to all of you. Its good to have you with us. Janet, lets begin with what this means, if we can, a little bit, for the uk. Borisjohnson has been trying to develop an independent Foreign Policy. We know its been pretty clear that this was not a decision that the british particularly wanted to take at this moment. What does this and whats happening In Afghanistan tell us about Britains Influence in washington, its Military Capability and its ability to adopt a leadership role, do you think . Well, its not at all surprising that the foreign policies of the uk and us should be diverging, because theyre the principal members of nato, and nato has been in an existential crisis ever since the Cold War ended. It was devised, if we all remember, as an adversary to the soviet bloc and the communisty bloc, and when communism collapsed and there was no more soviet union to oppose, and within ten years of communism collapsing, we had 9 11 and the rise of islamist terrorism, and so nato became, basically, a counterterrorism outfit, and that was its impetus, that was its raison detre. So thats why biden can say the reason that we were able to pull out of afghanistan, that we wanted to pull out of afghanistan, was that we felt we had solved the Terrorism Problem In Afghanistan. We killed bin laden, wed got rid of alqaeda In Afghanistan, so if we could get out, thats got nothing almost to do with the original conception of nato, which was to act not only as a military adversary, but as an ideological adversary to the soviet union. And now we seem to be in this peculiar vacuum where there is an entirely new global dynamic, and its not ideological at all, its really crudely nationalist. The motives of China And Russia and iran now its not that bloc that is developing that dynamic which will involve afghanistan very heavily, i fear its not the old ideological argument about how should people live. You know, should we have a communist society or a capitalist society . Its much more to do with the emerging totalitarian empires, particularly china, which is really totalitarian capitalism. Its not really a communist society at all. And if nato is to survive, and if the kind of cooperation that weve seen between the uk and the us and other European Allies is to survive, its going to have to come to terms with this entirely new global political dynamic. Michael, george robinson, who was nato� S Secretary General at the start of the century and who was the man who effectively convened the meeting that said, we are going in because one country has been threatened, a nato member, the us, by the attacks on 9 11, so were all threatened, so we alljoin in. He said he thinks the decision by america now has undermined the organisation and raises real question marks about its credibility and alliance. Given what janet was saying there, we are now entering, are we not, a much more dangerous phase in which there isnt a straightforward division and where we Cant Guarantee or rely on the people we thought we could rely on . Michael . Oh, that was for me. Forgive me. This is the problem with not being in the studio. Were gong to get you back as soon as the people in charge tell us we can have you back for covid reasons, but i hope its going to be very soon. Good, good, good. Its interesting you bring up George Robertson. I mean, i think of George Robertson as being someone from the glory days of the Anglo American duopoly, and the thing is, you know, during the blair administration, the things that i can remember back covering this in the early 19905 when the former yugoslavia was falling apart and bosnia was in agony. The ability to marshal nato and the un into crisp action on European Soil was really hard. It was like herding cats, to use a cliche. And now this is something slightly different. I would say that, you know. The reality of this adventure was that the us used Nato And Article 5 was invoked and all of that, but really it was mostly the us, a little of britain, and i can remember doing stories about how germany had been assigned to some part of afghanistan where there was likely to be absolutely no fighting because germany has very, very strong reservations about out of Area Action for historical reasons. Those historical reasons ended 75 years ago, they may have to reconsider in the rest of this century. So what you have to take on board with this is that nato is a multinational, multilateral organisation, but really, its two or three major European Powers and the United States. And on afghanistan, lets be very, very clear the us spent roughly 2 Trillion over the last 20 years in the afghanistan adventure. The united kingdom spent about upwards of 80 Billion. Now, if you do that ratio in a commercial situation, 80 Billion to 2 Trillion you know, as a stockholder you are not going to get a seat on the floor. Nato was a convenient umbrella, but this has always been a United States venture, and frankly, watching some of the scenes in parliament this week, i am amazed that so many people, particularly on the conservative backbenches, you know, forgot that basic fact. That when you put all that money or all those lives into an adventure, basically you are calling the shots. It doesnt matter whether you call yourself a Nato Adventurer or not, this is basically a United States adventure. Vincent ni, lets talk a bit more about afghanistan itself. The question that many will ask, how quickly the government melted away, how quickly the military melted away. Joe biden on Friday Evening in his address to the nation used the phrase, i think he said there were 300 afghan soldiers, 300,000, but actually, nobody actually thinks it was 300,000 because a lot of this was money that was corruptly diverted. However many soldiers, they all vanished very quickly. Why was the afghan government so apparently unloved In Afghanistan . This is the question that everyone is asking. Everyone is doing Soul Searching about why this government collapsed so quickly after 20 years of being backed up by the United States. This is also the question that will come back to hauntJoe Biden in the years to come. I think when it comes to the running of the government, the afghan government doesnt really have a good reputation for being effective, being clean, and this week, there were pictures of the Leaders Nephew posing in dubai, these luxurious lifestyles. These are examples of how this government has failed. Going back to january, talking about the uk and the us, i think this shouldnt come as a surprise. Joe biden won the american presidency under the promise that his Foreign Policy will be benefiting american middle class. So his calculation is if our troops are not directly benefiting the american middle class, why dont we just go out entirely . And there were no votes in the afghan war. Absolutely. And also, he has to think about the legacy, he does not want to be that president associated with the perpetual war In Afghanistan. Lets talk about continuing on the american theme, if we may, michael. Biden, in a sense, decided on friday, to hit back and hit back hard, so we had this thing about no. That it can secure an Airport Hundreds of thousands of miles away and get people home. But thats still ongoing. We will see what securing the airport amounts to. Whether that is the taliban choosing not to attack. And of the practicalities of that, hes clearly trying to use this as a demonstration of american power, and to some extent that that to the american homeland that came from afghanistan has gone. Alqaeda is a much diminished force, and actually if america looks at the places where terrorism could become a threat, there are other places, particularly the middle East And North africa. Exactly. One of the most interesting things that has bubbling up from people who study terrorism and have been doing since, well, for 20 years, since 9 11, is to know today that there have been isis groups, Isis Criticising the taliban for not winning In Afghanistan. Now, they didnt win byjihad, it was handed to them and updates by the United States to simply with zero, they didnt earn their victory, and there is a sense that, to the degree that isis has any presence In Afghanistan, that is something that the taliban may have to deal with in the future. What has happened in the last 20 years, alqaeda was driven into the mountains between afghanistan and pakistan very quickly. It was a very quick victory. People forget that. I dont think any historian from even 500 years from now even 500 years from now will say that if the George Bush Administration had not pursued the alqaeda remnants into the caves and found Osama Bin Laden and completed the mission in December Of 2001 instead of starting to withdraw troops and starting to build up to invade iraq, the whole story that we are talking about Tonight Wouldve been very, very different. And while there has been all this Focus And Concentration on afghanistan and a lot of, you know, troops Tied Down and a lot of money Tied Down, the franchises of isis, alqaeda have grown, metastasized, isis grew out of the Iraq Occupation from people who were imprisoned by the americans in iraq. Now they are across central africa. They are in the horn of africa. And you know, they are also, lets not forget, for the most part, they are no longer operating on american or European Soil. So another thing for americans and europeans to forget. Unfortunately, if you live in those countries, northern parts of nigeria, for example, you cant forget because they are a part of daily life. They are a danger to you every single day. You mentioned that, and its a very good point. Janet, on some of these broader questions that got caught up in the aftermath of the afghan invasion, there was an interesting quote from Joe Biden in which he said the idea that we are able to deal with the rights of women this was when he was being interviewed earlier in the week around the world, by military force, is not rational. But without that Military Presence In Afghanistan, does america have any potential leverage over the regime that will be left there . Probably not. But american policy on this has been incoherent for a long time. When obama was first elected, he said afghanistan was the right war, so we will persevere with the war In Afghanistan and pull out then. Janet is having problems, i will come back to you. Vincent, let me ask you, does this play into chinas hands at all . Because china is about afghanistan. It shares a small border with afghanistan. I think if we come into this question with the mindset of a great power of competition. Americas loss is chinas gain, then probably, yes, but im afraid that duality is much more complex. Chinas very, very nervous about it. You know, china thinks afghanistan is a quagmire, and they look at history being Afghanistans Neighbour for a long time. In the 19th century and early 20th century, it was britain, and then 20th century it was soviet union. Now the 21st century is the United States. Chinese State Media are calling afghanistan the graveyard of empires. So you can see how china actually thinks of this issue. Its not necessarily americas loss and chinas gain. Thats interesting. Afghanistan proved that the British Empire as a concept was no longer Project Power in a way that so comfortably and confidently for a couple of centuries or more. You can certainly say that about how humiliating it was, janet, for the soviet union after having to withdraw from afghanistan. It didnt last very long after that. The soviet unions vietnam. They got bogged down and it cost them enormously in credibility. They had terrible consequences in terms of deaths of their own troops and very great difficulty in withdrawing. Americas policy generally on intervention has been so inconsistent, as i was saying before you lost me, president Obamas Failure to intervene in syria had phenomenally damaging consequences. It damaged Americas Credibility in intervention. So i think without the presence or at least the possibility of a military intervention, america is nowhere in this game and the chinese hegemony, which is definitely on the march and has serious intentions, for the start of at least economic empire building, if not military empire building, it can go unchecked. Michael, both President Obama and therefore biden, who was in the obama administration, and nowJoe Biden, both seem to believe that the us needs to tilt towards those coming in at the very least because of its concerns about china, as janet was saying. How will those countries it seeks to influence in the region, do you think, look at what has happened In Afghanistan and the relatively abrupt departure of the americans . Well, its not relatively abrupt, and thats the first thing. And one hopes that the leaders of the Pacific Region countries dont spend all day on twitter, because thats no way to learn about the world. I wanted to pick up the two things that both Janet And Vincent were saying because in some ways they are related. One terrible thing about american intervention over the last 30 years is that its become just a little bit too much like other forms of american politics. In other words, we went to iraq and that was a Bush Administration thing, so now we are not going to stay there, thats obama. But we will stay In Afghanistan because there is a very strong constituency within the Democratic Party for womens rights, and we would all endorse that, but is the military the way to bring those rights in perpetuity in countries like afghanistan, because womens rights are introduced in all manner of countries all over the world violently, so is the us going to send its armies everywhere to protect women and make sure young girls can get educated . They are not. Whats interesting to me is i remember reading about one of the worlds largest Copper Deposits is In Afghanistan. Its just south of kabul. And the chinese for 15 years have been trying to organise a mine there, and when i first read about it, i remember the article described, you know, chinese Mining Engineers going to visit deposits and passed american soldiers, and i thought, my god, we are paying all this money to provide the security for our biggest economic rivals to go and dig up one of the great deposits of copper, one of the most important raw materials on the face of the earth. Now the chinese, if they want that copper, by the way, the mine has never been open, they are still negotiating with the last afghan government. China will now have to make its own way In Afghanistan, and its part of the developments and i think it will be very interesting to see. As janet was saying earlier, they are kind of a capitalist totalitarian state, and if their relations with countries in africa are anything to go by, they wont care about womens rights too much. Theyjust want to be secure in digging up the copper. Interesting, people know more about that, they talked about this on that programme a few weeks ago, you will find it on previous editions of dateline on the bbc iplayer, we believe that womens rights issue. We can help to achieve something in helping to undermine it, we talked about china, but what about Russia And Iran . Iran is a islamic republic, but. Its a different brand of islam, presuming not comfortable with the way things are going In Afghanistan, and consuming. Russia and iran are both very worried about security issues. As well as china. Ill go back to that later. They will constantly be reminded of their own defeat In Afghanistan decades ago. Its a very short period of time ago, actually, if you look at the long history of afghanistan. But, you know, iran in an economic and security interest, because ultimately they traded quite heavily with each other, but at the same time, iran will be very concerned about the influx of potential refugees. And the stans as well, turkmenistan and the others . Absolutely. This was a hasty withdrawal by the United States, and it will completely change the geopolitical landscape in the region and. Maybe this is time of monsters, but maybe this is also a time of the opportunity for countries to get things right. The Economist Magazine published an interesting article last week in which they said across asia, democracies are under strain. They mentioned a report by the institute at the University Of Gothenburg an annual survey of the strength of democracy. It said that india had gone from a neglected democracy from an elected democracy to the elected. I think of countries like and my entire incoming effects to military coups. I think of countries like myanmar suffering military coups. No, it is really difficult to say what the future holds for asia, in particular. Is another variable, it is like Pandoras Box being opened and In Afghanistan we dont know how this is going to play. They are very cautious, but we are talking about this essentially just one week after the us Withdrawal And History is much longer than that, so youll have to wait and see how things evolve, but bring it back to the copper mine issue, of Course China knows its economic benefits, but if you look at the data before this withdrawal last year, according to chinas commerce ministry, chinese investment, foreign direct investment In Afghanistan, was only 4. 4 million. To get a bit of background. The figures that were being quoted earlier that michael has mentioned. Exactly, there is a bit of a myth about China Investment In Afghanistan. In comparison, pakistans foreign direct investment was 110 Million us dollars, so you see the difference, despite their rhetoric. But i think this rhetoric will also be very useful for china because china want something in return. After all, the Vulcan Corridor was coordinated with this region in china, and beijing has long been concerned about the islamic and uighur militants attacking chinese mainland and, you know, they certainly wouldnt want you. Wouldnt want the taliban to not just provide a shelter for them. Let me go back to michael. Pakistan is an interesting example that vincent mentioned because you could say its relationship with the taliban has been ambiguous, to say the least, and that has had consequences for america, which is regarded by pakistan as an important ally in the region. Should it be rethinking that relationship . I think it should and i hope it does and hope that journalists and historians get to work on trying to get to the core of the relationship between the taliban and pakistan. We have heard bits and pieces over more than 20 years, 25 years, 30 years to the creation of the mujahideen, when they were trying to get the russians out of afghanistan in the late 19805. And it is an absolutely critical thing and i know. I dont know if we have time to talk about refugees, but many, many people will actually go into pakistan. They will never try to get to europe, it is just too far. Many afghans will try in western afghanistan to go across as it did before into iran and, you know, these two countries. I think it would bear United States and European Allies, whether through the eu or britain, going it alone, examining what diplomacy over the next decade should be with iran and pakistan. 30 seconds or so, janet, im afraid, your last thought. The reason they are making what everybody thinks are phony statements about how respectable they are going to be is not just to appeal. To america and nato, it is also to appeal. To russia and china. Russia and china both have their Problems L with islamic minorities i and the taliban politically manipulative and sophisticated enough to know that and they are very useful to China And Russia, particularly china, with their suppliers of lithium. Im sorry to interrupt you, weve got some interference on your line, but we got your point. Vincent, ten seconds, last thought. I think we have to look at the internal dynamics within the taliban route In Afghanistan as well. The taliban might well fight their own domestic insurgents, not just those who are sympathetic with the us, but also those more extreme. Vincent ni, Janet Daley and michael goldfarb, thank you all for being with us, and joining us on dateline. We will be back at the same time next week. Thank you. Goodbye. Hello, hello everyone, i hope youre doing all right. Now, for most of us, yesterday was rather miserable. We sell outbreaks of rain, it was cloudy, we saw those thunderstorms as well but today, i think for the majority, we will see a bit of an improvement. Its not a clear Cut Story in that everyone will see sunny spells and gorgeous weather, we do have some scattered showers around, some of which may be heavy, but tanks to what we see here very little on the satellite image, this isactually an area of High Pressure. The cloud here, this is a Weather Front moving away from us and if i flip it over to the Pressure Chart you can see the high, its building. We will see these Weather Fronts move away from us. They brought some heavy rain this morning but they continue to leave the South East and eastern parts. Now, what you notice on the graphics is west is best, really. Well see bright sunny spells developing here across parts of Northern Ireland and wales southwest england, up through the midlands. Youll notice his line of showers through scotland, down through the north of england, parts of the midlands and towards the South East. Now, to the east of this we hang onto a lot of the low Cloud And Mist and murk in places. Generally quite Monochrome Overhead whereas futher west, brighter. Breezier to the south and top Temperatures Today probably getting to 22 or 23 celsius. In the sunshine feeling pleasant enough, well take it. As we move towards tonight we see further heavy showers for a time. Thundery and slow moving in nature as well, and i think most of these will tend to lose a lot of their energy and fizzle out. The return of some low cloud, Mist And Fog in places. It should be dry and as with last Night Itll be quite a mild and Muggy Night with lows of 1a or 15 celsius. The big picture for the next few days shows this a big area of High Pressure groups across the uk. If you like dry, settled weather, good news because we should plenty of that. We will also tend to see quite a bit of that Cloud Cover and Mist And Murk and quite a Keen Eastern A North easterly breeze and so along eastern coastal parts we are cranking down on temperatures as a result. Further inland and further west, temperatures getting to the low to mid 20s so feeling warm and pleasant enough. High pressure sticks around as we cast an eye onto tuesday and wednesday so we hang onto the dry and settled conditions for the next couple of days. Looking good with some sunshine. Stay safe, see you soon. Hello. This is Bbc News with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. Seven more people died outside Kabul Airport yesterday as thousands try to leave afghanistan. British armed forces Ministerjames Heappey says some calm is now being restored in the area for all that we have seen on the news over the last few days and they have been the most awful images, the reality is that things are flowing now quite well. Former World Leaders criticise the us withdrawal former british prime minister Tony Blair accuses President Biden of following an � imbecilic� Policy And Donald trump attacks mr biden. The west has to understand that when we do something like this, the signal it sends out is one of inconsistency. It is one that says