Champion. Hello. No, dont adjust your set this is the media show on the bbc. But that Theme Tune to news at 10 and the famous bongs are part of our popular culture, along with the high Angle Sweep across london over the rooftops along the thames to meet the face of big ben. All that is part of the iconography of british Television News, but who watches the big Network Bulletins these days . More and more Gen Z Ers and millennials are increasingly moving online to get their news and information. Some older demographics, too, are attracted to more partisan, opinionated platforms. Gb news, im looking at you. Even some politicians are openly disparaging of what they call the mainstream media. So, how can itv� s news at 10 and Channel 4 News, with a soon to be departing john snow, win audiences back . Is it a lost cause in this fractured multimedia age in which we live, or can trust be regained . Well, if anyone� s got an idea, itd better be my next guest deborah turness, The Boss of itn, overseeing news on itv, Channel 4 and Channel Five, reaching around 10 Million people a day and, on top of all that, having to deal with a financial Black Hole that would give anyone nightmares. Deborah turness, welcome to the media show. Its good to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me to be on your show. Lets begin with a quickfire round. Where do you get your Evening News . What do you watch . I watch, of course, the output of my own platforms because thats, of course, a critical part of myjob and i always did anyway. So, i watch Itv News, i watch news at 10 probably a bit more than Evening News because im often still working for the Evening News. Ill catch up on the Itv Hub for that. I watch Channel 4 News, i watch channel 5 news, i also look at Bbc News at 10 as well, and the next day, i will check in on the american bulletins as well because its just a habit ive had over the last decade and its hard to reel wean yourself away from it. Youve got an impressive cv the first Woman Editor of a Network Tv News show in the uk when you took the reins at Itv News. You then moved to america to head up Nbc News, and later become president of nbc, one of americas Big Three networks. What made you want to get into journalism in the first place . You know, when i was about 15, i started volunteering on a local Newspaper Site that was looking for a reporter in local schools to talk about what was going on in the school. It was the Hitching And Stevenage gazette, and i started really enjoying it. And then, i went from there to start doing local Music Reviews of a local Music Venue that often attracted some quite good bands, and realised i could get good access behind the scenes and start doing exciting things, even at the age of16, 17. By the time i was at college, i started making plans to launch a student radio station. I did some articles for the London Student newspaper, and itjust grew from there, really. Then i was given the opportunity for my year abroad, because i did part of my degree in french, to go and do a postgrad Journalism Course at bordeaux university. And i spent a year there, and i was completely smitten and i was completely focused on that as my career path. And from there, i was able to do my work experience, not for the french media, but i went to itn and worked for nothing in the paris bureau, as then was. And that was my kind of Side Door Way into itn. Yeah, you helped john snow, i understand, cover a french president ial election. I did, youre very well informed. It was one of those moments, it was a sliding door moment. I was kind of working for nothing, making the tea, etc, and thenjohn Snows Producer fell ill and he needed somebody to go to the South Of France we were in paris at the time to go coverJacques Chirac� s rally. It was the eve of the election, and he was the Prime Minister and he was standing to be president against francois mitterrand, and he just released the french hostages from beirut that day. Hed used his power as Prime Minister to potentially persuade the french electorate to vote for him. These french hostages were national services and theyd been incarcerated in beirut for a very long time. National News Bulletins every night started with their faces and the number of days that they have been incarcerated. And i went down to southern france to meet up with the crew. I was 21 at the time, 22, and managed to get an exclusive interview with Jacques Chirac in english. John snow made it his lead story, and he pledged to support me and help me get into itn, so he did. Ok, so from blocking off corridors and getting exclusive interviews with french leading politicians, you worked your way up to become head of Itv News in 200a. How different was the Itv Newsroom then, do you think, compared to now . Thats a really great question. I think whats wonderful about the Itv Newsroom is that it continues to be a place of absolute commitment to finding out the truth, to giving up stories that others arent digging up. Theres a real sense of family in that newsroom, and i think if you just look at Robert Moore, hes exclusive his exclusive on the steps of the capitol, in january this year, he was the onlyjournalist in The World who was actually with those Capitol Hill rioters as they went into the capitol building, and he told their story from the inside. Having invested a great deal of time, energy and journalism, he got to know the movement, where they hung out and how they communicated, in a way even american media had not. I think that story alone tells us that the Itv Newsroom of today still embodies those values of really agile journalism. The greatest scoops comes free because theyre and knowing where the story is in following your gut instinct, and thats what robert did and thats what many journalists continue to do today. Thats a rich, Deep Heritage whether you are looking at penny marshalls exclusive at bosnian camps and many before her, thats what Itv News does. Im proud to say that Robert Moore is an old mate of mine, and weve spoken to him here on the media show about that scoop. It was incredible journalism. Indeed, you had several scoops yourself. Including the 2005 exclusive pictures of the capture of the 7 7 london bombers. I wonder how that story came to you. The best scoops you get are the ones that really give you the element of surprise, and i remember that day so vividly. So, obviously, just after the 7 7 horrendous attacks in london, where so many people lost their lives, and everybody was on edge. Then came this news that there was a Raid Happening in these flats in west london. We dispatch our crews and No One knew what was going on, but we were hearing all sorts of sounds and Stun Grenades and military action going on. But nobody knew what was going on. Then we got a call into the News Desk from somebody lives in the flats and had literally a front view of everything happening as the Special Forces came in and raided the flats and arrested the terrorists. And this guy has recorded everything. And i wanted footage, i needed the footage, he wanted money for it, and it had value. So we got into negotiation, and then abc, the american broadcasters, came in and just blew my offer to this guy for his footage out of the water. They put so much money on the table. I basically cold called the Daily Mail. An acquaintance said he couldnt afford this, how can we do this together . Lets mount a joint bid. You can have newspaper exclusive, ill have tv. I think the tapes were thrown out of the back into a garden. My producer how to climb over walls to get the tapes and then we had to transfer them because it was the guys on camera. James, one of our amazing correspondence, turned around in time for the Evening News. This unbelievable scoop. No one had a scrap of picture. It had dominated every Media Platform and around The World, all day and bang, Evening News, headlines exclusive, there is. You talked about Robert Moore saying the best scoops are free. You paid for this one. How much . Theyre not all free, i wont tell you how much i paid. More than i can afford. Six figures . Im not going to go there i cant even remember. Six figures if the Daily Mail were involved. Youd be surprise how low my digits were. I wont talk about the money here. It was definitely worth it. When you ran Itv News, and there is a school of thought that thats the period im not laying all of this at your door, absolutely not but thats the Period Mainstream media Lost Touch with ordinary people. An estrangement that failed to predict the Brexit Vote ultimately, or borisjohnson� s 80 Seat Majority in 2019. It was probably a long time coming up to that decade, but do you think thats fair . Do you think thats when the rubber did hit the road and many of the members of the public felt they wanted their news elsewhere . I felt that Itv News as a brand that has always been in touch with its audience and has been recognised for that connectivity. I think it comes up through its rich roots i think it comes up through its rich roots through the Itv Regional Operation with really considerable Grassroots Journalism across the country. I think that does feed up and into the kind of news that Itv News is. While i do recognise that overall, the media Lost Touch with some members of the audience, i think that impacted Itv News a little less than others, if im honest. Lets talk about the states. You leapt across the pond to america in 2013. Much bigger market, bigger budgets, bigger headaches. For those tuning in who dont know their way around the american media landscape, where would you position Nbc News . Nbc news is impartial. Politically, it doesnt have a point of view. Its interesting because i know youve spoken about the Fairness Doctrine in the us, and im with you in terms of when Ronald Reagan did away with the Fairness Doctrine to make way for right wing talk radio. And this was the rule that meant that all broadcasters, in order to have a licence, they had to give all Points Of View on a particular issue. It changed the landscape and paved the way for Fox News and msnbc and other News Entities with an Approach And Point of view. Even though there isnt the kind of regulation we have in this country, Nbc News invests very heavily to be impartial, to see all sides and does it because thats a point of pride. Thats how theyve always done it. And wont be lent upon and without fear or favour. But thats tricky in the age of Donald Trump. Nbc coincided with the rise of the donald, as it were. That must have been a nightmare to report on this man who the Washington Post reckons lied or made misleading statements more than 30,000 times during his presidency. It was really hard. During the campaign, as he was becoming a force to be reckoned with, the challenge was not only how to not spend your entire Programme Fact checking what he said, but an even greater danger i felt was how not to allow your programme to be consumed by the latest tweets. Because there was news to carry and important issues to cover, and the circus which is high octane in any normal american election cycle, was off the chart. Sorry to interrupt, on reflection, do you think you should have called him out earlier . That coincided with your time when he laid the foundation for this reality of truth, should you and others in america have called him out earlier . Look, i think his rhetoric became more complex and, if you like, darker, as he went on. Did we call him out enough . You arent the only ones. Its hard to be thejudge. But he was good for the business as well. I think that was something. Tuned in. There are some famous quotes around others, not me, and i think it drove on cable channels. Not necessarily on the platforms i was driving, so i was never in a position where i felt i was trying to exploit the Donald Trump phenomenon for ratings gain, and we always try to balance. But i will say i think where we didnt get it right and we talked about it at length after the election was not only to not see him coming, but to have listened to the electorate. I think the problem is that problem still prevails because. The rioters at the capitol that day, its because Nobody Else was listening, Nobody Else was talking to those people. To understand, which is why that story was missed. I think its the exact same circumstances. Theres a sort of lack of learning several years on. A point well put. Were going to shuttle back over to the uk now. Youre the chief of it and, ultimately The Boss of Itv News. Channel 4 news, Channel Five news, how much they did theyjournalism do you get involved with . Do you sign off controversial stories . I have to say, im almost not involved with journalism. Im up here on the fifth floor, and im. Theres a Morning Editorial Briefing at 10 00 10 15 where each of the News Services Talks about what theyve got on that day. Any legal issues, any comms issues. So you let them get on with it, by and large . Yes, i really do. Youre saying that in a way as if you dont believe me go into your business and they will say they cant believe how hands off editorial is. Actually, shes not. We thought she was going to come in and be an interventionist. Ok, how much sharing of resources takes place . So, nobody in The World does Whats Itn does, to run three incredibly distinctive news services. And yet, to do it with an economy of scale at the Back End that makes it cost effective so that you can really focus enough of your budgets on covering the news, investing in destinations. Yes, theres the building, theres the massive engineering infrastructure. Studios and supports, edit vehicles, satellite feeds, travel all that stuff that is noncompetitive that needs to be there. The support mechanisms, the it and all of that. The newsrooms themselves are completely independent under separate editors, separate producers, separate news presenters, the teams in The Field are seperate. Of course, when youre in The Field, you help Each Other out or support Each Other as colleagues. But there is an emphasis on keeping the final product as distinct as possible . 1000 . Absolutely. Were Brothers And Sisters but were frenemies. We talk about what were doing in front of Each Other. That we hold back the Crystal Information because it is competitive. For many, many years, weve actually managed to walk that tight rope and it works, it really, really works. Yeah, i mean, how much of an overlap is there with the audience . Forgive me on this, a Crude Summary might suggest that itv is for traditional viewers, perhaps older audiences. Channel 4 is for younger, left leaning audiences, perhaps more social media savvy. Channel 5 viewers are waiting for the next Pop History Documentary to start. Well, thats quite stereotyping of the audiences i would say. Not too bad, not too bad. Itv uses massive reach second only to the bbc nationally in terms of how many consumers it reaches, both in tv and digital. Serving up a broader. Channel 4 news goes more in depth, as more investigations, it focuses on issues around socialjustice and on foreign affairs, so if thats your cup of tea youre going to go there. And Channel Five has carved out a niche. Serving a tea time audience. Very interested in the scenes of ordinary people. Currently theyre running a really big series continually on Long Covid on how that impacted people. They do more on that than anybody else. Each has its own target audience, but im sure there are some people that watch all three. Yeah, but whats distinctive about Channel 4, as far as the government is concerned, is that its a little bit left wing. Why do you think they think that . I think Channel 4 News must be noted has never once been found against by ofcom in the impartiality rulings. Thats an important point to make. Its a really important point to make. It covers with impartiality. Is it robust . Yes. Is it uncompromising . Yes. They ask sometimes the toughest question sometimes because thats what their brand is all about. And they have an hour to do it, and as you know, in a world of finite, its very hard when you have a half hour to tell The Worlds story. When you have an hour, you just have that extra beat to go deeper and asked the second and third follow up question. But i think youre talking about privatisation, i think, and the move currently is about economics. Its about the longer Term Protection of Channel 4 as the government sees it. Are you confident that you can keep that independence with all the talk of privatisation . Look, we have to. We are. Impartial ourselves on the model for Channel 4, but what were not impartial about is Channel 4 News. It is the most critical part of Channel 4s remit, it is the most recognised and awarded News Programme in britain. It goes out there and does more world changing impactfuljournalism than any other News Programme there is. It reaches more young people on social platforms than any other News Programme. Its incredibly important to the plurality of this country. Its a very important piece of our media landscape. And if Channel 4 is to be privatised, then we will fight for it to be protected. I have no reason to believe the Government Wont protect it. I do believe this government understands and recognises the importance of Channel 4 News. Is it sometimes a thorn in their side . Yes, it is. But i do think they recognise it and i think ourjob is to make sure the journalism speaks for itself. We continue to break exclusives and change The World, and i think we even look to see if we can enhance the remit of a future arrangement. I think there are models out there that point to how you can protect news. I was at comcast when they acquired sky, and they signed up to to a ten Year Guarantee of sky newss budget. And an independent Editorial Board which protects skys editorial independence. I think there are models out there, if were serious about it, so were going to be putting some of that into our submission for dcms consultation. So, how are you able, for instance, to deal with what the telegraph reported last month. 164 point million pound Pension Deficit, how do you deal with that . Well, its no secret that itn has a Pension Deficit, and in fact, the Telegraph Correspondent asked me about that and said doesnt trouble me that ultimately, profit we would generate would go into filling the Pension Deficit. And for me, i think its an overhaul. It� s a noble cause. People are motivated for different reasons. The people at the guardian feel less motivated because of trust . We must work very hard to make sure the Pension Deficit is kept alive. Finally, youve worked in news your whole career. And it is where most people get their news from, programmes like Abc And Channel 4 news. How long do you think that can remain the case, that most people get their news from television and not migrate online or elsewhere . I think the death of Television News has been oft predicted, but it hasnt happened yet. And i think what needs to happen is that great brands, whether they are itv or individual programme brands, will migrate with the audience, they will go where the audience goes, and they must do that, and thats one of the things that i hopefully am here to make happen. As so, i would like to predict the final demise of the bulletin, and the best of them will migrate in different formats. But with those brands and brand values tacked onto new platforms with their audiences. Debra turness, thank you very much indeed for your time today. Thank you very much, thank you, clive. The media show will be back the same time next week. Thanks for listening. Bye bye. Hello, hello everyone. I hope youre doing all right. We have some pretty heavy showers out there across much of the uk. Some of them will is be slow moving, generating a lot of rainfall within a short space of time which in turn could lead to some Surface Water and localised flooding that we also have some spare sunny spells. Quite a breezy or blustery one at times and todays top Temperatures Nothing too exciting, 19 or 20 celsius, maybe a touch higher here or there. As we head through this evening, further showers, a swelling around an area of low pressure. Something dry across parts of england and wales, showers across southern parts, northern ireland, the south of Scotland And North of england seeing some of the lows of around 13 or 1a celsius. There is, however, a bit of a change on the horizon. We are likely to see further showers as we head through the day tomorrow. Again some of these are thundery, heavy, slow moving. Brightening up as we had three towards tuesday. I will keep you posted, stay safe, see you soon. This is Bbc News broadcasting to viewers in the uk and around the globe. Im tim willcox. Our top stories. American bombers launch Air Strikes on taliban fighters whod taken the afghan city of sheberghan, more than 200 are killed. On the final day of the olympics, Lauren Price caps her switch from footballer to boxer with a Middleweight Gold Medal for Team Gb. Another golden moment for Team Gb cyclistjason kenny, making him the countrys most decorated olympian. Greece on fire. Thousands are forced to evacuate their homes in athenian suburbs, and on the countrys second largest island of evia. New changes to the uks Covid Travel Restrictions have come into force