Now on Bbc News its hardtalk with stephen sackur. Welcome to hardtalk. I am stephen sackur. For those of us lucky enough to live in countries where 70 of the us population have been double vaccinated, we may think we can relax our guard but the Pandemic Isnt over and the global Vaccine Rollout still faces enormous challenges. My guest is Professor Sir Andrew pollard, a key figure in the development of the Oxford Astrazeneca Vaccine. Science has offered us tools to beat the virus. Are we making the most of them . Professor sir andrew pollard, welcome to hardtalk. Hi andrew pollard, welcome to hardtalk andrew pollard, welcome to hardtalk. It andrew pollard, welcome to hardtalk. It is hardtalk. Hi there. It is re hardtalk. Hi there. It is pretty much hardtalk. Hi there. It is pretty much seven hardtalk. Hi there. It is l pretty much seven months hardtalk. Hi there. It is pretty much seven months since that historic day when the uk began to roll out of the vaccine you were intimately involved in developing, the Oxford Astrazeneca Vaccine stopping in those seven months, has the impact of that vaccine been what you expected . It has the impact of that vaccine been what you expected . It has over that seven been what you expected . It has over that seven months been what you expected . It has over that seven months been i been what you expected . It hasl over that seven months been the most enormous impact, i am now 1-billion'>1 Billion doses of the vaccine which are out the door, and those vaccines are already having that impact, there is almost certainly now hundreds of thousands of lives that have been saved already this year from the vaccine so the impact is enormous and i think it is probably more than we could ever have hoped for given the predictions from even one year ago about how long it would take to get to this point, and i do think that despite that amazing success, that we are not overall in the Vaccine Programme anywhere like where we should be because of the distribution of vaccines over the course of that seven month period. 50 the course of that sevenmonth eriod. ,. , period. So that would be in our period. So that would be in your book period. So that would be in your book a period. So that would be in your book a fundamental i period. So that would be in your book a fundamental failing of governments Around The World . ~. , of governments Around The World . ~. , world . Well, we are in a Position World . Well, we are in a Position Today World . Well, we are in a Position Today where world . Well, we are in ai Position Today where 4. 2 world . Well, we are in a l Position Today where 4. 2 5 Position Today where 11. 2 5 Billion doses are out there, are being put into peoples arms and that is astonishing and even more astonishing is that number is enough doses to essentially have vaccinated almost everyone who is at risk of severe Disease Or Death in the world, and yet we are in a situation where the vast majority of those doses have gone to the highest income settings around about a third of adults living in high income countries everywhere are vaccinated, but only 1 of people in africa have been vaccinated, who are eligible to be vaccinated, and i think that really shows this failure that there is, where we reach a 1where'>Point Injuly 2021where we could have prevented almost all of the deaths going forward and yet those debts still accumulate every day, today, 9000 people globally will die. It seems to me that is fundamentally an important point and i want to come back to the reasons why in the course of this interview, but right now ijust want course of this interview, but right now i just want to focus on one thing which is very relevant to your Oxford Astrazeneca Vaccine and that is that despite the requirement to get vaccine to people across the world as quickly as possible, we know that there are places in the world, im thinking of germany, australia, which have essentially decided they are not going to use your particular vaccine, does that bring you great Sadness And Regret . I bring you great sadness and re. Ret . ~ bring you great Sadness And Rearet . ~. , , bring you great Sadness And Reiret . ~ ,. , regret . I think as things stand at this moment, regret . I think as things stand at this moment, actually regret . I think as things stand at this moment, actually the l at this moment, actually the vaccine is being deployed amongst those who are at greatest risk of severe disease, so over the last seven months in europe, the group that have largely received the Oxford Vaccine are in fact the oldest adults, who are the ones who most likely to end up in hospital or to die, so that uptake of the vaccine across europe has been enormous and in australia the vaccine is recommended for older adults, in some parts it has been broadened because of the threat of the delta variant. So i dont feel disappointed. Companies have to make their decisions based on the best evidence as they see it, but in The End, i think the doses getting into peoples arms and particularly those at highest risk of disease, and i actually feel a sense of great pride that we got so many doses out there already over the course of this year. There already over the course of this year of this year. And professor pollard. Of this year. And professor pollard. I of this year. And professor pollard. I do of this year. And professor pollard, i do not of this year. And professor pollard, i do not mean of this year. And professor pollard, i do not mean in l of this year. And professor i pollard, i do not mean in any way to belittle the extraordinary scientific achievement that lies behind the Oxford Vaccine, but nonetheless would you acknowledge the truth of the fact that your vaccine has more limitations put upon it in terms of its usage across the world than any other, and a wonder whether you have paused to reflect on whether there are any missteps that you and the team made in oxford that have brought us to that place . I think we have been absolutely laser focused on the absolute duty that we felt to develop the vaccine and get it out there in record time, and we gave the first dose in the clinical trails on the 23rd Of April last year and the vaccine was authorised here in the uk by The End of december so that is just eight by The End of december so that isjust eight months. By The End of december so that is just eight months. And there is just eight months. And there is No Doubt that there are things which could be done differently, it would be great if right at the beginning we had a much greater capacity on our team, a small academic team in oxford, to start with the stopping more funding on Day One rather than having to fund from any different sources to get global trial is under way stopping all of those things could have been better but not a big pharmaceutical Company Care in oxford, we are a group of academics with an absolute goal of trying to produce a not for Profit Vaccine for the world and i think we have managed to do that. But as you say, we have been buffeted by many different issues over the course of this year that made that challenging, but despite that, those doses are out there saving lives today. Saving lives today. They are and i saving lives today. They are and i want saving lives today. They are and i want to saving lives today. They are and i want to be saving lives today. They are and i want to be clear saving lives today. They are and i want to be clear that i saving lives today. They are i and i want to be clear that all the scientific data says quite clearly that your vaccine is highly affect of In Tackling Covid in terms of avoiding hospitalisation and severe symptoms. Nonetheless, just to go back through the history a little bit because they think it is important, not least to learn for the next time that vaccine has to be developed at great speed, do you think you made a mistake, for example, in not including enough elderly people in your initial trailing because that caused some concern about whether your particular vaccine was, you know, in the early days of this crisis, was good at ensuring protection for older people because you hadnt used many and your trails. In because you hadnt used many and your trails. And your trails. In fact we had the same and your trails. In fact we had the same proportion and your trails. In fact we had the same proportion of and your trails. In fact we had the same proportion of older| the same proportion of older adults and our trails as all the other developers. But this pacific issue here was at the time when we had our provisional application, we didnt have enough cases of disease in older adults, and the reason for that is just that as we developed the vaccine, the Safety Manager and Boards View was that we should Boards View was that we should recruit the older adults a little bit later in the trial so by the time of that first License Application they hadnt all had enough time to get the efficacy results around severe disease, that is one reason. And of course the other is that particularly here in the uk but certainly also in our large study in brazil, older adults are rather more cautious here in the pandemic so they have had less exposure to the virus, so it took a bit longer to be able to generate the data. Its not that there was anything fundamentally different about the way that we designed our trails and i would do exactly the same again, the issue, really, is that you need of disease in the pandemic in order to generate sufficient data for that. Its true that across all the developers and numbers of cases in adults is relatively small for the same reasons, but we are absolutely confident from the data that we had from the responses that they were the same and older adults. All the regulators approve the vaccine because they were confident in our data but then there were discussions amongst some of the politicians and recommending bodies who wanted to see more data and of course that is up to them. Indeed. How important, again, on reflection, do you think reputational damage can be . Whether it be the initial comments made by certain politicians in europe about the efficacy of your vaccine when it came to older people, which they then retract it later, or whether it was the Rolling Out of information about Blood Clotting where your vaccine appeared too marginally have more cases of a serious thrombosis Blood Clotting effect than other vaccines, how difficult is it to recover reputational confidence when stories like that hit Social Media and the Information System . Media and the Information S Stem . ~ ~ , system . Well, i think there is no Doubt System . Well, i think there is No Doubt that system . Well, i think there is No Doubt that any system . Well, i think there is No Doubt that any Negativity L No Doubt that any negativity around vaccines, and its not just about the astrazeneca vaccine, because of course it has an impact on all vaccines when there is miscommunication, and it leads to Vaccine Hesitancy and i think one of the real challenges here has been that individual countries have been looking at how they might best deploy vaccines and then trying to prevent, provide communication to their population to explain why they were making those decisions. The actual real problem is not necessarily for those individual countries. If necessarily for those individual countries. Iii individual countries. If i may interject, individual countries. If i may interject, do individual countries. If i may interject, do think some governments, at some points in the crisis of this pandemic, have played politics with vaccines and in particular played politics with the british based Oxford Vaccine . I think there is No Doubt that there are political drivers of some of the comments that are being made stopping the pointer was going to make is the problem with that communication is partly for the citizens of those countries, but even more importantly to me is the Knock On Effect that then has, if a major country makes a negative comment, the impact that has Around The World and particularly in the developing world, where there isnt, for example, the choice of many different vaccines and they give you underlying confidence at one vaccine and there is no choice that means that people dont get vaccinated. And in my mind there is No Doubt that over the course of the last seven months, people have died because they were vaccinated either because they werent offered to vaccine and also because of hesitancy that resulted from comments that people have made in the media over the course of this year. There are clearly people using the internet and Social Media platforms to deliberately so lies and disinformation about vaccines in general and your vaccines in general and your vaccine in particular. Do you think you and others have been effective enough in countering the lies, the fake news, the misinformation . I the lies, the fake news, the misinformation . The lies, the fake news, the misinformation . I think you are absolutely misinformation . I think you are absolutely right, misinformation . I think you are absolutely right, there misinformation . I think you are absolutely right, there is misinformation . I think you are absolutely right, there is no absolutely right, there is No Doubt that there is active amplification of Negative Messaging and its notjust targeting our vaccine but other vaccines as well, and i think this is very sinister development. Some of that is from the anti Vaccine Lobby but also some suggestions that may be political actors involved in this as well. This as well. Russia has been cited in particular this as well. Russia has been cited in particular is this as well. Russia has been cited in particular is the cited in particular is the place that was clearly the source for some of the misinformation about the dangers, as they put it, of your Oxford Vaccine. Has dangers, as they put it, of your Oxford Vaccine. As they sa , i your Oxford Vaccine. As they say. I am your Oxford Vaccine. As they say. I am rrot your Oxford Vaccine. As they say, i am not an your Oxford Vaccine. As they say, i am not an expert your Oxford Vaccine. As they say, i am not an expert in i say, i am not an expert in cyber security, say, i am not an expert in cybersecurity, but say, i am not an expert in cyber security, but i think misinformation has this impact of undermining confidence and that risks peoples lives and so it is a terrible thing that we have experienced here in the course of this year. It is we have experienced here in the course of this year. Course of this year. It is a personal course of this year. It is a personal Toll Course of this year. It is a personal toll i course of this year. It is a personal toll i would course of this year. It is a. Personal toll i would imagine as well because we know that senior scientists working in the field of vaccines and also seen as advisors to governments who have pushed, for example, for lockdowns and for other regulations to try to control the spread of infection, those scientists have been targeted for very serious abuse, sometimes physical as well as abuse delivered online. Thereve been comparisons to scientists working for the nazis and all sorts of absolutely unacceptable abuse. Have you been targeted and what impact, if so, has it had upon you . I impact, if so, has it had upon ou . ,. , you . I mean, there is certainly some of that you . I mean, there is certainly some of that negativity you . I mean, there is certainly some of that negativity and some of that negativity and these sorts of threats are actually made against All Of Us working in this area and it is certainly something i have experienced over the last 25 years but very much more so in the last 12 months. But i think for us in most of our days work, we are coming in and doing our dayjob every day which is very similar to what we always do, and the difference actually is when you put your head out the window and you see the whole world is watching and people are commenting on everything you do. I think because we are so busy and as i say, we have been absolutely determined to stay focused that weve managed to bat off most of this negativity and just keep going, and i think that is absolutely critical here, we have got such an importantjob to do and protecting global health. What protecting global health. What do ou protecting global health. What do you think protecting global health. What do you think is protecting global health. What do you think is going protecting global health. What do you think is going on protecting global health. What do you think is going on here when you see the gatherings of thousands of people who appear all to share conspiracy theories, who appear to believe that you are part of a Malign Network of people, big government and big science trying to do terrible things to individuals across the world, what do you think is going on . One thing very clear to me is that overwhelmingly where i go, people are absolutely pro vaccination. I think the best example of that here in the uk is that as of this morning 88. 7 of people have been vaccinated with at least one dose, which is nearly the whole population of adults who have received a vaccine. That is being repeated in many countries. A lot of the nonvaccinated Around The World are people who so if i dont have access to vaccines or are hesitant rather than actively negative. Although you have made the point there are thousands of people who feel there is a conspiracy, this is really a drop in the ocean, and i think we have a duty here to try and communicate the issues of vaccination for the health, to protect their families, of vaccination for the health, to protect theirfamilies, but also to protect Health Systems Around The World, because of people get sick and they are blocking the health system, we can deliver the rest of healthcare and it has Knock On Effects on the other people in the population. As you say, 1 of the population thus far has been vaccinated. Lets talk about the completion of the task and the completion of the task and the ritual, people in the uk, 70 or more people have been double dose. It is harder to reach the final third or less than a third of adults who are yet to be vaccinated. There is a discussion about whether you nudge them towards vaccination or give them a hearty show by basically saying, you cant take part in many aspects of normal life, unless you have been double jabbed. How do you feel it is best to handle getting over the problem of reaching those most hesitant and reluctant to be jabbed . If you look across different populations there are very different strategies employed to get to the same end. What is so striking here in the uk is that we have, as i said, nearly 90 of eligible people have had one dose, and others are waiting to the point where they are largely due to have their second dose. I dont think there is a big problem here in there is a big problem here in the uk, but really requires some form of coercion. Here, i think we are very much and the situation where good Communication And Access will help the vast majority of people and they will get fully vaccinated. To fully protect the community and a place like the uk, do you believe it would be right to push the vaccination right now to 16 and 17 year olds . The us are vaccinating all children over 12, are vaccinating all children over12, do are vaccinating all children over 12, do you think this is an important part of collective protection . I think at this moment, the key question for teenagers and younger children is whether or not vaccination of those groups has any direct benefit for them. There is probably a subgroup of children at slightly increased risk of disease, and i think they should be included in Vaccine Programmes, but broader Vaccination And Childhood doesnt have so much direct benefit for them. The question is, will it prevent transmission and protect adults . Here, the majority of adults . Here, the majority of adults vaccinated, so it isnt such a big issue to vaccinate children in order to protect adults and reduced transmission, because, festival, children arent the major drivers. Second, most adults are vaccinated, and thirdly we know that the virus can still infect people vaccinated so it doesnt fully prevent transmission in order to do that. The biggest problem i see is the timing. At this moment, there are plenty of people at serious risk of death and severe disease, they need to be vaccinated first. Indeed, that brings us back to the question of an equity which you raise from the beginning of this interview. As you say, and disadvantaged areas, only 1 or so of people have been vaccinated, and yet the Uk And German Governments talk about delivering third boosterjabs delivering third Booster Jabs to delivering third boosterjabs to the population is over 50 come september. The World Health Organisation has said in recent minutes they think it is a bad idea and there should be a bad idea and there should be a moratorium on a boosterjabs until The End of september to ensure that the focus is on getting first jabs ensure that the focus is on getting firstjabs in arms in the developing world. What is your view . Irate the developing world. What is your view . The developing world. What is ourview . ~. , what is your view . We are in an improving what is your view . We are in an improving situation. What is your view . We are in an improving situation. We what is your view . We are in an improving situation. We have i improving situation. We have just over 4 Billion doses of vaccines out there. By The End of the year it should be more than double that number. There is a real possibility that if we make sure those doses are going equitably Around The World that we can still achieve, this year, that goal of protecting most of those people at risk. If we now divert those doses to giving boosters this year, then that really further enhances this inequity. We end up with some people having three doses and in many parts of the world are at zero doses. That, to me, seems an unacceptable way when you take a global perspective to be acting. Booster jabs, to be acting. Boosterjabs, in your view, are a dangerous diversion from the bigger challenge of getting people across the world vaccinated . Ii people across the world vaccinated . People across the world vaccinated . Vaccinated . If we were in a position vaccinated . If we were in a position where vaccinated . If we were in a position where we vaccinated . If we were in a position where we were i vaccinated . If we were in a I Position where we were seeing significant breakthroughs amongst vaccinated individuals, and of hospitals were filling up and of hospitals were filling up again with vaccinated individuals, then i think that as a very different situation. We are not in that position. All of the Effectiveness Data Around The World shows remarkable protection against severe Disease And Death by the vaccines. We dont know whether that protection will wane. I think whats on, governments are doing are looking at the question may be a Vaccine Protection will wane over this winter and we ought to, as a cautious approach, give a third dose now to make sure that doesnt happen. But, as i say, we have no scientific evidence that it we have no scientific Evidence Thatitis we have no scientific evidence that it is needed, and it does deny other people and other countries from getting the dose. Lets and where we began with your view that the extraordinary achievement of the vaccine has in some ways been let down by the failure to get it to the people who need it in the poorer parts of the world. If that continues, you say it you hope it will be addressed, but if it continues would this be a profound moral failing of everybody involved and the vaccine process, including the politicians, the scientist, and All Of Us All Of Us who live in the advantaged, richer parts of the world . World . I world . I think the World Health Organization position is that the one that looks at this from a global perspective. The moral failure that you mentioned is to allow people to die Around The World while we vaccinate people who are at extremely low risk of serious illness or death. I think we are looking at that today. We are already at that today. We are already at a position where we could have prevented most of the global debts going forward, and yet they are going to continue day by day and it is currently thatis day by day and it is currently that is experience globally. So, yes, there is a moral failure of a global political joint process, which we just dont seem to have we have it from the public health perspective, and i think most scientists are signed up to that view because it protects us, it provides Health Security by reducing the risk of new variants arriving in other countries. It also protects our economy, because of the whole world is opened up because they are no longer worried, then that drives the economy for All Of Us. There are so many reasons why our Focus Today should be on getting vaccines to those vulnerable and the rest of the world, and do not do so is, i think, an absolute tragedy for leadership. Professor sir andrew pollard, i thank you forjoining me. Thank you. Hello. Low pressure moving in on Thursday Wont be out of the way until next tuesday. In greece, a severe extreme heatwave is continuing. There are wildfires. Temperatures by day have topped out at 47 degrees, and overnight this is an overnight temperature on the island of crete into the mid 30s. Now, there is a bit of relief on the way towards the South East of europe in the coming days as temperatures will come down a bit. Ours are about to go down a bit, too. Low pressure is coming into the uk. The heavy downpours, there have been a few so far this week, are about to become more widespread again. This is how we start off on thursday morning, already some showers affecting Northern Ireland and western scotland. It will turn much wetter through Northern Ireland in the morning, but across the western side of the uk, even though you may start dry, rain will move in through the day. Thats going to extend eastwards to those areas still having some sunny spells even into the first part of the afternoon. Now, behind this main band of rain, Brightening Up in Northern Ireland, but here some slow moving Thundery Downpours bring a risk of Flooding And Disruption into the afternoon and evening. And temperatures still across eastern parts rising into the low 20s. All areas, though, Seeing Freshening Winds Gusting 30 110 mph. Windiest around Irish Sea coasts, blowing in plenty of showers as we go on through Thursday Night into friday morning. Some longer spells of rain in scotland, and temperatures as friday starts around the mid teens. Well, that low pressure right across us on friday, and there will be further heavy showers around through the central belt, southern scotland, Northern Ireland, northern england, north wales, parts of the midlands. This is where there is a risk of some slow moving, prolonged, even torrential downpours. Thundery, too, theyll bring a risk of Flooding And Disruption. Maybe not too many showers running across parts of southern england, but that could well change on saturday. Another set of weather fronts coming our way from the south just pepping up the downpours across southernmost parts of the uk. Whereas elsewhere, its a similar story. Therell be some heavy and Thundery Downpours around. It is worth bearing in mind, though, there will also be some sunny spells, not wet all the time. There will be brighter, drier moments in between these downpours. By saturday, many places with temperatures back down into the teens. Showery picture continuing on sunday and monday. By tuesday, that low Pressure System is out of the way. It will turn drier for a time, though another low moves in later next week. This is Bbc News. Im Sally Bundock with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and Around The World. Britain changes its international travel rules, making journeys to the uk easier for fully vaccinated passengers. 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