Figure in the development of the oxford astrazeneca vaccine. Science has offered us tools to beat the virus. Are we making the most of them . Professor sir andrew pollard, welcome to hardtalk. Hello, there. It is pretty much seven months since that historic day when the uk began the Roll Out of the vaccine you were intimately involved with developing. That is the oxford astrazeneca vaccine. In those seven months, has the impact of that vaccine been what you expected . Well, there has over that seven months been the most enormous impact. I mean, theres now A Billion doses of the Oxford Vaccine which are out the door. And those vaccines are already having that impact. Theres almost certainly now hundreds of thousands of lives that have been saved already this year from the vaccine. So the impact is enormous, and i think its probably more than we could ever have hoped for, given the predictions from even a year ago about how long it would take to get to this point. But i do think that, despite that amazing success, that were not overall in the Vaccine Programme anywhere like where we should be because of the distribution of vaccines being so inequitable over the course of the last seven month period. So, that would be, in your book, a fundamentalfailing what, of governments Around The World . Well, we are in a Position Today where 4. 25 billion doses across all the developers are out there, being put into peoples arms. And thats astonishing. And even more astonishing is that number is enough doses to essentially have vaccinated almost everyone who is at risk of severe Disease Or Death in the world. And, yet, were in a situation where the vast majority of those doses have gone to the highest income settings. About a third of adults living in high income countries everywhere are vaccinated, but only i of people in africa have been vaccinated who are eligible to be vaccinated. And i think that really shows this failure that there is, where we reach a point injuly, 2021, where we could have prevented almost all of the deaths going forward. And, yet, those deaths still accumulate every day. Today, 9,000 people globally will die. It seems to me that is a fundamentally important point, and i want to come back to the reasons why in the course of this interview. But, right now, ijust want to focus on one thing which is very relevant to your oxford astrazeneca vaccine, and that is that, despite the requirement to get vaccines to people across the world as quickly as possible, we know that there are places in the world im thinking of germany, australia which have essentially decided theyre not going to use your particular vaccine. Does that bring you great Sadness And Regret . Well, i think, as things stand at this moment, actually, the vaccine is being deployed amongst those who are at greatest risk of severe disease. So, you know, over the last seven months, in europe, the group who have largely received the vaccine are in fact the oldest adults, who are the ones who are most likely to end up in hospital to die. So, actually, the impact of the vaccine across europe has been enormous. And, similarly, that is the Case Today in australia, where the vaccine is recommended for older adults. In some parts, thats even been broadened because of the threat of the delta variant. So i dont feel disappointed. Countries have to make their decisions based on the best evidence as they see it. But, in The End, i think the doses, the important thing is that doses get into peoples arms, and particularly those at highest risk of disease. And i actually feel a sense of great pride that weve got so many doses out there already, over the course of this year. And, professor pollard, i do not mean in any way to belittle the extraordinary scientific achievement that lies behind the Oxford Vaccine. But, nonetheless, would you acknowledge the truth of the fact that your vaccine has more limitations put upon it in terms of its usage across the world than any other . And i wonder whether youve paused to reflect on whether there are any missteps that you and the team made in oxford, which have brought us to that place . Well, i think weve been absolutely laser focused on the absolute duty that we felt to develop the vaccine and get it out there in record time. And, you know, we gave the first dose in clinical trials on April 23rd last year, and the vaccine was authorised here in the uk by The End of december. So thats just eight months. You know, theres No Doubt that there are things which could be done differently, it would be great if, right at the beginning, we had much greater capacity and a team, a small academic team in oxford, to start with much bigger trials than we could. If we had more funding on Day One rather than having to fund from many different sources to get global trials under way. All those things could have been better, but were not a big Pharmaceutical Company here in oxford. Were a group of academics with an absolute goal of trying to produce a not for Profit Vaccine for the world. And i think we managed to do that. But, as you say, i mean, we have been buffeted by many different issues over the course of this year that have made that challenging. But, despite that, those doses are out there saving lives today. They are. And i want to be clear that all the scientific data says quite clearly that your vaccine is highly effective in tackling covid, in terms of avoiding hospitalisation and severe symptoms. Nonetheless, just to go back through the history a little bit, because i think its important not least to learn for the next time that a vaccine has to be developed at great speed. Do you think you made a mistake, for example, in not including enough elderly people in your initial trial . Because that caused some concern about whether your particular vaccine was, in the early days of this crisis, good at ensuring protection for older people, because you hadnt used many in your trials. In fact, we have the same proportion of older adults in our trials as all the other developers. But the specific issue here was at the time when we had our provisional application, we didnt have enough cases of disease in older adults. And the reason for that is just that, as we developed the vaccine, the Safety Monitoring Boards View was that we should recruit the older adults a little bit later in the trial. So by the time of that first licence application, they hadnt all had enough time to get the efficacy results around severe disease. So thats one reason. And of course, the other is that, particularly here in the uk, but certainly also in our large study in brazil, older adults are rather more cautious during the pandemic. And so they have had less exposure to the virus. So it took a bit longer to be able to generate the data. So its not that Theres Anything fundamentally different about the Way Weve designed our trials, and i would do exactly the same again. The issue really is that you need waves of disease in the pandemic in order to generate sufficient data for that. Its true that across all the developers, the numbers of cases in older adults is relatively small for the same reasons. But, you know, we were absolutely confident from the data that we had from the immune responses that they were the same in older adults. All the regulators approved the vaccine across all ages because they were confident in our data. But then there were discussions amongst some of the politicians or recommending bodies who wanted to see more data. And of course, thats up to them. Indeed. How important, again, on reflection, do you think reputational damage can be, whether it be the initial comments made by certain politicians in europe about the efficacy of your vaccine when it came to older people, which they then retracted later, or whether it was the Rolling Out of information about Blood Clotting, where your vaccine appeared to marginally have more cases of a serious thrombosis, Blood Clotting effect than other vaccines. How difficult is it to recover reputational confidence when stories like that hit Social Media and the Information System . Well, i think theres No Doubt that any negativity around vaccines, and its notjust about the astrazeneca vaccine, because, of course, it has an impact on all vaccines when there is miscommunication, and it leads to vaccine hesitancy. And i think one of the real challenges here has been that individual countries have been looking at how they might best deploy vaccines and then trying to provide communication to their population to explain why they were making those decisions. The actual real problem is not necessarily for those individual countries. But if i may interject, do you think some governments, at some points in the crisis, this pandemic, have played politics with the vaccines, and in particular played politics with the british based Oxford Vaccine . Well, i think theres No Doubt that there are political drivers of some of the comments that are being made. The point i was going to make is the problem with that communication is partly for the citizens of those countries. But even more importantly to me is the Knock On Effect that then has. If, you know, a major high Income Country makes a negative comment, the impact that has Around The World and particularly in the developing world, where there isnt, for example, the choice of many different vaccines. And if you undermine confidence in one vaccine and theres no choice, it means people dont get vaccinated. And in my mind, there is No Doubt that over the course of this last seven months, the people have died because they werent vaccinated, either because they werent offered the vaccine and also because of hesitancy that resulted from comments that people have made in the media over the course of this year. There are clearly people using the internet and Social Media platforms to deliberately sow lies and disinformation, about vaccines in general and your vaccine in particular. Do you think you and others have been effective enough in countering the lies, the fake news, the misinformation . Well, i think youre absolutely right. Theres No Doubt that there is active amplification of Negative Messaging and its not just targeting our vaccine, but other vaccines as well. And i think this is a very sinister development. Some of that is from the anti vaccine lobby, but theres also some suggestions that there may be political actors involved in this as well. One Eu Agency cited russia in particular as a place which was clearly the source for some of the misinformation about the dangers, as they put it, of your Oxford Vaccine. Yeah, as i say, i mean, im not an expert in cybersecurity, but i think misinformation has this impact of undermining confidence, and that risks peoples lives. And so its a terrible thing that weve experienced during the course of this year. Its a personal toll, i would imagine, as well, because we know that senior scientists working in the field of vaccines and also seen as advisers to governments who have pushed, for example, for lockdowns and for other regulations to try to control the spread of infection, those scientists have been targeted for very serious abuse, sometimes physical, as well as abuse delivered online. There have been comparisons to scientists working for the nazis and all sorts of absolutely unacceptable abuse. Have you been targeted and what impact, if so, has it had upon you . Well, i mean, theres certainly some of that negativity and these sorts of threats are actually made against all of those of us working in this area. And that certainly is something ive experienced over the last 25 years, but very much more so in the last 12 months. But i think for us, in most of our days� work, is that we know were coming in and doing our dayjob every day, which is very similar to what we what we always do. And the difference actually is when you put your head out the window and you see the whole world is watching and people are commenting on everything you do. I think because were so busy and as i say, weve been absolutely determined to stay focused that weve managed to bat off most of this negativity and just keep going. And i think thats absolutely critical here. Weve got such an important job to do in protecting global health. What do you think is going on here, when you see the gatherings of thousands of people who appear, all, to share conspiracy theories, who appear to believe that you are part of a Malign Network of people, big government and big science, trying to do terrible things to individuals across the world . What do you think is going on . Well, i mean, i think one thing that is very clear to me is that overwhelmingly, where i go, people are absolutely pro vaccination. And i think the best example of that here in the uk is that, as of this morning, 88. 7 of people have been vaccinated with at least one dose. So, thats nearly the whole population of adults who have received a vaccine. And that is being repeated in many countries. A lot of the non vaccinated Around The World, the people who so far dont have access to vaccines or are hesitant, rather than are actively negative. So, although you make the point that there are thousands of people who feel theres a conspiracy, this is really a drop in the ocean of those who are pro vaccine. And i think weve got a duty here to, for many of those individuals, to try and communicate the issues about the importance of vaccination for their health, to protect theirfamilies, but also to protect Health Systems Around The World. Because if people get sick and theyre blocking the health system, we cant deliver the rest of health care. It has Knock On Effects there on the other people in the population. So, lets talk about where we go from here. And lets, before we get to those parts of the world where, as you say, i or so of the population has thus far been vaccinated, lets talk about the completion of the task in the rich world, countries like the uk, where, as you say, 70 of people have been double jabbed. Its proving much harder to reach the final third or less than a third of adults who have yet to be vaccinated. Theres a discussion about whether you nudge them towards vaccination or whether you give them a hearty shove by basically saying, you cant take part in many aspects of normal life unless you have been double jabbed. How do you feel it is best to handle getting over the problem of reaching those most hesitant and reluctant to be jabbed . Well, i think if you look across different populations there are very different strategies being employed to achieve the same end. What i think is so striking here in the uk is that we have, as i said, nearly 90 of people who are eligible have had at least one dose. And those who havent had their second dose yet are still waiting to reach the point where they do have their second dose, largely. And so i dont think that there is a big problem here in the uk that really requires some form of coercion. I think here were very much in the situation where good Communication And Access will help the vast majority of people, and will end up being vaccinated. But to fully protect the community in a country like the uk, with the numbers youve described, do you believe it would be right now to push the vaccination to 16 and I7 Year olds . Indeed, in the us, they now are vaccinating all children over 12. Do you think that is an important part of collective protection . Well, i think at this moment, the key question for teenagers and younger children is whether or not vaccination of those groups has any direct benefit for them. And theres probably are a subgroup of children who have just slightly increased risk of severe disease. And definitely i think they should be included in Vaccine Programmes. But broader vaccination in childhood doesnt have so much direct benefit for them. So the real question is, will it prevent transmission and protect adults . And in a country like the uk, where the vast majority of adults are vaccinated, its not such an important issue to vaccinate children in order to protect the adults and reduce transmission, because, first of all, children are not the major drivers of transmission. Secondly, most adults are vaccinated. And then thirdly, we know the virus can still infect people who are vaccinated. So it doesnt fully prevent transmission, in order to do that. The biggest problem i see with vaccinating children is actually the timing, that at this moment theres plenty of other people who are at serious risk of death and of severe disease. Those need to be vaccinated first. Yes. And indeed, that brings us back to the question of inequity, which you raised from the very beginning of this interview. As you say, in the disadvantaged parts of the world, only i or so of people have been vaccinated. And yet the uk government, the german government is talking about delivering Third Boosterjabs to its over 50s Population come september. Now, the who hasjust, in the last few minutes, said they think thats a bad idea. There should be a moratorium on boosterjabs till at least The End of september, to ensure that the focus is on getting firstjabs into arms in the developing world. Whats your view . Well, we are in an improving situation. Weve got, as i mentioned before, just over Four Billion doses of vaccines out there. And, by The End of the year, it should be more than double that number. So there is a real possibility that if we make sure those doses are going equitably Around The World so we can still achieve, this year that goal of protecting most of those people who are at risk. If we now divert those doses to giving boosters this year, then that reallyjust further enhances this inequity. We end up with some people with three doses, where many parts of the world were still at zero doses. And that, to me, really does not seem an acceptable way, if you take a global perspective, to be acting. So boosterjabs, in your view, are a dangerous diversion from the bigger challenge of getting people right across the world vaccinated . Well, i think if we were in a position where we were seeing significant breakthrough amongst vaccinated individuals and if the hospitals were filling up again with vaccinated individuals, then i think that is a very different situation. Were not in that position. All of the Effectiveness Data Around The World is still showing remarkable protection against severe Disease And Death by the vaccines. We have to keep looking. We dont know whether that protection will wane. And i think what some governments are doing is looking at this question of, well, maybe the Vaccine Protection will wane over the course of this coming winter, and we ought to, as a cautious approach to give a third dose now to make sure that doesnt happen. But as i say, we have no evidence scientifically at the moment that thats needed. And it does deny people in other countries getting that dose. Lets end where we began, with your view that the extraordinary achievement of the vaccine has in some ways been let down by the failure to get it to the people who need it in the poorer parts of the world. If that continues, you say you hope it will be addressed, but if it continues, would that be a profound moral failing of everybody involved in the vaccine process, including the politicians, the scientists and All Of Us, All Of Us who live in the advantaged, the richer parts of the world . Well, i think the World Health Organization position is the one which actually looks at all of this from a global perspective. The moral failure that you mentioned is to allow people to die Around The World, whilst we vaccinate people who are at extremely low risk of serious Disease Or Death, or even zero risk. And i really think that we are looking at that today. As i said, we already are at a position where we could have prevented most of the global deaths going forward. And yet those are going to continue day by day in this current wave that is being experienced globally. So, yes, there is a moral failure and its a failure of a global, political, joined up process, which we just do not seem to have. We have it from a public health perspective. And i think most scientists are also signed up to that view because it protects us. It provides Health Security by reducing the risk of new variants arising in other countries. It also protects our economy, because if the whole world is opened up because they are no longer worried about the pressure on their health system, then that drives the global economy and its good for All Of Us. There are so many reasons why our Focus Today should be on getting vaccines to those vulnerable in the rest of the world. To not do so is, i think, is an absolute tragedy for leadership. Professor sir andrew pollard, i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. Thank you. Hello. Our temperatures so far this week have topped out in the comfortable low 20s. In greece, a severe extreme heatwave is continuing. There are wildfires. Temperatures by day have topped out at 47 degrees, and overnight this is an overnight temperature on the island of crete into the mid 30s. Now, there is a bit of relief on the way towards the South East of europe in the coming days as temperatures will come down a bit. Ours are about to go down a bit, too. Low pressure is coming into the uk. The heavy downpours, there have been a few so far this week, are about to become more widespread again. This is how we start off on thursday morning, already some showers affecting Northern Ireland and western scotland. It will turn much wetter through Northern Ireland in the morning, but across the western side of the uk, even though you may start dry, rain will move in through the day. Thats going to extend eastwards to those areas still having some sunny spells even into the first part of the afternoon. Now, behind this main band of rain, Brightening Up in Northern Ireland, but here some slow moving Thundery Downpours bring a risk of Flooding And Disruption into the afternoon and evening. And temperatures still across eastern parts rising into the low 20s. All areas, though, Seeing Freshening Winds gusting 30 a0 mph. Windiest around Irish Sea coasts, blowing in plenty of showers as we go on through Thursday Night into friday morning. Some longer spells of rain in scotland, and temperatures as friday starts around the mid teens. Well, that low pressure right across us on friday, and there will be further heavy showers around through the central belt, southern scotland, Northern Ireland, northern england, north wales, parts of the midlands. This is where there is a risk of some slow moving, prolonged, even torrential downpours. Thundery, too, theyll bring a risk of Flooding And Disruption. Maybe not too many showers running across parts of southern england, but that could well change on saturday. Another set of weather fronts coming our way from the south just pepping up the downpours across southernmost parts of the uk. Whereas elsewhere, its a similar story. Therell be some heavy and Thundery Downpours around. It is worth bearing in mind, though, there will also be some sunny spells, not wet all the time. There will be brighter, drier moments in between these downpours. By saturday, many places with temperatures back down into the teens. Showery picture continuing on sunday and monday. By tuesday, that low Pressure System is out of the way. It will turn drier for a time, though another low moves in later next week. Welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, im karishma vaswani. The Headlines Anger on the steets of beirut. Police and protestors clash on the anniversary of the explosion that destroyed much of the lebanese capital. You can see the letter on the street and this Police Car which is completely smashed. On the other side there is a brick that has been thrown through the window. It gives you a sense of how angry people here are. The sprinter from belarus who refused to return home for her own safety has landed in poland. Final arguments are heard in a candian court, as america attempts to extradite huaweis Chief Financial Officer to face charges of bank fraud. And, im Sarah Mulkerrins in tokyo on day 13 of the olympic,