Now on bbc news, Dateline London with shaun ley. Hello and welcome to the programme, which brings together leading commentators in the uk with the foreign correspondents who write, Blog And Broadcast to audiences back home from the Dateline London. This week the unvaccinated become the unloved, and is democracy bound to wither in the arid lands of North Africa and The Middle East . Let me introduce our Dateline Panel this evening. Mina Al Oraibis Family originated in iraq. Shes Editor In Chief of the national in abu dhabi. Ned temko, from the christian science monitor, was born in the United States but has spent much of his Career Reporting from the uk. With me in the studio, the british political Commentator Steve richards, who hosts the podcast rock � n� roll politics. Welcome to you all. Lovely to have you with us this evening. Now, a Pandemic Of The Unvaccinated the phrase used by us president Joe Biden on thursday illustrates a growing frustration among political leaders in countries fortunate enough to have stocks of covid vaccine that this hasnt been the Escape Hatch from Pandemic Theyd hoped for. In france, President Macron has told the unvaccinated they wont be allowed into restaurants. In the uk, they could be excluded from football stadia. President biden announced that employees of the federal government who decline to be vaccinated will have to wear masks, keep physically distanced from their colleagues and be tested once or twice a week. Earlier, hed praised the Republican Governor of alabama Kay Ivey. Shed said its time to start blaming the unvaccinated folks that are letting us down. Ned, less carrot, plenty of stick around, and its not just in the United States. What do you think that tells us . I think, as you said earlier, its a window into the huge frustration that governments in countries that are lucky enough to have stocks of vaccine and the ability to put vaccine into arms, has so far fallen far short of the number of vaccinations that they wanted to administer, and they feel they need to administer. And the other thing it reflects is, quite frankly, a new urgency because there have been reports, even in the last 2a hours, based on an in House Assessment by the centers for Disease Prevention in the United States, suggesting that this Delta Variant The One that originated in india but is now prevalent pretty much all over the world is not only more transmissible, its much, much, much more transmissible than had been assumed and its also capable of infecting and being passed on by fully vaccinated people almost as easily as by those who have not been vaccinated. So i think theres a sense of the clock ticking, and i think thats what youre seeing. And i think we will see more and more efforts by governments to try and ramp up the number of vaccinated people. Steve, Michael Gove, whos one of the british cabinet ministers, said this week people who arent vaccinated are selfish. Is there a danger that this desire to push people towards vaccination could actually ultimately be counterproductive . Not least in the politics in the Uk Case of the conservative party, where theres big pressure on borisjohnson to lift regulations, to lift rules, to let freedom flourish . No. I mean, i think, first of all, what Michael Gove said really is a statement of the obvious. And there might be a backlash with a small proportion of the well, maybe a biggish proportion of the tory parliamentary party, but not elsewhere in the house of commons. So there are two separate issues the politics of it within the conservative party, and what needs to be done to vaccinate younger people who are reluctant. And what needs to be done and here, even the libertarianish Boris Johnson seems to be in agreement is they need to get those vaccinations. Now, here the government is sort of doing it by saying, if you dont, you might have to show a Vaccine Passport in nightclubs and so on. There needs to be more of that, clearly, as we are seeing elsewhere in France And Other Places the United States with talk of 100 to get vaccinated to make sure we dont get an epidemic of the unvaccinated. So it seems to me he was making an absolutely straightforward observation. The question is now whether further measures are needed, irrespective of the mood of a percentage of the conservative parliamentary party. Mina, i suppose one argument they can use to push back against those who say come on, you know, the frustration of all these restrictions is the impact its had on the economy, is to point to the imf report this week which suggested economic recovery and the strength of it is dependent on vaccination and how quickly you can move back to normality. Absolutely. Its clear now that vaccines are integral to economic. Recovery, in addition to continuing with mask wearing. Its been interesting to see. Certain countries that had high levels of vaccines making i decisions to take off masks and are now saying no, were actually going to need them. | one thing to keep in mind is the picture is still not. Clear how were going to get out of the pandemic, but what is clear is vaccines. Can bring down the numbers. The imfs report was also quite interesting because it showed i the disparity between the countries that cant afford to have these vaccines fast| enough and those that can. So, advanced economies that have, On Average, l 40 of their populations vaccinated are recovering much quickerthan emerging. Economies that, frankly, have not been able to vaccinate more than 10 to 15 of their populations. So, in a way, this idea that we can ignore the vaccines and see an economic. Recovery is impossible. Yeah, the figures i think, for the second quarter in the us 6. 5 sounds very healthy, but it had been predicted quarter two was going to be 8. 5 . Whether that is directly linked to vaccines is for others to debate. But ned, weve now mentioned Michael Gove talking about shame. We had Kay Ivey, Republican Governor, talking about blame. Does this kind of language give any cause should it give us any cause for unease, do you think, we are going to turn the unvaccinated into some sort of Social Pariahs . Well, im with steve in the sense that in some sense this is a statement of the blindingly obvious, that i think its now such a broad consensus that no matter what else we need to get out of this pandemic, vaccination as broadly as possible is part of it. I think the more interesting question it perhaps raises and its a debate thats ongoing in the United States is whether that kind of language will work. In other words, the key is how do you get vaccine hesitant people to get jabbed 7 and its a mix now of financial inducements and various other things. My suspicion is that particularly with new information coming about the Delta Variant, i think we may see a shift in the messaging in some countries away from presenting vaccination as something you do for someone else the way Kay Ivey said, you are letting us down and hone in on it a little bit like the anti smoking campaigns of recent years as a matter of self interest, simple self interest, because the vaccinations may or may not be effective against the Delta Variant in terms of transmission, but they remain and Cross Fingers they will remain very, very effective in keeping you out of the hospital and keeping you from dying of this illness. And i think that will increasingly be core to the public messaging about this. Steve, we saw a bit of that in Northern Ireland where they have a lower rate of vaccination than other parts of the uk and health chiefs saying, this could have consequences if we are getting high hospitalisations now, it might mean other Treatments Cant be provided. Thats sort of playing to that instinct, isnt it . Because i might need that treatment, my mum might need that treatment, my friend might need it maybe i do need to get vaccinated. Yeah. I mean if, to return to Michael Gove, people are being selfish, appeal to selfish instincts might be one way of encouraging them to take the vaccine. But i think there are limits to exhortation when faced with resistance. Its very interesting talking about smoking. For years and years, the Warning Smoking kills and all the rest of it, but it was actually a Smoking Ban that stopped people from smoking in pubs and restaurants and public transport. It did take that extra, and it might have to take more forms of compulsion is a terrible word to use because it immediately sounds so negative, but exhortation might not be enough with some young people. And then what do you do . And there are many other levers to pull, including more extensive use of Vaccine Passports and all the rest of it. Now, my sense is that might be necessary, that words alone might not do it given it is so obvious it makes a difference and yet, there is this resistance, and its quite a significant level of resistance amongst some younger people. Steve, thanks very much. Thank you to all of you on that. Now, covid unrest lies behind the political turmoil which has roiled tunisia, The One country where multi Party Democracy appeared to have established Deep Roots during the arab spring. President Kais Saied suspended the legislature and fired the Prime Minister sunday. His actions a coup, some said followed a day of Mass Street Protests in defiance of the pandemic lockdown. Mina, whats gone wrong in tunisia, and is the president s response proportionate, do you think . Whats going on in tunisia has been going on for several months now, and some people would say even years. The Covid 19 response has, in large part, been laggingl behind What Peoplel had been expecting. Youve had deaths On Average reaching 180 per day of a population i of only 11 million. Youve hospitals turning people away because they have suffered. And this has been happening primarily in the last three. Of four months, so its not. As soon as the pandemic hit, when many countries Around The World struggled to deal i with the pandemic, this. Is actually more than a year after the pandemic was declared, the country. Is still struggling. In addition to that, there is a real problem of corruption inside of tunisia. The president himself has said youre looking at around 4. 6i billion thats been swindled away. I and so Peoples Day to day lives have not improved since the revolution more than a decade ago and Covid 19, of course, exacerbated it. Now, what the president has| done, he said would suspend parliament for 30 days the first week is about to end of that 30 days and then has said we must work at fighting i corruption, gettingi better governance. And in general, people| in Tunisia Support that, and they feel tired because the Parliament And Government has largely been spending most of its time squabbling amongst itself. So theres a sense that we need somebody to bring all these elements together and make it work. | however, what makes tunisia a Success Story is also because it is a pluralistic society, and thats important. In addition to the fact that you have strong trade unions, you have strong Civil Society that actually even predates i the revolution of a decade ago and those actors are still playing a prominent role and have said they willl watch what has happened but, frankly, havent come out in support of the government, which means that there is a problem with the former not only prime Minister But Parliament and all the Make Up of the political system. So Civil Society is holding i its breath, but also saying we must be careful that Power Isnt consolidated only in the presidency. And so far, the president has said he doesnt plan to consolidate power only for him, but that measures have to happen, particularly against corruption. So a lot of the problems that have happened is. Due to corruption. As mina said, thats a problem thats existed for years and goes back well beyond the arab Spring Revolution of 2011. Is there a danger, though, that the response becomes a default oh, look, what we need is a strong leader, someone who will get things done . I think there is, and i think, and i hope we can take at Face Value the president s words that he doesnt want to consolidate power in his own hands but i think mina is right the trade unions, other civil groups will, one hopes, be keeping an eye on this because, for all its faults, tunisia was the last semblance of a functioning democracy although it didnt function very well to come out of the arab spring, so i think the stakes are fairly high. Covid has a potential, doesnt it, steve richards, to be a really significant threat to incumbents . Yeah, and it dominates the politics, certainly in all democracies at the moment. Its very hard to make judgements about the longer term implications of any current Polling Situation anywhere. I think you are going to mention australia, for example, where the government was perceived to have done quite well early on. And now, its perceived to be done quite badly because they dont have the vaccines, theyre still cocooned with people not allowed in or out but its spreading. Still have these persistent regular lockdown. Regular lockdown is in big cities. So inevitably, the incumbent suffers, and the main Opposition Party Labour are ahead in the polls. You can see something of that happening in the united kingdom. Polls here are unreliable narrators. But during the sort of euphoria of the vaccine rollout, the tories were miles ahead as the incumbent. Now whether there are doubts about opening up and some of the incoherence of policymaking is a bit clearer, the polls are narrowing. To make sense of politics in any democracy at the moment, you have to weigh in the freakish conditions weve all been living in for the last 18 months. We arent out of yet. How is it going down in iraq . Thats a democracy with enough problems to deal with and enough troubles to establish itself after the saddam hussein regime, after The American led invasion. How much has covid complicated the picture there . Well, its complicated i peoples lives incredibly. The political picture, as you know, is already quite difficult, but weve seen again how corruption. And mismanagement lead i to people losing their lives. Weve had two major Hospital Fires due to Oxygen Cylindersl catching fire, and therefore. The entire hospital not having the right sprinklers, in two different cities only about seven weeks apart. We had dozens of. Deaths and injuries. So, it shows you that we dontl have the underpinnings of good governance and we dont have the underpinnings. Of actually setting up publici sectors that serve the public rather than its own political agenda. And trying to win votes by sending money here and there to influence people, it doesnt serve the purpose of serving people. Sadly, thats what we see in iraq. Numbers are rising. You were talking about. 7000 8000 cases a day, and iraq doesnt do much testing, so when we say seven to 8000, its usually| about 40 to 50,000. To get those thousands. Its much wider than. Whats being reported. Iraq also has a lot i of vaccine hesitancy. Youre looking at 2 to 3 l of people getting vaccinated. There was a problem initially getting Vaccine Support but they have now had some shipments delivered, but people are still hesitant, which as we are seeing Around The World. We had this visit by the Prime Minister to washington, and the announcement byJoe Biden. About the end of an American Military presence in iraq. What are the implications of that decision . Whats interesting is americans and iraqis have agreed its troops that are ending. I which means theyre still going i to have 2 3000 american troops. Importantly, nato increased its mission and the Prime Minister went to see president biden, but before that he had beenl In Brussels where He Metl with the Secretary General of Nato And Nato is keyl to keeping its presence. Its a different story from afghanistan, which could be much more complicated. There is some american presence i in iraq, however those militias. And iranian backed groups. Are working hard to make it very uncomfortable fori The Americans and nato to maintain even that small Troop Presencej as they want to be able to stamp their own influence. What was interesting in that. Meeting his present biden had a little paper in his hand, i and it had two bullet points, one was that the us is willing to respond to. One was the us was willing to respond to attacks on its interest, and two Thatl Iran maybe considering those attacks which is worrying, because that means iraql would become another opponent. Ned, last thought on this. Contrasting outcomes in iraq and afghanistan, does that suggest The Americans have written off afghanistan as an area of interest and their focus remains on iraq . I think its probably a bit more complicated than that. I think there is a real sense of retreat, like after the vietnam war. Still hanging over from the iraq war. In washington, its very hard to get consensus in favour of significant military involvement, particularly in The Middle East. I think in that sense, its kind of a political triumph to leave some presence in iraq. I think the more general shift is away from the middle East And Europe to a certain extent, and this new primary Foreign Policy focusing on the Asia Pacific Region and china. Thats one for another day. And now to the � any other business� at the end of every agenda. In the case of dateline, its the opportunity for each of you to tell us about a story or an angle on a story you think has not received sufficient attention so far. Ned, do you want to kick us off . I will, and this will sound weird because im got a Kick Off with the olympics, which has been giving a fair amount of coverage. Different aspect of the olympics. Not the Medals Table and not even the winners. Im always transfixed and moved by some of the personal stories that risk getting overlooked or forgotten of those who dont win. And in this, i include two remarkable young women. Naomi osaka, the japanese tennis player, simone biles, The American gymnast, both of whom in different circumstances did not win medals and very courageously and articulately talked about the issues of Mental Health and pressures which are too often overlooked. Helen glover, a brit, mid 30s, a champion in rowing in the past, who decided after having three kids to make one last crack at getting a medal. And i was immensely moved when she just missed and she and her partner came in fourth, just outside the bronze medal position. She made a point which again is too often overlooked. She said the reward is knowing that we crossed the line and gave it our all. The Frustration And Defeat wouldve been coming away and thinking we had more and that we didnt give it. And it kind of puts things in context and it reminds us that its not all about winning and its not all about the Medals Table. Absolutely. True olympian spirit, that. To train to your best and perform to your utmost and take part and accept defeat as with the same cheerfulness as victory. There was certainly modesty from the irish rowers as well, their victory this week. Mina . I want to say, as were talking about the olympics, please pay attention to paralympics. For me, i think the story i dont think its gettingl enough attention, from july 5, they have been protesting in an, particularly there have been at least nine deaths and 171 arrests. People are not. Paying attention. There are several cities that have protests, and unfortunately, their voice is not being heard. In the times, they said they think the era of Water Wars could be up on us sooner than later. Iran aside, do you feel some resonance with that . Do you feel like a war is over Natural Resources are likely to become more of an issue in the coming decades . They already have. Iran, a lot of the protests where people are facing power shortages, you see that and so many parts. The middle eastl but also beyond. Water wars in the fight over Natural Resources for actual| survival are going to increasej unfortunately with the impact of climate change. We talked about that a bit last week in the context of the german storms and the unsettled weather continues in many parts of the world. Steve . Yeah, the new head of a body called Nhs England was appointed this week. Now, for england, that should be a huge political story. Because in theory Nhs England runs the legendary nhs. Much talked about in the uk during much talked about in the uk during the pandemic. But there is a question to how much this new head of the current deputy, amanda prichard, how much power she will have because the government is held to account for the running of the nhs. So the Health Secretary in theory is going to take more power back with some reforms going through government at the moment. But is the current new Health Secretary keen on that idea . If not him, who does hold full account . And whenever the question is posed, who is responsible for what . Who is in charge for what . Of any institution be it the bbc, a football club, the nhs, Theres Trouble ahead. It has not been clear for a long time the divisions of responsibility. The covid downing Street Press briefings which used to happen in the uk twice or three times a week, there was never one where there was a Health Secretary and the head of Nhs England standing together, because they wouldnt be sure which of the two should answer the questions. cause they are both theoretically responsible for a lot of it. Terrifying to give contradictory answer. 0r both started speaking at the same time. So these blurred lines of responsibility will be a big issue on reflecting on what happens next with the nhs and the role of Nhs England so supposedly theoretically powerful, will be in question, as it really has been all the way through this dance between elected politicians and those non elected people they asked to run the nhs. And this applies to so many institutions in england in this era. And when the question cannot be coherently answered as to who is responsible for what, trouble ahead for any institution. Around the world. Where that Question Cant be answered. Steve richards, Mina Al Oraibi and ned temko, thank you very much for being with us on this weeks dateline. Thats it for Dateline London for this week. I was reminded when ned mentioned helen glover, won gold In London and rio and came forth this time, set a Lockdown Project thats gone too far. From all of us, goodbye. Hello there. For most parts of the uk, Sunday Got August off to a relatively quiet Start Weather wise. I say most parts of the uk. For some, there were some vicious downpours and thunderstorms during the afternoon. And its a similar story into monday a relatively dry, but not completely dry start to the new week. Quite a cool start as well and then some wetter, windier weather is set to develop later in the week. High pressure trying to control things at the moment, but its quite a weak ridge of high pressure, not strong enough to fend off all the showers. Most places having a largely dry day on monday with some sunshine, but quite a lot of cloud clinging on across north east scotland, certainly across the northern isles. This area of cloud bringing rain to much of Northern Ireland, and then some showers breaking out across parts of england and wales as we head into the afternoon, some turning quite heavy and thundery for the South West of england, wales and the midlands. The winds very light, so get yourself into some sunshine and it wont feel too bad, despite these temperatures being quite disappointing for the time of year, 14 20 degrees. Some of those showers across england and wales will continue on through monday night, even into the early hours of tuesday. Most places will be dry with some clear spells, but you can see this area of rain approaching the far South West. Quite a fresh, cool start to Tuesday Morning as well, but that area of rain in the far South West looks set to dive away southwards towards parts of france, so that rain not making a lot of progress across our shores, just really into cornwall and the isles of scilly. We will see some rain across the channel islands, but most places on tuesday seeing some spells of sunshine and one or two showers popping up again into the afternoon. A few of those could be heavy, possibly thundery, and temperatures again up to 20, possibly 21 degrees. Now, into wednesday, i think we could see a few more showers breaking out at this stage, a line of showers likely to push in across north west scotland, some breaking out elsewhere through the afternoon and again some heavy, thundery ones, those temperatures around 20 or 21 degrees. As we head towards the end of the week, things are set to turn more unsettled. One area of low Pressure Rolling in for thursday, another one behind it and thats our Weather Maker for next weekend, so generally speaking as we head towards the end of the week it is going to turn more unsettled with showers or longer spells of rain and potentially some fairly brisk winds as well. This is bbc news. Im sarah mulkerrins, Live In Tokyo on day 10 of the olympics. The ioc say theyre in regular touch with a Belarus Athlete under Police Protection in tokyo, after her team officials tried to put her on a Plane Home against her will. The first openly transgender athlete to compete in an olympics is due to make History Today when she competes in the womens weightlifting competition. Im Rich Preston In London. Also in the programme taliban fighters continue to advance in afghanistan, attacking cities, and threatening to over run the capital of helmand province. Unarmed troops begin to patrol the streets of sydney as australia ramps up its covid lockdown