Welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. Inevitably, we associate artists with the times in which they emerge and the work which brings them widespread acclaim. So it is with my guest today, michael stipe, Lead Singer of The American band rem, who were pioneers of an indie Rock Sound which emerged from a Georgia College Campus in the � 80s and won worldwide acclaim in the 1990s. Now, hes a Visual Artist who records new music sparingly. He says the best art is about bravery, confronting fear. So what has he been frightened of . Thank you. How are you, stephen . Michael stipe in berlin, welcome to hardtalk. I am very well, delighted to see you. I think its fair to say that we all think of you, first and foremost, as a musician, but these days, your primary focus seems to be Visual Art and im just wondering whether that visual sense was with you from the very beginning. Yeah, i actually started as an art student, but prior to that, i took up photography at 1a. It was when i was 15 years old that i discovered the Cbgb Punk Rock scene in new york and patti smith, and i bought her record the day it came out, and then i kind of never looked back. But i took photographs the whole time that i was performing and writing and singing with rem. And ive used photography In My Life almost like a diary, because i dont really write anything down, and so the images, for me, are kind of a way of remembering my extraordinary and very, very lucky life. Ive had a Sneak Preview of the book of photographs and images which you are currently releasing and its fascinating to me because its partly, it seems, a visual memoir. There are people in that book, pictures of people in that book who well, there you go who clearly have been very important to you. Some very personal, family members. Some very famous very famous writers and actors and artists. Why have you chosen to profile these particular people . My best friend, tom gilroy, when he saw the book for the first time and hes in it he said, this is like the James Brown theres a James Brown song from the 1970s, where he basicallyjust, its a Shout Out. He theres a beautiful Funk Track behind him and hesjust shouting out to all the people that he finds to be inspiring or heroic or important to him in that year i think it was 1972 when he recorded it. This book is a little bit of my version of the James Brown Shout Out song. I started as it started the project started just as a simple book of portraits. And then lockdown happened, and it became more a picture of a year of trying to actually pull through lockdown without going completely insane. Is there a common thread that draws together, for example, your grandparents because you include some lovely old pictures of them and then, you know, the artists im thinking of Tilda Swinton whos there in several powerful images, Gore Vidal, patti smith, others is there a common thread from the deeply personal to the more celebrity . Yeah, i mean, what it is, really, are these are all people that touched me in that I2 Month Period between March 2020 and march april 2021. And people that are either In My Life they because i was born into that family, or theyre In My Life because i created a family of friends and people who i find to be insanely courageous and heroic and inspiring to me. And then there are people like Gore Vidal who i met and never really had an opportunity to tell him how much he meant to me. There are people who i will never meet, like Breonna Taylor or Dewayne Leejohnson people that are, because of their lives or because of their unfortunate deaths, are incredibly heroic to me. So, its really about heroes and people that i aspire to be like. I talked in my introduction about your sort of discussion of fear and the way you admire people who confront their Fears Head on and walk toward them, rather than run away from them. Let me ask you, in your life, whether you think youve been good at that, at confronting your own fears. I have not been good at that, and Thats Part of what this project is about. My father was a Helicopter Pilot in The American army and i he fought he went to korea, and he went to vietnam twice and he ran reconnaissance as a pilot. He did things that i consider to be the most insanely fearful. The idea of being in a helicopter, much less piloting one, much less piloting one in an active combat zone, is, for me, the epitome of Heroism And Courage you know, courageousness. He would look at me on stage with rem in front of however many, 40,000 people, and would be like, how do you do that . I dont understand. So, its a little bit like, i guess, were looking at each other and recognising traits that we are inspiring or that we acknowledge as aspirational my father being, of course, a brilliant example for me. Well, let me take on that question of you and rem and how you did that because you started, you know, in those sort of underground venues in georgia in athens, georgia, with small crowds and an indie vibe. But you became a huge band across the world, playing, as you said, to Tens Of Thousands of people in stadiums and arenas. Were you always an extrovert . Did you want to be a Pop Star . I wanted to be a Pop Star, for sure. But extrovert . No way. Im still incredibly shy and ive managed to learn how to talk to people and finish a sentence but thats not something that even now, at the age of 61, comes easily to me. I did, you know, i did feel like. But, michael, let me stop you. Why would an introvert, somebody who, you know, is shy, who finds crowds and people difficult, want to be a Pop Star . I dont know i mean, part of it, of course, is ego. And this kind of insane, like, Self Absorption that comes with the territory of wanting to be a famous person. But with that comes out of necessity, i think a discipline, a recognition of the humiliation that is a part of it. You really kind of have to fall on your face publicly several times to not begin to buy your own myth and believe all the beautiful, good things that people say about you. You have to you have to face that particular fear. So, in that regard, maybe i am a little more courageous than i give myself credit for but i think i was born a fearful person and thats you know, over the course of my life has been something that ive tried to work around, ive tried to work through, ive tried to be a better person and ive tried to confront and address my fears and be a little more brave about them, so, yeah. Your Career Rem Career really took off in the early 19805. The song i remember that i still associate with that period was radio free europe. But you toured a lot, you played a lot of independent venues across the United States and i guess by the mid � 80s, you were becoming quite well known. Did that become difficult for you at that time you know, the attention, the media, maybe even the groupies . I dont know, i mean, was it becoming something you struggled with . Yeah. I mean, i wasnt sure that i wanted to be famous, i wasnt sure that i wanted to do that any more. And it was, you know, for me, as a queer man, it was a particularly difficult time because of aids and the inability in 1985 86 to get anonymous testing. So, for part of that, you know, part of my fear was that part of my fear during that period was that i wasnt sure what my status was. As it turns out, i was fine all along, but it was a very terrifying time to be queer and, you know, particularly, i mean, there was, following the civil Rights Movement in the United States, following the womens liberation movement, there was an obvious next step was going to be the gay liberation movement, what we would now call lgbtqia, all the queers. There would be a similar kind of thing following that. That was shut down in your country, certainly by thatcher, In My Country by reagan, and then, of course, by aids. But, michael, ifind that all so interesting because you talk about it so easily and openly now about, you know, you being queer, as you put it. But in that period, you werent open about it. And we didnt know that you were going through those fears that you might have contracted aids and that your whole, sort of, life might unravel. We didnt know you were living that, because you were, frankly, quite secretive about it. Yeah, i mean, at the time, honestly, i was very honest with all the people that are In My Life about my sexuality, if thats what youre asking. But in terms of questioning my hiv status, i was very concerned, and thats not something that you share on tv, or certainly not in 1985, stephen. Were talking about a really very different time than it is now. Mmm. And so, for me, it was really, you know, about more of a privacy thing. I mean, when i did speak publicly about my sexuality, i was very happy to do so and i was one of the first of my generation, and certainly in my field, at the time to do so. I mean, we had eltonjohn, who i love and will always love, we had Kd Lang and we had boy george, and that was about it. It was some years on, after i spoke publicly about my sexuality, that George Michael and ellen degeneres, and all these other people. Thats right, yeah. Crosstalk. I think what you were very brave about was talking about Mental Health and, indeed, about physical health, too, because i think you described how in that mid � 80s period, when you were really stricken with fear and you were not feeling good about yourself, you suffered from bulimia for a while and i think you said that you basically had a breakdown. Im just wondering how hard it was to live life On The Road with a very successful Rock Band while youre suffering from bulimia and while, frankly, youre going through a breakdown. Yeah, i mean, there was a mental Health Thing going on there for about 1. 5 years and it was not pretty and it was not good and i was certainly not easy to be around. But i was able to get on stage and do myjob. I mean, part of what you can go and, you know, you can search images and you can find pictures of me very, very, very obese and very sad looking and that was not my, kind of, natural state. You had your most extraordinary successes in the early to mid 1990s. Out of time was an album that the critics loved and then it sold, i think, by the million. And then you had Automatic For The People and, actually, if you dont mind, michael, we want to just play a little clip of one of the most famous rem songs of all time, Losing My Religion, which you played at glastonbury. So, letsjust have, both of us, have a look at this. I thought that i heard you laughing. I thought that i heard you sing. I think i thought i saw you try. But that was just a dream. That was just a dream. Thats me in the corner. Michael, when you look back at those images of you from that super successful period of your life, does it seem like A Million miles away or is there something of that still very much in you today . You know, i watched that performance actually very recently. Patti smith, who is a great friend, ran it on she does a substack where she she writes and speaks and sends it out to her fans through email, and she honoured my band and a conversation that we had had a few days prior by showing that exact clip and so, i you know, it does feel A Million miles away. I miss performing, certainly. Its been almost ten years now since the band, rem, disbanded. And that was a huge part of my entire adult life, was performing and being a very, very public figure and a very public performer. And, you know, with my own, like, kind of take on subverting from within, you know, creating this i didnt have to create a persona. I am the persona. Ijust exaggerated it slightly for the public but creating this thing whereby we really were extremely mainstream but what we were presenting through our political ideas, through who i am as a person, were not mainstream at all, and im quite proud of that. But, yes, of course, i do miss it and it feels like a long time ago. Heres a fun quote. I dont know if you remember him saying it, but your Band Mate Peter buck, in the late � 80s, said this. He said, i think it is within us to make one of those top 20 all time Rock And Roll great records. I just wonder whether with Losing My Religion or any of the other shiny happy people, everybody hurts, these tunes that we all know, or at least i know, whether you feel you did it, you made one of the all time great Rock And Roll records . I mean, the thing that i really personally wanted was to have a song of the summer, and thats exactly what happened with Losing My Religion. I feel very proud of that. It was that song that everyone sings everywhere, its coming out of every shop that you drive by or walk by. We had that with Losing My Religion. And so, you know, i hit that particular personal peak and im very proud of it. It was awesome. The funny thing is your persona, for quite a lot of your career in rem, was quite difficult for people to sort of decipher. You were a little bit enigmatic. You sometimes looked a bit sullen and grumpy on stage. We couldnt always tell quite what you were singing about. Did it then become strange when some of your tunes became so very popular . Its not unlike this book, thatjust came out, of portraits. You know, when i put the book together and handed it to the publisher, i thought that what i had created was something that was kind of overly explaining what it is. It seemed to. It felt not subtle at all. A month later, i got the first copy of the book, it had been printed and everything was done. And i looked at it alone in my house, late at night, and i realised it was actually quite difficult and not easy to understand. I added a Qr Code to try to give people, like, breadcrumbs to figure out what my intention was when i put the book together. But i use this example because, in Writing Songs and in writing lyrics, particularly, i often felt like i was being incredibly obvious about what i was singing, about what i was presenting. And it turns out that i kind of wasnt. I mean, like my father, there is. I dont think of myself as an eccentric person, but my father was very eccentric and i loved him deeply and i miss him immensely, and i miss his humour. Theres a humour thats sometimes lost in my presenting of what it is that im doing, whether its music or Visual Art. I think one thing that became more obvious to people who followed your career and your music over time was your political views. I mean, im sure you always held strong political views, but you perhaps expressed them more over time, particularly maybe as you opposed the Iraq War and you opposed things that you saw with george w bush, and you very much identified Withjohn Kerry in that 2004 election campaign. Did you ever feel that maybe it was a bit of a risk as an artist and a musician to become overtly political . It was a risk. Well, it was a risk worth taking, absolutely. And, yeah, we were going to lose some fans because we were outspoken about our beliefs, about the things that we felt strongly about. And im very proud of that now. I mean, i was very proud of it at the time. I think we did lose fans, i know that we did. But i hope that, you know, we were able, in our way, to open up Dialogue Or Conversation about some of these issues and to point people towards something that was perhaps a bit different than what they might have just assumed, to help open peoples minds up a little bit. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, it interests me, cos right, now youre talking to me from berlin, and youve spent an awful lot of time in europe. And i just wonder what your feelings are about your home country. I mean, yoursound in many ways is so american. And yet i wonder if you feel troubled, in a way, by the Notion Of Being American or. Well, i mean, yes, of course its been a very difficult fouryears, stephen. And you guys arent doing so well yourselves, i have to say. Im sorry about that. But being american is not easy. It never has been easy. Nor being american from The American south has never been easy. People make assumptions based on things that are historic, or things that they read or hear. And those assumptions sometimes theres a thread of truth, but quite often theyre kind of absurd and cartoonish. Americans are, you know. Ive said it before, ill say it again. Were a very young country. Were like teenagers. We think that were immortal. We think that were right and everyone else is wrong. And we show our asses. Were really good at that. If youre going to do something thats outrageous and, like, pushing the boundaries of good taste, americans are going to take it to the next level. And i think we proved that with the last administration that we could take the experiment that america is, the beauty of the idea of democracy, and completely blow it up and do something, create this situation that is so volatile and so chaotic, and so absurd, literally ridiculously cartoonish, with the former administration. You know, we didnt catch the falling knife with this last election. We caught, like, the Cartoon Chainsaws that are raining from the heavens. And were trying to piece it back together and find our footing. All this during a time of great unrest because of racial equality issues In My Country. And all of this, of course, under Covid 19 and lockdown. So, its been a very pivotal, odd time as an american, certainly as a world citizen. It hasnt been easy for anyone. Yeah, and Ijust Wonder whether you have a hope still that art, your art, whether it be the music or the photography, and the Visual Arts that youre doing right now, can make a difference, or at least be a part of a discussion and a debate. Do you see that as an important part of what you do . Yes, i mean, listen, this is my contribution. Its what im able to do, its what im capable of. Im a terrible writer, im a terrible painter. Im a good activist. Im not very good at getting arrested. But i am 0k about going on television or writing essays for the guardian or what have you, to talk about the things that i think are important and the things that i think we need to address. I mean, lets face it, we have all, as global citizens, weve just been through this incredibly important and were now coming out of this very important, pivotal moment this inflection point, i think, is what our current Vice President called It Where what was before, were looking at the things that were wrong. Were realising this insane moment that weve moved through, and were now trying to look towards the future to pull the parts that were great from before and get rid of the parts that really sucked. You and the band mates, you wrapped up rem, i think, a decade ago, and you said, you know, one of the keys to any successful project is to know when to finish it. But that is not very Rock And Roll. Many, many of the most famous Rock And Rollers in the world decide that a reunion is ultimately a good idea. Could that happen to you and the old band . I mean, we never were very Rock And Roll, stephen. I think we were more of a pop band, you know. And i particularly know, of course. And in terms of a reunion, no, just give it up. Its not going to happen. Categorically not . No, absolutely not. And ive said that a zillion times, and ill say it one more time. Its not going to happen. Well, we hear you, michael. But its not that youre giving up music entirely, cos sparingly you do release new music. And i wonder whether you feel you can combine Visual Arts and music going forward, or whether the music is slowly dying in you. Oh, the music is not dying at all, no. I mean, i love my voice, i love writing music and composing, and arranging. Its not easy, though, its not an easy thing to do. I was really pushed by the band when the band were together. Now im on my own, i have zero representation. I dont have a contract with anyone. Im a free agent. And, you know, im proud to release the songs that ive put out one with your very own Sam Taylor Johnson directing a beautiful Video Piece to go along with the song your capricious soul. Im so proud of that. And ill continue to do so. Im working this summer on some new music, and i hope to continue making Sound And Music a part of My Life For The Rest Of my life. Its something Ifind Greatjoy in. And i do really like. I dont like my Speaking Voice very much, to tell you the truth, but i like my Singing Voice a great deal. So, i want to use it. I, for one, share the pleasure in your voice. So, im delighted to hear youre still going to use it. Michael stipe, weve run out of time, but thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. Thanks for having me, stephen, its a great pleasure. Hello there. Storm evert is bringing a quite exceptionally windy spell of weather for this time of year across the south of the uk, with a met Office Amber Warning issued for a good part of cornwall and the isles of scilly. Its all because of this area of low pressure, quite a small low, but quite a powerful one tracking its way eastwards, with the strongest winds on the southern flank. You can see the Amber Warning area here across cornwall into the isles of scilly. Those are the wind gusts in the black circles. But the winds also really quite brisk across a good part of devon, dorset, into hampshire, up the Bristol Channel and across the South Coast of wales as well. So, some Damage And Disruption quite possible as we start the day, and with this curl of wet weather as well, some heavy and potentially thundery bursts of rain at times. 0ur Storm tracks its way eastwards across england and wales through the day. For Northern Ireland and scotland, calmer weather, quite a lot of cloud and some showers, some of which could be heavy, but a few sunny spells breaking through as well. Stays windy for a good part of the day down towards the south, but those winds will slowly be easing as we head towards the end of the afternoon. Temperatures, well, a bit disappointing, really, for this time of year, 17 20 degrees. Now, you can see our swirl of low pressure clearing Away Eastwards as we head through friday night. Into the early hours of saturday, fairly large areas of cloud, one or two showers and some clear spells. Temperatures between 12 15 degrees as we begin the weekend. So, the remnants of Storm Evert clearing Away Eastwards. High pressure trying to build in from the west, but not having much luck. Stranded between low pressure and high pressure, we will have a northerly wind through the weekend, and that means it will, generally speaking, be rather cool for the time of year. We will see some spells of sunshine, but also some showers, some of which could be quite heavy. Quite a lot of cloud, i think, as we start saturday morning. Some outbreaks of patchy rain here and there. Some sunny spells developing, but some pretty sharp showers, especially down towards the south. Could be the odd flash of lightning, the odd rumble of thunder. In the sunniest spots, up to 21 22 degrees. And then as we look ahead to sunday, again quite a lot of cloud, some showers or potentially longer spells of rain, the Odd Thunderstorm down towards the south later on. We will see some sunny spells, but temperatures quite disappointing, especially in northern scotland. Here, just 111 15 degrees. This is Bbc News im Victoria Fritz with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. Tokyo extends its state of emergency, afterjapan suffers a Record Breakaing 10,000 daily covid cases. Theres increasing concern the olympics is fuellng the spike. Im Sarah Mulkerrins Live In Tokyo on day 7 of the olympics where there was as World Record for South Africa as Tatjana Schoenmaker wins gold in the 200 metres breaststroke. Australia sends in the troops to enforce sydneys stay at home restrictions as covid infections continue to rise. 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