Hello. After the torrent of racial abuse that englands footballers suffered after that penalty shoot out, you might wonder why theyd want to be on Social Media at all. Do the benefits of direct access to the fans and being able to tell their own unedited story outweigh the really horrifying negatives . And what about the platforms themselves . Why cant they quash the abuse more effectively . It is an example of much broader issues around the Power And Accountability of Social Media giants, and that is the subject of a behind the Scenes Book written by two New York times journalists about facebook. So, let me introduce you to our guests. Firstly, to New York and to sheera frenkel. Sheera, youve called your book the ugly truth, which means, i guess, that youre not secretary of the Mark Zuckerberg Fan club. I wonder what facebook makes of you. Have they been in touch with you directly about what they think of the book . In the weeks leading up to the publication of the book, facebook was in touch with us multiple times a day. There were days where it was dozens of times a day. They made it very clear that they objected to many things in the book, which was interesting because we had gone through a four Month Fact checking process with them in which we had gone over every detail and every scene and really given them every chance to respond. But it was only when the book was actually printed and about to hit the shelves that they seemed to sort of realise that this was going to be hitting the public soon. And then, it was going to, i think, raise a lot of concerns about the way the company has been run. Well hear more about that later. Cecilia kang, the cover of your book, actually, has a list of apologies from facebook, things like, we never meant to upset you, we need to do better. What is it theyre apologising for . Theyre apologising for a whole history of mistakes and scandals and promises to do better. We thought the real power of putting those quotes in the back of the book, im sorry, im sorry, im sorry, from Sheryl Sandberg and Mark Zuckerberg, really actually gave readers a sense of what would be in the book, which is a very powerful pattern of mistake, apology, promises to do better, wash, rinse and repeat that cycle over and over again. That, really, is one of the most powerful things that we took away from our reporting, that surprised us, which was this kind of pattern for this very powerful company. Great, well, well hear more about that later on. Also with us today are three sports journalists. Henry winter is chief Football Writer for the times. Henry, England Player Tyrone mings used Social Media to criticise the home secretary, Priti Patel. He accused her of stoking the fire of racism. And Sir Keir Starmer quoted that social Media Post in Prime Ministers questions. I wonder if that means that you find that you are fighting to keep political journalists off your turf at the moment. Well, not really because i think if you look at the cover, certainly from the print media, weve been echoing the sentiments of the supporters and i the players in particular. You mentioned Tyrone Mings and the way he put away Priti Patel with his very succinct message i to her when she had a go earlier in the tournament about players| Gesture Politics by taking a knee. I think what you saw with the racist abuse of the three black players i who missed penalties shows why players will take a knee. And also, particularly with Tyrone Mings, and ive interviewed him on this subject hes a very eloquent, intelligent individual i and it was Tyrone Mings Who On His England Debut in bulgaria was racially abused. Iand his family had travelled outi to see their son make this debut, and he was racially abused by a minimum of 50 bulgarians. So hes very aware of the racist issues in this country and in other countries far more than many politicians. Well, Mayowa Quadri is a freelance Football Writer and a broadcaster. Hes also editorial officer at versus, which describes itself as a platform championing the future of football. Mayowa, i know you dont have the backing of a major newspaper like the times, for example, so i imagine that you dont get the same access to top players, or do you . And i wonder how helpful footballers Social Media profiles are to you. We do to a certain extent. I think ultimately, that has come because of Social Media. I feel that a lot more footballers are going to be in control of the narrative around themselves and tell authentic stories. I mean, print does an amazing job, but of course, broadcasters traditionally are focused on the result and the matter of facts of the game, whereas new media can focus on societal issues, personal habits and things that footballers really want to talk about. For instance, someone like rashford, jaden sancho, these young footballers who are really in touch with their culture and where they come from. Versus enables them to speak about that. Well, Joey Durso is Investigations Writer for the atlantic, covering football. Sorry for athletic, rather not atlantic. And joey, youve been investigating Social Media and football for quite a long time now. Obviously, online racism towards sportspeople isnt new, but can you give us an idea of the scale of the abusive Social Media messages and comments that were aimed at englands footballers this week . Yeah, so itsjust everywhere and its really depressing and its really dark. As soon as those three black players missed their penalties on Sunday Night, they were inundated with the most horrendous kind of abuse, things like monkey emojis. The kind of ways that people get around these filters because they know if they use certain slur words that the Social Media filters will pick them out, whereas maybe emojis are harder. People do things like direct messages on instagram, which are harder to filter than the comment feed. I did a story a few months ago about fantasy premier league, a game where you pick your favourite players and you win points and stuff, and we found thousands of accounts with nazi names and things like that the most depraved stuff. Itsjust everywhere, and every time the sites say, were going to do more, its never quite enough and they never. It continues. Theres something quite dark in Human Nature that makes people want to do that after these players, who are heroes, who are brave, who played brilliantly for their Country Someone like saka who was fantastic in his tournament to shower him with racial Abuse Isjust awful. What Social Media sites do is never quite enough. Sheera and cecilia will probably be able to speak more to this, but in my eyes, what they need to do is spend more money on human moderators because the automatic algorithms are not working. They need to put their hand in their extremely deep pockets and pay more people to do better at this, but thats obviously a very expensive solution. Mayowa, is this something that you were actually expecting when events unfolded on Sunday Night . 100 . It first dawned on me probably before this. I just thought to myself, it could go absolutely sour. Happened against liverpool very early on, and its something that people just come to expect. I think the situation in particular was heightened because its the first major final for england. Youve got loads of people out going to watch the game because youve not have this moment before. I personally had to message friends after the first penalty, saying leave now, because i dont know whats going to happen. We saw reports of some of the incidents happening across the country, which were just inexcusable. Its completely wrong. So, that feeling, its not a new feeling, that ultimately for black players to fall short of what they want to achieve. Theyre going to be racially abused, and it makes me almost laugh because imagine if all of those penalties had gone in the same people who use them would be celebrating and we wouldve never known. Not that we wouldve never known, but it wouldve been completely hidden in the split moment. You can see the true reality come to life. Cecilia, your dayjob is Tech And Regulation correspondent for the New York times. Ijust wondered, the Prime Minister said that fans who post racial abuse will be banned from matches, but i wonder, is that going to be enough . Will there not be a better option to prevent racial abuse being posted . I wonder if it isnt that quite simple. It seems to me that you could stop these platforms posting this kind of abuse because footballers are verified, and if the message has got their name in it, it wouldnt get through. Whats stopping facebook and the rest of them doing that . Is it their principles around Free Speech, or have i oversimplified the technicalities of moderation . Definitely, theres a very strong Free Speech bent. Theres also a very convenient bent for facebooks business model. We cover that in our book. A lot of the decisions were focused on growth. And growth of the Business And Growth of revenues and profits. As one of your guest said, it should not have been a surprise to see the racial epithets that were thrown out during the game. But time and time again, what facebook has shown is that they dont look at, not even just around the corner, but whats in front of them. They are focused on a different metric. Free speech is absolutely an important thing. I think for governments around the world. I think its a way that facebook goes about moderating their content, its also filled with holes. Theres a lot of problems on that. They rely heavily on reports. If you have Three Billion users around the world, and even if you do have tens of thousands of human moderators and ai, youll never be able to suppress the amount of Hate Speech and misinformation and harmful content. Its always after the fact. The racial epithets were already said and they were already amplified, which is important by facebook theres a real problem, even the structure and approach. Ijust wanted to add one thing to what you said, which is as one of your previous guests was talking, i found myself nodding or shaking my head. This tactic of using emojis and using emoticons as a way of abating Hate Speech moderators has been used for years. We have an entire chapter of our book about myanmar, and how facebook was told over and over what was happening with Hate Speech. Butjust by using Little Emojis and gifs, people are able to evade some of that censorship that facebook said it would impose to prevent real World Violence in the streets there. Despite knowing that this is happening, despite knowing these emojis and whatnot are invented on the fly each time to try and perpetuate Hate Speech on their platform, facebook cannot seem to get a handle on it. Ijust have a statement here from facebook, who own instagram. They told us No One should have to experience Races Abuse anywhere, and they dont want to own instagram. They quickly removed comments on sunday and will continue to take action against those who break their rules. Mayowa, i wanted to ask you why a footballer would want to be on Social Media. Can you explain the upside for them . There are many. You dont have to look any further than marcus rashford. This is someone who single handedly managed to galvanise the nation, that there was a massive issue with Food Poverty in the country. He did that because he was able to speak to his fans via Social Media. You can look at other footballers who enable, jordan henderson, in terms of everything he speaks about. He has been able to do that because he can use his Social Media. Theres been times where he wasnt playing because hes injured. Hes lent his instagram handle to communities that need that sort of publicity. There are many benefits. Traditionally, wejust had publicity. There are many benefits. Traditionally, we just had a Broadcast Model where a narrative was based on what was put out, whereas with Social Media you can control that. You can look at someone like christian rinaldo. Hes got millions and millions and millions of followers. But his value is much more thanjust him playing, so that brings him personal wealth. There are so many different reasons why you would want to have Social Media presence. Weve seen situations where because of what were talking about, footballers have gone away from Social Media because they thought to themselves, why would i be so open and accessible if im going to be abuse . Prime example is terry henri. But there are definitely benefits. There is this negative side that keeps pppin9 is this negative side that keeps ppping up is this negative side that keeps popping up. Itjust confuses me because, how can you say there is nothing that can be done . Itjust really, really confuses me. We see all the time at the moment, and im not trying to compare the two situations, but they put things into place to make sure they can instantly react to stuff. Why is that not the case for other situations . Especially when, and this is the most recent situation, about the monkey emojis, its almost as if theyve completely forgotten. Imagine how any black Person Reading that feels. Thats the element thats not spoken in out enough. Henry . The online Safety Bill came in in march the online Safety Bill came in in march. Certainly, the online Safety Bill came in in march. Certainly, the the online Safety Bill came in in march. Certainly, the draft the online Safety Bill came in in march. Certainly, the draft of. The online Safety Bill came in in| march. Certainly, the draft of it. Its not simply about online abuse, there are other elements. One of the key things which, if it comes onto the statute books, the government can find that the tech giant, could be charged for allowing Hate Crimes on their platforms. Theres such an extra debate | here about how whether they are platforms or publishers. I if they are deemed as publishers, | they should absolutely be charged. Just coming back to the other thing, that the just coming back to the other thing, that the tech just coming back to the other thing, that the Tech Giants just coming back to the other thing, that the Tech Giants are just coming back to the other thing, that the Tech Giants are very just coming back to the other thing, that the Tech Giants are very quick l that the Tech Giants are very quick at taking that the Tech Giants are very quick at taking down that the Tech Giants are very quick at taking down. If that the Tech Giants are very quick at taking down. If a that the Tech Giants are very quick at taking down. If a football that the Tech Giants are very quick at taking down. If a Football Fan i at taking down. If a Football Fan had tweeted at taking down. If a Football Fan had tweeted a at taking down. If a Football Fan had tweeted a picture at taking down. If a Football Fan had tweeted a picture of at taking down. If a Football Fanl had tweeted a picture of bukayo at taking down. If a Football Fan had tweeted a picture of Bukayo Saka and posted had tweeted a picture of Bukayo Saka and posted it had tweeted a picture of Bukayo Saka and posted it on had tweeted a picture of Bukayo Saka and posted it on social had tweeted a picture of Bukayo Saka and posted it on Social Media, and posted it on Social Media, twitter and posted it on Social Media, twitter would and posted it on Social Media, twitter would have and posted it on Social Media, twitter would have taken and posted it on Social Media, twitter would have taken it. And posted it on Social Media,. Twitter would have taken it down within twitter would have taken it down within seconds. Twitter would have taken it down within seconds. So twitter would have taken it down within seconds. So this twitter would have taken it down within seconds. So this feeling, i within seconds. So this feeling, particularly within seconds. So this feeling, particularly amongst within seconds. So this feeling, particularly amongst players,. Within seconds. So this feeling, i particularly amongst players, that they are particularly amongst players, that they are hot particularly amongst players, that they are not acting particularly amongst players, that they are not acting quickly particularly amongst players, that. They are not acting quickly enough. But they also use Social Media and they do see theres an upside to it. I just think a lot of newspapers wouldnt, for example, have written an awful lot about a footballer� s charity, whereas now we can see they can directly use Social Media to talk about that. The players are very acute on that. After the match, i got messages from players that were slightly worried about the narrative playing out. About what had happened during the game about what had happened during the game so about what had happened during the game so dont about what had happened during the game. So dont think about what had happened during the game. So dont think that about what had happened during the game. So dont think that the about what had happened during the game. So dont think that the two i game. So dont think that the two sides. Game. So dont think that the two sides. The game. So dont think that the two sides, the social game. So dont think that the two sides, the Social Media game. So dont think that the two sides, the Social Media and game. So dont think that the two. Sides, the Social Media and players, dont sides, the Social Media and players, dont work sides, the Social Media and players, dont work together sides, the Social Media and players, dont work together on sides, the Social Media and players, dont work together on these. Henry, would players actually ask you, how do you think this tweet will play out . Should i say something on Social Media about this . Ive written tweets for players. Im sure everyone ive written tweets for players. Im sure everyone on ive written tweets for players. 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With his players when they were raciaity with his players when they were racially abused with his players when they were racially abused all with his players when they were racially abused all over with his players when they were racially abused all over europe, | with his players when they were racially abused all over europe, and we know racially abused all over europe, and we know that racially abused all over europe, and we know that these racially abused all over europe, and we know that these players racially abused all over europe, and we know that these players are racially abused all over europe, and i we know that these players are going to walk we know that these players are going to walk off we know that these players are going to walk off the we know that these players are going to walk off the pitch we know that these players are going to walk off the pitch because we know that these players are going to walk off the pitch because they to walk off the pitch because they are disgusted to walk off the pitch because they are disgusted at to walk off the pitch because they are disgusted at the to walk off the pitch because they are disgusted at the racist to walk off the pitch because they are disgusted at the racist abuse. J are disgusted at the racist abuse. It are disgusted at the racist abuse. It has are disgusted at the racist abuse. It has been are disgusted at the racist abuse. It has been going are disgusted at the racist abuse. It has been going on are disgusted at the racist abuse. It has been going on for are disgusted at the racist abuse. It has been going on for 30, are disgusted at the racist abuse. It has been going on for 30, 40 l it has been going on for 30, 40 years i think its an excellent point because it brings up on this idea that we tap into, that there is a contradiction in Social Media. It does connect us all. It can be used as a force for good, but at the same time, it can spread abuse and disinformation. Sheera frenkel and Cecilia Kang have been investigating facebook for years and they not written about it. Cecilia, i was fascinated by the access you must have had. Two facebook employees. You said in the book that you spoke to about 400 of them. You write about how so many of them have nondisclosure agreements, and we know about that. You said some of them were putting their careers at risk. Even fearing reprisals. Yet youve managed to give us a Ringside Seat on a lot of the biggest crises in facebook over the last five years. There have been quite a few. Why did people speak to you . I wonder if youre a New York times journalist and you pick up the phone and say hello, do you want to chat, they would run a mile. How did you do it . I think a lot want to see change. Theyre not unhappy with the company per se, but theyre unhappy with the decisions made by the top leaders, Mark Zuckerberg and. A lot of the people who talked to us werent a lot of the people who talked to us werent necessarily willing and volunteering to talk to us. We had to take volunteering to talk to us. We had to take and volunteering to talk to us. We had to take and take and dig, but many of those to take and take and dig, but many of those people felt compelled to talk to of those people felt compelled to talk to us, especially over 2020 where talk to us, especially over 2020 where There Wasjust Talk to us, especially over 2020 where there was just so talk to us, especially over 2020 where there wasjust so much talk to us, especially over 2020 where there was just so much to talk to us, especially over 2020 where there wasjust so much to melt the head where there wasjust so much to melt the head of where there wasjust so much to melt the head of the us election and they were seen the head of the us election and they were seen President Trump really test the were seen President Trump really test the site, Test Policies come across test the site, Test Policies come across many lines, Notjust In Policy across many lines, Notjust In Policy but across many lines, Notjust In Policy but ethics. People want to see change. Facebook has this narrative. A lot of the people who spoke to us were disgruntled or mad. Perhaps they were fired. Its not true. Many of the people are there still. The majority of the people are still there and want to see change. Theyre speaking to us not because theyre angry or they feel like theyve been demoted or anything. Its because they feel like, by speaking to us, its the only way the curtain can be pulled back behind a company that is so incredibly powerful. The most ubiquitous Communications Tool in the most ubiquitous Communications Tool in the the most ubiquitous Communications Tool in the world. Affects sports fans. Tool in the world. Affects sports fans, governments, people in so many countries, fans, governments, people in so many countries, 3jr fans, governments, people in so many countries, 3. 4 billion across all of its apps. Countries, 3. 4 billion across all of its apps, which include whatsapp and instagram~ its apps, which include whatsapp and instagram. They want to make sure that this instagram. They want to make sure that this tool is used in a way that is healthy that this tool is used in a way that is healthy and safe for people around is healthy and safe for people around the world, and democracy. Sheera, ijust want to pick up on one of your books examples. You talk about the 6th of january, the storming of the capital. Just tell us what facebook knew and when about what was happening that day . The day after the vote here in the united states, people started to form a Facebook Group called stop the steel, where they were telling americans that the election had been stolen. So they knew that this momentum had real power, and in the months leading up to january the 6th, they watched as that movement became more and more extreme. The day before the january six rights happened, journalists including myself send them e mails with photographs of Assault Rifles that were being posted to facebook pages, and saying, are you going to take these pages down . What is your plan here . Thats part of what he wanted to document, what was their plan . I think people reading the book will be shocked to find there was no plan. You write in the book that executives considered getting Mark Zuckerberg to get in touch with donald trump, but they didnt. Why not . They were worried it would leak to the press. Many things did in 2020, as cecilia said. People were unhappy with the leadership decisions, and they felt if Mark Zuckerberg called trump, he would be seen as complicit. We do have a quick Facebook Spokesman that said our team were vigilant in the content that violated our policies leading up to january the 6th. They have took Down Tens Of Thousands of qanon pages, groups and accounts from their app. Cecilia, after the riot, President Trump was banned by facebook, but how did the company come to that decision . Well, there was a lot of internal debate on what to do with President Trump. Of course, this was after a whole four years of trump testing the site. And a lot of the policies. They finally decided to not necessarily, not actually permanently ban him, but give him essentially a timeout, a two week you cannot be on the site. Lets take this final decision to what they created, which is a facebook oversight board. They describe it as a supreme Court Body that makes decisions on content moderation. And by doing that, they were essentially kicking the can down the road. They were absolving themselves of having to make a really tough political decision. Oversight board kicked that decision back to facebook, and it was very smart because they said you cant possibly expect us to make a final call on President Trump when you dont even have policies put in place. You dont have actual laws, internal rules, and how you deal with figures like trump. Figure that out first and make your decision, is what they said. So its back in facebooks hands. Theres a recurring theme. Steve hoffman was clear he didnt want to make editorial decisions himself. It seems youre saying facebook has a similar policy. If Tech Giants dont want to do this, who should . Of course Tech Giants dont want to do it. Its not good business for them to make editorial decisions. Its much easier to take an approach that platforms should be regulated, government should come up with regulation, because they know that most governments across the world are not very sophisticated in how they think about regulation. If a government creates a rule that facebook can have specific types of speech on the platform, that gives facebook a line in the sand that it has to adhere to. And doesnt have to make the difficult decisions on its own. One thing that i was struck by earlier in facebooks statements was how similar it was to what we catalogue on the back of the book, the Apologies Facebook has been making for over a decade. It is still making, and in some places, the language is almost identical. Theres so much more we could talk about, but im afraid thats it for today. Thank you very much to all my guess. Sheera frenkel and Cecilia Kang, toJoey Durso and to henry winter. Ill be back same time next week. Goodbye. For many of us, this is the hottest Weather Weve seen so far this year. Yesterday, we had the highest temperature recorded in wales and scotland. Temperatures actually this afternoon are very similar in wales so that mark could be beaten. And in killowen in northern ireland, its two degrees warmer than it was yesterday 29. 6, the new high for the year. Overnight tonight, its going to stay dry for the majority of us, and as you are going to bed these are not the minimum temperatures but the bed time temperatures at 11pm. You can see the cities. 22 in birmingham, 23 for london and cardiff. It will be quite an uncomfortable Nights Sleep here. A little bit fresher further north, and also in rural areas. Tomorrow, there will be some respite from the heat across the north west. Some fresher air will be working in around our area of high pressure, bringing some patchy cloud with it. And temperatures are just easing down into the low 20s. Still warm in Thejuly Sunshine but the heat is really that bit further south where we will see temperatures up to 31 in london. This is Bbc News with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. More than 150 people have now died in severe floods across Western Europe with hundreds of people remaining unaccounted for. The german president has been visiting one of the stricken areas. And im here where the president was visiting one of the worst affected towns that hit western germany. The Uks Health Secretary Sajid Javid says he has tested positive for coronavirus and is experiencing mild symptoms