Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. In our culture of 24 7 news and trending Social Media reactions, it sometimes takes a novelist� s eye to chart the deeper currents swirling beneath societys surface. My Guest Today relishes entering choppy waters and swimming against the cultural tide. Lionel shriver is a british based american writer Whose Fiction has addressed school shootings, obesity, economic crisis and, in her latest book, voluntary euthanasia. She is a contrarian, but is she also a combatant in the western Worlds Culture wars . Lionel shriver in new york, welcome to hardtalk. Its a pleasure to talk to you. Its a pleasure to have you on the show. Would it be fair to Say, judging from your recent writing, that your creative mind is increasingly preoccupied with ageing and with thoughts of mortality . Um. Short answer, yes. Long answer, i think ive always had a morbid streak and also a strange consciousness of ageing. My first novel was written about a protagonist who was 59 years old and i look back on that rather comically because i thought that was old. Well, you know, i hope its not ungallant to Say that you have crossed the 59 Year Threshold a few years ago. But. Alas, yes. Yeah. But the novel that youve just released, should we stay or should we go, it centres on two characters who we meet when i think theyre in their late 50s. But we then follow them through after they make a decision. That is Cyril And Kay wilkinson, they make a decision that when they get to 80, or at least when kay, whos the younger one, when she gets to 80 years old, theyre going to kill themselves to ensure that they neverfall into agonising dementia and physical decay. Why did you play with that idea . Well, i was first inspired by a stray remark by a friend of mine who announced, with some conviction, that she had no desire to live beyond the age of 80, after which things seem to be going downhill, and i was curious whether or not she would be proactive once she actually got to the age of 80 or would laugh at her silly younger self and carry on indefinitely. And, you know, ithink it throws up a lot of interesting moral and emotional questions. I mean, the couple in the novel, who both work for the nhs, have a lot of social consciousness as a result, and dont want to cost the nhs too much money as they age. And theyve also watched Kays Father deteriorate from dementia into a person that doesnt resemble the estimable father she grew up with. And its all very well to make a vow when youre in your 50s that once you get to this unimaginable age that youll call it quits. Once youre really up against it, its a different question. Yeah. But, of course, for none of us at all is this just theoretical. Its real life for all of us, because not only are we ageing, but those of us who are lucky enough to still have parents around, we see them advancing in years as well. And i know this is personal for you because youve written about the fact that your parents, and particularly your mother is struggling a great deal with dementia. I think shes about to turn 90. So was that something very much in your mind as you wrote this . 0h, certainly whats happening with my parents has played a part in my interest. I mean, afterall, we. Thats what we go through. If were fortunate enough to have parents who, you know, last, then we also often have to go through the misfortune of watching them deteriorate. And that is very emotional, notjust because, you know, generally we care about them and treasure our images of our parents in their prime, but also its, obviously, the writing on the wall. When you watch your parents get old, its usually the first time you register on a really Gut Level that its going to happen to you. You, ithink, Relish Plain speaking, so im going to ask you a very direct question. When you talk about your mum and you Say that, you know, she is physically very disabled now, shes incontinent, she barely recognises anybody. And im asking this in the context of your novel. Do you think that it would be better if she were able to end her own life as she wishes at the time of her own choosing . Well, one of the. One of the difficulties of making these kinds of plans or vows on your own behalf is the kind of circumstance my mother finds herself in. She had a terrible stroke in 2015 and shes not really in any condition to make a decision like that. No doctor would take seriously an announcement from her that she had had enough. In fact, she often declares that. That shes ready to die. Actually, the most profound thing i heard her Say was that, i dont want to die, but i need to die. But then she doesnt. And the. The body is just incredible, right . It really does just chug on and it wants to survive. And i think that, you know, because my work has often looked at the relationship between self and body, thats one of the curious things about ageing and deteriorating is that, whatever you may feel, you know, however enthusiastic or not you may be about continuing, the body wants to live, the body wants to survive, and the body doesnt get bored, the body doesnt feel unsatisfied with its life. So then, lionel shriver, its a battle between the mind and the body. And youre a woman of very strong mind and, thank god, Able Bodied, but are you, right now in your 60s, contemplating, like the character in your novel, stashing away a supply of deadly drugs so that there might come a time when you would Say to yourself, i want, while i can, i want to end my life before it becomes agonising and counterproductive . Well, i havent, like my characters, actually stashed a little Black Box at the top of the refrigerator. Um. But i. I can see the attraction of. Of feeling that you have some kind of control, not necessarily to leave the building whenever the least discomfort strikes, but to feel that they can exercise some kind of agency. And, you know, we seem to be, especially in britain, terribly paranoid about the so called slippery slope, but what we would discover if we changed the law is not that we have this cascade of people queuing up to kill themselves, but how few would actually take advantage of such a law. Its intriguing to me that you wrote this novel clearly during the early phases, perhaps, of the pandemic and the pandemic is sort of a theme that runs through the book as these two people who worked in the nhs See Thousands dying around them and theyve already made a pact to kill themselves, even though theyre perfectly Able Bodied themselves. How has the pandemic affected you personally . I mean, did you find writing during a pandemic a very different experience . Well, of course, there was, you know, loads of time and no interruptions so, in some ways, it was perfect for a writer. I mean, writers worth their salt would probably enjoy being in lockdown indefinitely. Iwas. I was a little disturbed by how little my life changed because i stay home a lot anyway. Um. You mean Self Isolation is your natural state, is that what youre Saying . It is indeed. Yeah. And i got out of all those parties. It didnt really upset me. I mostly found the pandemic disturbing on a political level, because i think, you know, weve never responded to a disease by locking down all of society and telling healthy people they couldnt leave their home and enforcing it with the police. But there was a reason why liberties were curtailed. It wasnt simply because we have governors who want to repress us. It was for the collective good. There was something very collective about the response to the pandemic. Did you not, in some ways, think that highly admirable . No, ididn� t. I thought it was a panic response. Imitative on a governmental level, it was imitating other countries and it set a gruesome precedent for the future. After all, we now have an understanding that if there is any perceived communal need, then we can rescind civil rights, and indefinitely. And every kind of civil right, including the right to protest that you dont want your civil rights taken away. Its interesting that you are known for your novels and theyve been very successful notjust in the english speaking world, but beyond, but in some ways right now you seem more energised correct me if im wrong by your role as a sort of outspoken provocateur in magazines, newspaper columns. I dont know how much you use Social Media, but you really get your opinions out there. Do you think that, in some ways, is more culturally influential than your novels . Im sad to Say. Probably. Certainly my Fiction Career is more important to me, and i think that if my novels do endure, they have a better chance of lasting culturally than anything i write in non fiction. On the other hand, not that many people read novels, honestly, so that the audience for columns and Comment Pieces is. Right, but i wonder if, you know, this word i used, provocateur, that once you take that course, go down that track, of course you have to have opinions that do stir up a reaction, that provoke people, and maybe you relish that. Now, imjust looking at some Stuff Youve written recently or said recently about immigration. You know, youve talked about this, not being something one is supposed to Say, but the experience of being taken over you meant by immigrants is not that different from a military takeover. Some people will celebrate the end of white hegemony. Maybe that is great, but im one of those white people, and its hard to celebrate with my heart and soul. I mean, that kind of railing against immigration, it is bound to cause great offence, is it not . I think immigration is an issue where people have told that they have to keep their mouths shut. I should clarify that im very big on immigration, if only because i myself am an immigrant to britain. You are. So a small, steady, controlled level of immigration is entirely healthy for any society. It brings fresh blood and new ideas and different perspectives. I have a different view of uncontrolled, mass, largely illegal immigration, and i think a lot of people agree with me. I mean, you talk about the scale of the uks, quote, Ethnic Transformation. You feel and see that, do you . Thats your experience . Well, anyone who lives in london is. Has the Ethnic Transformation of britain up in face, and, no, i just think that cultural change is usually more graceful when it is gradual. And also the degree of transformation in Europe In General is occurring without any consultation with the people who live there. Do you think youve ever taken it too far, your desire to sort of, i suppose, get in peoples faces with your views . Im thinking particularly, this goes a way back now, but i think five years ago you went to australia to talk at a literary festival and you donned a sombrero for some of that speech to make a point of, i suppose, mocking the decision in an american college to reprimand some students for holding a mexican Tequila Party wearing sombreros, so you chose to wear a sombrero, and then you made a speech in which you hoped that the notion of cultural appropriation In Fiction was a fad, and that caused a real storm. Did you go over the top, do you think . No, i dont think so. I mean, first of all, i should clarify that that speech is widely misreported, and i wore a sombrero for exactly the last two words of that lecture. So it was just a little touch. And then it gets widely reported that i wore it for the entire speech, which i find offensive mostly on a theatrical level. I mean, thats. That would be bad drama. I dont take back anything i said in that speech, which i dont think was especially radical. Ido. I had been hoping that cultural appropriation as a taboo was a fad, and its. I havent taken that back. I think it probably is, but its lasting longer than i hoped. And, just briefly, especially In Fiction writing, i believe that if you are not given permission to inhabit the lives of people different from yourself, then there is no fiction. And i Cant Help but see that as a loss because i am a fiction writer. It is fascinating territory, sensitive territory. I mean, your contention is that you are going to write fiction, you are going to continue to write with all sorts of different voices, using your imagination to inhabit worlds, you know, maybe of a young black woman or a Black Man or an indigenous person from australia. Im just guessing, i dont know, but there are no limits, no fetters on your Ability And Right to imagine yourself into any situation, into any other person, right . Thats what you feel. Broadly, yes, and then, you know, the reader is welcome tojudge whether i did a good job and whether this person is plausible. The upset caused by that, and im just going to quote to you the words of one member of the audience who walked out, whos an australian writer, Yassmin Abdel magied. There was only one member who walked out, which got a Lot Of Press. Yeah, sure. She got a Lot Of Press because she took seriously and thought seriously about what you said and she was appalled by it, you know, and she said that the reality is that those from marginalised groups, even today, dont get the luxury of defining their own place in a norm that is profoundly white, straight and often patriarchal. And she felt you were not allowing for that deep inequality that exists in the voices in literature, as in so many other parts of society. I dont think anything i said in that speech or outside it has suggested. Has damaged marginalised peoples in the slightest. Im just arguing for freedom of imagination for everyone. And that includes non white writers writing about white people. I dont want to cling to my culture and Say, you know, oh, you know, i have german heritage and you cant listen to beethoven. Thats absurd. I want us to all relax and share what we know. Right. And extend ourselves to each other. Thats obviously one of the things that fiction is good for. But i guess. I guess your critics in the so called progressive or woke community or whatever one calls it, but people who culturally are on a different side to you, they Say, well, thats all fine, but you have to look at the realities, the systems and where Power And Control lies in Culture And Society today. And why not spend more time trying to address the structural inequalities . And they would then point to what you said after big Publishing House Penguin random house said that it was going to make its authors and staff members reflect more closely the uks demographic balance across ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc, and you said that was completely unacceptable. And you said that it was going to be a complete sort of block on creativity. Why . Why is it . Why cant there be efforts made to increase diversity . I have no problem with efforts made to increase diversity. Ijust dont like racial quotas. I dont like quotas of any kind. And i Value Excellence above diversity, and i know that thats become a controversial position, but i think publishing companies should make decisions about what to sell to the public, primarily according to whether the book is any good and whether or not there is a market for that book. Let me ask you this. Are there creative sort of projects that you have considered that you will now no longer work on because you fear the sensitivities are just too hot, the backlash likely to be too difficult for you to deal with. No, i dont have any subjects that i feel are off limits because theyre going to get me into trouble. There are subjects that im likely to avoid because im just not going to do a good enoughjob or the idea i get for the novel is insufficient to make a good book. I mean, thats how i make my decisions. Its just im interested, not long ago, you were asked the question, would you write a novel with a black protagonist at the centre of it, and you said, i should feel perfectly happy about that idea, but i bet i never do it. It strikes me as too dangerous. If i had a really great idea for a book and it had to have a black protagonist, i would give myself permission to do that. But i would not do so naively and i would know that i would be subject to a certain amount of scrutiny. And i find that having to anticipate that kind of scrutiny is disappointing. Its one of the difficulties of my era. And, you know, its harder to be a novelist than it used to be. Right, last question. Some people who rail against Quote Unquote woke culture, they Say that, you know, its become a cancel culture, but it strikes me people like you are very far from being cancelled. You have a very prominent voice in the cultural life of the uk and the us as well right now. There isnt a cancel culture, is there . Well, im afraid there is. There are any number of people who have lost theirjobs because of minor political perceived indiscretions. I have never complained that i have personally been subjected to some kind of cancellation. Ive stirred up some hornet� s nests on twitter, but im not even on twitter, so i havent had to subject myself to them. So, you know, ithink ive been fortunate. I have personally never felt that what i Say has been restricted. But i should clarify that the primary reason that im still here and still talking to you is that my publishing company, harpercollins, and the likes of the spectator, which publishes my column fortnightly, have stuck by me and have never told me there are things i can and cannot Say. They havent denounced me if i get bad press and i would like to see some more of that kind of courage at an institutional level. The whole so called cancel Culture Problem is not really rooted in Social Media and with a bunch of activists who get upset at anything, but with people in positions of authority who run scared, are terrified of controversy and dont stick by their employees or their faculty or their writers. And thats the solution to any problem of cancel culture. Lionel shriver, we have to end there, but i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. Thank you. I enjoyed talking to you. Hello there. Weve seen yet more rain across many parts of the country in the past 2a hours. And the reason its been so wet, really, for so long is because of the position of the jet stream, thats the upper level winds. And as its diving to the south of the uk, with that sort of pattern, you end up with low pressure sitting close to the uk. And its around that low pressure that we see these areas of cloud rotating, keeping some wet weather going into the night and into wednesday, as well. If we look at the story over the next few days, we find some sunshine, yes, but theres still the threat of some showers which may be heavy, as well. And certainly on tuesday, there was lots of rain at wimbledon. It looks a lot drier though for Wednesday Cant rule out 1 2 showers, mind you, and temperatures will be 20 21 celsius. We start the day pretty cloudy, actually, there may well be some further rain around. As It Brightens Up, we get some sunshine which triggers more showers, particularly across england and wales, and some of those could be heavy and thundery. May see a few showers breaking out across parts of scotland and Northern Ireland. A warmer day, though, than it was on tuesday for Eastern Scotland and the northeast of england. And for many parts of the country, temperatures are a little bit higher on wednesday. A few showers in the london area, those will tend to fade away during the evening, and itll probably be dry at wembley for Kick Off with Ideal Temperatures for playing football. As we move into thursday, many places starting dry, some sunshine breaking through. Again, well see some showers developing too. These will be a little more hit and miss, but It Brightens Up in Eastern Scotland, we could get some heavy showers here. The rest of scotland and Northern Ireland looks more cloudy and not as warm, perhaps, but with the sunshine in england and wales, it should feel a bit warmer with Light Winds on thursday. Weve got slightly higher pressure to end the week the fly in the ointment is this little Weather Front here that keeps more cloud across Northern Ireland, eventually increasing the cloud across wales and the southwest, bringing some rain later on in the day. Ahead of it, some sunshine coming through, still the chance of some showers. These are most likely in Eastern Scotland and across the eastern side of england. But many places on friday will have a dry day. And those temperatures sitting at 22 23 celsius. Now i dont think those numbers will change a great deal into the weekend. There will still be some sunshine around, but we still have this threat of some showers and the greater risk of showers is likely to be on sunday. This is bbc news, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. New york� s governor declares a � disaster emergency� following a sharp rise in Gun Violence. It is so bad that when you look at the recent numbers, more people are dying of Gun Violence than of covid. As nato withdraws, Afghan Security Forces insist their soldiers have not defected to the taliban. By by no means has anyone defected to the taliban. They may have abandoned their post, as they are no longer able to fight, but they have come back