Now on bbc news, the media show. Hello. Have we got a scoop for you. Bbc bags top Newspaper Execs to discuss all things tabloid and Mass Market. The headline have our red tops got their mojo back . The suns Front Page last week that ended Matt Hancocks cabinet career, at least for now, was a classic splash not seen too often since the Phone Hacking Scandal. It had it all an illicit relationship, hypocrisy, and alleged cronyism. A Dynamite Combination that ultimately cost Mr Hancock his job. Maybe the ingredients werent quite right when it came to other recent scoops like the mirrors Dominic Cummings Trip to barnard castle, or the daily Mails Investigation into Covid And Care homes. No heads rolled after those exclusives. But is there now a sense, despite issues over circulation and revenues, that Fleet Street is back to its pugnacious best . Well, i told you we had a scoop. Three of the biggest beasts in fleet Street Nowjoin us for their media show debuts. Take a bow, victoria newton, editor in chief of the Sun And Sun on sunday. Hi, victoria. Hello. Hiya a classic Tabloid Pun on your front of the day after englands footballers beat germany 55 years of hurt never stopped us raheem ing. How long did it take to come up with that one . Well, we have the best Headline Writers in the world on our back bench. It took them about two seconds. Brilliant stuff tobyn andrae, Deputy Editor of the Daily Mail. Tobyn, great to have you here. Good afternoon. Yeah, your paper is printed in a tabloid format. So you are a tabloid writer, are you still a bit sniffy over there at North Cliff House . Not in the least. No, weve been great supporters of the popular market and newspapers right across the board. Nice one, tobyn. And emily sheffield, editor of the Evening Standard. Hi there, emily. Hi, how are you . Im very well, thank you. Youre celebrating your one Year Anniversary this year. Congratulations, as editor. Your predecessor, george osborne, dropped the word london from the london Evening Standard. Now, my mum in derbyshire what would she find interesting in the Londoners Diary or my London Section at the back of the magazine . You cant be trying to make it out to be a national publication, are you . No, quite the opposite, since i took over, ive doubled down on all things london. Excellent. All right, 0k, older londoners might not be too happy about that. The suns hancock scoop. We have to get to that, havent we . Thats the only place to start. Already a contender for story of the year, the paper showed Matt Hancock in a steamy clinch, liaison, whatever you want to call it with his aide, gina coladangelo. And the images appear to have been taken from Cctv Footage filmed in Mr Hancocks government office. Victoria newton, Simple Question how did The Sun get the story . We were contacted by Whistle Blower who said he had information about Mr Hancock having an illicit affair with an aide. And the Whistle Blower was outraged at his behaviour there are parts of that I Cant tell you why but the hypocrisy, he felt he was seeing, was that this is a man who had been on national television, stare down the barrel of the Tv Lens and said, you must stay at home, protect lives, and protect The Nhs and wed had 18 months of social distancing rules that he himself was not following. So that was how the Whistle Blower got in touch with us. Did you have any qualms about the story and, in particular, using the video . Yes, of course. I mean, we believe in responsiblejournalism, and my first thought when this information came in was, my goodness, can this be real . Can he really be doing that at 3pm in the afternoon . I literally couldnt believe it. So, we have loads of checks and balances that we have to follow procedurally. We got our legal team involved immediately, to get advice from them before we went any further, and then, obviously once wed seen the footage for ourselves, we were careful to match up images of Matt And Gina together on their day to day working lives and to really make sure that it was definitely her. I mean, it was 100 Matt Hancock as soon as i saw it, i knew that as soon as you watch the video, his mannerisms and everything, there was no doubt. But then we had to go through all the legal procedures to make sure we were in a good position to run the story. Has your collar been felt by the police or Secret Service about how you got the footage . No. Laughter. Yet . Not yet but if it is, im perfectly happy with how we conducted the story, how we ran it, and, you know, we consulted with top lawyers before we went ahead with publication. You mentioned the Whistle Blower, what steps have you taken to protect that source . I mean, did you warn them about possible repercussions and all that . Yes, of course, we would always do that, we would never reveal a source. Ive done everything i can to protect that person. And id rather go to jail than hand the name over. Right, 0k. Im sure the source is pleased to hear that. Phone hacking scandal, nothing to do with you, nothing to do with The Sun it was the news of the world, and that is defunct but did the Phone Hacking Scandal give you pause for thought over using that footage leaked from a private office . Privacy is always going to be an issue, but the overwhelming public interest was blindingly obvious from the start. I almost didnt need a lawyer to tell me that. I could just see it for myself. But, of course, that whole period, things have moved on since then, and we are a hugely compliant company, and there are lots of checks and balances in place, and we all have training. So i dont think were in the same place we were then. But The Public Interest to me was so overwhelming notjust the hypocrisy of the social distancing, but the massive question it threw up was, was he in a relationship with this woman when he hired her . And he still hasnt really answered that question publicly. Hes only admitted to the social distancing breach. And i think were still all waiting to hear from him on that one. Yeah, i mean, the public Interest Point you make there, very compelling. But two marriages are now in trouble, children are involved. Would you have run the story involving the Health Secretary if there was no pandemic . Thats an interesting question. I think we probably would, because i would be looking at the issue around when he hired her, wed have to be clear on that, i guess. And, as for the issue of the families, we went to great Lengths None of the children were named in the story. After Day One of the story, i took our photographers and reporters off that home address, youll find other papers that still carried on running pictures, i chose not to, of the wife. The public interest in the story was so overwhelming that i think weve handled it really well. Emily, if i can turn to you, after the story broke, you ran a Front Page in the standard featuring a very large picture of Mr Hancocks wife, martha. Why did you decide to focus on that side of the story . Because she was going to take the direct hit from the revelations. Our headline was very much about what he would be underfire for, and, following very much what victoria said, this was clearly public interest. We also remain. We think big questions remain was he in a relationship already when he hired her . And we debated actually for an incredibly long time, and its always the stories that break when you are in the middle of something else i was actually in the middle of doing some filming, i wasnt on edition. I was having to move, i was on whatsapp. Our information was, and i went back and forth about this, and I Cant give too much detail, is that maybe she was not entirely adverse to being photographed. Right. 0k. Er, can you elucidate a little . No. She wanted to get her side of the story up there. I dont want to elucidate. All right. We do go into a lot of particularly, my early decision was not to put her on the front. Interesting. Were pretty careful. I think all of us, as editors, very much feel the right people should be taking the public hit. Right, 0k. Of course, Martha Isnt here to give her side of the story, but we hear what youre saying. Tobyn, you also ran stories on Mr Hancocks wife, as well. Why did you go down that road . Well, i think in the case of the story, she is absolutely at the heart of it, as well, because aside from the political scandal and the implications that come from that, it is a very human portrayala, as well, and i think actually theres no. Reader who would have anything but the utmost sympathy| for a woman her position. So, we did cover that. We looked very carefully at how we would go about that. And we have every Sympathy And Support for her. But as you say, theres a question about going forward, would we carry on doing that . I hope she has the space now to rebuild her life i and her childrens. Lives as he chooses. Absolutely. Victoria, youve talked about not focusing too much on martha in the days after the brilliant scoop, but you did set a Hare Running there, and emily decides what shell do and tobyn and his folks will decide what theyll do, but you set the Hare Running. Do you feel comfortable about that when it comes to the kids and martha . Theres always the decision you have to make when you weigh up to the public commission to have a right to know how the Health Secretary has been behaving versus the right to privacy of his family. Ifelt strongly, and i think everybody agree with me, the lord chiefjustice, the justice secretary, the lord chancellors all agree the story was in The Public Interest. So, thats what you weight up on a daily basis on stories. Yeah, of course. Lets broaden in the discussion. Tobyn, the mail turns a century and a quarter old this year. Sum up its role in the public life during the digital age. Well, i think fundamentally, its role is to give a voice to the voiceless, to campaign vigorously for the causes and beliefs that lie at its heart, and fundamentally to entertain, engage, i inform its readers and, of course, above all, try and sell as many newspapers as we can or attract as many eyeballs as we can online i while sticking to our| journalistic integrity, our beliefs, and the passion would try and bring to every story, whether its light or shade. The great newspapers, the great interviewers humphreys, paxman, dimbleby they sniff out lies, hypocrisy, unfairness, corruption. Does that sum up, do you think, part of the role of the mail in society . Absolutely. Following on from the matt. Hancock story, we had a bold Front Page with, how can he cling on . Which i think is peoples instinctive reaction, other than bizarrelyl the Prime Minister and former Health Secretary. So i think it is headlines like that, projected with vigour that do bring about change in this. Case, political change. But theres other stories that we have covered,. Whether its dementia care, ppe, that we project with confidence, we get. To the heart of the story, and we can make a real impact and bring about| change for the better, which we are very proud of doing. Ive mentioned your work on Covid And Care homes, which was superb. The previous editor before geordie greg, 2016 he had the headline, enemies of the people, and pictures of three high courtjudges. Would you have that on the Front Page today . I suspect not. Every editor makes. Her own judgements. Of course, its always great to be wise with hindsight. I would paul have used the same headline again . I Cant Speak for him. He was a tremendously. Gifted editor from whom i learned an awful lot. I but its a fast paced newsroom, i sometimes mistakes do get made. I Cant Promise they wont ever get made again. Thats part of the Risk L that we take every day. And we should not be afraid of being challenging when we do that. Given the Mission Statement that you laid out a few seconds ago, that headline and that Front Page didnt seem to fall into those categories, did it, really . Well, it provoked a very strong reaction, not all of it positive. But we moved forward. Theres a new editor at the helm, has a different way of editing the paper. But that doesnt take awayl from the astonishing legacy that paul left behind. The mail seems to be comfortable kicking down as well as punching up. Youll go after those who are not necessarily powerful or part of the establishment. Are benefit cheats, for example, as Fair Game as Matt Hancock . Theyre in a different categorx but i think anyone who cheats the system or who breaks the law risks being held to account by the standards that apply both in public life. And in personal responsibility. Theyre obviously of. A different magnitude of offence, and hopefully we will balance that out. And away the stories are presented in the paper. Victoria, The Suns not opposed to kicking down . Im not sure thats entirely fair. I think i edit the paper in a different way to some of my predecessors. I make it my conscious decision to work with people on stories a lot of the time, and i have brilliant relationships with many celebrities and their agents, and i think we do a lot. Were turning into a positive force for good. So many campaigns weve done during the pandemic have been massively in The Public Interest. For example, we got 50,000 readers to volunteer to help staff the Vaccination Centres with ourjabs army campaign. We are a tremendous force for good. And i think the other point i wanted to make, going back to your other question was really interesting that, six weeks before the pandemic started, i took over. It was quite a different experience, being an editor. One of the things i noticed was the huge appetite from the public for information about this terrible coronavirus, so you saw a huge uplift in Newspaper Sales and digitally, traffic was through the roof. And people were desperate for information and they turned to us newspaper brands and trusted sources. And hand in glove with that, you have the government coming to us saying, we really need your help to get this public Service Message out there. So this sort of feeds back into the questions you were asking at the beginning about the role of Mass Market brands and the pandemic has proved how vitally important we are. Absolutely right. As Mass Market brands, you can get that message out to as many people as possible in one go. Emily, the Evening Standards had a long established relationship with the conservatives. And the Conservative Party. George osborne was editor in chief. Is it a political paper . Very political. We are influential in westminster. Only a year ago, we were voted the most read by mps. I think thats got a lot to do with our physical presence in westminster. You literally cannot escape us. Copies are taken by the Westminster Doorkeeper to the Tea Room and other strategic locations when you walk out as an mp or a aide theyre there at the member store, in the tube station, if you take a taxi at the member store, and members entrances, theres a big pile. Are sitting in the underground car park. Within westminster we are widely read, very influential, we are breaking often the time they get to us is between 1. 30 and 2pm, and they have got big statements to make that afternoon come off big debates. I mean, i remember on the first day i arrived here which was injuly, ijoined like victoria did you join during the Pandemic Orjust before . Ijoined after the first big lockdown. On my very first day, i had to do the paper and put that the bed and then go straight to westminster to interview Boris Johnson with our brilliant editor. As his aide came out the door to meet us, she had a copy of the standard tucked under her arm, i was standing A Little Bit behind joe, so i dont think she saw me. I know a few slightly bad temper words were expressed about our this leader when he had done that they are Boris Johnsons the handling of the pandemic. Are you a political paper for the Conservative Party . No. I think we would change depending on who we wanted or her we thought was best to leave the country. We didnt come out forjeremy corbyn. I dont remember many newspapers doing that. Even the guardian didnt do that. Even the guardian. We did by, the way, way before my time, come out for tony blair. No, i would absolutely take each election depending on who we thought was the right person, that our readers thought as well to take the country forward in the best possible way. And that is the same for the mayor. Tobyn, the hope is any school, especially political ones, will have real impact. Ones, will have real impact and force change. They are notjust there to win awards. Is that more difficult in an era politicians tend to try to tough things out . Shame, one would say, doesnt come as easily to public figures these days. In a way, that comes back to the point i was talking i about earlier, which is that, l in regards to the met Hancock Story, clearly if you had been taken in Downing Street which is symptomatic. Of a wider feeling i think in Downing Street, that they are going to try and out ride the media. Theyll carry on doing what they want, not to be held to account by The Press or by broadcast media. | i think they were proved humiliatingly wrong in this instance. The leaders ascross Fleet Street were universally condemnatory, our Front Page, how could he cling on . Lo and behold, within 24 hours, | he had enforced up if there hadj been the hope i think in Downing Street, no Great Secret that it would be a three Day Story and we would move i on but they were very wrong. And they paid a heavy| political price for that. Victoria, do you think its trickier for scoops to really land these days, because of what some people suggest is an age where there is no shame any more . I dont know. I think some of the or the other stores you referred to like the scandal around whether Priti Patel bullied her staff, you have the jenrick scandal. That was complicated. A lot of detail. In terms of Priti Patel, it wasnt something that affected the whole country. It was a row about how she was treating civil servants. It didnt affect everybody up and down the country in the way this story did. That is why got the cut through because lockdown has affected every single One Of Us in the Way Nobody has ever lived through anything like this. That is the difference i think. 0k. Im interested now and how scoops might help the bottom line. Victoria, in the olden days, a scoop like yours wouldve had people rushing to the newsstands to get there copy of the newspaper. It did. I suspect there was a lot of traffic to the website, as well. But surely not as much as perhaps you would have got if people bought a physical copy . The physical copies of our paper went up considerably that morning on friday, and also on The Morning Of Sunday Morning which was the day after the race or nation. The People Rest of the new stand to buy more copies. During lockdown times, we havent been able to sell as many copies because shops have been close, thankfully things are opening up now. But digital come fascinating story. That video, when we put the video out there, its been the biggest, most viewed video in The Suns history. I think the reason for that is people really wanted to see for themselves is it true, is it real . Sometimes you can look at a grab at the picture and really wonder what is the circumstances, is it that bad, could it have been faked . And when you watch the video, you know this is real. The traffic to our website and our apps over the whole of that weekend was hugely up. And when i start my day editing the newspaper, the top of my conference listed google search, what is everybody searching for this morning and they looking at on facebook and twitter. That informs where we are. On The Morning Of the Hancock Story on the friday morning, all the top items on google, facebook, twitter all hancock. That is when you know it has national cut through. Did you pay the Whistle Blower . I would not get into that i need to protect them. Why did i bother asking . Nice try. I know, pathetic really. I suppose want to ask you, tobyn, the mail has been targeted by campaigners including stop funding hate. Why do you think that is . Because it has very strong. And powerful views that not everybody agrees with, i much to my amazement. But often they pick wholly the wrong target, the Daily Mail amongst other things when the inaugural. Public service in Journalism Award and the british Journalism Awards this year. We are a tremendous forcel for good, notjust in holding the powerful to account, but in some of the campaigns we have done over the past decade, and in this year with our mail force campaign, which raised over £25 millionl in the space of 12 months, for ppe and computers for disadvantaged children which is an astonishing achievement and a testimony to our readers generosity. I and their sense of engagement with a brand they really trust i and feel as part of the family, notjust another thing they buy, its part of their identity and their belief. And supports them where things are going wrong. And we supply 42 Million pieces of ppe to the Front Line of The Nhs, which i thinkl is a first for a newspaper. Its a powerful campaign. How much money would you have forked over for the Hancock Story . That wouldnt be for me to say. Laughter. Not on this show, anyway. Not on this show, no. Victoria, if you could send the check to my usual address, that would be great. Emily, how reliant are you on commuters returning to the offices, and do you worry about Advertiser Boycotts . Because that is obviously your main source of income. We are we do want commuters to come back. We want our advertisers to feel confident, our Print Advertisers to feel confident that they are being picked up by the usual audience, but we have been doing Home Delivery to 200,000 homes. And we pivoted on the first day of lockdown, which i think is astounding, weve kept on the streets the whole way through this pandemic, through successive lockdowns. And i think there was an incredibly important thing for us to do and, as you mentioned earlier, we are a Thinner Paper at the moment. But we cannot help a pandemic and i think it was incredibly important for all of us here that we never disappeared from the streets. Because i was not editor when we went into lockdown. London was empty, we were in the most scary situation, looking at what was happening in italy. And i have grown up with the Evening Standard and, rather like the red dress, it is like a Legacy Symbol of london. If we have disappeared, that wouldve been terrible. We have taken a financial hit but we are seeing our advertisers coming back, some of them are still being hit by the pandemic, travel, we have big Advertisement Advertisement from travel. But we are really confident they all want to return and the people will return to its normal thickness. But we, at the same time, are pivoting more digital. We are seeing much of a younger audience reading digital only. Our revenues there have grown dramatically, so has audience since i was able to put all my restructures in from The End of october, we have gained an extra Eight Million unique viewers from month on month. It is going well. It is great that the paper continues to get out there on the streets during the pandemic, very quick question, victoria. Has rupert been in touch . You must be chuffed. He is actually in the uk at the moment. Ive seen a fair bit of him. Taking off for dinner i suspect. Its all on him. What a fantastic show. Great to see you guys. Victoria, tobyn, and emily, thank you all. That is it. The media show will be back same time next week. Thank you for watching. Weve got some big showers in the forecast for saturday, so be prepared. The skies could turn dark almost at any time, Thunder And Lightning is possible too, and even the possibility of Flash Flooding in some areas. So this is what it looks like early on Saturday Morning Warm And Muggy in the south, 16 celsius, A Little Bit fresher further north. Well see one band of Rain Moving Northwards through the morning, already giving quite a lot of rain in an initial space of time, but then come the afternoon, well see very heavy showers developing across the west country, the midlands, east anglia, the London Area possibly, too. We could see, in the extreme case, up to 80mm of rain. Now, thats a lot of rainfall in a relatively short space of time, so hence the possibility of Flash Flooding. Temperatures will be typically around the low 20s further south, high teens in the north, and the showers and thunderstorms will probably linger at least in some areas into the evening hours as well. Take care. This is bbc news. Im Lewis Vaughan jones. 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