Now on bbc news, its time for hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. The Chinese Communist Party is pumping out a relentless stream of propaganda to celebrate the centenary of its formation next month. In a sense, it is a triumph of creative thinking. Chinas modern day economic miracle was engineered when maos Communist Orthodoxy was abandoned. The party exercises authoritarian control In The Name Of stability, rather than ideological purity. My guest is victor gao, Party Loyalist and one time translator for deng xiaoping. How sustainable is the Partys Grip on china . Victor gao in beijing, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much for having me. It is the 100th Anniversary of the Chinese Communist Party. Would you agree that perhaps thats more a recognition of the Partys Devotion to raw power than it is to ideological purity . Well, i think china is celebrating the centenary of the founding of the communist party of china, the biggest, largest, most important political party ever in human history, with almost 100 Million party members. And The Party is, indeed, invasive. Its omnipotent and omnipresent. However, i would say if any political force anywhere in the world really has some justification to be very proud of its achievements, it is the communist party of china. It has very solid track records. And i think this celebration is not only celebrating the communist party of china, but also the great transformation that china has gone through over the past a245 years in particular, or ever since 1949. This is not a celebration of the power grip. This is truly a good occasion for everyone to celebrate why we are the chinese today, and why we believe tomorrow will be better than today. You used an interesting word there you described The Party as omnipotent. Do you think it is healthy in any society to have a political organisation that is your word omnipotent . Well, i would say societies everywhere in the world are different, and china, given its own historical background, its own history and its own culture, now to have this communist party of china as the omnipotent power in china, very much present everywhere you go and very much in the drivers seat, mobilising The People, pointing out the direction of movement for the whole nation i think this is the right time for the communist party to be the leader for the whole chinese nation. And we all benefit from the great achievements, and we are very proud of the leadership of the communist party of china. And there you sit in beijing, and, of course, you and your family are just one family of many hundreds of millions across china who are exposed to the constant, as i put it earlier, stream of propaganda in film and signs on buses everywhere across the country. There is this message that the Chinese Communist Party has generated generations of heroes that you all must be proud of and think of at this time of the centenary. Is that kind of propaganda necessary and helpful . Well, first of all, propaganda as a word in english or in the western world has some bad connotation to it. In china, i would say we are very proud of the achievements, and we do not need propaganda as you use that word for for spreading around the message. And i would say the chinese people, especially for the past few years, have seen with their own eyes the differences between china as we are, and all the differences in other countries in dealing with the pandemic, for example. And we are very proud of the solid track record, and we are very proud that the communist party of china is really caring for The People, saving as many people as possible, people as old as in their 90s, rather than abandoning any other people and doing their best, mobilising the whole nation in preventing people from getting infected with the virus. I suppose the point of propaganda is that it is a deliberate and systematic effort to create a narrative. It might be a narrative that bears little relation to reality, it might actually be myth making. So, im just wondering what role there is for honesty right now in China Honesty about the past of the communist party . Honesty about what happened under Mao Tse Tung . What happened to millions and millions of chinese who were starved to death, who lost their lives during the famine, during the Quote Unquote Great Leap Forward 7 is there room for honesty . Well, this is exactly why i have some problem when you use the Word Propaganda in english, because the celebrations we are doing today for the achievements of the communist party of china, or china as a nation, for example, are really telling the real stories. And these real stories are actually not fully told by many of the western medias. Now, if we compare China Today with 19119 and with 1978, when i started to go to college and preparing for my work for deng xiaoping, for example, in the 1980s, i would say china has completely transformed itself from today, compared with 19119, and ever since 19118. Of course, for a nation with chinas size, every day, we make some mistakes. We do not need to be proud of our mistakes, but we need to celebrate our great achievements. I would say no country, ever since 19118, has made as much progress economically and politically as china has. The chinese nation as a whole. But the point is that much of that progress didnt start in � as. Maos rule over china was, in many ways, catastrophic. That story is not being told right now. And what you refer to as the great economic miracle of china that really didnt begin until after maos death, when your boss, deng xiaoping, took over and said that getting rich could be glorious, and put a whole new spin on what chinas political and economic system should do for its people. Thats the truth. But nobody is telling it in xi jinpings China Today. Allow me to disagree with your narrative. We know for sure, between 1919 to 1978, major mistakes were made, especially during the great cultural revolutions between 1966 to 1976. Huge losses were made, and eventually, china was locked up in a huge ideological box. We were debating that Everything Socialist must be good, must be superior to anything capitalist. So, eventually, we ended up on the wrong side of history because our economy was stuck, and our productivity was slowed down. However, even in the first part of chinese history, ever since 1919, china did make great progress. The living standards were improving. Industrialisation was striking deep roots. And dont forget, china developed the nuclear bomb and the launch missiles, and launched the satellite into the orbit. All these achievements were made under mao zedong. So, i think its inaccurate to say that, during the first two decades or so, china did not make great progress. And i would say, by wiping the whole slate clean, it prepared for Chinas Resurgence ever since 1978. As you reflect on the centenary, will you also find room to remember the thousands of your fellow citizens murdered by the chinese military under the instruction of the chinese communist Party Injune 1989 at Tiananmen Square . Well, i would say, whatever happened in 1989 has taught the chinese nation as a whole that China Today cannot afford to have a revolution. Whatever problems there are in the society, we need to deal with them in a very scientific way, in a very peaceful way. Rioting or violence, or revolutions aimed at colour change, for example, or Regime Change is not tolerated in china. I would say, whatever the reason for the events in1989. Whoa, whoa, hang on, mr gao, what those thousands of protesters in the streets of your Capital City in 1989 wanted was more freedom, more democracy. Are you telling me that Freedom And Democracy are ideas that cannot be entertained in china in 2021 . I disagree. I would say the real position in china is without democracy, you cannot have modernisation. We all want to have democracy, we all want to have Human Rights. But democracy, as defined in britain, for example, may be very different from democracy defined in china. And Human Rights in the United States may be very different from the Human Rights. In china, for example, we do not consider Gun Ownership as part of the Human Rights. We consider all those deaths from the Gun Violence in the United States as a deprivation of The Peoples fundamental rights of life. And we cannot allow private ownership of guns. That doesnt mean that. No, but, mr gao, youre not really addressing my central point about Freedom And Democracy, cos what we see on this 100th Anniversary is the Chinese Communist Party has found ways, ideological contortions to enable The People of china to get rich, to make money, to enjoy many of the fruits of a capitalist system. What they have not allowed the chinese people at all is any degree of political freedom, any real ability to freely express themselves, to express dissent against the Ruling Party. Are you telling me that that total disconnect between economic freedom and political, Intellectual Freedom is sustainable for the long term . First of all, stephen, allow me to disagree with your analysis. First of all, i think the system in China Works for China Today under the chinese circumstances. Secondly. But, mr gao, it only works if youre prepared to see all of those who dissent locked up, repressed, surveilled, robbed of what we in the West Call basic Human Rights. Allow me to disagree with you again why . Because i would say any society everywhere in the World Today has some taboo list. It may differ from one country to another, but dont Tell Me that there is any country that you have Freedom Of Speech in absolute terms rather than conditional terms, where you have freedom of expression without any conditions to it. No. I would say freedom or Human Rights all exist not in a vacuum, but relative to rights and obligations. In china, we have our own freedom. We have our own democracy. Its conditioned to circumstances in china. And in china, there is a shortlist of Red Button issues you are not allowed to talk about, for example, tibets independence, xinjiang independence, or Hong Kong independence. For example, if anyone wanted to declare Hong Kong as a republic of Hong Kong, it will be wiped out immediately. Its not part of the freedom or democracy, as we understand in china. But you cannot say that the rest of the system in china is not freedom or Human Rights. I would make one point without empowering The People, you cannot change china from a very backward country to the second largest economy in the World Today. And also, dont forget, the chinese economy is larger than that of the United States today, if you use purchasing power parity, so we are talking about revolutionary change. All right, but the thing is. And dont deny that china has its inner qualities and strengths that maybe some western countries fail to fully understand. The realfact is and we have this from databases and research done by independent Human Rights groups that thousands upon thousands of chinese citizens are currently being detained under what is called a residential surveillance at a designated Location System which, because of their views and expressions which are not satisfactory for the communist party government, they are now, in effect, detained in isolation. And that might happen to you if you express dissent. So how do i know that youre speaking from your heart . Stephen, let me tell you one thing for sure. Im speaking with you now from the bottom of my heart. Im a man of decency. Im a man of honesty and a high level of credibility. But youre a man whos living in a severely and increasingly repressive system. Do you not acknowledge that . No, i disagree. I would say china is the largest internet society. There are more people using smartphones or Internet Connections in china than any other country in the world. Do you really believe that the chinese people are using their smartphones or Internet Connections without doing lots of chatting, for example . But excuse me, mr gao, but we know for sure that the chinese government has one of the most repressive Monitoring Systems of the internet in the entire world. You, yourself, have a social Credit Score, which is based upon your performance, your expression online and in your public and daily life. And that Credit Score affects everything about your life. We also know that if you went to your television in a different room in your house right now and tried to watch bbc world news, you wouldnt be able to because the chinese government has blocked it. This is the reality of the government that you live with today. I actually highly respect the bbc, and i talk to your bbc colleagues quite a lot probably more often than any other people in china. However, the censorship of bbc is not because of the content of bbc. Its because the British Government closed down cgtn in london first. And the closure of bbc in china is a retaliation against the wrong decision of the British Government. And i want to say this to you i want to do whatever i can to restore bbc to normal operating in china if, for example, you can reciprocate by allowing the normal operation of cgtn in britain. This will make both China And Britain better. Right, let me ask you a personal question of opinion. Xijinping engineered the removal of Term Limits. Back in the early 1980s, the communist party thought it wise certainly given the experience under Mao Tse Tung, thought it wise to impose a two term limit on the presidency. Xijinping, just a couple of years ago, engineered its removal. Personally speaking, do you think that was a mistake . Allow me to make this point. Even if President Xijinping serve in his Leadership Position all the way up to 2035, xijinping, by then, by 2035, would be younger than deng xiaoping, for whom i worked as his interpreter. Id just like a direct answer to the question. Do you think the removal of Term Limits was a mistake . My answer to your question, stephen, is that china now needs a very strong, powerful leader who sees where china is and why china needs to stand firm on matters of principle on the global stage and refuse to cave in to whatever pressure coming from washington. This is the leader we need, and xijinping is indeed this kind of leadership that china is very much embracing right 110w. Much of the pressure that china faces right now isnt actually coming just from the United States. Its coming from the entire international community and, indeed, from the United Nations, as well. Im just looking at the most recent un human Rights Council Report Grave Concern about the human Rights Situation in xinjiang. There are allegations that the uyghur minority, over many years now has faced, by the hundreds of thousands, internment in detention camps, that women have been sexually abused in detention, that many uyghurs have been forcibly transported out of the area to work elsewhere in china. These allegations backed by video and photographic evidence and data that has been leaked from china. Are you prepared, again, because of the way in which you say that you dont have a problem with the Way Speech is controlled in china, are you prepared to Tell Me that that is fundamentally wrong and you want it to change . With due respect to you, stephen, allow me to say i believe you are fundamentally wrong. Why . Because the United States or the five eye countries, or some european countries, they cannot really be bold enough to say that they represent the totality of the international community. And every year at the United Nations Human Rights council, whatever vote bad mouthing about china lets say up to about 25, 35, Ao Member states shall be Outvoted By Another Resolution Sponsored by more than 90 countries. So i would say whatever you believe is the truth is not the universal truth that the international community all embraces. Well, if you. Forxinjiang, i remember we talked about xinjiang. Allow me to say xinjiang is part of china. It will remain part of china for thousands of years and longer to come, and the uyghur brothers and sisters are part of our nationalfabric. No one can change these two megatrends involving xinjiang. I will go to xinjiang next month. I will be very proud in Hopefully Reporting to your bbc colleagues about what i see with my own eyes, with my own conscience about the realities in xinjiang, because i really believe people in xinjiang of so many different ethnic groups, they benefit from Stability And Development and their living standards are improving and they do not buy all these fabrications about the bad situation in xinjiang. Why . Because they are not true. Thats the fundamental point about xinjiang. Now, when we get to Hong Kong, you have said to me that everybody who faces any sort of Government Action and repressive action in Hong Kong is a supporter of independence and the Hong Kong republic. That patently is not true. There are many activists who simply want the one country, two Systems Principle to be recognised, and they believe that the national Security Law imposed from beijing fundamentally undermines that system. Im mindful, for example, ofjimmy lai, the pro democracy activist, but also the editor of the Newspaper Apple daily thats effectively been forced out of action because of repression from the Hong Kong authorities backed by beijing. Can you not see that, again, this undermines any claim china has to respect Human Rights and freedom of expression . Stephen, Apple Daily was calling for united States Government to penalise Hong Kong, to take away many rights of The People of Hong Kong from the Hong Kong sar government. Whatever Apple Daily did is not exercise of freedom of Expression Orfreedom of press. It is actually sedition. And i dont think any country will allow its newspaper to call on another foreign country to sending troops to Hong Kong to remove the Hong Kong sar government, to overthrow the Hong Kong sar government, and to drive the prc central government away from Hong Kong, which is part of Hong Kong, part of china. So i would say, lets call a Spade A spade. There are political forces in Hong Kong which, for many years, denied that Hong Kong is part of china. They want to return Hong Kong back to the british, which is impossible. They want to return Hong Kong to the americans. They wave american flags in the streets of Hong Kong. They try to raise the tensions between china and the United States, and there are forces in the United States which fuel these frenzies, so. All right, victor gao. Let� s call a Spade A spade. We� re almost out of time. Youve lived through many different eras in your life in china. Do you really believe that the chinese communist Partys Way of ruling right now. People Around The World see it as deeply repressive, systematically repressive, is that sustainable for another 100 years . Truly, i believe it will be for another 100 years and longer. Why . Because if there is any political party anywhere in the world, if there is any political party in britain which has made as much solid record to improve the living standards for The People of their constituencies, for example, as the Chinese Communist Party has done for the chinese people, they will be in office. They will not be voted out of office. They probably will be exactly the Ruling Party as the communist party of china is in china. So i think people have their eyes and they can make their own judgments. And the chinese people know that the communist party of china has brought about change for the better for the chinese people. If they can keep doing this, we want to keep them in office. Victor gao, we have to end there, but i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. Thank you very much. Hello. Best place for the drier and sunnier weather during the first part of this week certainly in Scotland And Northern ireland. And with the Blue Skies out in the highlands on monday, temperatures lift to a very pleasant 25 celsius. And we will see similar sorts of temperatures in southern scotland on tuesday. England and wales, though, it has been a different story. Lots more cloud. And into tuesday, the same area of low pressure that brought The Cloud on monday revolving around. It keeps the temperatures up as we start the day. So, again, mid teens, quite a humid start, whereas clearer skies into scotland, northern ireland, northern england. Single figure temperatures to start the day. But here, some sunny spells, but a few changes. A bit more cloud to the north and the west of scotland, later into northern ireland, drifting in. A damp start for parts of North West england, wales and the south west, but brightening up here to sunny spells. But through the midlands, East Anglia and other southern counties of england, The Cloud will be there, always the threat of some showers, maybe the odd heavy and thundery one, and cooler to East Anglia and the South East in recent days. Cumbria and across parts of western scotland, 211 25 celsius possible. So, for wimbledon on tuesday, it will be cooler. There will be plenty of cloud, but i Cant Promise it will stay dry. Were likely to see showers develop in the nearby areas, which could come along. Same, too, at wembley. Always the chance of some outbreaks of rain as we head into the evening for englands match against germany. And where the showers do form, there is still the chance of the Odd Rumble of thunder. Showers continue into Tuesday Night across parts of the southeast in particular, as well as East Anglia. More of a breeze down those eastern coasts, Feeding Lots of low cloud in further and further westwards. Temperatures for most, though, in double figures. Not as chilly a night for Scotland And Northern ireland. But on wednesday, we will have a lot more low cloud around to the north and the east of the country, so a bit of a grey day. Still the chance of some rain across East Anglia and the South East, but for many, it will be dry. Sunshine will develop more widely towards the west, but because of that cloudier start, it will feel a Bit Cooler across parts of Scotland And North west england. Then, as we go through wednesday into thursday, our area of low pressure starts to pull away, but it mayjust be close enough to throw in some influence still towards East Anglia and the southeast for thursday. High pressure in the north and the west. A lot more sunshine once again more widely. But eastern counties of england, that cloud, a bit of a breeze, and for East Anglia and the South East, there could be still the chance of a few showers. Temperatures at their highest in western areas, at around 21 24 celsius. And then through the rest of the week, it looks like by the weekend, showers will develop more widely. See you soon. Hello and welcome to bbc news. The latest headlines for the uk and Around The World. Celebrations in the streets after switzerland beats france and a Penalty Shootout at the euros. Shock and dismay for french fans, the tournament favourites make an early exit. Canada heads record temperatures as Americas Northwest Swelter is in a dangerous early summer heat wave. How effective are your facemasks