Now on Bbc News the media show. Hello. From countdown to Big Brother to its a sin, Channel 4 has long been a fixture on our gogglebox. But could the channel a whole generation has grown up with be about to change . This week, the government announced another consultation into whether Channel 4 should be privatised. So would that mean an influx of cash to compete with the streaming giants or a change of focus perhaps less unreported world, more naked attraction. And would flogging our third biggest broadcaster bring in as much cash as the government expects . Joining me to discuss this is Alex Mahon, Chief Executive of Channel 4, and chris curtis, editor in chief at broadcast. Also with me, Danielle Lux, Managing Director of cpl productions. And, danielle, youve got a very broad slate, havent you . Give me a sense of the shows youve got on air at the moment. Well, we just finished life rhymes, which is our Entertainment Show on Sky Arts. We are in production on married at first sight, in production on you are what you eat, league of their own, theres something about movies quite a lot of stuff across a lot of genres. Good. And, by The Way, life rhymes thats like a Beat Poetry Show which you described as entertainment, which is interesting in itself, and more on that later. Derek mclean is also with us as well, Managing Director of bandicoot tv. Now, you, derek, are the company behind the masked singer, and more recently the masked dancer. For anyone who hasnt seen the masked singer and i must say, once its been seen, it cannot be unseen what is the Elevator Pitch . The Elevator Pitch for that show is literally your favourite celebrities in disguise, singing songs, and the audience and a Celebrity Panel of Celebrity Detectives trying to work out whos behind the mask. And lots of Squirrel Costumes as well. Dont forget the Squirrel Costumes. One squirrel costume. Lots of blobs, lots of childrens favourites, i think. Mayjust be one costume its haunted me forever since ive seen it. Anyway, more of that later. Lets now talk about the big news from today on Channel 4. And, alex, it is now clear you are going to be spending the next few months talking about the future of Channel 4 and briefing ministers, so how did you feel when that news was announced, when you realised that is now going to be the reality of your life . Well, we like being in the news, and we like thinking about how we can change, so thats not always a bad thing. But i guess the sort of questions are about, what would that mean . And what would it mean to britain . What would it mean to the british public, who own us . What would it mean to the uks creative economy . You know, you have on today a lot of the people that we work with and a lot of the companies that we pour the Advertising Money that we get into. And, you know, were all about making small businesses successful across the uk, so i think, aside from my excitement about us being on the front pages, my focus is on thinking about, what are the questions we need to ask to make sure any changes are made in a really considered fashion and are definitely logical and makes sense, in respect of that data and the facts . Ok, well, lets talk about how you work now, then, before we have an intricate conversation about how Channel 4 might look in the future. How does it work now . Because i think a lot of people think you cost the taxpayer money, but actually you dont. You dont get money from the government or from the licence fee. Its a very british thing, right . Its quite unique, its quite peculiar, and thats particularly british, right . We were set up in 1982 actually set up by the thatcher government. Were going to hit 39 this year. So were soon to be a0. Were constantly reinventing ourselves, but The Way we work is we dont cost the Taxpayer Anything at all. We take money commercially from advertisers, we dont make a profit. We take all that money about £1 billion of revenue a year and we recycle it into small and medium businesses across the uk. We spend our money about 50 of it outside of london and about 50 in london. And thats a big focus for us, making sure we spread it across the uk on lots of creative Production Companies. They make programmes for us that we put on air. And i think thats really important, right . Were owned by the public, were for the public, the decisions we try to make are about the public. And technically, of course, the government, the parliament of the day, represent the public, so they get to make decisions about us. I mean, you say you look forward to discussing change. You do sound a bit, just in your tone, like youre kind ofjustifying the Status Quo there, with The Way youve just rolled out of what Channel 4 does. You dont see any need to change, do you . Look, i think we can always do better. Like, i really do see the need to change. And weve changed a lot over the past years. You know, three years ago, this whole organisation was in london. And now, only a couple of years after Making Decisions, weve got big offices in leeds, in manchester, in glasgow, in bristol. Were spending 50 of our money outside of london and weve got almost 300 people employed outside of london, so we are changing all the time. Weve changed because, now, a lot of our viewing is on digital. You know, all 4, which is our streaming service, is absolutely our focus. 80 of young people in the uk are registered on it. So we are changing. I always believe you should change, and thats partly what we were set up for. Ijust think, when you think about changing the ownership, you need to think about what would be lost to the Media Landscape, what would be lost thats distinctive or valuable. And if you made those changes, would the Uk Public have things they would gain from privatisation . But would they have things that might make the Media Landscape worsened, in terms of plurality or creative innovation . And weve got to look at the Pros And Cons of that. Well, and also how it would work. So lets run through what the options for the future might be. Do you think it could be listed on the stock market, so we can buy shares in it, like British Gas when that was privatised . Or are we talking about the government putting it up for auction and selling it to the highest bidder . I mean, have you got any idea what their preference might be . I dont think were at that stage, but what i would say is. And ive run commercial private businesses and ive run that for private equity and ive run it for listed businesses. What i would say is when you run a business for profit and for return to shareholders, you tend to have a different set of priorities. Thats not to say those priorities are wrong, its just that our priorities are about public purpose. And we put public purpose above profit. Just because you tend to, that doesnt mean, does it, that the remit of Channel 4 couldnt be ring fenced . It doesnt mean that the Culture Secretary is wrong when he says that this could be a big cash injection, privatisation. It could be that some Deep Pocketed Mogul comes along and benefits Channel 4 with millions of pounds more money than you get at the moment. I havent seen any deep pocketed Media Moguls come along and benefit Public Service institutions in the uk. Thats not to say that they dont exist, and its also true to say that we already spend much more on programming as a percentage of revenues than any other commercial competitor. Channel 5 is doing quite well with viacom as its owner, isnt it . We spend much more than Channel 5 on programming. But its a Public Service broadcaster, isnt it, thats owned by a big conglomerate . Yes, yes, absolutely. But i think theres a question of when you are focused on profit and when you are focused on Public Service, do you do things slightly differently . You know, Channel 5 has done a greatjob of appealing to older people, it fulfils the public remit that its meant to fulfil, and its very, very different to what we do. You know, were focused on the paralympics, on shows like its a sin. Were focused on things like the write offs about adult illiteracy, the school that tried to end racism. Weve got really, really in depth, investigative and interrogative news on every night. Thats very different to what you might see on Channel 5, owned by viacom. Although your big hits in recent years have been things like Bake Off and taskmaster, which were poached from other networks. I mean, how distinctive is that, really . To take something that was somewhere else and put it in your schedule arguably deprives new ideas and new talent, which is the Thing Channel 4 should be supporting, of that slot . I think Theres Plenty of new, innovative ideas on Channel 4. You know, look at things like lady parts, about an all female muslim punk rock band, thats on at the moment. Theres a huge range of them. Joe lycett, hollyoaks thats on every day. Theres a huge range. And were really focused on those new, innovative shows, and i know that producers will go on to tell you on this show that we are one of the very few places you can get away new ideas and get away things are known in the trade as Paper Formats shows that have never been on anywhere else. Thats really, really hard to do in our business. And it also means producers can export them Around The World, and we play a very, very important role in doing that. The other thing that i understood was hard at the moment was getting advertising revenue, so can you explain why you had such a strong year last year . Your financial results came out a record £70 million surplus, yeah. So, look, a few things happened last year. Obviously, you may know there was a pandemic last year, and we thought it would be dreadfulfor a while. But in the end, it was ok. We ended up only about 5 down. And that was partly because we did really well competitively. So, you know, when the pandemic came, we had to cut lots of programming and lots of things couldnt be made, and we had to cut some costs, but we did a thing that No One Else did. We decided to put money back into making really reactive programming, things that really reflected how we felt as a nation at that time. And we made some shows like Jamie Oliver Cooking from home thats how we all felt, right . We were all stuck at home, having to cook every night, endlessly. We had Grayson Perry doing art from Home And Kirstie allsop crafting from home. And we had, you know, all these fast turnaround shows on that really reflected how we felt as a nation. And we were all trapped at home with nothing to do, watching television, and that helped us competitively. So the budget was cut on some of your programmes . Thats partly what the surplus is. Yeah, the budget was cut, absolutely. We saved costs. And also, we couldnt make a lot of things. Covid restrictions meant we couldnt make shows. Bearing in mind that there were people involved in the productions of those shows that got cut, that have been at Home And Havent had Government Support because they fall in between the stalls, because theyre freelance, in that context, was it right of you to accept a Pay Rise . Well, we made as many shows as we possibly could. So we did things like. You know, we made Bake Off in a bubble. We, like, sent everyone from Bake Off away for six weeks to sequester in a hotel to make the show. So we made as many things as we could and we also made lots and lots of shows in little companies and small companies in the nations and regions. So our choice was about putting as much money back into the sector as we could. But the optics of you having more money personally, when other people have really been struggling in the production sector, its not a good look. I think youre right to flag that it was really, really difficult for freelancers and, you know, a focus for us was also about how we contribute money to the freelancers� charity and what we could do to help them. And ourfocus has been on how can we get as many of them back to work as possible and up the programming budget, which is what we announced yesterday about putting more money into it. Ok, im going to bring in chris curtis, editor of broadcast. This is the fifth time that there has been a Government Consultation into Channel 4. Both labour and tory governments have had a go at this. Why do you think they think now might be the right time to sell . Well, the market does change. I mean, thats true. It was 2015,16. In fact, the last attempt, there wasnt actually a formal consultation, but it dragged on for, goodness, 18 months or more. That was five years ago, six years ago. The market has changed. The speed of the Streaming Revolution has only accelerated. But its also the case that the british psbs and Channel 4 at the forefront theyre changing with the market, so its not as though everything surrounding these organisations is all Up In The Air and theyre preserved in aspic. So i think theres two things. Theres the fact that the market has changed, theres what the dcms would say is their concerns about the long Term Sustainability of Channel 4 and Thats Something that i suspect alex would have a view on and then theres the fact that, you know, either ideologically, the government may hold the view that having a second state owned broadcaster is not a good thing or an unnecessary distraction, and the fact that, conceivably, privatising an asset like Channel 4 would be a boost to the treasury, though in the grand scheme of the level of national debt at the moment, the proceeds you might make from buying Channel 4 is something of a drop in the ocean. So that would be their rationale, i suspect. But also, i mean, the state owns it. Is there a sense that the price might be less in the future you know, sell it now because it might be worth less . Do you think thats the calculation . Well, conceivably. I mean, the value of Channel 4 is an interesting question. I suspect the value of Channel 4, in terms of what you could get on the Open Market from a trade bidder, lets say, would be directly linked to the constraints that came with any purchase. The governments made it clear that they expect, in one form or another, to sort of preserve c4s psb remit, but it is the case that the stronger the remit, the less attractive c4 would be to a commercial buyer, because they would be obliged to do many of the things that Channel 4 does at the moment which, you know, a for Profit Organisation Wouldnt do. Alex mentioned a recent series about adult literacy. I cant imagine that would be top of the list of a Pure Play Commercial Operator, and Channel 4 news and the Dispatches Strand and all kinds of different types of programming. Lets say all that was protected. I mean, the Government Havent announced anything like this yet, theyre onlyjust beginning the consultation, but lets say, in conclusion, they were saying, we will ring fence all those things, well make sure we still do dispatches and unreported world and those sorts of things. Do you think there would be any buyers for Channel 4 as it exists now, and if so, who . Look, i think its inconceivable that if the government auctions off Slot Number four in British Television that companies wouldnt take a look. I mean, one of the things that isnt clear. Previously, it wouldve been unthinkable that one of the big existing british players would buy Channel 4 for sort of monopolistic reasons. Now, who knows . Maybe the speed of the global Giants Progress would mean that Thats Something that would be more palatable to regulators and there would definitely be lots of companies interested in having a look. But i think its clear, and i think dcms would accept, that theres almost like a sliding scale, in that the stronger the remit, the more preserved the Channel 4 remit is, the less money youre likely to realise by selling it. And thats a Judgment Call for them to make. The other thing that i think is worth saying is that if youre a Commercial Operator and you want to buy Channel 4, you are likely, i suspect, to want to produce your own programming. If you look at what itv has done in the last ten years, its gone from being pure Play Advertising to Advertising And Production very successfully, very clever strategy. Channel 4s whole ethos is based around the fact that it doesnt produce its own programmes, precisely so that it can support the Uk Production sector. And as alex said, thats actually helped it get a surplus this year, when production was suffering. Yes, but, i mean, its also been a huge contributor to. British Television Production is a Uk Plc Success story over the last sort of 20 years. Thats undeniable. Channel 4 has played a significant role in that. And if a new owner of Channel 4, i dont know, made 50 of its programmes in house and owned that ip, then that would be money that is lost to indigenous british producers that weve seen over that period. So all of these factors need to be considered when Making Decisions about the future model and future ownership of Channel 4. Shall we talk to some Programme Makers . Derek mclean, you run a production company, bandicoot, which is part of the argonon group. What do you make of all this, by The Way, the Channel 4 scenario, first of all . I think its a really challenging one. I mean, i know alexs hands are tied, but i Cant Help but, from a personal level, wonder whether the government do this slightly as a Punishment Beating for Channel 4 because they sort of ideologically dont fit with their ethos. Its something that i hope does not come to pass. I think the point that chris made and alex made, very clearly, is the Uk Economy benefits hugely from Channel 4s current status, because we, as independent Production Companies in the uk, produce the content for them. And that money flows directly into Uk Companies and the Uk Exchequer as a result. If its purchased by an overseas company a foreign held company the likelihood is that a large part of that may go if they do Move Content in house, and i think that from the Governments Point of view, selling uk plc, i think they really need to answer that question about how they would protect us as Small Indies in that scenario. And as chris mentioned earlier, you as an indie get to keep more of your ip when you sell to Channel 4, the valuable intellectual property. Thats not necessarily a benefit to the taxpayer, is it . I mean, wouldnt it be better for Channel 4 to own that, and then the taxpayer owns it . Well, it depends on which network youre with with Channel 4. I mean, obviously the deals are structured differently. I think theres an argument for that, and i think we would happily look at that. The Terms Of Trade changed some time ago to give us the freedom to do that, which makes the uk such a brilliant place to make programming, so i think it would be bad news to go back and reverse that. I think the other point that she made is, you know, Channel 4 is a brilliant. Its almost like a Kite Mark Around The World, in terms of the quality. You know, if were pitching a show that Channel 4 have produced or piloted, that means something elsewhere, and i think that goes to the high benchmark of the quality of shows that are made by Channel 4. And very few networks Around The World have that. And, danielle, id imagine youre a fan of the Status Quo as well. Youre making a lot of shows for Channel 4, or have done in the past. You do pretty well out of the current situation. The thing for us as the indies is that Channel 4 is often the place that gives you your first break. They are the place that often back new talent, ideas that are quirky or left field but then become mainstream. And, yes, of course, every business needs to move with the times and keep up with things as they change, but the thing that is most vital is being certain of the effect that such a sale might have, and affecting far more than simply what the viewer sees immediately on screen, but a whole commercial ecology around Channel 4. Well, one of the things that ive been watching on the screen recently over on itv, admittedly is the masked dancer. Derek, its kind of like a mad Fever Dream that keeps repeating on me, but it wasnt your idea. Its something you found in korea, is that right, and then pitched it to the Uk Broadcasters . Tell us the story. The masked singer is a korean format, yeah. So it was a show that originated in korea around 2005. 2015, rather. Was a huge success in korea you know, a massive smash hit. The format itself has actually done an unusualjourney. We pride ourselves in the uk is being format generators and format exporters. The masked singer has actually travelled Around The World the opposite way. It started in korea. Thailand did an amazing version with unbelievably opulent costumes, which is what caught our eye, and then, actually, fox in the us commissioned it before it came to the uk. So, unusually, its actually travelled the world in the opposite direction. The masked dancer is a step forward from that. I dont want to call it a spin off show i think that would undermine it but its the familiar masked brand but done differently, and were really excited that we had the opportunity to try something different under that guise. But you did go taking the masked singer around, didnt you, for a while . And nobody wanted it, really, until it was a hit in the states. Is that fair . Its amazing what a massive success on fox in the us can do to everyone� s appetite. The challenging thing, i think, for people. When we pitched the show, we were going in, saying, weve got this show, its really different. Its celebrities, but theyre singing, but theyre in disguise, and the first thing people would say is, oh, not another talent show, not another singing show. Weve had so many of those. We really dont need any more. And we were at pains to say, its not a talent show. Its a Guessing Game. You have to understand its a completely different concept, because it doesnt matter whether theyre any good at singing or not. Theyre not competing each other in that way. Its for the audience to guess who they are. And at first, i think people really struggled to capture that, and then, eventually, they caught on. And thats where, suddenly, the change came. And so a Guessing Game is now part of an entertainment genre, whereas perhaps people just saw shiny Floor Talent shows. And, danielle im sorry to mention this in front of derek, but your Series Life rhymes recently won a bafta up against the masked singer in the entertainment category. Congratulations as i mentioned earlier, thats a poetry show. Its quite bittersweet. I mean, actually, quite a lot of the poetry is a real punch in the guts emotionally. I wouldnt necessarily think of it as an Entertainment Show. Do you think the genres really broadening out now . I think you get lots of bittersweet moments in some of those competition shows, where people lose some contest or they talk about the trials that theyve gone through to get to those points, so an emotional arc is absolutely right at the centre of those shiny floor shows as well. I think that entertainment, moving with the times, cant limit itself to simply being two slots on Saturday Night in a studio, much as dereks show has completely united the nation and theres absolutely a place for that. But where factual entertainment is actually really providing a lot of entertainment for the viewer, Entertainment Ideas come from everywhere. And, really, where they come from is something joyful and passionate that somebody believes in and wants to perform, and thats where. You talk about it as poetry, which sounds so oxbridge. Its spoken word. It is the songs on dereks show but without music. So theres nothing rarefied. Its real Peoples Experience and itsjoyful and beautiful. Chris curtis from broadcast, what do you think those two shows Tell Us about where entertainment is at the moment . I mean, the guessing Game Thing that does seem to be the kind of next big frontier of Saturday Night telly now . Yes. Often when theres a hit, i commissioners rush to see what else might be in a similar space. And theres one or two other Guessing Gamesl on air at the moment. Look, theyre fun. Theres definitely a turn of the wheel in entertainment. Theres not much. Cruelty any more in the entertainment space. We dont really want to see, l after the year everyones just had, people having their dreams dashed on a Saturday Night, and i think Thats Something that is bringing the genre i together at the moment. And i think, gradually, i the sector is being a little bit riskier, a little bit. Bolder, at trying a few new things out, not least because i kind of think theres an acceptance now that the numbers that the really big beasts do in the shape i of strictly or used to do in the shape of x factor, | lets say it kind of feels thats gone a little bit and no one really thinks that theresj going to be a new Entertainment Format that does 10 Million viewers. Maybe thats a little defeatist. But given that sort of context, i think broadcasters, commissioners, are happier to try a few things out, they might not have quite the vast budgets of some| of those old shows, and see what they can achieve with newer, quirkier ideas. So this is a little move in the right direction, i i would suggest. And maybe a little bit on your territory, Alex Mahon from Channel 4. Chris just called both these shows bold and they kind of are. One� s on Sky Arts and. It is a poetry show, i know you want to call it spoken word, danielle and, derek, what youre doing is very bold for a Saturday Night show as well, in terms of visuals and surprise. Are those shows youd like on Channel 4, alex . Theyre both brilliant shows. I would love to have either of them. They� re absolutely brilliant. Does it mean you have to be bolder, though, if Itv Or Sky arts are being as bold as Channel 4. . Thats not a bad thing. Having competitions not a bad thing. Having lots of shows for the Uk Public is not a bad thing. What im saying is, look, were here about doing something thats about an economic contribution, a cultural one, a social one, were about young people, were often about the underserved and voices that are unheard. And i think what we do about sometimes challenging, sometimes bringing different perspectives, quite a lot about diversity of thought, thats an important thing for britain today. Well, we have served that to the Radio 4 audience today, but that is all the time we have. Thank you to all my guests Alex Mahon from Channel 4, Danielle Lux from cpl productions, chris curtis, editor in chief of broadcast, and Derek Mclean from bandicoot tv. Media show will be back same time next week. Thanks for listening. Hello. Reaches down into single figures that the cold and placed much of england, outbreaks of Rain And Drizzle still around. Temperatures in the midteens. Again, it starts grey, grey across much of england and wales, Rain And Drizzle through northwest entered bars in the south west. That will fade a little, skies will brighten. Southeast holding onto cloud through the day and this is one area where we could see further rain at times and the shells could be on the heavyside. And while some trainers still there across parts of scotland and northern ireland, cloud on the north and the west will see Temperature Rise in parts of south West Scotland and cumbria, highs of 24, 20 five degrees. Into Tuesday Evening the showers continue. East anglia and the South East all the odd heavy one, the question will be the Odd Rumble of thunder. Cloud toward southern areas but on thursday, sunshine will develop more widely. Ifor now. This is Bbc News, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and Around The World. Hotter than ever. Canada hits record temperatures as Americas Northwest Swelter is in a big heatwave. Is in a big heatwave. Climate chance is in a big heatwave. Climate change is is in a big heatwave. Climate change is real, is in a big heatwave. 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