Transcripts For BBCNEWS Dateline London 20240710

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Now on bbc news, dateline london. Hello. Im shaun ley. Welcome to the programme which brings together columnists from leading journals, bbc specialists and the reporters who write, Broadcast And Blog for folks back home from the dateline london. This week biden� s back and bibis out. What changes will follow from a united States Administration re engaged on the World Stage and an israel led by its first new Prime Minister in more than a decade . To discuss that and more, im joined byjeffrey kofman, who hails from canada and anchored programmes there and in the United States. Hes also served as a foreign correspondent in war and peace. Russian born Arkady Ostrvosky reports on the country of his birth, as well as the whole of central and eastern europe, for the economist magazine. The bbc� s chief international correspondent, lyse doucet, also canadian by birth, is with me here. Still canadian. Youre still canadian still canadian by birth and by nationality, and a privileged guest here in london. We are very glad to have you here, lyse. Thank you all very much for being with us. Now, lets begin with pasties in cornwall, pate in brussels, Petite Arvine by the glass on lake geneva. Us president Joe Biden has had a busy week, encompassing multi national diplomacy with G7 And Nato and a Bi Lateral with vladimir putin. More than once, in the folksy style honed by five decades in americas national politics, Mr Biden declared, America Is Back. Jeffrey, it is a neat phrase, some might even say it is a bit of a glib Phrase But America is back in what way and where . I think the question is, is it an existential back or is that an aspirational America Is Back . And i think the answer is, it is a bit of both. The fact is that Donald Trump took america out of international organisations, took american and threatened to get out of nato, and really panicked the western alliance. What biden is saying is we are back in the western alliance, we are back as a collective, but that aspirational part of it is that trump has and American Democracy have really, really been tested and the legitimacy of American Democracy is not where it was a decade or two ago and so it becomes an aspirational America Is Back. America wants to be notjust economic but the moral leader of the world. Biden is keen to restore that but there is a lot of work to do. And domestically, the us is not there. Nonetheless, America Is Back at the table. And that really is the take away from this past week. Arkady ostrvosky, in european terms, what might America Is Back mean . Well, i think this is the moment that everybody has been Waiting For with some trepidation and huge anticipation, after the psychodrama of Donald Trump and his relationship| with vladimir putin. Ithinkjust a sense of america returning to its former self in terms of diplomacy, i in terms of institutions, in terms of more predictable statements and policies i that in itself has. Brought some relief and of course for europe, russia has been one of the main worries, i particularly since 2014. And the war in ukraine, the turmoil belarus. The turmoil in belarus. So this is a very, very important moment for europe to see american leadership because, for many years, i for the past few years, | for the past four years, a lot of europeans, particularly in eastern europe, were really not sure where they stand. L in terms of President Putin, clearly he stroked President Putins ego with his invitation to meet one on one as if these were two leaders of two superpowers meeting like the old days, with then saying this guy is a serious guy and we have to respect him. But whenJoe Biden says we will return what you do in kind unless you co operate over things like cyber attacks. Does President Putin really have cause to take that seriously . President putin understands i power and understands force. For the past few years he has been able to claim Escalation Dominance partly or largely in that knowledge that there would be no push back. There will be no push back after the reset of Americas Relationship with russia in 2008, i by barack obama. There will certainly be no real| pushback from Donald Trump. I think in his Press Conference and they had individual Press Conferences i its quite interestingl really, thatJoe Biden tried to walk a very tight line here. On the one hand, as you say, not so much to massage his ego, putins ego, but to meet him Face To face and try to mitigate whatever he can by not giving him an opportunity to have. A joint Press Conference. But as i said, putin understands what power means and when somebody is prepared to push back and i think biden, in very calm terms, | has made it incredibly clear that cyber attacks on american vital infrastructure will be retaliated. He gave him a list of things that i a list of Infrastructure Sitesl that should not be touched. He delivered a sort of a thinly veiled threat saying, how would you like if your pipeline was attacked by ransomwa re . And he said all the things on ukraine i think which were important to state, particularly following russias Build Up of troops on the ukrainian border, that the conflict should not go further in military terms. I think Putin Didl take it seriously. I think for putin its alsoi important to get a sense of detente, so he can concentrate on things at hand which unfortunately means suppression of opposition, | purges is of the political. System and getting himself back into power in 2024. How, lyse, should allies measure his words against his actions, because the obvious place to talk about this, potentially, is afghanistan where there was a consultation but really not much of a consultation before america basically announced, we are off. Well, i know, but i think arkady was absolutely right. There was a palpable sigh of relief. You could hear it when President Biden won the election, when he was inaugurated. They had been Waiting For this day and fortunately could meet Face To face. They loved the fact that America Is Back. Arkady used the phrase stable and predictable. President biden came out and said, i want a stable and predictable relationship with President Putin. Well, the europeans want a stable and predictable relationship with the United States as well. If only to use the phrase, if we could have been in The Room where it happened. We were told that when the 13 nato partners sat down together there was, to quote President Biden, a consensus in The Room that he had made the right decision to announce it. There was no good time to pull out the last of the us led nato forces but now was the time that he had to pull them out. And, yes, there was, to use the british expression, barely concealed frustration. The europeans had not been consulted, nato allies had not been consulted, but theres that great nato expression, we went in together, were going out together, and they are showing its a public show of strength and unity. But there is clearly a lot of scrambling going on. Where will they base us forces in the region . Where will they train Afghan National Security Forces . Because thats supposed to go on. Because theyre all saying, our troops are leaving afghanistan but we are not leaving afghanistan. We are going to help you and they still need to help as the taliban inch closer district by district back into power. So there seems to be an awful lot of scrambling going on when literally the weeks are counted before the last of the forces leave. But when you hear a quote like this from the Defence Secretary, lloyd austin, who says, it possibly could take two years for international terrorist groups to regroup, regenerate inside afghanistan, and pose a threat to the us. That almost sounds like hes speaking against the administration. We are told that the Defence Secretary actually gave his advice to the president that they actually should leave some kind of residualforce, a counterterrorism force, and that he may have heard that from other senior commanders as well. But President Biden thought very carefully, as he is want to do, and he decided ,no, now is the time to go. What President Biden said publicly was is 2021 is not 2001 the Terrorism Threat is different. We dont need to have a huge footprint in order to deal with it. And as he put it, its not just afghanistan, its syria, its somalia, its iraq, its the sahel, many other places, where there is a Terrorism Threat and that he feels this is the optimistic view that they could deal with it. But there is clear concern and jens stontelberg, the Secretary General of nato, has made that clear as well, publicly. Jeffrey, one other subject we should not avoid mentioning at this point is china because it was specifically singled out in both the g7 the G7 Communique at The End of the summit and also in the talks in nato. We are told thatJoe Biden and xijinping have a relationship built up whenJoe Biden was vice president. We are told that they can have a dialogue with one another, but is there much really for china to fear from the other remaining superpower in the world . I think its interesting that china is now so high on the agenda. If you look a few years ago it was all about russia but clearly the Balance Of Power in the world has changed. I think its not a question of whether china has something to fear. China dismissed the g7 as kind of a clique of rich western countries and nothing to be afraid of, but i think unity within the G7 And Unity with nato is a really important Counter Balance against Chinas Power which is being asserted around the world, very effectively through economic means, through international aid. In biden saying he is back in leading that coalition, that very much is what he is after is a unified voice against china to speak out about Human Rights. To say, hey, if you want to be an international player thats fine but there are basic standards of civility on the international stage that you have got to start living up to, around freedoms, around suppression of people within your country, around Human Rights and forced labour, around taiwan, around hong kong. And the only way that is going to be effectively heard is if china really is shamed into this and forced by a western coalition to do something. Should we expect concrete responses and china to back down immediately . Of course not that is not going to happen. These are incremental things but its very clear that a unified western voice is going to have much, much more impact. China has, by the way, been very discreetly spending trillions of dollars in developing countries. About 100 countries have received its Road And Bridge Aid And Infrastructure projects and highways in kenya and ports in brazil. These are countries starved for modern infrastructure as the west has become more parsimonious about supporting developing countries, china has taken the opposite track and has effectively, through soft power and hard infrastructure, asserted its influence massively on a global scale and one of the things that came out of this is a commitment to counter that with western states. Lets check back on that because that means that they have to spend real dollars on places where they arent voters and that is always hard. Jeffrey, thank you very much. It was an understandable error by benjamin netenyahu. Just after the vote during sundays Special Session of the knesset approved the new government formed without him, the now ex Prime Minister returned to his seat. A parliamentary seat hes first occupied 25 years before almost to the day, in fact and where this oft described israeli hawk had been entitled to perch for the last 12 years. Entitled no longer. His seat was that designated for the leader of the opposition. Lyse, he seemed not quite able to believe it. Quite a lot of other people are not able to believe an israel without Benjamin Netanyahu in charge. Its an extraordinary Situation And One that does not mean the government replaces him is going to be around very long potentially either . To use the phrase you start with, America Is Back, Bibi Isjust biding his time to say, bibi is back. And i dont think anyone can rule out bibi, and hes already warning, listen, ive been in opposition too and hes already using every podium he can to talk about this dangerous left Wing Government that he is going to try to bring down. Even by the standards of the electoral politics, coalition politics of israel, this is a very, very rickety one. It goes from the far right, the nationalist parties, like Naftali Bennett, to secular left wing, very left wing, and including an Arab Islamist, an islamist arab party you could not get more of a motley coalition, and what is the glue that holds them together . To get Benjamin Netanyahu out of power. And they did. But they are going to be tested. Theyve already been tested. Theres been again, theres been israeli Air Strikes into gaza, incendiary balloons coming in from the gaza strip. There has been an ultranationalist march through the streets of the old city ofjerusalem. They will be tested and tested again. But i supposed, because Benjamin Netanyahu will continue to make it clear that he is waiting in the wings, perhaps that is something that will hold them together. But i think everyone is already wondering when will the next election be . One thing that might is Naftali Bennett and the sheer force of his personality because hes quite an interesting political character himself isnt he . He is fascinating. This is a really interesting story to watch. Naftali bennett has to be a contortionist to survive. He has this coalition in which he only has seven seats in the knesset and yet he heads this coalition, as lyse, pointed out, of this disparate group, which in fact, really covers the israel politics for perhaps the first time from his far hard right party, to centrist and the far left and the Arab Islamist party. For him to hold it together, its going to be extraordinary. The man is a tech billionaire. He is a former aide to netanyahu and so he has turned on his boss. He is against a two state solution. He has said very clearly he does not support the traditional Peace Process that we had been watching lurch back and forth for the last number of decades. And yet he says he is a liberal on gay rights, he wants to break the unions hold on the israeli economy. He picks and chooses what he believes in but the important thing is in his initial speech he said we have to talk together and we have to work together. It would be very interesting to see whether he can hold that coalition and if he genuinely believes that. He had a very direct message in his Opening Address to the knesset to russia and the other members of the Security Council and germany negotiating with iran at the moment, dont sign a nuclear deal. What clout do you think he has in that context, given this weekend we will see a change of president in iran . These are not real elections. These are pretty much staged. The idea of iran coming back into a deal is very important| and clearly something that President Biden i has thought through. The timing, also, was very interesting of bidens iran| diplomacy because it came before g7 and it came before his meeting with russia, with russian president vladimir putin. J i dont think, of course prime Minister Bennett has to say this is one of the lines of attack from bibi. Look, iran should rejoice now that we had this change of power, very sarcastic, and Mr Bennett will not be able to stand up to biden. There are huge interests on the us side and every side to bring iran back. Into a nuclear deal. One country that actually might listen to israel more, interestingly i think l is russia. Not out of great love for israel, though. President putin seemed to think that israel is an example and how to stand for your own i and how to take critical action and etc. But because russia might not want a deal with the us, for the us to have a deal with iran because that i will bring Oil And Gas back and that will give much greater leverage to President Biden. And the European Powers over russia because if iran. Gas and oil come back, that reduces Russias Ability to blackmail europe. How much is russia interested in israel . Because so many russians actually moved to israel after the collapse of the Soviet Union. There is a strong eastern European Diaspora in modern israel. Thats right. Russian is the second most spoken language in israel. I there is a huge diaspora. I think russia is very interested in israel. | it has an easy relationship. Historically, the Soviet Union was very much against israel| on the Hamas Side and russian leadership still meets Hamas L in moscow but as somebody who likes to go after his opponents abroad and Hit Out, putin has this institution and former kgb that. Runs the country now. Been anti semitic. Putin himself is not and as i said i think he has this admiration for Israelisl Audacity and its ability to Hit Out and look after its| people and i think its something that he does veryl much admire and appreciate. Could this make any difference to the departure of netanyahu on the palestinians . No. They simply do not agree at all on anything to do with the palestinian issue. They will try to work on the israeli domestic issues which are really urgent but Naftali Bennett has been on the record saying he opposes a palestinian state. There are members of his coalition who are strong proponents, still, of the two state solution, so that is not going to be an issue where we are expecting to see much progress but i think the palestinians will say there has not been any progress on the palestinian issue for as long as they can remember. Just time, before we go, for each of you to mark our cards about a story you think hasnt received enough attention arkady, first. I think the story that has not. It receives attention sporadically when it breaks into the news for largely very unfortunate reasons is belarus. That idea that people are being tortured and suppressed in this way and the plane has been hijacked as we know and the opponents have been snatched off the plane. Roman protasevich and his girlfriend, and tragic its happening in europe in the 21st century. This story has also much wider importance for the world. Notjust for humanitarian reasons, although they should not be underestimated, but belarus, the small European Country that has been in the midst of tragedies of the 20th Century is really important today for how the relationship shapes between the west and russia. They are watching that as a potential theatre of action. Russia considers it its backyard and the only Reason Lukashenko is in power, lets be honest, is because of russias backing. Its all the more important for America And Europe to impose sanctions now on his regime which will serve as a message to russia. Its also a message too, its a small country which including china, has been a traditional backer of lukashenko. A lot of things could be decided, a lot of decisions could be made, a lot of calculations made on the basis of what happens next in belarus. I think its the country we must watch very carefully and we should lend whatever support we can give to very brave people who are in jail, in terrible conditions. Thank you. I am going to take a different approach. I think the story that does not receive enough attention in its authors eyes and thats dominic cummings, clearly devastating revelations about Health Secretary Matt Hancock And Borisjohnson and their utter mismanagement of the covid 19 crisis early on. A year ago johnsons own lack of confidence in matt hancock. In another era there might have been resignations about this stuff but it shows you how accountability of politicians and people in public life has changed in the last number of years. Like Donald Trump, its acceptable that people just accept that Boris Johnson is kind of chaotic and kind of competent and now he says his own Health Secretary is and yet the story had no impact, Itjust Kind of dissipated and so we moved on. We do move on indeed. This story about one i of the very last corners of syria which is not controlled by president assads forces. According to the un People L living in the Northwest Corner are being kept alive by a lifeline which is a Border Crossing from turkey and that Cross Border Operation is at risk and it will. Expire july the 10th. President biden said he discussed it withl President Putin at Theiri Meeting but no decision was made and President Putin did not confirm that russia. Would not again veto that last Border Crossing. There used to be four. Its now because of the vetol by China And Russia its down to one and so the fate of millions of people resides on that un Security Council vote next month. Just briefly on russia, continuing concern in russia about whats happening in syria . Or has this conflict been parked . No, the conflict has not been parked, russia will use whatever cards its got. The confrontation with the us has not ended. Its a Bargaining Chip in putins relationship withJoe Biden. What putin wants most of all, this meeting that we began with has been all about firming up Red Lines and clarifying rules of engagement. For putin, the most important thing is that Biden And America keeps out of russian politics which russia sees as interference in essence of a conspiratorial mind and keeps it out of russian� s backyard. In return for that, syria is a very important Bargaining Chip that russia thinks it can trade. It doesnt really care about assad, it does not care about rebuilding the state in syria. It sees syria purely in transactional terms. Thank you all very much. Thank you for your company. I hope you have a good night. From All Of Us on the programme, goodbye. Hello. Like it or not, weve reached that Turning Point in the year summer solstice, The Longest Day on monday with nearly 19 hours of daylight in shetland. Just over 16. 5 across the channel islands. But across some southern areas, you will be lucky to see Sunrise Oi sunset. It is going to be a fairly cloudy and wet start to the week here. Brightening up as the week goes on as things turn a Bit Cloudier and more showery further north as we go through the week and to start with, rather cool, too. An area of low pressure to the South West of us which has thrown up some Weather Fronts to take us into the start of monday across southern counties of england. Its here where there will be more persistent rain on the South Coast first thing. Not a cold start here, but chillier elsewhere with clear skies away from this zone of thicker cloud in southern scotland, producing one or two showers. That Will Push Into Northern England slowly as we go through the day, Sunshine Either Side of it. But notice how the rain develops more widely in southern counties of england as we go through monday, inching up close to the South And East midlands, parts of east anglia, too, maybe even close to south east wales. But much of wales and the midlands stays dry and bright. Still got the north easterly breeze here and, where the rain is falling, temperatures will struggle to get above the mid teens. A few showers in Northern England but towards the western coast here, west wales and western scotland, we could get to around 19 20 celsius during the afternoon. Now, through monday night, Rain Still at times across these southern counties of england that will stop temperatures from falling but clearer skies midlands, wales northwards means its going to be a chilly start to tuesday morning. The first night after the summer solstice, we could even see A Touch Of Frost through some Shelter Valleys in the grampians thats because weve got an area of high pressure building up from the azores. Wrong side of us, though, because around it, were bringing in some cold air from the north as we go through tuesday. Cold relative to the time of year, of course, but it will help to clear away the rain eventually from the southernmost counties of england. Long, sunny spells for most to begin with, clouding over a touch through the afternoon across england and wales as the cloud builds up and spreads out. Not as chilly for some of you as monday will have been. Another Cool Night across england and wales as we go into wednesday. Here, the best of the dry and brighter weather, but clouds spitting in from the North West will bring in a few spots of rain or drizzle. Even with that cloud, though, slightly milder air, 18 19 celsius across the north, but 21 further south. Thursday will bring that cloud further south. In fact, The End of the week cloudy for most with a few splashes of rain at times, but temperatures near average forjune. Welcome to bbc news. Im david eades. Welcome if you watching here in the uk or around the globe. Our top stories in frances regional elections, the far right party of Marine Le Pen has failed to make the electoral breakthrough it was hoping for. Still no deal on reviving the iran nuclear agreement, while israels new Prime Minister urges World Powers not to negotiate with tehran. Nine children and one adult have been killed in a crash involving 18 vehicles in the us state of alabama. As President Biden announces hes heading to raleigh in North Carolina later this week to encourage more people we look at why the vaccine discrepancies around the country are more than party politics. Can the Olympic Games remain covid free

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