Kenneth kaunda, zambia s Founding President has died at the age of 97. In 2014, Zeinab Badawi travelled to the zambian capital to speak with Him Hardtalk asked him what 50 years of freedom had brought the people Of Zambia. Welcome to hardtalk in the capital. My Guest Today is kenneth kaunda. The leader of the struggle for independence here. He was imprisoned by the colonial authorities before he went on to become the first president of an independent zombie. This is a landmark year for the country and it celebrates its 50th Anniversary Independence from British Colonial Rule and he is turning 90. And what has independence brought the people Of Zambia and elsewhere on the continent. Kenneth kaunda. Welcome to hardtalk. Forthose kenneth kaunda. Welcome to hardtalk. For those of us who do not remember, just give us an idea of what it was really like to live under colonial rule in africa . It like to live under colonial rule in africa . Rule in africa . It was a terrible rule in africa . It was a terrible experience. I rule in africa . It was a terrible experience. Because, we are leaving apartheid, separate schools, separate hospitals, separate everything. And these schools only a handful of whites and browns, either schools have very few children and having many schools, many hospitals and everything well, but majority. How did it make you feel . That you feel humiliated . We how did it make you feel . That you feel humiliated . How did it make you feel . That you feel humiliated . We went to the Sho S You feel humiliated . We went to the sheps to you feel humiliated . We went to the sheps to go you feel humiliated . We went to the shops to go and you feel humiliated . We went to the shops to go and buy the shops to go and buy something and it was given to you through a pigeonhole, and you through a pigeonhole, and you got it knowing that youre angry about this. You do not like what is taking place and yet, you are quiet about it. So, it was a real hard time for us all. When day, i remember, i went to buy a bicycle and i paid some money through a pigeonhole and this man on the Others-place'>Others Place said, come on round and get your bicycle. I said, i paid forthis round and get your bicycle. I said, i paid for this bicycle through this pigeonhole. Please, give me this bicycle out of that place through this pigeonhole. And he said, what do you mean . I mean what im saying. I paid through the pigeonhole, get the bicycle outside the shop through the pigeonhole. So, we quarrelled and quarrelled and i got back my money. I did not get the bicycle. My money. I did not get the bi cle. , ,~ bicycle. You became very active in politics bicycle. You became very active in politics and bicycle. You became very active in politics and eventually, in politics and eventually, there was the united national Independence Party you became one of the most foremost fighters for Independence Symbols to become zambia. He paid a price for your agitation against the British Colonial presence. You are imprisoned, you were sentenced to Hard Labour in prison. That stiff your resolve . Labour in prison. That stiff your resolve . Labour in prison. That stiff our resolve . ,. ,. , your resolve . Several times and went to prison. Your resolve . Several times and went to prison. And your resolve . Several times and went to prison. And i your resolve . Several times and went to prison. And i continued | went to prison. And i continued and so, Fighting Racism in every colour Stop Byjust a Fighting Racism . Do you believe it was based on racism . 0f it was based on racism . Of course it was. What is the meaning of buying things through pigeonholes was what do you believe the british at the time were racist . Well, everything they were doing was racist. ~. ,. , ~. , racist. What was it like, that moment. Racist. What was it like, that moment, the racist. What was it like, that moment, the official racist. What was it like, that i moment, the Official Ceremony when your country became zambia, independent and you became the first president . It was a time, a good time for zambia. When that flag came down and hours went up. The queen Sent Down and hours went up. The queen sent a down and hours went up. The queen sent a representative to the independent ceremony and when he became zambia. You have spoken about your great Love And Respect for The Queen and how do you reconcile that sentiment with the fact that she presided over a government which was for siding over your people in the manner in which you say you had to fight them. How do you reconcile those two sentences admiring The Queen on one hand and also opposing the government that acted in her name . ,. , government that acted in her name . ,. , , government that acted in her name . ,. ,. , name . She has been a great Erson Name . She has been a great person for name . She has been a great person for the name . She has been a great person for the Beginning Name . She has been a great person for the beginning of i person for the beginning of time. And my feelings about her, even when Margaret Thatcher was prime minister, and we quarrelled, i still had respect for her, queen elizabeth Stop By Dc The Queen being above politics . No doubt about it. That is how we saw her. That is exactly how we saw her. That is exactly how we saw her. , a,. , her. Now, when Margaret Thatcher. Her. Now, when Margaret Thatcher, when her. Now, when Margaret Thatcher, when those her. Now, when Margaret L thatcher, when those going her. Now, when Margaret Thatcher, when those going to be held there, we went to The Queen and that, we thought we would have a good time there. The queen said, look. I am the head of the commonwealth. I am going there. Head of the commonwealth. I am going there going there. How do you know about the going there. How do you know about the story . Going there. How do you know about the story . I going there. How do you know about the story . I was going there. How do you know about the story . I was taught| about the story . I was taught about the story . I was taught about it. About the story . I was taught about It My about the story . I was taught about it. My people. About the story . I was taught about it. My people. And about the story . I was taught about it. My people. And letl about the story . I was taught i about it. My people. And let me tell you, i am going to go to the head of commonwealth and the head of commonwealth and The Queen came but i was told when Margaret Thatcher had done and so what did i do . I could not, i went that evening. And because she had that conference and what we should do with that, and show her that we are not against her in spite of what you tried to do to destroy the commonwealth by avoiding the commonwealth by avoiding The Queen. Coming to us. When The Queen. Coming to us. When the music was played, i got up and my wife got up and i went to pick her up and dancing nicely, my wife went dancing with her husband and that is followed is from the very beginning. 50 followed is from the very beginning followed is from the very bearinnin. ,. ,. Beginning. So you would dance with margaret beginning. So you would dance with Margaret Thatcher beginning. So you would dance with Margaret Thatcher in beginning. So you would dance with Margaret Thatcher in your| with Margaret Thatcher in your late wife was stenciled with dennis thatcher, that must� ve been quite a sight. You mentioned your role supporting the Freedom Movements in southern africa, but you are the last of the generation which was caught up in what was described as the Winds Of Change where africa was the colonised and theyre very intense period in the 1950s in the 1960s. You knew all the characters than and what was it like to be part of that period in history . The Founding Fathers Of Independent African States . I must say, when planning the future of africa and we were helping each Other. [30 future of africa and we were helping each Other. Helping each Other. Do you think that helping each Other. Do you think that those helping each Other. Do you think that those africans, i helping each Other. Do you i think that those africans, who led their countries into independence, that somehow that create hope was lost . That the people did not enjoy the benefits of decolonisation . Where we are today, where is gonna today . Where is on Gola Today . All right . How far has this gone . Today . All right . How far has this gone . Today . All right . How far has this one . ~ ,. , this gone . Why ditching exam be it a oneparty this gone . Why ditching exam be it a oneParty State this gone . Why ditching exam be it a oneParty State in this gone . Why ditching exam be it a oneParty State in 1972, it a one Party State in 1972, why did you decide the multiparty democracy was not right . Multiparty democracy was not riuht . ,. ,. , multiparty democracy was not riuht . , right . Look, iwill say this in the right right . Look, iwill say this in the right way. Right . Look, iwill say this in the right way. When right . Look, iwill say this in the right way. When you right . Look, iwill say this in the right way. When you are | the right way. When you are going to the elections and i went to see them in congress and i said look, lets come together and form a government of people Of Zambia together. And then he agreed. And so, we went forward, we one and made him Minister Of Education and made Him Minister of lands and became together, not because of, but because we knew if we did not do that, the people in South Africa would take us and they were very keen to destroy zambia. And so, they were akin to isolate me from Other leaders in zambia. And because of that, i went ahead and talk to the Other leaders in zambia, dont do that, dont listen to them. It will destroy the country stop by you did not want them to exploit different parties in zambia to induce them to undermine you. Those are justification for having one party . Are justification for having oneparty . Are justification for having onea 7~ ,. , oneparty . Why were you always the only Candidate Oneparty . Why were you always the only candidate on oneparty . Why were you always the only candidate on the oneparty . Why were you always the only candidate on the list the only candidate on the list to become president . Why didnt you give them a choice i to become president . Why didnt you give them a choice you give them a choice i was elated by you give them a choice i was elated by my you give them a choice i was elated by my people. You give them a choice i was elated by my people. The i you give them a choice i was i elated by my people. The only had our elated by my people. The only had your name elated by my people. The only had your name on elated by my people. The only had your name on the elated by my people. The only had your name on the ballot. L had your name on the ballot. When i was there, so many people were there and all the Other leaders were there. And they were all playing in the politics Of Zambia. They were all playing in the politics Of Zambia. When you listen to what politics Of Zambia. When you listen to what happened politics Of Zambia. When you listen to what happened in l listen to what happened in independent africa, do you believe the people of africa have enjoyed freedom from poverty . Because arguably, they have not when you look at the statistics over the past few decades. Sub saharan africa is still the least developed part of the world and people to this day still do not get their basic needs met in terms of shelter, Health Care and even food. Zambian, are they starving today . Theres, people do not have access to basic needs you have a very short Life Expectancy in zambia. Around 50 for both sexes. It is different what around 50 for both sexes. It 3 different what youre saying. If you look at what the government is doing in terms of agriculture today, its real development. Agriculture today, its real develoment. ,. , development. Looking at zambia, ou see a development. Looking at zambia, you see a situation development. Looking at zambia, you see a situation which development. Looking at zambia, you see a situation which is you see a situation which is been discussed across the continent of africa and that his ties with china. Youre probably the first african leader to bring the chinese into your country and a big major project at the time, the Trans Am Rail link, Linking Zambia with the port in tanzania. Fast forward, so many decades later and now, what do you think of the chinese presence in africa . It you think of the chinese presence in africa . Presence in africa . It is fantastic. Today, zambia is building schools, hospitals, clinics, zambia is building roads, and many different parts of the country. Zambia is going to grow very fast because of Chinas Assistance Stop by even those highly respected governments of them now suspended, they have talked about trade links between China And Africa and they say, they take our Natural Resources and the cell back cheap manufactured goods and he says Thatis Manufactured Goods and he says that is the essence of colonialism. He is implying that the chinese are practising a kind of neocolonialism. Does he not have a point . Ida. A kind of neocolonialism. Does he not have a point . No. China is not taking he not have a point . No. China is not taking over. He not have a point . No. China is not taking over. Theyre is not taking over. Theyre very good friends of ours. When ou, as very good friends of ours. When you. As a very good friends of ours. When you. As a key very good friends of ours. When you, as a key member very good friends of ours. When you, as a key member of very good friends of ours. When you, as a key member of the i you, as a key member of the Freedom Fighters who brought africa to independence in the 60s, look at the continent today, you must be fairly dismayed when you see some of the ethnic tensions that we see even today. The Central African Republic, tensions between muslims and christians, South Sudan and the ethnic christians there. Marley. Nigeria, we see there. Marley. Nigeria, we see the actions against their own people. That must fill with dismay when you that kind of conflict. ~. ,. ,. ,. , conflict. We cannot forget that in berlin. Conflict. We cannot forget that in berlin, 1984, conflict. We cannot forget that in berlin, 1984, the conflict. We cannot forget that in berlin, 1984, the berlin in berlin, 1984, the berlin conference, in berlin, 1984, the berlin conference, what in berlin, 1984, the berlin i conference, what happened there. ,. , there. You see it has taken a lona there. You see it has taken a long time there. You see it has taken a long time to there. You see it has taken a long time to gain there. You see it has taken a long time to gain our long time to gain our independence, it took a long Time Beginner independence. Share Time Beginner independence. Are ou Time Beginner independence. Are you saying that the ethnic tensions we see now in several countries in africa is because the colonial legacy . {lit countries in africa is because the colonial legacy . Of course it is. All the colonial legacy . Of course it is all of the colonial legacy . Of course it is. All of these the colonial legacy . Of course it is. All of these years it is. All of these years later . It is. All of these years later . How it is. All of these years later . How can it is. All of these years later . How can you it is. All of these years i later . How can you dodge it is. All of these years later . How can you dodge that was back you later . How can you dodge that was back you cant. Later . How can you dodge that was back you cant. You later . How can you dodge that was back you cant. You cant i was back you cant. You cant wrote about the impact of that conference. Conference. The carve up of africa that conference. The carve up of africa that youre conference. The carve up of africa that youre talking i africa that youre talking about. You are a committed christian, yourfather about. You are a committed christian, your father was a man of the church and why do you think today we see african muslims fighting african christians in the Central African Republic . Received the actions of vocal her arm, only actions of vocal her arm, only a small part of the muslim community poco. It a small part of the muslim community poco. A small part of the muslim community poco. It is terrible, i auree. Community poco. It is terrible, i agree and community poco. It is terrible, i agree. And we community poco. It is terrible, i agree. And we should community poco. It is terrible, i agree. And we should be we should not be fighting each Other. It is terrible. With the good lord is telling us, do onto Others as you would have them do unto you. You onto Others as you would have them do unto you. Them do unto you. You preach that message them do unto you. You preach that message of them do unto you. You preach that message of unity them do unto you. You preach that message of unity and that message of Unity And Fraternity as Nelson Mandela, your close friend did. Why is it that the message that you preach of Unity And Fraternity in the message that Nelson Mandela preached is not being listened to today by africans . It pains me to see christians and islam and all of these places fighting each Other. In the republic. Why are we doing that . What is happening . Christianity and the islamic faith should find a way of working together. Faith should find a way of working together. Faith should find a way of workin touether. ~ ,. ,. , working together. When you are resident working together. When you are president of working together. When you are president Of Zambia, working together. When you are president Of Zambia, he working together. When you are president Of Zambia, he struck. President Of Zambia, he struck a very unusual note you just struck. 0ne A very unusual note you just struck. One of the ten children died of Hiv Aids when youre still president and you brought him in in his dying days to the statehouse. A lot of people criticised you and said, why are you washing your Dirty Linen in public like that by bringing your Son Linen in public like that by Bringing Yourson and, linen in public like that by bringing your son and, there was a big stigma attached to hivaids at the was a big stigma attached to Hiv Aids at the time. This hivaids at the time. This disease is hivaids at the time. This disease is a hivaids at the time. This disease is a Disease Hiv aids at the time. In 3 disease is a disease unlike any Other. And by wife and i, our Son Suffering from the disease and because of the stigma that is against the disease, any child dying of aids, we thought it was, we should fight the stigma and my child, his wife, was staying with us and we brought the family to the statehouse to come and demonstrate to people Of Zambia that this stigma that their placing on this disease not right. And so, that is so we began to fight the stigma of aids as a family, as leaders of a nation. He said my child was a brilliant boy who had four children. Your son celebrating her 90th birthday, when you look at your long life, how do you think you can describe your legacy . I you think you can describe your lea . ,. , you think you can describe your lea . ~ ,. ,. , legacy . I think god that he Ruided Legacy . I think god that he guided me legacy . I think god that he guided me to legacy . I think god that he guided me to help legacy . I think god that he guided me to help fight guided me to help fight apartheid, fight colonialism, bring about a situation where race was not a problem. We all agree to work together as Human Beings and gods children. Going to respond to Gods Design is how i would like to see and be remembered and a committed to this type of situation. This type of situation. Kenneth kaunda, thank this type of situation. Kenneth kaunda, thank you this type of situation. Kenneth kaunda, thank you for this type of situation. Kenneth kaunda, thank you for coming | this type of situation. Kenneth l kaunda, thank you for coming in on hardtalk. Good evening. Said to be anOther deaf split by the fortunes and often sunny weather across northern, the chance once again for some thunderstorms or at least some torrential downpours of rain. Feeding up from the near continent, he can see that Weather System in the southeastern areas where is this ridge of high pressure is going to be keeping things mainly dry and settled across a good part of scotland and Northern Ireland, northwest england, wales and the far southwest after a fairly cool southwest start, there will be some sunshine. You seen him on the way of cloud and some sporadic outbreaks of rain and do not take the detail this too literally because its often hard to pin down the details in these Thunder Scenarios but there will be some heavy bursts of rain perhaps far west of the country, the West Midlands and p country, the West Midlands and up to parts of Lincolnshire And E structure, greatest chance of seeing Thunder And Lightning across the East Anglia and the force of these for you will also notice the strength of the Keene North easterly breeze. While it should still feel humid here, temperatures would still be a few good degrees down and run 16 in norwich. 20 and the sunshine in Plymouth Thatis and the sunshine in plymouth that is the expected high, but more generally we are looking at the mid to high teens. As we head through friday night, was to the wet weather clearing off into the north sea, still some cloud affecting eastern areas, clear spells and for the western further north, some fresh start to the weekend will of the weekend and will be fresher than it has been even across the southeast corner. 0n across the southeast corner. On saturday, will find us is between expected high, but more generally we are looking at the mid to high teens. As we head through friday night, was to the wet weather clearing off into the north sea, still some cloud affecting eastern areas, clear spells and for the western further north, some fresh start to the weekend and will be fresher than it has been even across the southeast corner. 0n been even across the southeast corner. On saturday, will find us as between the Weather Picture is a lot more complex, low Pressure Swinging in from the west and the System Drive gets went northwards. What it means is that most places will see outbreaks of rain from time to time to the day in the could be some heavy thunder downpours creeping in towards the south and this temperatures ranging from 21 in london, 22 Engorge Tojust 12 degrees in from 21 in london, 22 engorge to just 12 degrees in aberdeen. This is Bbc News im Lewis Vaugham jones with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. The Us Supreme Court rejects the latest republican led challenge to the law known as 0bamacare the third time the law has survived a vote. Tigray� s worsening crisis the un is warning of an imminent famine, unless drastic measures are taken, eight months since war broke out. The biggest political party in Northern Ireland the dup is in crisis as its new leader Edwin Poots Resignsjust weeks after taking up thejob. Dj and Producer David Guetta sells his catalogue of music for 100 Million in a deal that includes his future recordings. 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