Now on bbc news, the media show. Hello, we are talking radio today. Good old fashioned radio, with its cosy celebrity presenters, its familiar blend of pop songs, but also, lets face it, traffic updates, Car Insurance ads, annoying jingles. And if you dont like it, well, you willjust have to wait for those bits to be over, Orwill You . Because one of the uks Commercial Radio groups is launching ad free versions of their stations for a monthly fee. Is this radios Secret Weapon to defeat spotify and the streaming services . That is the question we will be asking paul keenan, president of audio at bauer. Paul is in charge of a whole host of stations, such as magic, kiss, absolute, and many, many others. Paul, you cant have the time to listen to all of those every morning, so do you vary the Clock Radio or do you just compromise and listen to the Today Programme . You can be honest, you are amongst friends. I have the privilege of listening to Fabulous Radio from the uk and across seven other countries around europe where we operate as well. So four nordic countries, most recently the republic of ireland, poland and slovakia, and everywhere we are, we find that radio as a medium, as a platform, is enduring and growing. Very diplomatic answer. You are not naming one. But also with us today are Iain Lee and Katherine Boyle, presenters of the late Night Alternative. Iain, for our listeners who are not familiar, how would you describe the programme . It is a surreal, psychedelic Phone In Show, where instead of Stirring Hate and pointing out others that look and sound different and saying, hate them, we celebrate love, life and art. And to be difficult, you are not actually on late at night any more, you are on in the morning. Yes, we decided we could mix it up because we are now our own| bosses and we can call these shots ourselves, cant we . L yes, you started out on Talk Radio, and then you took it to twitch, the video Streaming Platform, and we are going to hear later on in the show how you have now gone direct to consumer, you are selling it to fans, basically, right . Yes, on patreon, so they pay us directly and we give them different things for different tiers of money. And also joining us on Todays Programme is the European Tech correspondent for the financial times and Yih Choung teh, Strategy And Research director at ofcom, because we are going to start the show by looking at how the pandemic has supercharged some of the trends we have been seeing in media, in Digital Media in particular. So, Yih Choung, you have published a Report Today for ofcom looking at our changing online habits. Who have been the big winners from lockdown . Well, i would first observe that the uk was already well on its way to being an online nation, but the pandemic has really accelerated our migration to online services. So much so that britain Tops Other European Countries for the amount of time we spent online during lockdown, with everything from shopping, socialising, culture, Work And Entertainment moving online. But you found that almost a third of time spent online was just on things like google and facebook. There is definitely a lot of time spent on some of those major platforms, but there is a bit of a mixture. I think a quite striking fact was that 92 of three and four year olds are using sites like youtube and tiktok. Of course, tiktok has been a huge success during the pandemic, growing from 3 Million beforehand to 14 Million in march. And tiktok is still kind of a new kid on the block, and yet the big Tech Platforms are keeping watch very closely. I noticed this week that youtube has rolled out their own version of tiktok. Yes, tiktok has been this phenomenon over the last year or two in the short video of snacking video space, as people call it. And everybody is trying tojump on that bandwagon. Even though tiktok was not| necessarily the first to do it. So, yeah, youtube has launched shorts in a few markets and that will try to take. Tiktok on, but it is hardly the only one. Instagram has reels, snapchat has its own version. And in india, where youtube was the first market where it was launched, india has five or six different competitors for short videos, so this is definitely an Exploding Space for young people. I so theyre alljust copying Each Other basically. What is so new and innovative about that . Yes, tiktok itself was not i innovative as a video type, there was vine before it and short video is not. A radical concept. But partly, i think, the pandemic has helped to grow it a lot because it isjust the right sort of format to be sitting around at Home And Skipping through multiple videos. But it is alsojust a different type of platform to bring. In creators, and so the way. Youtube positioned shorts is, if you are creative cannot. Create an entire ten minute video, which is slick and nicely done, you should not be afraid to leap in and just do 60 seconds. So i think it is not that these things are radical or revolutionary concepts,. But they are just what young people who consume most of this media are enjoying a lot, notjust consuming it, but creating for it. Paul keenan, president of audio at bauer, let me bring you in here. We will talk with you in a moment about your relationship with the Tech Companies, but lets zoom out a bit. Give us a sense of the scale of bauer� s Radio Business in the uk, because you are one of the big beasts, but you are one of a handful of big companies that now dominate the sector. Yes, we operate Radio Services in all of the major Music Genres across the uk, we have national brands like absolute, kiss, magic and we have complimentary local services delivered under brands like Greatest Hits and hits radio, so we have a combination of national entertainment and local content, which Listeners Value hugely in the uk. I get what you are saying, that Listeners Value it hugely, but definitely in the last decade or so, we have seen quirky local independent Radio Stations get swallowed up by big companies. For some people at home, they will think they have really lost their local flavour of radio station. What would you say to that . Our Radio Listening continues to grow and we see that listeners want to access local news, local services together with nationally recognised, national quality content, and it is the combination of those that we think makes radio compelling. What makes it local, though . I was flicking through one of your stations earlier and i heard Greatest Hits somerset, but i wasnt sure what made it somerset. The news and the local information that that service provides. And there is local content as well. And what has been the driver for this consolidation . Would you say the dominance of Tech Companies in the Advertising Market has forced bauer and your competitors, of course, into wrapping up local stations into big national brands that are well loved . I think there has been an opportunity for companies like ours to use and see the internet as a way of expanding their offer to listeners and to increase the targeting that they offer to advertisers. But that environment is more competitive than the traditional radio model, and i think that environment seems to us to appreciate Scale And Technology investments that groups such as ours can make. And can support innovation for listeners in a way that our services are accessed, on smartphones or Smart Speakers or on pcs and so on. I want to ask you about Smart Speakers, actually, because they are now a very significant platform for listeners of bauer, right . But do you have the same level of control in terms of distribution with Smart Speakers that you would do with traditional Fm Frequencies . Well, we have found that listening to the radio via a Smart Speaker was a very early Behaviour Or Habit that listeners found. They found those devices are a very good way of extending Radio Listeners, but you are right in the sense that that listening is mediated through a third Party Amazon with its Alexa Voice Assistant and the relationship of those Platforms Today has been very strong. But as that develops in the future, we think it is important that Radio Listeners continue to enjoy unfettered access to those services on those platforms, and we think that is the way in which regulation is heading in the uk and across europe. There is a new Digital Markets Act that is being considered by the eu and i think this kind of activity is being considered in the uk as well. Which is that listeners should continue to access their favourite Radio Stations on these Smart Speakers really simply in the future and that the integrity of their services should continue. Yih choung, i saw you nodding along away there. I will not ask you to comment on whether ofcom would like an expanded role in regulating Smart Speakers, but what do you make of it . Well, i think ultimately we care about consumers and how they can access content, as paul says. At the moment, we have regulation around a traditional broadcast media, so for example, on tv, an electronic programme guide, we look at channels and we ensure that the Public Service broadcasters get prominence. I think there is a fascinating question we are looking at as increasingly people say, alexa, Show Me something entertaining. What happens at that point . What content gets served up on what device and how do you secure the brilliant great british content that audiences tell us that they love, which reflect the uk back to themselves on . But for something like that, we will need new legislation, so that is a question ultimately for government and parliament, but we are reviewing the dynamic and the Way Technology is changing. Madhumita, what do you think . I think this is notjust unique to radio, so companies, technology companies being mediated, we have seen Print Media and there has been a big battle going on over there. In the Advertising Market so just this week, france fined google 220 Million euros for anti Trust Abuse in advertising. And again, their allegation was that they are using their Market Dominance and advertising to cut out their competitors. And, you know, ithink that there is going to be a move towards more regulation, looking at platforms that not only serve up the content but often they are participants in the ecosystem as well, like with google. You know, it forms the marketplace but also has its own exchange and its own seller technologies and things. And similarly, amazon has a speaker on which it serves other Peoples Content but it also creates its own content. And so i think there has to be a little bit more, or there will be more sort of lines drawn around when they are just serving this up and acting as a platform and when they are participants in a competitive landscape. Paul, youre nodding along there, and i guess it is a bit brave new world, right . But tell us about your new Subscription Service that you are launching now to compete. Why would i want to pay for a subscription when i can still listen to the radio for free . You can indeed, but for some of our listeners, Specialist Music is one of their life passions. They invest a lot of their discretionary income in following a particular genre of music or artist, and for them it is a very important part of their life. And what we think is that they would want to delve even deeper into that experience, so we think that they would be prepared to pay a very modest amount, just £3. 99 a month for listeners of skala, jazz fm, Kerrang And Planet rock for a premium service. And again, they get an Ad Break free service with more music, they get 20 new on demand listening shows, or channels, and they get specialist on demand programming, which really takes them deep into their life passion. So we think that the combination of those services or easily delivered and accessed through the app, which they always already enjoy our services on, is a very compelling offer. And you are only rolling it out across the four at the moment. Yes, we are. This is an innovative offer and there is a lot for us to learn. We think we are onto something really strong already. We are seeing live trialists convert to subscriptions at roughly 85 , which is very strong, and we are seeing a good level of demand for our new content that we are offering those listeners as well. I was smiling as you said it is for music specialists with a real passion in it, and i was thinking, is that why you are not rolling it across magic . And i am no Music Snob myself, i love magic, but i was just thinking, the people that will go for this at the moment are people with such a niche interest. Magic is fantastically popular. This is what we call superfans, those people who would almost define themselves by their passion for music. For example, in planet rock, there is a collection of listeners there that formed their own blog of walking dogs. So they are the muttley crew, as they called themselves. So this is a very important part of their lives and we think indulging their passion in this really rich Music Experience will work. But surely you see it as the future, do you see it as the future, Subscription Radio . We think it is a very good complement to what we do already, which is live linear broadcasting, ever increasing on demand audio, which is complimentary to it, so we think it is part of our ongoing offer. And if it works as we expect it to, we will take it to the other seven countries in which we operate. Are you doing this because you are anticipating a huge drop in Advertising Revenue over the next ten years . Not at all. Our forecast for Advertising Revenue over the next ten years is very good. Advertisers continue to see that radio is the platform that offers meaningful scale at fantastic prices and delivers a highly effective return on investment. Absolutely, we think Advertising Prospects are very good. Madhumita, what do you make of that . It is unique, i guess, i because in other areas, we see everybody trying to move away from reliance on advertising. I mean, even the Internet Giants who basically are the biggest, who Actuallyl Benefit from advertising more than anybody else on earth, really. I like we saw twitter this week has actuallyjust launched twitter blue, which is its premium Subscription Service, and i smiled when paul said it his service was for super fans because they also have something that might be released in future twitter which they call super follow. So, you know, this analogous idea here of people who havej really ardent followers i or who are Power Users of twitter would want to pay i to either follow certain people or have certain extra features. But although they kind of sell this as a benefit to users, i think it is really part of a broader Plan And Strategy for twitter amongst others, including facebook too, to move away from just Advertising Revenue as its only source of profit. On the digital front, i i think that is because, you know, the platforms like apple, for example, which controls so much of how we consume media nowadays, are becoming, kind of closing their doors a bit more and becoming much more privacy conscious, and actually closing i off that hosepipe of data that advertisers rely on to target their adverts. And paul will know more i about how that might affect Radio Listeners, but in terms of online audiences, you know, targeting is kind of the big Cash Cow for the advertising industry, i and if someone like apple says you cannot track people any more and they need to optl in to be tracked or they are going to hide Ip Addressesl so nobody knows wherel their users sit any more, that is a huge problem for people who rely. On advertising, including massive companies likel facebook. Yes, we will move on to Iain And Katherine in a second, but, paul, i want to ask you, how many subscribers do have to have to make it worthwhile . You know, we are not setting ourselves any sort of target and we think that this kind of leverage is quite a lot of what we do already. So it is a relatively inexpensive Trial And Innovation at this stage for an incredible consumer offer. So we are very confident that this will kind of fly. Let me bring in Iain Lee and Katherine Boyle here, because your Career Kind of mirrors what we are talking about here, and, in fact, i should say for listeners, the three of us actually worked together about nine or ten years ago, where i was briefly your producer on breakfast radio, iain. We had to get up at 3 30am, it was wonderful working with you but horrendous getting up at that time. I know, it is a much more civilised time and the three of us look much better for it as well, right . Tell us about yourjourney, because you two were broadcasting the late Night Alternative on Talk Radio and then you are moved to twitch, which is the massive Streaming Platform owned by amazon. How did that come about . When i was no longer required at Talk Radio. Here is a weird thing, Jeremy Vine tweeted, best of luck, iain, i hope you get a job soon, and someone at twitch saw that and got in touch and they were expanding. Generally, it is people playing Video Games on there and they were expanding to making their own content and they got in touch and said, would you and katherine like to bring the Phone In Show over to twitch for a year and see how that goes . So that is how we moved to twitch and we have been there for the last 12 months. And so how did it go online . How did the finances work in that case . Did twitch pay you a salary . Did you make money from advertising . Twitch paid us. We had a different relationship to most people in that twitch paid us a certain amount each month and on top of that, we advertised on the show and we had a lot of sponsors that would come and we would give them something that Radio Advertising did, you get the same ad every time, but we could do personalised adverts and we could make them different and make them really silly and all those kind of things. We had subscriptions, donations, so that is how it made money. And now you guys are moving from twitch, well, you have moved briefly to youtube and now youre moving to patreon. Tell us about that. Well, well, well. The deal with twitch is coming to an end and we realised that it was time to either go it alone or go and do something completely different, because as you know, a moment to get hired in the Radio Industry is ever more difficult and a lot of people, for understandable reasons, are pulling up the drawbridge while they take care of ever smaller stations. Everyone is fighting for survival. So were just going to have to see if we can this work. And at this point, in our heads, it is an experiment for about six months to see if we can make it fly. We are heading towards where we need to be financially to make it sustainable. We are not quite there yet, we still have a month to go and we are hopeful that we can make it work. But how does it work . This is quite fascinating, isnt it . You are basically charging a sliding fee to your viewers and depending on how much they pay, that will dictate how much content they get from you. That is precisely it. There are different offerings. So at the moment we do a daily podcast that goes out absolutely free and a lot of people, for them, it is like watching television on demand for them. They might not be able to make it for the late night shows, especially when we do the really late night ones, and for a lot of people, they are not the people that phone in, so it doesnt matter. That level of interactivity is not what they are after. What they want is the conversation. And there is an intimacy about late nights that you do not get anywhere else. So the podcasts have been incredibly popular and the lowest, i think, or the second lowest subscription will get you that content. Yes, there are different tiers. So one of the lower tiers you get the podcast, the next tier you get to see the whole show because the show will go behind a pay wall, it is a visual show and you get the podcast. The next tier up from that, you get loads of bonus podcasts, and the reason we are doing it . We cannot get a job. Last year. I admire your bluntness, it is a hard industry, i agree. This time last year, we won the best Radio Moment Award and now nobody will talk to us. I dont know why. So we are doing this. And loads of people have done it and made it a success. Danny baker is doing it and has about 2000 subscribers. 0urfriend stephen page, a great singer songwriter, Is Making A Living primarily doing that. There have been a lot of artists that have moved to patreon as covid kind of kicked in and they were not able to go out and do live shows and things like that and it is a direct way where fans can pay the artist directly and there is no agents fee, none of that, it comes straight to us. Patreon take a little bit of it, but. Thank you for being so candid. How many subscribers do you need to make a living . 1000. 1000 . 1000. We need 1000. Because remember we split it between the Two Of Us equally. Yeah, so we would need 1000 and we are about 600 at the moment, so we are some way off. It is a punt. We do not know if we have enough, and i call them fans with a small f, but we do not know if there will be enough people interested, but it is a punt. But what else are we going to do . I want to feed my kids and pay my mortgage. And i am old fashioned, im used to having an agent and they charge a fee and i get a monthly thing, and ifeel embarrassed saying to people, hey, come and pay me directly. But it is a new thing that is acceptable and people out there find it acceptable to do that, to pay that way. And what is the most you are charging a listener . We have a £150 tier. We thought, lets put that up there for a laugh and people have signed up. But mainly it is £4. 99 and £6. 66, but people use patreon not just for the content, it is because they want to support the artist specifically. So some of them pay and dont even listen to the content. They just want to help out their favourite artists. So this is where radio really is intimate. You are being rewarded by the loyalty of your listeners. Yes, and equally, when we said our deal with twitch was coming to an end, people were calling us and saying, but i need this show, so what can we do to help . There was a will there as well, so we will see how far that goodwill goes, but. Iain, can you even imagine going back to one of the big broadcasters now . Yes. Listen, i am not doing this because i am some great bold warrior that is like, yes, screw everybody, screw the big companies. No, i would love a job. If people want to come, im going to say it, patreon. Com iainandkatherine that is great and it would work in correspondence with doing a job as well. I want to work. I want to work and we cannot get any work at the moment, so that is why we are. I should say, other platforms are available. Yes, but they are not as good as ours. This is not us, hey, i know what. Lets stick it to the man. No, i want to feed my kids and pay my bills and at the moment, this is the only opportunity to do it. And a lot of people have made it work really, really well. Hopefully we can. Paul keenan, the Relationship Radio listeners develop with presenters can be really powerful, and as you know, you have hired simon mayo, they are incredibly loyal. So can you envisage more radio stars copying what iain is trying . I think that the transition that radio, it is a wonderful world, radio into the wider world of audio, it is creating such a lot of opportunities for content creators to try new things. So i think what Iain And Katherine are doing will teach us all something about how to connect one to one with audiences and how to build loyalty, what works in that context and what doesnt, because this move towards greater personalisation and greater targeting is something, you know, that train has left the station and that is where we are all headed. Do you have anyjobs, paul . That is a genuine question. Well, thank you very much. Im sorry, we have run out of time. Thank you very much to all of my guests today. That is it. Madhumita murgia, European Tech correspondent for the financial times, paul keenan, president of audio at bauer, Iain Lee, presenter of the late Night Alternative, Katherine Boyle, producer of the late Night Alternative, and Yih Choung teh, Strategy And Research director at 0fcom. The media show will be back the same time next week. Thanks for watching. Hello. Monday was a day of contrast. Still hot and humid in london. The temperatures were soaring by the middle of the afternoon, we reached the highest temperatures recorded so far this year and that was 30 celsius in greater london. Now, it was a different story further north and west because of the weak Weather Front that was spilling in across scotland into the north of england. Behind it, the Wind Direction changing to a northwesterly and that brought with it some fresher air and a marked contrast. Look at sundays highs across northern ireland, 25 degrees, the warmest day of the year here. By monday, those temperatures were down quite sharply. It looks as though that fresher feel will continue to be the theme of the weather into tuesday, as well. Starting off the good deal of dry weather, or weak Weather Front just a band of cloud lingering first thing in the morning but there will be a lot of sunshine coming through in area of low pressure bringing in some rain into western reaches of scotland by the middle part of the day and the winds increasing here. So, were looking at around ten to 18 degrees as the overall height but 25 is not out of the question. Down the touch, but still that is 77 fahrenheit. That Weather Front is bringing the rain is going to bring some heavy bursts of rain for a time across scotland overnight, so move into wednesday, it will be a fairly weak affair by then as it moves out of the Scottish Border into the north of england and parts of north wales. Behind it well see some sunshine as well, top temperatures of around 1a to 18 degrees ahead of it and starting to drag more Heat And Humidity once again, 28 degrees not out of the question. And it is this Heat And Humidity which may well trigger some sharp thundery downpours towards the end of the working week. Why . Weve got this warm humid air starting to move up from spain and into france and could trigger some sharp thunderstorms moving across the channel. Theres a lot of uncertainty just where these thunderstorms are likely to crop up and so, its Worth Keeping Abreast of the forecast but anywhere across Eastern England could be at risk of real torrential thundery downpours from time to time. Top temperatures down considerably and we are looking at 13 to 22 degrees. This is bbc news. Im david eades. Our top Stories President biden underlines americas strong support for nato, as leaders warn of the challenge posed by china. We talked about the long term systemic challenges that chinas activities pose to our collective security today. And how can the us respond to those challenges ill ask a former us ambassador to nato. Borisjohnson� s vision of Post Brexit Global Trading partnerships begins with the uk and australia agreeing the broad terms of a deal. Crossing mountains, deserts, the sea and even a warzone weve a Special Report on ethiopian migrants trying to reach saudi arabia. And are there diamonds in them there hills . Fortune Seekers Flock to a field in south africa