It is quite hot and sweaty. It is. Is is really inconvenient, and obviously on the flight as well, but it is worth it. A teenager appears in court charged with conspiracy to murder, following the shooting of sasha johnson, the black lives matter activist. The 6 Trillion plan. President biden pushes the biggest Spending Programme since World War ii to try to reboot americas economy. Another lost summer for Uk Musicalfestivals a report by mps blames the government for not backing an Insurance Safety Net for organisers. That is it for now, i will be back with all the main story is at the top of the hour. Now on Bbc News. It� s time for the media show. Welcome. Its official, Martin Bashir used lies and deception to secure the biggest Tv Interview of all time. Lord dysons report into the whole affair raises questions about the governance of the bbc. In fact, the Prime Minister says the bbc needs to make sure that nothing like this ever happens again. So, on todays media show, we are tackling this head on. We are exploring the relationship between reporters and their editors. We are asking what tighter safeguards At The Bbc will actually look and feel like. We are exploring the impact of this Scandal Onjournalism more broadly. Let me introduce my guests. Ive got richard tate, former Editor In Chief of itn. Now a Professor Ofjournalism at cardiff diversity. At cardiff university. Dorothy byrne, former head of news and current affairs at channel four. David yelland, former editor of The Sun and now runs a pr firm, Kitchen Table partners. John ware is an investigative reporter and fronted last Weeks Panorama on Martin Bashir and the bbc. Jane martinson is Professor Ofjournalism at city college. Welcome to you all. Jane, you have been writing about this for the guardian. How do you assess the scale of the reaction to this story . The scale of the reaction, i mean, you know, this is a devastating report for the bbc. It involved the Royal Family, it involved, you know, wrongdoing and, sort of, terrible mishandling of a wrongdoing 25 years ago including members of the bbc who then went on to hold senior jobs, and, of course, which i am sure we will come on to talk about, a reporter who subsequently left and then returned to the bbcjust five years ago. So, the reaction was obviously going to be huge. The timing is terrible for the bbc, and i would argue terrible for all of us who care about ethicaljournalism and public service broadcasting. The government has made no secret of wanting to, you know, look into the bbc. There have been lots of comments from, including the Prime Minister to other cabinet ministers, there is a Psb Review going on. The bbc itself has got a Midterm Charter Review which shouldve just been about sort of relatively small issue of governance, and it looks like him and it looks like if you listen to the ministerial statements over the past few days, to be broadened out. We are going to get a new head of ofcom. For so many reasons this is huge. I would argue, you know, such a shame when we actually need the bbc we are talking on a day when the Prime Ministers former right Hand Man has just said how terribly the government handled the Covid Pandemic last year. We need the bbc to be leading the reporting on that. Its a huge story, and not dealing with the complaints of so many years ago. I hear you. We have a lot to get there. We have a lot to get through. I just briefly want a bit of context for this, because richard sharp, chairman of the bbc, spoke to us on monday. Weve got Tim Davie, the dg, he was on the Today Programme on tuesday. They have both announced further internal investigations. Its fair to say thAt The Bbc is in crisis mode, but how does that crisis compare to bbc crises of the past . Ooh, that. You could argue the bbc has had many crises, and i compared, when i wrote about this last week, i compared it they are different, but the Jimmy Saville crisis, cliff richard, problems happen At The Bbc when they believe in journalism where The End justifies the means. And that has no place in ethicaljournalism. Of course, we want the bbc to break stories, to do greatjournalism, but not when means are unethical, as it was found to be with this particular case. So i think there are questions for the bbc, and i think Tim Davie� s interview in particular where he talked about two points that actually were not dealt with by dyson, the 2016 hiring. Why an earth was Martin Bashir brought back, given his history . And also the Whistle Blowing factor. To me, the terrible point of this is the only person to truly suffer at the time was the Freelance Designer who was asked simply to mock up a bank report. That is shocking to me. We will. The bbc should never allow that. We will unpick this in a bit, but i want to zoom out and really focus on the relationship between reporters and their editors. I want to look at the methods that reporters use as well to gain trust from a source, from a potential interviewee. Martin bashir� s editor was, of course, the late Steve Hewlett, who in his Post Panorama Career became founding presenter of the media show. Now, john, you are an investigative journalist. You have been in the panorama office. I was going to say forever, not quite forever, but you have been there long time. We are familiar with your work on screen. Can you give us a sense of before you get to that point, before the cameras are rolling, what is the work and the Ground Work that has to be dOne . What are some of the tools that you use . Well, it depends what sort of story it is. I mean, if its against criminals or is about criminals or, you know, dishOnest people, then subterfuge is authorised, but only on a very strict basis. Obviously, in this case, Martin Bashir. John, we are just getting your hand knocking the desk, i want to hear you. So just. So, sorry. Martin bashir had used some really deceitful subterfuge and, obviously, the princess was not a criminal, she was a young and rather vulnerable woman. These days, if you want to do anything like that, it would be, i think, very closely monitored. I dont think it was in 1995. I think Martin Bashir didnt have a producer, to the extent that he didnt have any sort of supervision, and it was really Steve Hewlett, the editor, and obviously steve had a lot of other things to do as well. So, a Producer Wasnt brought in to the process until right at the last moment literally days before the interview itself, and that was reallyjust to handle the sort of technicalities of the actual production of the interview. They. That wouldnt happen today. Things have shifted. David, if i can ask you, and again, this is in a historical context, when you were the editor of The Sun in the � 90s, how much did you know about what your journalists were doing on a day to Day Basis and the tactics they were using . Well, of course the answer to that is that I Cant possibly know that. I thought i knew quite a lot, and had a very good Head I of news, who i put in place because i had known him a long, long time and i trusted him. I think pretty much i knew what was going on. As an editor of any kind, you never know where a reporter has got a story and how they have gOne about that story. But what i would say is that i think there is a certain naivete At The Bbc in the case of Martin Bashir, which wouldnt have happened, oddly and ironically, in Fleet Street. I think Fleet Street is much better, actually, at having suspicion about its own reporters. I certainly was always asking questions of that kind. But tell me this, if you had a particular reporter that was courting a source, was going out for meetings, would you generally have known about the ins and outs of those meetings . I think so, yes. I think, look, there is no doubt that this era, the 90s, was the wild west, right . Its complete different now. There is much more governance. The irony of this is that the governance changes which the government say. They want the bbc to adopt, they have already adopted. This is already in place. And its the same in newspapers. I mean, you know, partly. Because all kinds of things and levison and the decline of the power of those papers, the kind of things that went on then would not go on now. I also think its important, perhaps, not to defend i Martin Bashir, i dont know. Martin bashir, but i do always have sympathy with somebody where the entire world turns. Against them, and that is what has happened to Martin Bashirj in the last few days. Its important to remember that the culture then was very different. I mean, you know, iwas at. The sun when i was in a very junior position, i hasten to add, when kelvin was still editing, when we had squidgy gate, which was the tape between Princess Diana and james gilbey, Which Isjust a few years before this. There were all kinds of things going on at that time. There was a. And also what is not, i you know, never really remembered is that, you know, when the duke of cambridge i made his statement, which i thought was slightly unwise, in fact, quite unwise, but understandable, what he perhaps doesnt understand is that his i mother was using a number ofjournalists, including andrew morton, as we know, but others as well, and his father was very close to people at The Sun, or people close to his father were close to people, and camilla, so stuart higgins, my. Predecessor at The Sun, had a lot of stories from that side of things, particularly from camilla and people around her. I of course, and. So, either side were playing that game, and so when she did what she did, the princess agreed to be interviewed, | it should be seen in the context of a huge battle that was going on between those two sides. Of course, and i think thats really useful. What i dont want to do is go down the path of everyOne was doing it, because we know what Martin Bashir was doing. Absolutely, im not excusing it. Im trying to put it in context. Of course, of course, and thats really important. Dorothy, as a former head of news and current affairs at channel 4, how much would you expect your editors to know about what journalists were doing and what does that extend to . Does it extend to, you know, do they know about their One-calls'>PhOne Calls . Do they know about the E Mails they are sending . Well, with a story of the profile of this One, i would expect the editor and the producer to be across all the details. This wasntjust any other story, this was an exceptional and extraordinary story. So i am assuming that Steve Hewlett a very clever man knew a lot about whats Martin Bashir was doing. Hes not in a position now to tell us how much he did know, but he would know, definitely, you would know a lot of detail. Richard, can i bring you in here . Because i know you are wearing two hats for us today. I want to start off with you wearing your former Editor In Chief at itn hat. In that role, did you ever involve yourself in discussions between journalists, and sources and interviewees . No, ididnt. And i think the Itn System was based on delegating that responsibility to the editors of the different services, for the service for dorothy at channel 4, there is One for itv, there is One for 5. Essentially, there is a lot of trust injournalism. What happened with Martin Bashir was a very successful and disgraceful deception of his editor and of his management. And i think its quite interesting that this was a story, dorothy is right, this is a story that had the potential to go really badly wrong from the beginning. Clearly, with the benefit of hindsight, i agree with the judgment about Steve Hewlett, he was a very good editor. He made the wrong call, which was he thought he could supervise it, the early stages of the project himself. By The End of the project, if you look at something like john berts memoirs, half the Bbc Management is crawling all over it because, of course, their other issue was whether they could transmit it, given that the chairman was married to the Queens Lady in waiting. Of course, there is a lot of knots in this story. David, i want to know from your perspective, you have spoken about your relationship with journalists that were working for you at The Sun. Did you ever get to a point of turning down a story because there were question marks over how access had been gained . Oh, yes. Many times. Well, more than five times in five years, yeah, which is quite a few. Without libeling anyOne, can you kind of give us a notion of context . I think an editor. Well, i will answer that by saying this, i think. An editor sets a culture. And, you know, you have to be prepared to be unpopular, and i was very unpopular| within my own newsroom because i was quite conservative after having had my fingers burned in the first year. Now, i knew Steve Hewlett very well, i wasnt a friend, but i really liked him and got on well with him. But i do think its important to say that the politics within panorama have always been toxic. Everybody knows that. In fact, there are two big toxic institutions here,. The Royal Family and panorama, and when the two clashed, it all went wrong. I just. Something went wrong at panorama, which, you know, it doesnt surprise me. John, i just want to bring john in because you winced when david just said that the culture at panorama is toxic. You winced, why did you wince . Well, toxic, it was competitive, it was quite gossipy. I mean, thats, you know, in some ways, thats quite a healthy thing. There were a few toxic elements to it, i suppose, but i dont think, its a different place, i dont go there very much these days, but they are all sort of freelancers. EveryOne has been sacked. Laughing. 0rlaid off. But to the extent that i do go, it seems to be rather a sort of docile, actually, and i think all the venom, such as there was, has drained away. I dont mean now. So back, would you say it was toxic back then, john . Well. It was lively, you know, i dont know about toxic. Lively and toxic. I dont know, i mean, it was fun it was fun, 0k. So the Reporter Editor relationship, i appreciate that context, but we know that there were mechanisms in play here further up the bbc that failed to stop what happened from happening. Richard, if i can come to you with your other hat on now, you were a bbc governor appointed in 200a. Give us a sense of what that role was about, and at what stage of the bbc� s journalism would you have got involved . Well, what happened in 1995 was under the old governance system. When i came in, the governors were on their way out, largely because theyd Made A hash of the hatton affair, which is another case of a story that went wrong. So we were appointed to run a new system of governance called the trust, and what happened there was that if there had been a complaint, it would be not judged only by the bbcs own internal staff, what was happening was the bbc were marking their own homework, essentially. The complaints were being held and investigated inside the bbc. The trustees were meant to be independent of the bbc. They were not executives. And we had an editorial Standards Committee and we employed outside investigators, they could be compliance experts, they could be media lawyers, they could be experienced former editors, with serious former editors. And with serious complaints, they would investigate those complaints. They would talk to the bbc, they would talk to the complainant, and they would give a report to us, and then we would decide what we thought about it, and the rule of the game was if the editorial Standards Committee said it was wrong, that was The End of the discussion. Bbc had to do accept it. Bbc staff didnt like that very much, i have to say. But the authority of the trust was that we could oblige the bbc to make an on air apology, oblige them to change the way they were doing things, and it was a system that didnt work perfect. The trust had lots of other problems, and it was then shut down in 2016. Richard, in fact, can i ask. In fact, that bit of the system didnt work badly. If i can ask you this specifically, your knowledge of the Bbc Governance and the kind of various incarnations its been through, was there in your mind any point where the processes in Place Wouldve stopped the Diana Panorama actually going out . Would the processes have stopped . Yes, i think they would. In the case of the trust, there was an editorial Standards System run at the top of the bbc, which was chaired by mark byford, which i think would have meant it had had a problem like this begun to emerge, it might have been taking away from the line management. But im not. I have to say im not certain. I think the fundamental problem is that when things go this badly wrong, its very hard for organisations to look after themselves. They need some sort of external intervention to see how things are really happening. I mean, i think, in a way, whats going on at present is a good example of how the News System is stronger. Because whats going on now is, as i understand it, that the chairman has asked the new bbc boards editorial Standards Committee, which has a couple of very strong editorial figures on it Ian Hargreaves and robbie gibb, they have asked them to look into things like how can the governance be improved . How can Whistle Blowing be sorted out . Those sorts of issues. It is the right thing to do. Richard, if i can ask you for a brief response because i want to bring jane in in a second, this new oversight body, at what point do you think that new body will risk meddling in actualjournalism . Is that a concern for you . Yeah, theres a huge problem here, which is almost all of our systems are about post transmission. Theyre about once something has gOne wrong, how do you investigate it and put it right . And theres a real problem with intervening too early because the danger is that a complaint can be an attempt to stop the programme going out. So, i dont think theres an easy solution to this at all. Theres not an easy solution. Jane, youre nodding. Tell me whats your take on this. Yeah, i would agree with that. Actually, just on the previous thing about the Reporter Editor, we should point out Steve Hewlett, the Dyson Report cleared Steve Hewlett, said there wasnt evidence. And actually i think to Davids Point as well, talking about the 90s being the wild west, you know, you were saying that itsl different on Fleet Street, david, but you and i know that phOne hacking, for example, i when theres a great story, a reporter comes in with i a great story, actually what happens, and its exactly what happened here, is that lots of people in authority, i lots of people who shouldve l been the boss of Martin Bashir didnt want to ask questionsi because it was a great story. She did an amazing interview. He won awards. So, you know, and look at phOne hacking. I mean, how many editors defended themselves by saying, we never knew. So, anyway, iwould just like to sort of say that l i think that this is a culture ofjournalism, that when theres a great scoop, actually most people, theres a Human Desire not to ask the question. Which is where we get to regulation, and richards right, this is such. A difficult question. Because you want journalism. What did Tim Davie say . He wanted brave and confident journalism At The Bbc. Dont we all . Thats what all journalism should be. And the last thing you want is for doubt and the worry. About the ramifications to stop transmission. L 0n the other hand, the ideal that these things were faked in order to get her to agree to the interview is terrible. | so, you need to talk about the culture of good journalism. Of course, a culture shift. Dorothy, do you think there is a new form of Bbc Governance that you can imagine that could have stopped Martin Bashir . And with your former role as head of news and current affairs at channel 4, do you think this is something that should just apply to the bbc or do you think this needs to be something that kind of applies across broadcasters, maybe with the power of 0fcom . Well, at the time of these events, as richard says, the bbc was regulating itself. The bbc is now regulated by 0fcom, which i think is an excellent regulator. And all other broadcasters are regulated by ofcom. We dont know if this wouldve been prevented if there had been a proper system of regulation then, but there wasnt. What im sure about is that we dont need extra committees of old white blokes no offence, men, to those i can see here all sitting around opining. We need strong, independent journalism, and if mistakes are made, they need to be remedied as quickly as possible. You know, One of the scandals here was that its taken so long for the truth to be admitted by the bbc. Not actually for the truth to come out, because weve known the key points here. So, ive heard people call for some massive new regulatory framework, but im not sure that that is what we need. Thank you. John, youre on the Front Line with this absolutely. Is there a concern that a new form of governance could end up meddling with your day to Day Work . Well, i think it would be a travesty if it did. I mean, hOnestly, im rather weary, if i may say so, at these sort of Armchair Critics who opine about editorial values from the comfort of their offices like Charles Moore, who described. Who said there was a systemic problem in Bbc Editorial values. I mean, it is simply nonsense. Let me explain the Assault Course you go through to get almost anything on air on panorama these days. Quite apart from the wokery, youve got safeguarding trust, youve got safeguarding values, youve got safeguarding impartiality, youve got Risk Assessment forms, youve got. I mean, hOnest to god, you know, if you want to. And when it comes to the really important sort of subterfuge, like secret recording and so on, quite rightly, quite rightly, its a hell of a job to get authority for that. You have to fill in reams and reams and reams. I mean, this is so closely scrutinised. People like Charles Moore and this, whats his name, julian knight, they have no idea what its actually like getting a programme together in the bbc. The One thing i would say i think the bbc is vulnerable on, and i dont want to sound complacent. I mean, ijust Made A programme about Martin Bashir. You know, he was an extremely calculating. And you cannot underestimate the extent to which this guy was, you know, plotted out. I mean, really, in a very considered, calculating, psychologically targeted way, Step By step. I mean, it was very, very insidious, and it. But, you know, where i think the bbc is vulnerable is i think it still tends to be too defensive when some criticism is aired. And we saw that actually. Its interesting. For anyOne listening, ive never seen all the panellists nodding so much. Its worth pointing out Martin Bashir did say, obviously i regret what i did. It was wrong. He says it had no bearing on anything. Thats absolutely not true. Meaning diana going on to do the interview. We are out of time. To dorothy byrne, richard tait, jane martinson, David Yelland and john ware, thank you all for your time today. You have been listening to the media show. I am mobeen azhar. Have a great week ahead. The Bank Holiday Weekend is upon us and, as promised, the weather is looking good. Not completely clear today with a little bit of cloud around, but it will become increasingly sunny into tomorrow and the temperatures will rise to. Not by an awful lot, but by a couple of degrees and just a reminder The Sun is very strong this time of year and also the pollen might be troubling you a little bit over the next few days. So High Pressure firmly in charge of the uk, Thejet Stream and Weather Fronts well out to sea, so things are looking good. High pressure is not completely clear, there is a bit of cloud stuck in it, and in fact we have got low Grey Clouds got low Grey Clouds out in the North Sea and scattered clouds elsewhere. In fact, today, if you are very unlucky you could catch One or two showers, but the temperatures in The Sunshine pretty decent, 19 21 right across this country. Heres the but for tomorrow. The low Grey Cloud that is stuck in the High Pressure may drift inland during the course of the night. There is an onshore wind out towards the east, so that means counties all along. In fact, from the Northern Isles along the East Coast down towards East Anglia may start off cloudy. Yes, High Pressure is in charge, but even when its High Pressure skies could be a little grey, especially in the morning. You can see that Grey Cloud towards the east drifting as far as the midlands, but very quickly it melts away. However, during the course of the afternoon just the possibility that that Cloud May Lap onto some of the coasts, so all the way from lerwick, the coasts of aberdeenshire, you can see it just follows the shape of the coastline, but if you are unlucky it may actually engulf you, that cloud, so for example it could be 15 degrees under The Cloud in norwich and if The Cloud breaks it will be around 20. Elsewhere inland it is a beautiful sunny day. That fine weather continues into monday, seeing a plume of warm air coming in from france and out to sea we have got a Weather Front keeping the cold air at bay, so things are not changing into Bank Holiday monday. It is still going to be warm. I think we will hit the Mid 20s in One or two spots across the south and also central areas of the uk. The outlook is certainly going to last until tuesday. Wednesday is still a bit of a question mark. We could see thunderstorms heading our way. Bye bye this is Bbc News the headlines at five thousands of Manchester City and chelsea fans are in portugal where the teams meet for the Champions League final in a few hours time. You mean absolutely everything. But every trophy that is available to us apart from this One. You every trophy that is available to us apart from this One. Apart from this One. You have to wear the mask apart from this One. You have to wear the mask around apart from this One. You have to wear the mask around the apart from this One. You have to wear the mask around the split i apart from this One. You have to | wear the mask around the split it apart from this One. You have to i wear the mask around the split it is really wear the mask around the split it is really convenient and obviously on the flight really convenient and obviously on the flight as well. It is worth it. Some the flight as well. It is worth it. Some of the flight as well. It is worth it. Some of those fence and started to arrive here in the dragon stadium. For this, the Champions League at eight oclock