Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. Who holds the reins of power in pakistan . Prime minister Imran Khan leads a government elected in 2018. If pakistan is a genuine democracy, then that is where power resides. But many government critics say that the Military Dictates much that happens within pakistan, particularly when it comes to Silencing Opposition to the covert power of the so called Deep State. Well, my guest is Information Minister Fawad chaudhry. What happened to Imran Khans pledge to deliver clean, transparent governance . Fawad chaudhry in islamabad, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for having me. Minister, do you accept it is a basic obligation of any government which claims to be democratic that it protects Freedom Of Expression and it protects independent journalism . Do you accept that . Of course. This is fundamental of Pakistans Constitution cited in article 19, freedom of speech. But the problem you have come at minister, is that it is quite clear day after day, month after month that your government is not protecting journalists and isnt protecting freedom of speech. Well, i would obviously contest this claim, because pakistan is probably one of the freest states as far as media is concerned. We have about 43 international channels, including the bbc here in pakistan. We have 112 of our own private channels, 258 fm channels and 1569 print publications. So you can imagine the kind of media we have, the kind of size of media itself defies your claim. Minister. Pakistan is one of the most. Yeah, minister, isense you are reading some of those figures off some notes, and if you are reading assiduously, you will have read in the overnight Media Reporting of the attack on a leading independent Journalist And Youtuber asad ali toor. Now, you know that gunmen entered his residence, they threatened him, they beat him brutally and they did all of that in the name of the isi, pakistans intelligence service. That happened within the last 2a hours. Well, yes, there has been an incident, i took notice of that incident last night. I sent the senior Police Officers to investigate the case. We have found even the cctv footages We Got, We Got the footages of the people who were involved in this case and we are dealing with them, but it is fashionable for the western media to accuse isi on every time when such incidents to care. Incidents happen. I know that there has been a history of people using and taking names of Intelligence Agencies to get immigration also. Youre Information Minister, arent you . What are you doing to protectjournalists . Because the case i referred to in the last 2a hours is by no means isolated. Illjust point you to one more in the recent past, last month, absar alam, A Prominentjournalist who was shot in broad daylight. He was lucky to survive the incident. This happens month after month. You have been in office for some time, what are you doing about it . Well, frankly, in the media world, incidents do happen and such incidents do happen everywhere in The World, and pakistan is no exception to that. No, no, minister, incidents like this dont happen in many countries. The organisation Reporters Without Borders has clear evidence that the Situation Forjournalists in pakistan is much, much more dangerous than most other countries around The World and you are clearly finding the situation deteriorating rather than improving. What are you doing about it . Well, i obviously would like to contest this claim again. The reason is that this question is without context. The situation in pakistan is not dangerous for journalists only. The situation in the past for pakistan was dangerous for every citizen, because we were fighting this war on terrorism. And, yes, manyjournalists, especially the field journalists, have been killed in this war, but so have many other citizens. This is not something that was limited to journalists. Even the former Prime Minister was actually assassinated in one of the terrorist attacks. So that is a totally different context in which that figure actually. But, minister, let me stop you for a second if i may. The people who are carrying out these attacks on independent journalists are not the people you call terrorists. They are people who are working for the state. They are involved in the Security And Intelligence services. Reporters without borders says, quote, the influence of the military establishment, which cannot stand independent journalism, has increased dramatically since Imran Khan came to power. Impunity for crimes of Violence Againstjournalists is total. So again, the question, what are you doing about it . Well, the number of journalists that. The attacks on journalists has actually improved since the Prime Minister Imran Khan has taken over, and when you name any pakistani Organisation Or Intelligence agency, you are bound to produce evidence of that as well. So all the incidents you have mentioned were investigated and actually, in most of the cases, they were apprehended. But in these two incidents that you have specifically mentioned, even the investigation has not concluded, so i do not know under what pretext you have concluded that the state must be involved in this case. I dont see any reason of this conclusion that you have opted to reached. This isntjust about the fact that individual journalists are being attacked and sometimes murdered. It is about the real limits this puts upon the ability of Media Operators to actually operate independence with independence and freedom. Im going to quote you now, a well known Journalist And Host of well known Tv Show in your country, Tallat Hussain, on geo tv. He said, long after Imran Khan had come to power, he said, my programmes have been repeatedly censored. I was told any suggestion the 2018 elections were rigged or the army was part of running the government by Imran Khan was unacceptable. This is direct State Interference in what the media in your country is allowed to say. Well, first, i dont even consider Tallat Hussain a journalist because i dont see his programme on television for much before Prime Minister Imran Khan took over. His programme was taken off because he was not getting ratings. In pakistan, the media obviously, like any other media, it is commercial media, they look at. Obviously, they retain people who get ratings for them and he wasnt getting ratings and obviously they have to off load him. As i told you earlier, and i would again like to read, you know, we have about 112 private channels and 43 national channels. With this kind of thing, the Mass Media we have, how can you intimidate media . How can the state be accused of intimidating media . Pakistan, if you compare us with any other third world country, or you compare us even with the first world, we probably have more free media than the first world. The bbc. I dont know whether you respect us as an independent news organisation. We certainly strive to be independent and impartial. The bbc offered a half Hour Urdu News programme to one of your channels, i think they are called aajtv. We had to come at the bbc, stop offering that half hour of news because aajtv was not able to broadcast it without interfering with the bbc� s editorial content, and it was clear that that interference came under pressure from the pakistan authorities. Now, again, you are the Information Minister, you have a Background Working in the media yourself. You told me at the beginning of this interview you felt it was a key to any democracy to allow a free media. That is simply not happening in your country. Wont you even recognise that . We dont have enough Bbc World journalists in pakistan. The fact of the matter is that Bbc World is one of the most watched international channels in pakistan and we have never obstrcuted its transmission by any means. So what happens in the case of many channels, you have to abide by certain laws, local laws. They were not complied with. If they comply with it, they are allowed to do that. And let me quote one example about the irresponsible attitude of Bbc Urdu here. Again, i would say i have huge respect for the bbc as an organisation. There was a woman who was freed from blasphemy charges. There was a headline on Bbc Urdu that holland ambassador had gone to see her from the jail. So the Holland Embassy had to close down for ten days but they got threats after that news and that news was wrong and unfortunately, and there was no action against their own people. Isnt The Truth, minister, that when it comes to all of these issues, from attacks on individual journalists to censorship, systematic censorship, that in The End, you as Information Minister have no real Power Or Control at all . There are other elements in the pakistani state, some call them the Deep State, who have powers that are far superior and dominate your own. I am the Information Minister of The Worlds fifth largest states. I am Information Minister of one of the seven nuclear states. No one can dare undermine me. I am here with the full authority and i decide in pakistan what will happen and what is happening. So can we say that it is your personal responsibility, then, this new set of Internet Regulations that came into force towards The End of last year, which according both to independent media analysts and to some of The Worlds most powerful Internet Media companies, including google and twitter, are extremely damaging to Freedom Of Expression and reach a new level of State Control on freedom of Expression Online in your country . Can you specify any regulation that led you to conclude what you have just said . Well, to be specific, under the new regulations, Social Media companies, Internet Service providers, they face huge fines of millions of dollars for failure to curb the sharing of content which, to quote it, is deemed to be defamatory of islam, promoting terror, Hate Speech, or in any content viewed as endangering National Security. You add up all of those subjective delineations together and it gives the state enormous power to censor what is seen online in pakistan. Well, frankly, Hate Speech is a universally recognised thing. It is a universally recognised fact that has to go and all states and organisations are under the duty to not allow Hate Speech. As far as the rest of. The law is qualified to. Anything that endangers National Security, who decides what endangers National Security . That law has never been promulgated. The Social Media rules are under discussion and the part that you are referring to was never promulgated. What, you are saying that you are backing down . That is never going to become law, isnt it . Well, yes. This. Right now, this is not the law. Interesting, so, what, you have listened to all the alarm that has been expressed by, for example, the asia internet coalition, google, facebook, twitter and many other companies involved in that, who said that they were desperately alarmed by the scope of this new law as well as the opaque process by which the rules were developed . You have listened to them, have you, and you now accept they were right to be so alarmed . No, i have huge respect for these Technology Companies and i will certainly listen to them, because i want them to come and establish their offices in pakistan and we want to do business with them. I have huge respect for them and the contributions they have made to The World this. Ithink. I am an admirer of their work, so why would i not listen to them . Number one. Number two is that the conclusions that you have arrived at our completely based on, i would say, cycnicism. So there is no problem as far as censorship is concerned. We would like to welcome all these companies and i would welcome them with an open heart. When people consider Imran Khans government, they try to compare it with what came before. Here are the words of a respected analyst of pakistan at chatham house, who says what is different about this government is the dropping of all pretense that it conducts Policy Independent of the military. Previous governments sparred with the top brass, but Imran Khan seems happy to do just as he is told. That is the perception your government has inside the country and outside. Well, this may be a perception of some indian influenced think tanks. This is not the perception here in pakistan. Of independent people. I would say Imran Khan is one of the most popular Prime Ministers in pakistan and as you said earlier, dont undermine the government of pakistan. Imran khan has received more than nearly 200 Million votes, it is not a joke. Imran khan is the Prime Minister of a nuclear state, he takes the decisions, the cabinet takes the decisions. And, yes, we have a very good relationship with the former establishment, the term you have used so often. They are Part And Parcel of pakistans system. We have huge respect for their opinion, but the Decision Making rests with the Prime Minister and the government. See, if one looks at the facts, it seems Imran Khan is not prepared to take on the military, despite promises he was made before he was elected. He repeatedly promised to end the decades of so called disappearances, that is opposition figures, journalists, lawyers, human rights activists, who have disappeared in your country, notjust under the tenure of Imran Khan, but over many years. But The Truth is, since he became Prime Minister, those disappearances have continued and in some areas and instances have actually increased in number. Again, why is the government not confronting the isi, the security establishment, the Deep State . First, lets be really clear, pakistans isi, pakistans army respects Human Rightsjust as any other civilian governments would do. They are one of the most civilised armies of The World and they are the most responsible army of The World and people in pakistan and The World respect them them for their role, what Role Theyve played in. Minister, in eight months in 2020, 139 people were forcibly abducted in baluchistan, just one of your provinces. You are saying that your army is one of the most civilised in The World . Yeah. The reason these Missing Persons have a history, most of the Missing Persons have actually voluntarily gone into troubled areas and when they are missing, you accuse agencies and the state for that. And let me tell you, the least number of Missing Persons are reported in Imran Khans government. We are the only government who have just passed a law against disappearance. We have made, you know, the illegal Confinement A criminal offence. And now the bill has been passed by the government and it will go to parliament. This is one leap forward in the case of enforced disappearance, as you have said. And also, please dont ignore the background in pakistan, the background in which all of this has happened. We faced one of the worst wars in pakistan. The kind of Terrorism Pakistan faced, very few other nations could resist that. And the fact of the matter is that we lost 17,000 precious lives in that and, for example, in guantanamo bay, was taken. So dont misinterpret this. Dont misinterpret the situation and make conclusions. You told me just minutes ago that you believe Imran Khan was the most popular Prime Minister in pakistans history. Im looking at a late April Gallup poll which shows 38 of respondents thought pakistan was heading in roughly the right Direction But A1 now believe going in the wrong direction. If one looks at the economic woes are pakistan under Imran Khan, the fact that you have had an unprecedented recession, the fact that even now, Growth Rates are minimal and your Unemployment And Poverty rates are really, really high, there is a profound problem. Imran� s promises to the people have not been delivered. Actually, unfortunately, again, i have to say that i dont agree with your conclusion. Right now, Pakistans Growth Rate is 3. 98 , 4 , which is one of the highest in The World, because despite all this Covid Crisis that The World has faced, this is another story about how Pakistan Faced covid and what a Success Story Pakistan has been as far as. Yeah, independent economists disputed that figure of 3. 9 , as you know very well. They say growth this year will be around 1. 5 . You have inflation running at 11 , it was 11 , the basic foodstuffs that your poorest people rely on are going up in price and you can tell me whatever you like, but all of the independent evidence is that many, many pakistanis who voted for Imran Khan are now deeply disappointed. The people who voted for the Prime Minister Imran Khan are still ardent fans and i believe even in the next elections, Imran Khan will get the maximum votes and will be Prime Minister again. But again, i would like to dispute your take on the economy. You see, 1100 Billion Rupees have been shifted from urban economy to rural economy. Pakistan this year, we have four bumper crops, except cotton, the beef is the highest in the history of pakistan. The maize is the highest in the history of pakistan, the rice is highest in the history of pakistan, i would suggest just more through the consumption figures, just go through the number of. I understand, minister. Minister, i understand that it is yourjob to put a positive gloss on the situation. That is what you are paid to do. How do you put a positive gloss on the fact that only 1 of your population thus far has been vaccinated against covid 19 . That compares, admittedly, the crisis in india is much deeper than in pakistan, but they have at least vaccinated 11 . In the uk it is getting on to well over 60 have had a first dose, why is pakistan one of The Worlds laggards when it comes to vaccination . Well, again, please allow me to read this Quote From A Un journalist. He said pakistan has been a good example for The World with its pandemic related policies. Pakistan has done better than other countries. 1 of your people are vaccinated, minister. You dont need to read that off a card. You know it and i know it. No, im quoting the quote of a journalist, i dont want to be wrong, you know . As far as the vaccines are concerned, right now i think we have vaccinated 5. 5 Million people and we are among the 3a top countries in The World as far as vaccinations are concerned. We have to end, but here are some very salutary words from a former director of the who about pakistan and the challenges ahead, particularly the dangers, given your vaccination rate, of a future Covid Crisis. He says, our systems will not be able to deliver, god forbid, if we reach even a bit of what is happening in neighbouring india. Does that give you sleepless nights, too . Well, frankly, pakistan as far as covid is concerned, it is a great success story. The partial Lockdown Strategy that Prime Minister Imran Khan implemented in pakistan was a great success. Only 2. 2 Mortality Rates right now, and overall covid is less than 6 . This is far better than any other country in the region. Fawad chaudhry in islamabad, we have to end there. I thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. Thank you. Hello there. May has been very chilly so far. In scotland and northern ireland, they are yet to get above 20 degrees. That will change this weekend and this is the highest scotland has been in 20 a0 years. This Weather Front has installed across many western areas, producing more cloud than thursday and there will be some patchy Rain And Drizzle across western areas. It means there will be called a start, temperatures in double figures, but rather grey across western areas, miss as well. Rain coming and going, lots of cloud across parts of northern and eastern scotland, Eastern Wales to begin with. That will break up, we will see sunny spells. We could see sunny spells into East Anglia and lincolnshire. Temperatures down on thursday. Showers to end in the east, patchy drizzle in the west with extensive cloud, but that. To break up more as we go into saturday. The best chance of some Saturday Sunshine will be in eastern areas and general develop more widely through the Weekend And Warmth will return, more than we saw on thursday. The saturday in the west, misty and murky to begin with. One of two isolated showers. More sunshine around into the afternoon, best in eastern areas, temperatures high teens and low 20s. Scotland singer first 20 Degrees Temperature of the year. Widespread sunny skies to begin with, Patchy Cloud Rolling into the day, probably one must more widely and we could reach 23 degrees in parts of the south and east. 2122 to the west of northern ireland. High pressure holds ongoing Interbank Holiday monday. The Weather Front starting to sneak in, it will be a struggle. Most places will stay dry, sticking with sunshine and the longer you have the sunshine, the warmer it is. Temperatures widely into the 20s. Goodbye for now. This is Bbc News im Sally Bundock with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around The World. 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