Now on Bbc News Social Media, anti Social Media, breaking news, faking news this is the programme about a revolution in media, with mobeen azhar. Welcome. Israel and the palestinians it is a story that we have been stuck on for a long time. But the battleground is shifting. I am talking tiktok media tutorials, infographics on instagram, and a twitter spat between a supermodel and the israeli government. It might sound petty, but Social Media is now a weapon of war. The lines have been drawn, hearts and minds are the prize. To chat about this and a whole lot of other stuff, i have a lovely bunch of people with me. Sarah is visiting Assistant Professor of Israel Studies at Northwestern University in the usa. Gabriel is professor of communications at the university of haifa. Rehan writes for the Middle East eye. Chris is a journalist and a Social Media expert. And also with us today, anna, the Editorial Director of a magazine aimed at kids, there is no swiping required. Anna, we will talk to you a bit later. I want to know briefly, i know your Subscription Numbers have gone up significantly. You are one of the fastest growing magazines in the uk right now. Is that correct . Yeah, that is absolutely right. We gained 36 more subscribers last year and we hit 100,000 subscribers to the magazine, going from strength to strength at the moment. What is on the cover this week . This week, we have news of the big beach clean up. This is a huge initiative to clean upi million miles worth of beach across the uk. A bit of good news, very good. Chris, i want to come to you briefly to talk about one of the massive stories this week, which is about the merger of Warner Media and discovery, kind of getting married really. What does this mean, give us a sense of the scale what does it mean to us as listeners and viewers . I think it can mean an awful lot because an awful lot because we have the battle for online Streaming Video which is dominated by the likes of netflix, amazon, Disney obviously coming around the corner with 100 Million subscribers worldwide. Then you have at T Warner media, which is Hbo And Discovery which is channels like quest in the uk. They are very much on the back end, but combined, they could have 60 Million subscribers. I think it is a way to fight with the big boys. Yes, absolutely. Lets go back to the question at the top of the Programme Today Israel and the palestinians, that has been dominating headlines for more than a week now. This long running local conflict is now playing out in real time on a global stage, drawing in billions of Social Media users for a battle about who gets to decide the narrative. Of course, the wrongs on the rights of all of that. Gabriel, tell us what you are seeing playing out in front of you on Social Media right now. The use of Social Media during conflicts, terrorism, war times, is not new. We have seen a lot of those in previous conflicts. Notjust in the Middle East, all over the world. What troubles me right now, and i must say that i am looking at the middle East Conflict right now as a Case Study in a long range of abusive Social Media. Of abuse of Social Media. And what worries me is the way that Social Media is abused, regardless of whether you are palestinian or israeli, western, eastern, northern, southern, we should be worried about the way that Social Media is used as weapons instead of instruments of peace, understanding. It is being abused and manipulated. And more troubling, if i may conclude my opening statement, is that we are not talking any more about those big giants like twitter, instagram, youtube, but the new players in the field like tiktok exposing many young children who are very gullible, innocent, manipulated by those messages. Regardless of who is right or wrong, the use of Social Media and especially those new platforms like tiktok, should be troubling us. Give me an example, you speak about an abuse of power or an abuse of a platform. Give me example of where you see that happening. I saw one video which was something i wouldnt like to see, just adding more fuel to the fire, excuse the pun. When there was a burning tree near the al aqsa mosque, and the angle of the video was showing Israelis Dancing at the burning mosque. Israelis were dancing because they were in jerusalem, the mosque was not burning, ti was a tree. But the message, the narrative was israelis are dancing because the mosque is burning. This is the way the video was presented, especially to audiences that are not quite aware of, lets say, fake news and manipulated videos. And instead of showing the suffering and the agony involved in conflicts like that, you just add fuel to the fire. I know you have been writing about this this week, Social Media use in particular. What is your take on what we are seeing playing out at the moment . I have been writing over the past two weeks, particularly with regard to celebrities and the reaction generally on Social Media from high profile figures. We have seen a huge number of singers, actors, footballers, speaking out on Social Media, sending messages of solidarity. The list a few Names Oscar winning actress miley davies, singers including the weekend, dewar lipper, the weekend, dua lipa, zayn malik, mohamed salah, riyad mahrez, benjamin mendes. There have been so many figures who have spoken out on Social Media. To the point where we could almost say that there has definitely been a growth in terms of the number of celebrities that have spoken out, in comparison perhaps to other instances of an escalation of violence in israel and the occupied palestinian territories. And it is potentially linked to the black Lives Matter Movement having taken place last year. And we saw similar calls from users on Social Media asking celebrities, asking Social Media influencers to use their very, very large platforms to inform their followers about what is happening and also to share messages of solidarity. And we have seen so, so many. There has been some pushback as well, hasnt there . There has been this idea, and, sarah, i will bring you in in a second, there has been this idea and i guess i would call it a stick to your own Lane Type of idea. You are celebrities, why do you need to be talking about this type of stuff . What is your take on that . Yes, there has been pushback, and i think for many different reasons. In many different ways, and one of the most, the biggest pushback which you mentioned at the top of the show was the official Israel Account, the official israeli Twitter Account singling out the palestinian Heritage Model Bella Hadid, who has been very, very vocal, probably the most vocal celebrity that i have seen. I willjump in because i want to come back to bella against the state of israel in a second. Sarah, i want your take more broadly on the idea of celebrities getting involved with this stuff. I think you tweeted recently, you said, heres the thing about celebrity hot takes on israel palestine, i dont try to walk down runways in my lingerie, host a Comedy Programme or play a sold out stadium, so you dont try to replace years of historical language and cultural study on the ground for a tiktok. Tell us what you really think, why dont you . Why do you have a problem with this . Im sorry, it was a bit cheeky. I actually love celebrity culture, im a consumer of Pop Culture like everybody else. And i see celebrities i follow on Social Media using Celebrity Advocate for the causes that i believe in and putting their celebrity to very good use. What what i am concerned about is that many young people are using Social Media as their sole source of information, and with Great Power comes great responsibility for these and celebrities. I hope they will use the platform to not only to entertain or to a point but also to educate, because unfortunately many people in the world are not taking my University Course on the israeli and reading 300 page books, they will be getting information from a graphic. That carries a great weight of responsibility. Lets go back to Bella Hadid, can you explain for people who dont necessarily know why Bella Hadid holds so much power . Why is this so important and why have we got to a stage where the official israeli Twitter Account is taking on a supermodel . So, Bella Hadid as i mentioned is a Palestinian American model with Tens Of Millions of followers on instagram. She is the sister of gigi, who has a similar number of followers. They have both been very outspoken over the past two weeks, sharing instagram posts and instagram stories about the situation, and it kind of culminated in the case of Bella Hadid with her attending a rally of a pro palestinian rally in brooklyn in New York this weekend. So, what the official israel Twitter Account pulled her up on was that they accused her of Advocating Forjewish people to be thrown into the sea, which many people have taken issue with that analysis of what she did. What she actually did was she participated in a chant which said from the river to the sea, palestine will be free. Which many palestinian activists and advocates say is a Rallying Call for all palestinians that live within israel and within the occupied territories to kind of call for their liberation and their freedom. So it is very, very interesting to see official Social Media accounts entering themselves into the online conversation. And that has not been the only example, actually the son of the prime minister benjamin netanyahu, he tweeted last week that it is very difficult to compete with Palestinian Celebrities such as bella Hadid And Gigi hadid and that the only israeli celebrity that could potentially compete is wonder Woman Actress Gail gadot. He kind of lamented the fact that she remained like switzerland, indicating that she was neutral and he was not very happy with her input. So the fact that the prime Ministers Son is talking about the strength of pro Palestinian Celebrities shows that the online debate is very important. You raise an important point because Bella Hadid has 42 Million followers online, that is a bigger audience than many news outlets. Sarah, why do you think many people will be listening to this thinking, why does the israeli state official Twitter Account have to get into a Ding Dong with a supermodel . Can you come back on the point specifically about what was being chanted and why it was important for the israelis to engage with this . First of all, i saw statistics myself which i think that there are 7 millionjews living in the state of israel, and 15 millionjews worldwide. Her Instagram Account absolutely, by multiple, exceeds the actual population that she may be addressing all that she may be addressing or that she may be commenting on. So i think her following is absolutely stupendous, and i think that is why it attracts the attention of the state of israel and the official account. But i think The State Of Israel In General has not really succeeded in the forum of Public Diplomacy or what is often called a kind of propaganda, israeli propaganda. And they would like to have those kinds of successes, they have been trying to cultivate their celebrities of their own. But they just dont have the ability to attract the number of followers and frankly to have the kind of Pop Culture resonance coming from a small country which does not have all that many prominent celebrities in order to do so. So i think it is a little Bit Ofjealousy on the part of the official Israel Account of how much Power Someone like Bella Hadid has in the social Media Sphere as opposed to an official account of a nation state. But i do think that the slogan that was being chanted there is an undertone, possibly, of ethnic cleansing, from the river to the sea indicates there may not be a jewish presence between the river. And i can see why israel takes issue with that, which is different to chanting the slogan free palestine which does not pre dispose any political configuration. But i think that Bella Hadid and many other palestinians have not really interrogated the scholarly nuances of that slogan in depth, and i think it has become kind of a Rallying Cry for palestinians on Social Media in demonstrations and other public forums. I think it is not unusual that we saw her embracing that slogan like many other activists. Gabriel, can i ask you, what is the perception in israel of the responsibility of Tech Platforms . Are they seen as been doing enough or being complicit with a particular side . Let me first move from the personal specific stage or dimension to the more general one. Speaking about throwing people into the sea, i am living in israel and i live half a kilometre from the beach, so the idea of being thrown into the sea is not very appealing to me. Id argue that we should be more concerned about Hate Speech in general on Social Media. This Conflict Isjust one case, we should be looking at other cases on Social Media. Our study two years ago, the virus of hate, the way that Social Media is use to spread hate, we did find only one type of hate, it is not israel or palestinians, it is all kind of hate. And it can be white supremacists, neo nazis, anti blacks, anti muslims, anti gay, so on. It should not isolate to one case. It should be a global war. It should be directed against those companies, it should be involving educational measures, defensive measures, how to educate those tiktok users so that they wont be seduced or manipulated. Im not sure we are doing enough. I think it is important to flag that Bella Hadid did return to Social Media to say that in her view, what she was chanting in her posts have been pro palestinian as opposed to anti israeli. I wanted to pick up on that point about Tech Platforms how mindful do you think Tech Platforms are about their role . I mean, i was reading that Nick Clegg the Vice President of global affairs for facebook is actually having meetings with the israeli authorities and with palestinian authorities. That is extraordinary to me, that in the middle of all of this, you have these meetings taking place. Do you think they are really aware of the gravity and the role they play here . If they are not already they are becoming increasingly aware by the minute. As we have discussed over the last ten minutes or so, this is an incredibly complicated issue, it has long been an incredible complicated issue. And we have tens if not hundreds of millions of users who are interacting and commenting on this day in, day out. These platforms have become our public forums for discussions. So Nick Clegg and joel caplan, two of facebook� s higher ups and also some tiktok executives met with the israeli Defence Minister last thursday. I think that facebook have gone on record saying that they had on record saying that they have a meeting with the palestinian counterparts next week. And this is all i think designed to try and maybe find their way through some of his nuance. We have had a discussion about the particular song there and the way that it is used, you have to remember that these platforms are moderating their content in a way that is often very blind to the context. So i think that is in part what they are trying to do here, to get a bit of understanding with both Sides Point of views in this conflict. Sarah, i would like to get your take on the broader issue here and the broader narrative and the direction of traffic, because there is a question here about where people are getting their news from. And arguably gaza and the situation right now is following a pattern that we saw with blm and we saw Post George floyd, we saw people taking to Social Media to express themselves but also to consume news and views and use these platforms as their primary source. And we have seen large numbers of young people doing that. Do you think that is problematic . I should say that there is a distinct linkage between blm and the palestinian cause, which actually goes back to the 1960s, tying causes of black and brown activism worldwide with a third world ism movement. This is nothing new. I think we are seeing an escalation in Social Media with new technology that facilitates this kind of linkages which did not exist 50 years ago. I dont think there is anything wrong with it, but i do think that there is a danger that the use of Social Media is actually escalating the conflict in the ground. As gabriel mentioned earlier, there are now two battlefields Social Media virtual battlefield and the actual conflict happening on the ground. 0n Social Media, you can be sitting behind a Screen Thousands and thousands of miles away writing posts that are intended to escalate rather than to quiet the situation. But you yourself are not going to incur the suffering that will result from people who are living in the region. I think that is the real danger of what is happening today. Thank you. May i refer to the question . I feel very comfortable as a Communications Scholar to speak about Media Effects in general. We have to distinguish between Cognitive Effects and behavioural effects. We are always looking for Empirical Evidence, i think in the case of tiktok, in the last few weeks, you have had much Empirical Evidence of those types of cognitive and behavioural. You wont give me enough time to lecture about it, but let me give you one example of this. A week before the conflict started, many tiktok videos showing arabs attacking religious people, jews in israel. People tried to imitate it. So if you need any evidence on the powerful effect, there you are. I that. Thank you. You are the editor of this weekjunior. For this Tiktok Generation that we are talking about, why do they want a Hands On Magazine that you actually flick through . You dont swipe what is the appeal here . I think it Isjust Genuinelyjust A Passion for printed matter. I mean, we at the very heart of our mission have a real passion for reading and encouraging children to read for pleasure. What we have seen over the past five years since we launched is that there is still an appetite for it. And i think it is a very different way to consume information. And to go back to what your other guests have been speaking about, i think what we are able to do is to apply that calm and non judgemental approach to reporting on the news, we have to be so careful in terms of reporting stories such as these to our readers to not inflate anxieties. We really do have to stick to the facts as we know them and allow our readers to make up their own minds about what is going on by providing them with the context and the background to these stories, to help them to understand both sides but without taking a side ourselves. Anna, practically, how would you be covering the israel and the palestinian story . How would you be covering that right now . We have done it this week, it is our main News Story this week, the team have just in fact sent that issue to press. I know that they were wrestling with it right until the very last minute, we took an enormous amount of care over every word, every phrase, every picture that we used. Our approach is very simple it is extremely calm, we stick to the fact that we know, we try to provide balance. And i think for our readers, because they are as young as seven or eight years old, the first thing for us to do is to provide them with the context. So explain the history of the region, explain the political and religious significance of that area. So that they gain an understanding of why these tensions are so high. What we will not be doing is providing them with anything that is particularly inflammatory, we are always very careful to distinguish what we know is a fact and what is an opinion or a response to the fact. And that isjust so important, we must not tell them what to think and we just have to help learn how to think. Sarah, do you think there is a degree of parental anxiety over what is available on Social Media and what young people are exposed to that is driving traffic to you . Do you think that is why you have these great Sales Figures at the moment . I think to some degree, yes. We know that we have a huge amount of trust in the brand. Parents are very comfortable allowing us to explain world events to their children. Lets face it, the world is full of information now, and it moves very quickly. And many children are really too young to learn, to to young to learn, to distinguish between something that has been taken out of context and what is a fact that they need to understand. So i think there is a degree of it, i think children, parents love to see their children reading, there there is nothing nicer as a parent than seeing your child happily absorbed in a magazine or book. I think we have found a niche for ourselves, nothing at a time when many people would like to believe that children are only interested in learning through Social Media or on screens, we have shown that there is still space for quiet time. And they can just explore the world at their leisure. Chris, do you think a Print Magazine the kids doing well right now is this a kind of Pandemic Blip . Or is it a broader trend . I think it is a broader trend. And actually there are examples of online personalities into the print world. Ryan, a nine year old and one of the biggest youtubers on the planet, he set up his own magazine which is hugely popular because he wants to try to get this off line connection. It is interesting to see what the weekjunior we are doing there. We have run out of time. Thank you so much and thank you to all of my guests today. Thank you all. I will be back at the same time next week. Thank you for listening and you can hear more via bbc sounds, i appreciate your time and take care. Quite an optimistic picture behind me with a bit of blue sky, but dont hold your breath. The Morning Sunshine Isnt going to last, we are expecting Rain And Wind through the morning and into the afternoon across many parts of the uk. The Jet Stream is currently pushing another low pressure and a set of Weather Fronts in our direction and that means the weather will quickly go downhill through the morning. Now the temperatures first thing will be pretty nippy in scotland, A Touch Of Frost in the glens but out towards the west, the South Westerly Winds will start to make it a little milder. So as we go through the morning, the weatherfront sweeps in, a spell of heavy Rain And Gale force winds towards the west of the country. Notice that eastern areas, even by late afternoon are still dry. In fact, this Weather Front Wont reach norwich, Hull And Newcastle until the evening hours. And then towards the west of the country come the evening, the weather should improve but there still will be some blustery showers around. So a pretty unsettled picture again. This is Bbc News, im lewis vaughanjones. 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