Visitors, so it is already three times what a physical year would be. But isnt that actually telling you that the whole Function And Purpose and meaning of museums is changing . And the pandemic has perhaps hastened that change . The physical space maybe in future matters very much less and what you do virtually so much more important. I think it is about doing both. I think, as we sit here, as you know and i know, there is nothing that can replace the magic of sitting in this space, seeing the real object, the things that darwin brought back on the Beagle Or Something like that its just magical, so i do not think we will ever replace if you like that extraordinary experience of standing in front of a real object and seeing it, touching things, but if you like, if we have had a challenge, over the last 20 odd years we have welcomed 100 Million people through the doors here but we have no real way of talking to them between times, whereas actually if you can communicate through digital channels, between the occasions when someone can physically visit, we can stay in touch, we can keep you in touch with programming, with Behind The Scenes with the content and if you get this right, i think you can create a hugely richer experience in which we can engage with our visitors digitally and physically. And then when they come back physically, it will be an even richer experience. You are arguably the most, or certainly one of the most famous natural History Museums in the World, do you think this pandemic and all of the discussion it has prompted about the balance between the Human Presence on earth and the natural World and whether that balance is out of kilter, is that something you now need to reflect on at the museum . Absolutely. And if you think about us as a museum, our Subject Matter is Planet Earth and the life here on Planet Earth, but the challenge, and there is a problem and i think the pandemic has brought this directly to us, is that that life is under threat. We can look back through the fossil record, we know that life has been on earth for about three and a half billion years, three and a half thousand million years, but over that time there have been five mass extinction events, that is moments where almost all the Life On Earth has disappeared and all the data is telling us we are heading for a sixth, but this one is different, because all the data is telling us that this sixth Potential Mass Extinction event, the first Mass Exctinction Event since we lost the dinosaurs over 60 Million years ago, this one is caused by the actions of a single species and that is us, humanity. Some of it is climate change, some of it is actually land use, nearly a third of the Worlds-land-surface'>Worlds Land Surface is pollution, so that is the challenge. And that, by the way, is what the museum is out to try and fix. In that answer, you sound a bit like a missionary, like you now see it as your mission in this museum to be an advocate for a very different approach to Mans Management of the planet. Iis approach to Mans Management of the lanet. ,. , , approach to Mans Management of the lanet. ,. ,. ,. , planet. Is that what you have become . Planet. Is that what you have become . Absolutely, planet. Is that what you have become . Absolutely, we planet. Is that what you have become . Absolutely, we do. I planet. Is that what you have become . Absolutely, we do. The museum declared a planetary emergency because Life On Earth, and Thatis Emergency because Life On Earth, and that is our Subject Matter, is under threat, but we can fix it. Is that is our Subject Matter, is under threat, but we can fix it. Threat, but we can fix it. Is that what museums threat, but we can fix it. Is that what museums are threat, but we can fix it. Is that what museums are for . Threat, but we can fix it. Is that what museums are for . To threat, but we can fix it. Is that what museums are for . To tell| threat, but we can fix it. Is that. What museums are for . To tell the public they have to respond to a planetary emergency . Isnt that deeply political as well as based on science . I deeply political as well as based on science . ~ ,. , ~ deeply political as well as based on science . ~ ,. , ~. , science . I think if you think about what we have science . I think if you think about what we have here, science . I think if you think about what we have here, we science . I think if you think about what we have here, we have science . I think if you think about| what we have here, we have three extraordinary assets, the science, not necessarily that well known, but we have over 300 scientists here working on biodiversity and the solutions to the challenge. We also have trust an extraordinary trust from our audiences who do trust us to tell the facts, be impartial, presented as it is, and we also have reach physically and digitally. If you have those you have the opportunity to do something about it and im glad you used the Word Advocate because that is what we use, we wanted to try and create advocates for the planet which means inspiring millions and Tens Of Millions and hundreds of millions first to care about the natural World and secondly to be inspired to want to do something about it and thatis want to do something about it and that is both individuals and the choices we make about the food we eat, the products we buy, the way we travel, but also inspiring individuals to care enough about this planet to do something about it. That is what we wanted to do. This is very interesting, because is there a shift with in the balance of displays they do . For example, behind your shoulder, one of the most magnificent Dinosaur Skeletons ever found most magnificent dinosaur Skeletons Everfound in most magnificent Dinosaur Skeletons ever found in the most magnificent dinosaur Skeletons Everfound in the uk, but i do notice that perhaps the emphasis these days is less on the fossils and dinosaurs, it is more on it for example be threats posed to species right now, right across the World. Above our heads as this magnificent Blue Whale which actually replaced what only people around the World will remember is the most magnificent skeleton, dippy. Dippy has gone, the Blue Whale has come, is that a sign you care more about the present and the future than the Deep Past . We the present and the future than the Dee Ast . ~ u, the present and the future than the Dee Ast . ~. , the present and the future than the Dee Ast . ~ u,. ,. ,. , Deep Past . We care about Life On Earth, that Deep Past . We care about Life On Earth, that is Deep Past . We care about Life On Earth, that is our Deep Past . We care about Life On Earth, that is our subject Deep Past . We care about Life On Earth, that is our subject and Deep Past . We care about life on i earth, that is our subject and hope, hope the Blue Whale above us, we chose hope because it is a symbol of the future. We are opening with an exhibition that we are calling and work broken a planet, how we got here and crucially ways to fix it. We do see the impact of humanity on the natural World is massive, but crucially, if we wanted to inspire action, it has to be done from a message of hope and there is still time on the good news, and it is good news, is actually there is a sustainable path. It is narrow, but there is a sustainable path when which we cancel have development but to do it in a way we do not over consume the Worlds resources. I have to ask, even what you have just said, how credible your message is as It Director of this museum when everyone around the World, will also be aware that your most recent past was a corporate executive in one of the Worlds most successful companies, amazon, and the record on sustainability and respecting the planet is to many peoples i is extremely poor. How credible advocate, as you say, are you . I cannot speak directly for amazon because i do not work there any more. � y. , because i do not work there any more. � ,. , ~ because i do not work there any more. � ,. ,. , ~ amazon more. But you did work the. Amazon is a tood more. But you did work the. Amazon is a good example more. But you did work the. Amazon is a good example of more. But you did work the. Amazon is a good example of the more. But you did work the. Amazon is a good example of the way more. But you did work the. Amazon is a good example of the way we more. But you did work the. Amazon is a good example of the way we want| is a good example of the way we want to engage with corporate, because we know we cannot deliver unless we work with people and companies and governments. Amazon is a good example because you are quite right, it is a retailer, but if you look two years ago, amazon set up the climate pledge. 0nly last week i was delighted to see amazon joined the Leaf Coalition to commit notjust being necessary with carbon but also helping with deforestation. It is an example of how you can engage with a corporate, explained with the facts, evidence, how we can do what we do, continue to serve customers, but do so in a much more sustainable way. But doug, what you are a senior executive in the company, the company was one of the most notoriously reluctant to talk about their emissions on a year by year basis. It has been worked out that in 2018 for example, amazon was responsible for 44 Million metric tonnes of c02. It also has been plagued by lawsuits from workers who complain about working conditions, low wages, a Work Style which they say is anti humane. You have just come from the, so have you had some sort of Damascene Conversion . What has happened to you . That sort of Damascene Conversion . What has happened to you . Has happened to you . That was not makes variance. Has happened to you . That was not makes variance. Spent has happened to you . That was not makes variance. Spent a has happened to you . That was not makes variance. Spent a number. Has happened to you . That was not makes variance. Spent a Number Ofj makes variance. Spent a number of years and amazon, worked very closely with colleagues in the centres, drivers, that was not what i had but you do not have to take my word that. That was not my experience was not what i was that we opened up the operation public tours, i believe they continue or wear when the pandemic ends. And i think as ever people should make up their own Mind. Think as ever people should make up their own Mind. When it comes to the future of this their own Mind. When it comes to the future of this place, their own Mind. When it comes to the future of this place, what their own Mind. When it comes to the future of this place, what is their own Mind. When it comes to the future of this place, what is your future of this place, what is your ambition for what people will walk away thinking and feeling . Will it be less of the marvel and more political . It be less of the marvel and more olitical . , political . It will not be political. Our vision political . It will not be political. Our vision here political . It will not be political. Our vision here is political . It will not be political. Our vision here is to political . It will not be political. Our vision here is to create our vision here is to create advocates and an advocate is somebody, and that means as i say, by the way it is many advocates, millions, Tens Of Millions, which we can do, we have the beach, bits and when he was inspired to love and care about the actual World but crucially, inspired to make changes in their own lives. We have the reach. And put pressure on companies to encourage them to change and if we all get together, we can do things we need to do to fix the planet. Things we need to do to fix the lanet. , things we need to do to fix the. Lanet. ,. ,. Things we need to do to fix the lanet. ,. ,. , planet. Very idealistic, but you need money planet. Very idealistic, but you need money and planet. Very idealistic, but you need money and you planet. Very idealistic, but you need money and you are planet. Very idealistic, but you need money and you are in planet. Very idealistic, but you need money and you are in a i planet. Very idealistic, but you need money and you are in a covid cap pandemic, very limited revenues, very dependent on state support, but you also do rely on major contributions from big corporate donors who have links to Mining Companies, fossilfuel donors who have links to Mining Companies, Fossil Fuel companies, and you also have links in the past two, for example, the family who made theirfortune out two, for example, the family who made their fortune out of selling opioids, highly addictive drugs, in the united states and elsewhere. Are you going to change that policy of taking france from such sources . We alwa s taking france from such sources . Always look at the situations on a case by Case Basis. Taking funds. It comes down to two things, one as we do want to support to run the programmes we can and will always look at that, but we will be very thoughtful before we take money from anybody about how we feel about working with the organisation. Iiidta� e working with the organisation. Have mistakes being working with the organisation. Have mistakes being made . I working with the organisation. Have mistakes being made . Ithink working with the organisation. Have mistakes being made . I think the i mistakes being made . I think the auestion mistakes being made . I think the question we mistakes being made . I think the question we ask mistakes being made . I think the question we ask ourselves mistakes being made . I think the question we ask ourselves is mistakes being made . I think Thej Question we ask ourselves is what mistakes being made . I think the I Question we ask ourselves is what is the Direction Of Travel. If you ask for example about the mining industry, we know for example we have a scientist here who are helping Mining Companies to say it is fantastic that we have seen governments around the World, but that will drive up demand for batteries and for batteries you need cobalt, Rare Earth minerals but we have World experts here thinking about sustainability, is a part of the reason we gave as it is hopeful to get financial support for programmes, even more importantly if we can engage with a corporation, we can help them on thatjourney and actually being able to find what we need to decarbonise the economy but do it in the most sustainable possible way. That is the nature of the kind of interaction we want to have with corporate. The the kind of interaction we want to have with corporate. The question i raised was have have with corporate. The question i raised was have mistakes have with corporate. The question i raised was have mistakes been have with corporate. The question i i raised was have mistakes been made . You took a major contribution from the suckers to develop a major part of the museum. Six years on, was that a mistake . From the sacklers. That a mistake . From the sacklers that a mistake . From the sacklers. , sacklers. Sometime over time new information sacklers. Sometime over time new information emerges sacklers. Sometime over time new information emerges and sacklers. Sometime over time new information emerges and if sacklers. Sometime over time new information emerges and if you sacklers. Sometime over time new. Information emerges and if you have that information at the time he might do things differently. I think for every occasion we will look on a case by Case Basis and ask the same question, is it a good Direction Of Travel . , question, is it a good Direction Of Travel . , question, is it a good Direction Of Travel . ,. ,. , travel . She welcomed the debate that is raatin in travel . She welcomed the debate that is raging in the travel . She welcomed the debate that is raging in the united travel . She welcomed the debate that is raging in the united Kingdom Travel . She welcomed the debate that is raging in the united kingdom and i is raging in the united kingdom and many other countries now about the degree to which museums like this have to be much clearer about the context in which these extraordinary exhibits around us arrived here in london . Do you welcome it . Is london . Do you welcome it . Is usually welcome it, one thing that has been enormously positive, which may be supposing to say, it has been hugely positive that we have had this debate, because for me, museums are about the collections but also the Stories you tell around them and our ability to engage with more diverse audiences, the more we can open up these things, the more we can tell our Stories and by the way, one of the benefits of digital challenges as you can tell so many more Stories and start to tell Stories that engage with people all around the World. Actually, i think it is terrific having this debate. This argument hurts very different ways. I want to get to the whole discussion about colonialism in a second, but first, just the origins of so many of the exhibits here. They were brought here from right around the World and mostly they were brought during the colonial imperial period of uk history. Indeed, yes. Many countries have asked for some of these extraordinary things back and you have been very extraordinary things back and you have been very reluctant extraordinary things back and you have been very reluctant to extraordinary things back and you have been very reluctant to give i have been very reluctant to give them back, why . I have been very reluctant to give them back, why . Have been very reluctant to give them back, why . I think first of all that we are them back, why . I think first of all that we are a them back, why . I think first of all that we are a natural them back, why . I think first of all that we are a natural history them back, why . I think first of all i that we are a natural History Museum so most of our collections are fossils, botanicals, theyre not human article. Fossils, botanicals, theyre not human article. Whats different is that make . Human article. Whats different is that make . They human article. Whats different is that make . They still human article. Whats different is that make . They still belong that make . They still belong somewhere and were still taken, very usually, without any sort of Mission Authorisation by explorers and scientists who felt that rather arrogantly they had a right to take whatever they wanted. Arrogantly they had a right to take whatever they wanted. There are two sides to this, whatever they wanted. There are two sides to this, on whatever they wanted. There are two sides to this, on the whatever they wanted. There are two sides to this, on the one whatever they wanted. There are two sides to this, on the one hand whatever they wanted. There are two sides to this, on the one hand we sides to this, on the one hand we are extremely fortunate that scientists and collectors collected these objects because if they had not, we would have lost them. For example if you look in our collections, we have samples of wheat that are now extinct. We have samples we can go back and take dna from so it is important that these collections exists, but crucially, these are global collections that we have to make available to the World, is one of the most important thing is one of the most important thing is we are doing, and by the way, very often there is a focus on the objects on display, but it is a tiny fraction of the collection. Even in this vast museum, we have 27,000 objects on display. Have 80 Million in the collection. Them is everything on display, there are 3000 objects Behind The Scenes and thatis 3000 objects Behind The Scenes and that is a treasure trove. It is 3000 objects Behind The Scenes and that is a treasure trove. That is a treasure trove. It is also an acknowledgement that is a treasure trove. It is also an acknowledgement for that is a treasure trove. It is also an acknowledgement for saying i an acknowledgement for saying actually you could very easily give some magnificent pieces back to the places of origin and actually you would not lose very much. You obsolete leak would not lose very much. You obsolete leak can would not lose very much. You obsolete leak can and would not lose very much. Gm. Obsolete leak can and we absolute you do. Our goal is to make this collection available. You absolutely can. Collection available. You absolutely can. Collection available. You absolutely can. Yes, you have returned absolutely can. Yes, you have returned some absolutely can. Yes, you have returned some human absolutely can. Yes, you have i returned some human remains, absolutely can. Yes, you have returned some human remains, human tissue, i think to australia, hawaii, where indigenous people, there remains had ended up Here And Now they have been returned. I understand that. But in many other cases, i will give you one example, chile, it wanted from here, this extraordinary exhibit you have, in a particular creature, huge slots like creature, the remains discovered in cave in chile in the late 19th Century and did appear. The chileans that want it back. Of course it has been extinct for 10,000 years. Chilean people wanted to see this thing. Why should you haveit . To see this thing. Why should you have it . ,. , , to see this thing. Why should you have it . ,~ ,. , have it . They are complex issues and it is or is a have it . They are complex issues and it is or is a question have it . They are complex issues and it is or is a question of have it . They are complex issues and it is or is a question of whether it is or is a question of whether you keep it and how. The thing which i do and that we do this a lot as we work with museums around the World, universities around the World to make these collections are available which we can do digitally, through loans, through touring, we make sure this collection is available to everyone and every single case like that we look at it very carefully, we understand provenance, we were Cut Decisions and on that occasion we have not. Cut decisions and on that occasion we have not Cut Decisions and on that occasion we have not. ,. , , y we have not. Plain and simple, why . What was your we have not. Plain and simple, why . What was your rationale we have not. Plain and simple, why . What was your rationale for we have not. Plain and simple, why . What was your rationale for saying i what was your rationale for saying no, you cannot have it back, we are keeping it . Keeping it . First of all, the circumstances, keeping it . First of all, the circumstances, we keeping it . First of all, the circumstances, we are keeping it . First of all, the circumstances, we are not| keeping it . First of all, the circumstances, we are not simply able to return everything, we had to get a clear process, we have to understand provenance, we need to take into account this thing is. In most cases, we also need to be reassured about the collection storage. In most cases we found the right thing to do for national history collections is to make them available through loans, tours, collections and that we do all the time. So you will find our collections all over the World as we speak. Collections all over the World as we seak. , ,. , collections all over the World as we seak. ,. , speak. The deeper issue, and may be the more ideological speak. The deeper issue, and may be the more ideological issue speak. The deeper issue, and may be the more ideological issue is speak. The deeper issue, and may be the more ideological issue is the the more ideological issue is the degree to which, as i used the word before, you contextualise what is here and expect people that so many of the collectors and so many of the amazing Exploration Expeditions which brought stuff here were absolutely tied up to colonialism, imperialism and indeed to violence. And im not necessarily seeing that you are being open and upfront about that in this museum. I you are being open and upfront about that in this museum. That in this museum. I think it is a very legitimate that in this museum. I think it is a very legitimate challenge that in this museum. I think it is a very legitimate challenge and that in this museum. I think it is a very legitimate challenge and i i very legitimate challenge and i think it is one of those challenges that if you say have we done as much as we could, should and will be doing to tell more of the Stories i think the answer is perhaps not. I will give you a simple example. If you think about the Captain Cook expeditions on the endeavour, back of the late 18th century, extraordinary expeditions, the first time europeans, had been to australia and new zealand, we are fortunate to have the entire botanical artworks in our collection here, but a lot of those artworks were created by local artists and we have never really told that story before and that is the kind of thing we are going to be telling, but the one thing i would say is we are very, very clear that we want to be adding in our approach more Stories that engage with more audiences and more diverse audiences that we have around the World. {lister more diverse audiences that we have around the World. Around the World. Over that there is around the World. Over that there is a statue of charles around the World. Over that there is a statue of Charles Darwin, around the World. Over that there is a statue of Charles Darwin, one around the World. Over that there is a statue of Charles Darwin, one of. A statue of Charles Darwin, one of the inspirationalfigures behind it so much of what we see in this museum. The daily telegraph not so long ago got hold of an internal report from this museum where there was a very active discussion about how you should deal with Charles Darwin today. Some of your Staff Raid that it was clear darwin was involved in colonialist expeditions, that Science And Racism at work in 24 that Science And Racism at work in 2a stop at their Work Convert Racism issues and the collections needs to be de colonised. Do agree with all of that . That came from members of your staff and do you think Charles Darwin needs to be taken out of this museum . Taste darwin needs to be taken out of this museum . ~. ,. ,. , museum . We have been a very clear we will not cancel museum . We have been a very clear we will not cancel darwin, museum . We have been a very clear we will not cancel darwin, he museum . We have been a very clear we will not cancel darwin, he was museum . We have been a very clear we will not cancel darwin, he was a will not cancel darwin, he was a scientific hero. Without darwin there will be no real evolution story. He was a truly extraordinary image, but as you have rightly called out and as our own curators have rightly called out, there are many Stories around us that are real issues that we need to address and will be addressing, but point i want to make the approach will be additive, so that is why we have not cancelled nominal taken him out, but we were contextualise and bring to life his Stories. The we were contextualise and bring to life his Stories. Life his Stories. The government is takin a life his Stories. The government is taking a View Life his Stories. The government is taking a view on life his Stories. The government is taking a view on much life his Stories. The government is taking a view on much of life his Stories. The government is taking a view on much of this life his Stories. The government is taking a view on much of this and | taking a view on much of this and there is a lot of talk about culture was in one of the battlegrounds it seems is now museums and there is talk of pressure being put on Museum Directors because the government does not want to see too much focus now, it seems, according to the culture secretary, not too much focus put on the need to acknowledge cannoli and go too deep into its response to movements like black lives matter. You are a direct travel in most important museums in the uk, whether you sit on this . First im generally thrilled that museums are at the forefront. You want to be museums are at the forefront. You want to be a museums are at the forefront. You want to be a battleground . No, i museums are at the forefront. You | want to be a battleground . No, we think those want to be a battleground . No, we think those are want to be a battleground . No, we think those are important think those are important discussions have and we think it is important museums in a sense are reflective of just important museums in a sense are reflective ofjust how important museums are in these collections, that you can naturally use them to tell the story is a museum throughout their history have been places where these kind of debates can take place. I think the important thing is that museums find a way to engage and inspire the works for the audience and actually a good example of this is and it is back to this point about physical space, this wonderful museum is fabulous, but it is in central london. That is not always easy for everybody, even in the uk, to get to, and is particularly it is not easy for people from more disadvantaged communities, so it is one of the most important things that we will be doing is to take this museum out. We have an incredible project or the other Nature Project which will be able to connect with people across the uk, particularly reaching advantaged communities engage them with Nature And Science and that in communities. Urban Nature Project. That is a great example of. It is not a debate about culture wars, it is getting people inspired by nature and that is one thing we think the pandemic has taught us that we need to get people inspired and do it well and that is where i see our direction. Aha, well and that is where i see our direction. �. , well and that is where i see our direction direction. A final thought, and Mindful it direction. A final thought, and Mindful it is direction. A final thought, and Mindful it is 140 direction. A final thought, and Mindful it is 140 years direction. A final thought, and Mindful it is 140 years since i direction. A final thought, and l Mindful it is 140 years since the first visitors came to this wonderful place. Do you think it will look very different, never Mind 140 years, but in 20 or 30 years from now . Art museum is going to be fundamentally different . Art museums . I fundamentally different . Art museums . Fundamentally different . Art museums . ~ ,. , museums . I think there will be at the core exactly museums . I think there will be at the core exactly what museums . I think there will be at the core exactly what they museums . I think there will be at the core exactly what they have i the core exactly what they have always been, which is extraordinary places from people around the World that engage in some of the most important issues facing society, but i think they will be able to do it in a much more expansive way, because it will take away the constraints of saying you have to come to us here, we will come to you. Come to us here, we will come to ou. ,. , ,. , you. Dog gurr, it has been a pleasure you. Dog gurr, it has been a pleasure talking you. Dog gurr, it has been a pleasure talking to you. Dog gurr, it has been a pleasure talking to you you. Dog gurr, it has been a pleasure talking to you in i you. Dog gurr, it has been a L Pleasure talking to you in this wonderful space, thank you very much. Good afternoon. Well, it is one of those weekends where youve got sunglasses on one minute and you are umbrella ing up for the next minute, and we are going to continue with that theme for the rest of the weekend. So some heavy downpours around, some sunshine in between the showers and things are staying pretty cool for the middle of may. So the most frequent heavy showers for the rest of today will be for south west england, the midlands and wales also seeing some hail and storms next. Then, as those Showers Head gradually northwards, easing for most of us overnight, largely clear skies for scotland, 4 or 5 degrees here, the rest of the uk 7 9. But heavy downpours already towards the South West First Thing Tomorrow Morning and this area of low pressure will be dominating our weather tomorrow, bringing us more torrential showers, initially heaviest in the south west, but they will pop up elsewhere through the course of the day. By the afternoon you could catch a shower or even a thunderstorm almost anywhere across england, wales and northern ireland. A bit drier in scotland, but temperatures only 11 16. Good afternoon. Theres been further escalation in the conflict in the middle east