Very wide spreading. At the moment there is a very wide range of scientific opinion very wide range of scientific opinion about what could happen. World leaders appeal for calm after continued clashes between israelis and palestinians; more than 70 people have been killed in recent days. Former Prime Minister David Cameron faces questions from mps about lobbying he conducted on behalf of the collapsed finance firm, Greensill Capital. The largest Tunnelling Machine used in a Uk Rail Project starts work under the Chiltern Hills on the h52 high speed link. Good afternoon and welcome to bbc news. New figures have laid bare the effect of the coronavirus pandemic on the nhs in england. The number of people waiting for routine Hospital Treatment has hit nearly 5 million 7 the highest since records began. As the nhs concentrated on tackling covid, the numbers waiting for treatment for other illnesses soared. Before coronavirus, 1,600 people had been waiting more than a year, that figure now stands at 436,000 people. Lets cross to my colleague, victoria derbyshire, at St Thomas Hospital in london. Yes, we were talking to one of the bosses here a little earlier and he said the scale of this is massive. Its a huge challenge for staff and these staff have already been through 12 months of stress and exhaustion treating Covid Patients. In terms of the routine procedures nearly 5 Million People are waiting for, it is things like hernia operations, cataracts, knee surgery, heart bypass surgery, lung surgery. Things that really affect peoples lives. We are going to talk to staff injust a moment but lives. We are going to talk to staff in just a moment but first Health Correspondent Anna Collinson has been speaking to some of the people affected. They said its not good news and they said i had cancer. Two months ago, doctors told elaine walsh she had womb cancer. What they did say is you would normally be on a table in the next few weeks but we havent got one. We havent got a surgeon, we havent got a table and obviously i was aware every day that im not on a surgical operating table, it is more risk. In the past year the nhs has treated hundreds of thousands of Covid Patients and rolled out a mass vaccination programme. Your tummy is hurting . This has come at a cost disrupting Nonurgent Care for many patients like zen. New figures from nhs england shows 436,000 people were waiting over a year for Hospital Treatment in march, up from just 1600 before the pandemic took hold. While there is more positive news in cancer care with a Record Number of referrals made by Gps Taking Place in march the backlog is a serious concern. The biggest problem is on current trajectories they are saying it could take them between three and five years to recover this backlog. Everyone knows that is simply not good enough. Nhs england has announced a £160 Million Initiative which will consider innovative ways to tackle Waiting Lists. We have a great, Great National in student that has proved itself capable of rising to the most phenomenal challenges, it was never overwhelmed by covid, hasnt been so far, i know it can cope with the backlog and we will invest, we are already investing massively. But could Something Like this Help Cut Waiting Times . Here is a mobile surgical theatre. Passionate about helping the nhs, these two doctors have created and raised the funds for a Surgical Unit to be set up in car parks and ready to use within two hours of arrival. You need to use your imagination. Where we are standing is the entrance. It has a reception and a surgical theatre. What kind of patients will you treat here . It is the low risk surgery that frees up the main theatres in hospitals for the bigger operations, anaesthetics, hips and knees. Patients would exit out the back, it is hoped this one way system will simplify the flow of people. We can see there is a scope to improve Patient Numbers not necessarily reliant on the bricks and mortar is of large hospitals but more delivery in the community which is both easierfor patients, more Cost Effective and achievable. Some Health Officials say calling upon the private sector is another way to increase capacity which has happened with elaine who is due to be treated at a private hospital tomorrow. Sociable and outgoing, elaine longs for her old life. The prolonged wait for treatment has been made even more painful because she has had to isolate on her own. Nobody realises the stress of going through this in covid in the pandemic, and what it means to be isolated, and going through what you would normally have a huge support network. I mean i do have a network, but they cannot be with me, no one can be with me. I can do it myself, i know i can, i am just lucky. But it is hard. It is hard for so many people. Lets dig down into the picture right across england. 0ur correspondent nick triggle has this assessment. Covid has had a huge impact on the nhs. More than 400,000 patients have been treated in hospitalfor the virus during the pandemic. The average length of stay has been nine days thats twice as long as patients admitted for other conditions would normally stay. Thankfully cases have now dropped to a really low level but the scale of the disruption caused to hospitals is becoming clear. A report from the Institute For Fiscal Studies shows the number of non covid Emergency Admissions dropped by a fifth last year. 0utpatient Appointments including support such as physiotherapy fell by a fifth too. The number of people admitted for planned care like knee and Hip Operations dropped by even more. They are down a third on 2019. This fall in activity has had an impact on waits. The number of people on a waiting list in england is at its highest level since records began in 2007. One in 11 people are now waiting for treatment. The numbers are even higher in wales and Northern Ireland per head and this has happened despite a drop in people coming forward for care in the first place. The numbers referred on to a waiting list dropped by six million in 2020. Ifjust a fraction of these seek help now it would increase the waiting list significantly. Then theres cancer care. These services have been prioritised throughout the pandemic but waiting times have still worsened. Some trusts are struggling to see even half of their patients in the target time of two months. This has happened despite fewer being treated. The numbers are down 45,000 across the uk as referrals in from gps and via Screening Have dropped, although the numbers are now starting to rise again. Experts are concerned this will mean more cancers will be spotted at a later stage, reducing the chances of survival. Its clear addressing these problems will take a monumental effort. Here at St Thomas Hospital let me introduce you to a Community Nurse here, and jenny turnbull, a physiotherapist. Thank you for talking to us. Maria, what have you got to do to catch up on the Waiting Lists . , . , lists . Over the last 14 months in community lists . Over the last 14 months in Community Services lists . Over the last 14 months in Community Services we lists . Over the last 14 months in Community Services we have lists . Over the last 14 months in l Community Services we have really worked hard to keep people out of hospital. Worked hard to keep people out of hosital. , worked hard to keep people out of hosital. ,. , ,. , hospital. That was before the pandemic hospital. That was before the pandemic. But hospital. That was before the pandemic. But it hospital. That was before the pandemic. But it ramped hospital. That was before the pandemic. But it ramped up. Hospital. That was before the pandemic. But it ramped up even more with new ways pandemic. But it ramped up even more with new ways of pandemic. But it ramped up even more with new ways of working pandemic. But it ramped up even more with new ways of working so pandemic. But it ramped up even more with new ways of working so that with new ways of working so that people can be looked after at home and also to be able to take People Better in the Hospital Home quickly and to look after them to continue their care in the home design that allows freeing up bed space in the hospitals and that Knock On Effect as we then can resume our normal outpatient services. find as we then can resume our normal outpatient services. As we then can resume our normal outpatient services. And what about ourself, outpatient services. And what about yourself. Jenny . Outpatient services. And what about yourself, jenny . Very outpatient services. And what about yourself, jenny . Very similar outpatient services. And what about yourself, jenny . Very similar to yourself, jenny . Very similar to maria, a yourself, jenny . Very similar to maria. A lot yourself, jenny . Very similar to maria, a lot of yourself, jenny . Very similar to maria, a lot of work yourself, jenny . Very similar to maria, a lot of work done yourself, jenny . Very similar to maria, a lot of work done by yourself, jenny . Very similar to | maria, a lot of work done by the team maria, a lot of work done by the team over maria, a lot of work done by the team over the last year in terms of setting team over the last year in terms of setting up team over the last year in terms of setting up Virtual Clinics, so we can see setting up Virtual Clinics, so we can see people over the internet and by phone can see people over the internet and b hone. , �. , can see people over the internet and b hone. , � by phone. You cant do physiotherapy in a Virtual Clinic . By phone. You cant do physiotherapy in a Virtual Clinic . There by phone. You cant do physiotherapy in a Virtual Clinic . There are in a Virtual Clinic . There are activities in a Virtual Clinic . There are activities you in a Virtual Clinic . There are activities you can in a Virtual Clinic . There are activities you can do in a Virtual Clinic . There are activities you can do and in a Virtual Clinic . There are i activities you can do and there in a Virtual Clinic . There are activities you can do and there are exercise activities you can do and there are Exercise Programmes and a lot of what Exercise Programmes and a lot of what we Exercise Programmes and a lot of what we do is about self help and directing what we do is about self help and directing patients as to what they can do directing patients as to what they can do to directing patients as to what they can do to help themselves. And then we have can do to help themselves. And then we have been setting up new services so we we have been setting up new services so we have we have been setting up new services so we have used what we have learned over the so we have used what we have learned over the test so we have used what we have learned over the last 12 months, what works and hasnt over the last 12 months, what works and hasnt worked to evolve our services and hasnt worked to evolve our services to and hasnt worked to evolve our services to a new level and the team i am services to a new level and the team tern working services to a new level and the team i am working with is the post covid Multidisciplinary Team clinic that we have Multidisciplinary Team clinic that we have set up here. In Multidisciplinary Team clinic that we have set up here. Multidisciplinary team clinic that we have set up here. In terms of the eole we have set up here. In terms of the peeple that we have set up here. In terms of the peeple that you we have set up here. In terms of the people that you are we have set up here. In terms of the people that you are trying we have set up here. In terms of the people that you are trying to we have set up here. In terms of the people that you are trying to care. People that you are trying to care for in their homes, do you see more of them at home and seeing sicker people at home but they are not left isolated. ,. ,. ,. , isolated. Tells about how your nurses will isolated. Tells about how your nurses will go isolated. Tells about how your nurses will go out isolated. Tells about how your nurses will go out to isolated. Tells about how your nurses will go out to look isolated. Tells about how your| nurses will go out to look after them . We have got a plethora of teams, doctors, nurses, pharmacists, Health Care Professionals, so we have the whole team within our scope and that means patients can be visited either once, twice, three times a day depending on what is wrong with them and buy whatever profession is needed, so it is a really good way of keeping people in their home but bringing in the hospital to peoples homes. And a lot of people would prefer to be cared for at home than coming at the hospital. find cared for at home than coming at the hosital. � ,. ,. ,. , hospital. And while they are out of hos ital it hospital. And while they are out of hospital it means hospital. And while they are out of hospital it means you hospital. And while they are out of hospital it means you can hospital. And while they are out of hospital it means you can bring hospital. And while they are out of| hospital it means you can bring the Waiting Lists down to get the other people who need the routine ops like knee and hip replacements. Knee and hip replacements. Keeping the hosital knee and hip replacements. Keeping the hospital three knee and hip replacements. Keeping the hospital three allows knee and hip replacements. Keeping the hospital three allows them knee and hip replacements. Keeping the hospital three allows them to i the hospital three allows them to normal Services Like they would have run pre covid so the community does a greatjob of allowing that to happen. A great job of allowing that to ha en. ,. ,. , a great job of allowing that to hauen. ,. , happen. Tell us what it has been like the year happen. Tell us what it has been like the year for happen. Tell us what it has been like the year for you happen. Tell us what it has been like the year for you and happen. Tell us what it has been like the year for you and your. Like the year for you and your colleagues. Like the year for you and your colleagues like the year for you and your colleauues. , , ~ , colleagues. Probably like the rest ofthe colleagues. Probably like the rest of the nhs it colleagues. Probably like the rest of the nhs it has colleagues. Probably like the rest of the nhs it has been colleagues. Probably like the rest of the nhs it has been tough colleagues. Probably like the rest of the nhs it has been tough but| colleagues. Probably like the rest. Of the nhs it has been tough but the teamwork of the nhs it has been tough but the teamwork we have been part of has also carried teamwork we have been part of has also carried us through so we have had two also carried us through so we have had two surges where most of the therapy had two surges where most of the Therapy Teams have moved from their norrnai Therapy Teams have moved from their normal outpatient duties and to supporting the acute effort in the trust. Supporting the acute effort in the trust. And supporting the acute effort in the trust, and we have worked in different trust, and we have worked in different ways and different teams as part different ways and different teams as part of different ways and different teams as part of that big a team to deliver as part of that big a team to deliver the services that patients need, deliver the services that patients need, where they need them. Is this the future now need, where they need them. Is this the future now for need, where they need them. Is this the future now for working need, where they need them. Is this the future now for working for need, where they need them. Is this the future now for working for you i the future now for working for you from what you have learned in the last 12 months or do you want to go back to what you have learned before . I back to what you have learned before . ,. ,. ,. ,. , before . I want to take what we have done in the before . I want to take what we have done in the last before . I want to take what we have done in the last 12 before . I want to take what we have done in the last 12 months before . I want to take what we have done in the last 12 months and before . I want to take what we have done in the last 12 months and all i done in the last 12 months and all of the done in the last 12 months and all of the excellent practices we have developed over the last 12 months i would developed over the last 12 months i would like developed over the last 12 months i would like to see them coming to fruition would like to see them coming to fruition. We have done a lot of different fruition. We have done a lot of different ways of working, a lot of interdisciplinary working so working much interdisciplinary working so working much more interdisciplinary working so working much more closely with their appearance, with the admin support to delay appearance, with the admin support to delay Delivery Care where need it. A,. ,. , , to delay Delivery Care where need it. Maria, we have these figures out toda for it. Maria, we have these figures out today for the it. Maria, we have these figures out today for the nhs it. Maria, we have these figures out today for the nhs in it. Maria, we have these figures out today for the nhs in england, it. Maria, we have these figures out| today for the nhs in england, nearly 5 Million People on the waiting list which is just the 5 Million People on the waiting list which isjust the most 5 Million People on the waiting list which is just the most extraordinary number, 5 Million People and that is the highest since records began. Do you worry there are people that havent even yet on the waiting list who havent come forward because they are anxious about coming to a hospital like this because of covid . Are the missing patients . J hospital like this because of covid . Are the missing patients . Are the missing patients . I would like to thank are the missing patients . I would like to thank knott are the missing patients . I would like to thank knott and are the missing patients . I would like to thank knott and i are the missing patients . I would like to thank knott and i think like to thank knott and i think confidence is coming back for the public, we see a lot more people contacting gps who then come through as so actually i feel like the confidence is really Building Back up confidence is really Building Back up now for people to Access Health care. � up now for people to Access Health care. ,. , up now for people to Access Health care. � ,. , yes up now for people to Access Health care yes and i up now for people to Access Health care. Yes and no. Care. Are you exhausted . Yes and no. I think we care. Are you exhausted . Yes and no. I think we have care. Are you exhausted . Yes and no. I think we have been care. Are you exhausted . Yes and no. I think we have been really i think we have been really supported within their teams with great peer support and senior support. The trust are really good at well being so we have had relaxed rooms. We are slightly tired but i think morale is really high. Its probably been the most challenging yearfor probably been the most challenging year for us but also the most rewarding and it has allowed us to work closely with sick patients and their homes and to actually see them get better as a huge reward for us. Can i ask you, as deputy head of nursing, it says on your badge, although i know that four days ago we were promoted to the head of nursing. Congratulations on your promotion. What is your view of the 1 pay rise suggested by the government for people like yourself . I think it is disappointing and i think a lot of my colleagues would think a lot of my colleagues would think that. I hope there will be talks that that may change and reflect on the work we have done over the last 12 months but hopefully they will come to the right conclusion. Hopefully they will come to the right conclusion. What do you say . What do you right conclusion. What do you say . What do you think right conclusion. What do you say . What do you think of right conclusion. What do you say . What do you think of that right conclusion. What do you say . What do you think of that 1 right conclusion. What do you say . What do you think of that 1 pay i what do you think of that 1 pay rise . I think it is a really difficult question to answer. In rise . I think it is a really difficult question to answer. In the health care difficult question to answer. In the Health Care Profession difficult question to answer. In the Health Care Profession we difficult question to answer. In the Health Care Profession we dont. Difficult question to answer. In the i Health Care Profession we dont come here for Health Care Profession we dont come here for money, we come here to provide here for money, we come here to provide a here for money, we come here to provide a service for our patients, and i provide a service for our patients, and i think provide a service for our patients, and i think the country is in a really and i think the country is in a really difficult state so how the government chooses to spend that money government chooses to spend that money is government chooses to spend that money is a government chooses to spend that money is a really difficult question and i money is a really difficult question and i wouldnt like to answer that. I and i wouldnt like to answer that. I would and i wouldnt like to answer that. I would like and i wouldnt like to answer that. I would like a bit more money, for sure i would like a bit more money, for sure. But i would like a bit more money, for sure. But we i would like a bit more money, for sure, but we are here for our patients sure, but we are here for our patients sure, but we are here for our atients. ,. ,. Patients. Thank you very much, really appreciate patients. Thank you very much, really appreciate you patients. Thank you very much, really appreciate you coming i patients. Thank you very much, i really appreciate you coming bbc news today. No longer be ahead of nursing, in fact head of nursing. Really appreciate your time. I think we are going to speak now to the Shadow Health secretary, Jonathan Ashworth. ,. ,. , Shadow Health secretary, Jonathan Ashworth. , Shadow Health secretary, Jonathan Ashworth i Shadow Health secretary, Jonathan Ashworth. I can i ashworth. Good afternoon. I can hardly hear ashworth. Good afternoon. I can hardly hear you ashworth. Good afternoon. I can hardly hear you but ashworth. Good afternoon. I can hardly hear you but im ashworth. Good afternoon. I can hardly hear you but im going i ashworth. Good afternoon. I can hardly hear you but im going to| hardly hear you but im going to persist. First of all, your reaction to the fact that there are nearly 5 Million People now on Waiting Lists in the nhs in england . It is in the nhs in england . It is staggering in the nhs in england . It is staggering and in the nhs in england . It is staggering and it in the nhs in england . It 3 staggering and it means so many people waiting longer, anxious, probably in pain and worried, many of them at risk of more serious illness and possibly permanent disability or loss of livelihoods, and some of it is a reflection of the last 12 months but i think we also have to be honest that we went into the crisis with very high Waiting Lists and people waiting longer for Cancer Treatment, the targets being missed, young people missing out on Mental Health care because of ten years of underfunding, cutting beds, failing to invest in the staff and the health care sector, so our nhs was weekend are going into this crisis and it now needs the resources and investment into the staff to bring the Waiting Lists down and deliver the Waiting Lists down and deliver the care that people deserve. So in march, the care that people deserve. So in march. You the care that people deserve. So in march. You will the care that people deserve. So in march, you will know the care that people deserve. So in march, you will know that the care that people deserve. So in march, you will know that 7 the care that people deserve. So in march, you will know that 7 billion extra is being given to the nhs. That includes 1 extra is being given to the nhs. That includes1 billion extra is being given to the nhs. That includes 1 billion specifically to concentrate on the waiting list backlog. If you were in government how much extra would you be giving . If we were in government now we would be giving the nhs more money, doing a proper review of the finances. Doing a proper review of the finances doing a proper review of the finances. ,. , i] finances. How much would it be . I cant live finances. How much would it be . I cant give you finances. How much would it be . I cant give you that finances. How much would it be . I cant give you that particular cant give you that particular answer because we are not in government but what we would do as a proper independent assessment of the finances and take a decision. So for example the lancet think tank last week said the nhs should be getting an uplift every year which is not getting but we would also invest in staffing. We entered the crisis with 200,000 vacancies across the health and care sector. We have got to fix the Staffing Crisis facing health and care because in some ways, we have lost 15,000 beds, but there is no point going off and buying 15,000 new beds if you havent got the staff to look after the patients and those bed so we need staffing for the nhs as well. The those bed so we need staffing for the nhs as well. Those bed so we need staffing for the nhs as well. The lancet study talked about the nhs as well. The lancet study talked about an the nhs as well. The lancet study talked about an extra the nhs as well. The lancet study talked about an extra 100 the nhs as well. The lancet study talked about an extra 100 billion l talked about an extra 100 billion over ten years. Would you sign up to that if you were in government . The stud was that if you were in government . Tie study was talking that if you were in government . Tte study was talking about that if you were in government . Tt9 study was talking about a 4 that if you were in government . Tt9 study was talking about a 4 uplift so they have worked out what a 4 uplift theres over ten years and i have always argued, argued loads of times when i have done interviews with you and otherjournalists, that we should be looking at around about 4 uplift, that is usually what the nhs ought to get. Thus the weight these last ten years it has been getting much less than that which is why when the pandemic hit we were so badly exposed. In why when the pandemic hit we were so badly exoosed badly exposed. In terms of the 1 a rise badly exposed. In terms of the 1 pay rise being badly exposed. In terms of the 1 pay rise being offered badly exposed. In terms of the 1 pay rise being offered by badly exposed. In terms of the 1 pay rise being offered by the pay rise being offered by the Department Of Health to nurses, i just spoke to two of them here and i dont know if you heard them, one said the 1 is disappointing, i never said we dont come into nursing for the money but we would like some more money, it has been a really tough year. Labour hasnt said what pay rise they would have been offering the nurses had they been offering the nurses had they beenin been offering the nurses had they been in government. Do you want to correct that now . If been in government. Do you want to correct that now . Correct that now . If we had one in 2019 nurses correct that now . If we had one in 2019 nurses would correct that now . If we had one in 2019 nurses would be correct that now . If we had one in 2019 nurses would be getting correct that now . If we had one in 2019 nurses would be getting a i correct that now . If we had one in | 2019 nurses would be getting a 596 2019 nurses would be getting a 5 pay rise but we didnt win the 2019 general election. So what we are now saying to the government is with draw that 1 , sit down with the staff and negotiate a fair settlement. A 1 pay rise isnt even a pay rise. In real terms it is a pay cut if Inflation Hits what we think it will hit so take it off the table, sit down with the nurses and paramedics and health care assistants, Everybody Working in the nhs, or they are representative bodies, and hammer outan nhs, or they are representative bodies, and hammer out an agreement. It wouldnt be a pay cut right now because as you know inflation is below 1 at the moment. It is because as you know inflation is below 1 at the moment. It is the projection below 1 at the moment. It is the projection the below 1 at the moment. It is the projection. The projection below 1 at the moment. It is the projection. The projection might l below 1 at the moment. It is the l projection. The projection might not come through but that is the projection. Let come through but that is the projection come through but that is the roection. , , projection. Let me ask you about what is going projection. Let me ask you about what is going on projection. Let me ask you about what is going on in projection. Let me ask you about what is going on in places i projection. Let me ask you about what is going on in places like i what is going on in places like bolton and blackburn and darwen. There is an increase in cases of the variant from india in bolton and blackburn. Blackburn is offering vaccinations now to everyone over the age of 18. How worried are you about what is going on there . T am about what is going on there . I am worried because about what is going on there . I am worried because what about what is going on there . T n worried because what we know is that variance are often more transmissible ones when you see an outbreak any particular area, it quickly spills over into neighbouring areas, so we have to nip this in the bad. And i think there are two of these big things we have to do. Surge vaccination as is being called out in parts of blackburn and i think is the right way to go. Lets do that in bolton and some of the other places mentioned, but we have also got to fix Contact Tracing in the local teams need to be in charge of Contact Tracing, and thirdly, and this is the one i have been banging on about at the start. If you are low paid rn insecure work and you are ill, you will not isolate yourself if you are likely to lose money. We have to fix sector pay and Financial Support and we need a better system in place for that. But Eo Le Better System in place for that. But people will get £500 if they are having to self isolate. Is that not enough. Having to selfisolate. Is that not enou h. ~ , having to selfisolate. Is that not enou~h. ~ , , , having to selfisolate. Is that not enou~h. ~ , ,, having to selfisolate. Is that not enou~h. ~ ,~ enough. What happens is they are su osed enough. What happens is they are supposed to enough. What happens is they are supposed to apply enough. What happens is they are supposed to apply to enough. What happens is they are supposed to apply to the enough. What happens is they are supposed to apply to the local i supposed to apply to the local authority and the circumstances that make them eligible are particularly tightly drawn and this is often depending to local authority to discretion and local authorities are saying they have run out of money and have not been given enough money in their budgets for that so the system is not as satisfactory as it ought to be. The better way to do it would bejust ought to be. The better way to do it would be just to ought to be. The better way to do it would bejust to have ought to be. The better way to do it would be just to have a decent sick pay uplift. You do need local support as well because i must be some people cannot isolate, who will get their shopping and medicines . We need a system in place to make sure all these different needs are met. Thank you very much for talking to us. Labours Shadow Health secretary. We are going to move to the other site, guys, where we will talk about how the pandemic has affected Cancer Treatment and what theyre doing about Waiting Lists there. There will be a special programme on the news channel tonight at 8 30pm to analyse the legacy of coronavirus for the nhs and what the Health Service needs to do to reduce its backlog of patients. New data suggests the prevalence of coronavirus cases in england is at its lowest point since last august despite the relaxation of the lockdown. But borisjohnson says the government is worried about a variant of covid first identified in india, which is now spreading here. 0ur Health Correspondent, Catherine Burns has been telling us more. What we do know is there has been a series of high level meetings between Government Officials and scientists than this in the invariant has been one of the main topics of conversation, especially after a spike of cases in places like bolton and greater manchester. So with variance there are three things we have to ask ourselves, does it cause more serious disease . That doesnt seem to be the case with this one. The second theirs, cannot fight harder against vaccines . It is really early days and there might be some small impact but there are no certain signs and there are reasons to be optimistic. The third is, is it more infectious . How does it spread . We know it already spreads at least as quickly as the kent variant which has become the dominant one in the uk and it seems it could spread considerably faster. What most people want to know as well this effect opening up . Will be still be able to do the things we were told we would be able to do. On monday, The Next Stage of reopening, things should be going ahead. There is more of a . For after that, june 21, because at each stage the government has for test it sets for itself and one is, as there a variant that is causing worries and risks about raising the risk level . We dont know enough about that, but we know this government says that they want to be led on these decisions based on data, not on dates and right now the data is not there. Israeli Ground Troops are massing on the border with gaza after another night of violence. Palestinian militants have fired dozens more rockets into israel, while israeli air strikes have targeted senior commanders in gaza and brought down another tower block. There have also been further Street Clashes between Israeli Arabs and jews. Health Officials Say more than 80 palestinians have died since monday, and seven israelis have been killed. Paul adams reports from jerusalem. A conflict taking a dangerous new turn. 0n the mixed streets of israel, jews and arabs attacking each other, the countrys president calling it a senseless civil war. In bat yam, south of tel aviv, an arab driver was pulled from his car and badly beaten. Some of the images are too graphic to show. In the mixed city of lod, Gangs Ofjewish Youths roam the streets, scenes increasingly commonplace in recent weeks. There is a violence from the other side too. Jews set upon, a synagogue torched, communities living in fear. Translation they heard i that my accent was not arab, ran up to my car and they started throwing stones. I was lucky there were no cars behind so i reversed. I almost ran into people and cars. I didnt see anything. Israels uneasy social compact is coming apart at the seams, On Streets Werejews and arabs live side by side. The Prime Minister accused of Sowing Division in the past, now condemning both sides. Translation nothing can Ustify A Lynching of jews by arabs i and nothing canjUstify A Lynching of arabs byjews. We will not accept this. Nor are there any signs to an end to the violence between israel and hamas. The militant organisation continues to fire rockets deep into israel. They are indiscriminate, civilians invariably pay the price. Israels air strikes on gaza are more precise but they are relentless and in this densely packed place, the civilian death toll continues to rise. Translation we had people shouting in the streets telling us to lead our house. The Apartment Building next to us was about to be bombed. We decided to leave everything behind and just flee. We ran out into the street. This conflict is not raging on several fronts. Rarely in recent years has intercommunal violence erupted on the streets of israel at the same time as fighting between israel and the palestinians. Its an alarming development. After speaking to israels Prime Minister, joe biden sounded optimistic. My expectation and hope is that this will be. Closing down sooner than later, but israel has a right to defend itself when you have thousands of rockets flying into your territory. Its not clear what President Biden means. Israel is warning of a possible ground operation, with troops massing along gazas border. If it happens, the conflict will get much bloodier before it ends. A 21 year old man has appeared at Maidstone Crown court charged with the murder of the Police Community support 0fficer, julia james, last month. Callum wheeler, from aylesham in kent, was remanded in custody and will stand trial in november. High speed trains which were found to have cracks, causing disruption on some of britains busiest routes, are expected to re Enter Service shortly after inspectors said they are safe. Services on large parts of the network have been disrupted since saturday, after cracks were discovered on the chassis of several trains. The largest Tunnelling Machine ever used on a Uk Rail Project is officially starting work. Florence named after Florence Nightingale will spend the next three and a half years cutting through the chalk beneath the Chiltern Hills in buckinghamshire. The tunnel will form part of controversial high speed rail project hs2s first phase, which will link london with the west midlands. Now its time for a look at the weather with tomasz. Some super heavy downpours around today, with thunder and lightning, flooding in places, as well. It has been particularly wet in southern parts of wales, the south west of england, and generally southern areas today so far ive had the heaviest of the showers. Also some areas towards the north west as well but counties along the north sea coast a different story for Newcastle Down to norwich, sunshine here today. The low pressure that is bringing the at times wet weather across the south is here to stay through the night and into tomorrow, but overall for many of us it will be a dry night, it will turn murky and first thing tomorrow morning will be really grey and overcast across the majority of the uk. Sunshine eventually will develop but not until later in the morning, and then through the afternoon we are expecting further showers across some western and southern areas but many of us should have a decent enough day on friday. The former Prime Minister David Cameron is facing questions from mps this afternoon about his role as a lobbyist for Greensill Capital, the Finance Company collapsed in march and he tried to allow ministers to be macro the company to Urgency Funds he tried to allow the company to receive urgent funds for ministers. , , , ministers. And Business Interests in cuttinu ministers. And Business Interests in cutting edge ministers. And Business Interests in cutting edge areas ministers. And Business Interests in cutting edge areas of ministers. And Business Interests in cutting edge areas of technology i ministers. And Business Interests in | cutting edge areas of technology and i believe the Prime Minister should be able to do that and i thought carefully about the choices i made and took extensive advice. As part of that range of activity i would explain why i chose to work for Greensill Capital, the circumstances under which i contacted Government Ministers and others and my motivations for doing so, and i will also explain how i abided by the rules that were in place. Rules alone are never enough and we learned that in this place over many issues, and personal conduct and codes of behaviour and how such conduct and behaviour both appears and can be perceived, these things matter. I completely accept that former Prime Ministers are in a different position to others because of the office that we held on the influence that continues to bring. We need to think differently and act differently. Lobbying itself is a necessary and healthy part of our democratic process, but i accept there is a strong argument that having a former Prime Minister engage on behalf of any commercial interest, no matter how laudable the motives and because, can be open to misinterpretation. Perhaps that is especially so when the Communication System we all use especially in the heat responding to a crisis art text, phone and app rather than a more formal approach like writing are. I hope it is accepted nothing i did was in breach of the rules but on the wider test of what is appropriate, as i have said previously, it would be better to use only the most formal means of contact via a letter. I started working as a Senior Adviser to Greensill Capital in august 2018 and Lex Greensill wanted me to hope him grow what was becoming a successful uk based fintech firm. There was geopolitical advice, helping with International Expansion, speaking at customer and supply events, and helping to win new customers, i like the fact that the business was using technology and deep Capital Markets to help Small Businesses and Supply Chains to get low cost credit, to get paid early. I had seen how this had worked in government when Lex Greensill was brought in to advise my administration in 2011, though at the time as i have said, i only met him very briefly. This was part of the Civil Service drive to improve government efficiency, and in bringing Him Injeremy Heywood was acting in good faith to solve a real problem, and to make sure companies and Supply Chains especially smes could access low cost credit. In terms of my role, i was not employed at greensill as a lobbyist and lobbying the uk government was never intended to be part of my role. But intended to be part of my role. But in the economic turmoil caused by covid the government quite rightly introduced several schemes to help make sure that credit would continue to be expanded to business. The Greensill Proposal was to make this even more effective, and i believe that it should be considered by government. This was particularly the case is what was being suggested was very similar to action that had been taken during the financial crisis in 2008 in which businesses like greensill have been involved. My like greensill have been involved. My motivation for contacting ministers and others was to help uk firms at this moment of difficulty and to make sure that Fintech Firms, greensill in particular, were listened to it as well as the major Clearing Banks, and my reason for contacting the chancellor and others so directly was because the solutions were being considered, introduced and amended in rapid time and i believe greensill could help the country at this time of acute health and financial crisis. I knew that any beatings between greensill and officials that were being asked for would quite rightly be publicly reported any meetings. Not least because of the rules of transparency i helped to put in place as Prime Minister, and greensill was not asking for direct Government Support or some sort of bailout, and at this stage april last year i certainly had no sense at all of the business itself was in any danger of collapse. Separately in 2019, greensill decided to extend the idea of paying suppliers early, to businesses most important supplier of all, its workforce, and i thought this was a very appealing idea, allowing employees to draw down their salary as they owned it for free, ratherthan their salary as they owned it for free, rather than having to wait until the end of the month, this seemed an effective way amongst other things to help end the scourge of Payday Lending. For firms other things to help end the scourge of Payday Lending. Forfirms in other things to help end the scourge of Payday Lending. For firms in the private sector, while there would be a charge for the employer, there would never be a charge for the employee, and in the Public Sector it would be free for both employer and employee. I became an enthusiastic supporter of this idea, this new app, and wanted to promote it to the nhs and other Public Sector bodies, and i could see a profound social benefit from the take up of this technology. Im just blue sorry that greensill and the 3pp blue sorry that greensill and the app went into administration, and hundreds of hard working people have Lost Theirjobs and many more are threatened by the consequences im desperately sorry. As i was not a director of the company, i have no special insight into what ultimately happened, but im as keen as anyone to learn the lessons and hopefully these enquiries will help with that process. I know you are examining the rules governing lobbying and business appointments, after ministers and officials leave office, and any special arrangements forformer prime office, and any special arrangements for former Prime Ministers and office, and any special arrangements forformer Prime Ministers and on that subject i have these brief thoughts. Lobbying rules were put in place to with lobbying by multiclient firms rather than employees of individual businesses, to make sure that those lobbying new on whose behalf they were being contacted, this was backed by the fact that the existence of all relevant and subsequent meetings with businesses are then made public, and if lobbying can be extended to in house operators without excessive bureaucracy or damaging the interests of charities, there is a case for making that change. The body that vets jobs for former ministers and Civil Servants is well established and in my view works, but it is its examination of appointment should be mandatory and its decision should be enforceable. Former Prime Ministers are in a different category as i said and i have read the arguments for different special arrangements. A longer period before any contact with government over any commercial issue could be appropriate. And a new Special Committee over and above the one existing to look at appointments might help with choices that need to be made. Can i thank you chair, for letting me make the Opening Statement. You chair, for letting me make the Opening Statement. Thank you, david, that did run over Opening Statement. Thank you, david, that did run over in Opening Statement. Thank you, david, that did run over in terms Opening Statement. Thank you, david, that did run over in terms of Opening Statement. Thank you, david, that did run over in terms of what i that did run over in terms of what we had that did run over in terms of what we had agreed that did run over in terms of what we had agreed in that did run over in terms of what we had agreed in terms that did run over in terms of what we had agreed in terms of that did run over in terms of what we had agreed in terms of time, i that did run over in terms of what. We had agreed in terms of time, and therefore we had agreed in terms of time, and therefore we we had agreed in terms of time, and therefore we were we had agreed in terms of time, and therefore we were allocated we had agreed in terms of time, and therefore we were allocated rather i therefore we were allocated rather less time therefore we were allocated rather less time than therefore we were allocated rather less time than we therefore we were allocated rather less time than we had therefore we were allocated rather less time than we had asked therefore we were allocated rather less time than we had asked your| less time than we had asked your office less time than we had asked your office for less time than we had asked your office for for less time than we had asked your office for for this less time than we had asked your office for for this assertion less time than we had asked your office for for this assertion so i less time than we had asked your office for for this assertion so we | office for for this assertion so we could office for for this assertion so we could complete office for for this assertion so we could complete our office for for this assertion so we could complete our scrutiny could complete our scrutiny effectively, could complete our scrutiny effectively, so could complete our scrutiny effectively, so in could complete our scrutiny effectively, so in the could complete our scrutiny effectively, so in the eventl could complete our scrutiny effectively, so in the event that we dont effectively, so in the event that we dont get effectively, so in the event that we dont get through effectively, so in the event that we dont get through this effectively, so in the event that we dont get through this session i dont get through this session having dont get through this session having fully dont get through this session having fully scrutinised dont get through this session having fully scrutinised the i dont get through this session i having fully scrutinised the areas with you having fully scrutinised the areas with you that having fully scrutinised the areas with you that we having fully scrutinised the areas with you that we were having fully scrutinised the areas with you that we were required i having fully scrutinised the areas i with you that we were required to, could with you that we were required to, could i with you that we were required to, could i have with you that we were required to, could i have a with you that we were required to, could i have a commitment with you that we were required to, could i have a commitment from i with you that we were required to, i could i have a commitment from you now that could i have a commitment from you now that you could i have a commitment from you now that you will could i have a commitment from you now that you will return could i have a commitment from you now that you will return to could i have a commitment from you now that you will return to this i now that you will return to this committee now that you will return to this committee to now that you will return to this committee to answer now that you will return to this committee to answer any now that you will return to this committee to answer any subsequent guestions committee to answer any subsequent questions we committee to answer any subsequent questions we may committee to answer any subsequent questions we may have . Committee to answer any subsequent questions we may have . We committee to answer any subsequent questions we may have . Committee to answer any subsequent questions we may have . We have got two hours im questions we may have . We have got two hours im happy questions we may have . We have got two hours im happy to questions we may have . We have got two hours im happy to start questions we may have . We have got two hours im happy to start running. Two hours im happy to start running the clock from now, if that helps. But in the event we dont get through but in the event we dont get through everything, but in the event we dont get through everything, we i but in the event we dont get through everything, we had i but in the event we dont get i through everything, we had over three through everything, we had over three hours. Through everything, we had over three hours, so through everything, we had over three hours, so that through everything, we had over three hours, so that will through everything, we had over three hours, so that will be i through everything, we had over three hours, so that will be onel three hours, so that will be one hour three hours, so that will be one hour less three hours, so that will be one hour less on three hours, so that will be one hour less on average three hours, so that will be one hour less on average compared | three hours, so that will be one i hour less on average compared to three hours, so that will be one hour less on average compared to the other hour less on average compared to the other sessions hour less on average compared to the other sessions we hour less on average compared to the other sessions we had hour less on average compared to the other sessions we had included hour less on average compared to the other sessions we had included with l other sessions we had included with Lex Greensill other sessions we had included with Lex Greensill himself, other sessions we had included with Lex Greensill himself, so other sessions we had included with Lex Greensill himself, so could i i Lex Greensill himself, so could i have Lex Greensill himself, so could i have a Lex Greensill himself, so could i have a commitment Lex Greensill himself, so could i have a commitment that Lex Greensill himself, so could i have a commitment that in i Lex Greensill himself, so could i have a commitment that in the i Lex Greensill himself, so could i have a commitment that in the event we dont have a commitment that in the event we dont get have a commitment that in the event we dont get through have a commitment that in the event we dont get through anything have a commitment that in the event we dont get through anything you i we dont get through anything you will come we dont get through anything you will come back we dont get through anything you will come back again . We dont get through anything you will come back again . 1tier . We dont get through anything you will come back again . We dont get through anything you will come back again . Very happy to answer all the will come back again . Very happy to answer all the questions. Will come back again . Very happy to answer all the questions. Happy will come back again . Very happy to answer all the questions. Happy to l answer all the questions. Happy to answer all the questions. Happy to answer the answer all the questions. Happy to answer the question answer all the questions. Happy to answer the question is, answer all the questions. Happy to answer the question is, that answer all the questions. Happy to answer the question is, that is answer all the questions. Happy to answer the question is, that is a i answer the question is, that is a yes to answer the question is, that is a yes to coming answer the question is, that is a yes to coming back answer the question is, that is a yes to coming back to answer the question is, that is a yes to coming back to the answer the question is, that is a yes to coming back to the committee . Lets see yes to coming back to the committee . Lets see how yes to coming back to the committee . Lets see how we yes to coming back to the committee . Lets see how we get yes to coming back to the committee . Lets see how we get on. Yes to coming back to the committee . Lets see how we get on. We yes to coming back to the committee . Lets see how we get on. We have yes to coming back to the committee . Lets see how we get on. We have got| lets see how we get on. We have got effectively until five oclock but if we have not got through them, we can do this again. The if we have not got through them, we can do this again. Can do this again. The committee would expeet can do this again. The committee would expeet a can do this again. The committee would expect a straight can do this again. The committee would expect a straight answer. Can do this again. The committee | would expect a straight answer to that question would expect a straight answer to that question. If would expect a straight answer to that question that question. If we dont get throu. H that question. If we dont get through it that question. If we dont get through it im that question. If we dont get through it im happy that question. If we dont get through it im happy to that question. If we dont get through it im happy to come | that question. If we dont get through it im happy to come back again. I through it im happy to come back aaain. ~. Through it im happy to come back aaain. , ~. ,. , again. I take that therefore, unless ou are again. I take that therefore, unless you are going again. I take that therefore, unless you are going to again. I take that therefore, unless you are going to contradict again. I take that therefore, unless you are going to contradict me, again. I take that therefore, unless you are going to contradict me, if. You are going to contradict me, if we dont you are going to contradict me, if we dont get you are going to contradict me, if we dont get through you are going to contradict me, if we dont get through it you are going to contradict me, if we dont get through it to you are going to contradict me, if we dont get through it to the we dont get through it to the satisfaction we dont get through it to the satisfaction of we dont get through it to the satisfaction of the we dont get through it to thei satisfaction of the committee, we dont get through it to the satisfaction of the committee, and we therefore satisfaction of the committee, and we therefore invite satisfaction of the committee, and we therefore invite you satisfaction of the committee, and we therefore invite you back, satisfaction of the committee, and we therefore invite you back, you i we therefore invite you back, you will come we therefore invite you back, you will come back we therefore invite you back, you will come back and we therefore invite you back, you will come back and answer we therefore invite you back, you| will come back and answer further questions . Will come back and answer further questions . Liti will come back and answer further cuestions . , will come back and answer further questions . Thank will come back and answer further questions . Thank you. | will come back and answer further questions . Thank you. You questions . Of course. Thank you. You mentioned you questions . Of course. Thank you. You mentioned you were questions . Of course. Thank you. You mentioned you were not questions . Of course. Thank you. You mentioned you were not a questions . Of course. Thank you. You mentioned you were not a Director Questions . Of course. Thank you. You mentioned you were not a director of| mentioned you were not a director of greensill mentioned you were not a director of Greensill Which mentioned you were not a director of Greensill Which was mentioned you were not a director of Greensill Which was true mentioned you were not a director of Greensill Which was true but mentioned you were not a director of Greensill Which was true but Lex Greensill which was true but Lex Greensill Greensill Which was true but Lex Greensill when Greensill Which was true but Lex Greensill when he Greensill Which was true but Lex Greensill when he gave Greensill Which was true but Lex Greensill when he gave his Greensill Which was true but Lex Greensill when he gave his evidence this week greensill when he gave his evidence this week stated greensill when he gave his evidence this week stated that greensill when he gave his evidence this week stated that you greensill when he gave his evidence this week stated that you had greensill when he gave his evidence this week stated that you had an this week stated that you had an open this week stated that you had an open invitation this week stated that you had an open invitation to this week stated that you had an open invitation to board this week stated that you had Ani Open Invitation to Board Meetings and that open invitation to Board Meetings and that you open invitation to Board Meetings and that you attended open invitation to Board Meetings and that you attended regularly, i open invitation to Board Meetingsl and that you attended regularly, is that the and that you attended regularly, is that the case . And that you attended regularly, is that the ease . And that you attended regularly, is that the case . Yes. During and that you attended regularly, is that the case . Yes. During the that the case . Yes. During the runup to that the case . Yes. During the runup to the that the case . during the run up to the pandemic that the case . during the run up to the pandemic and i that the case . during the. Run up to the pandemic and the pandemic run up to the pandemic and the pandemic itself, run up to the pandemic and the pandemic itself, you run up to the pandemic and the pandemic itself, you take run up to the pandemic and the pandemic itself, you take part l run up to the pandemic and the| pandemic itself, you take part in discussions pandemic itself, you take part in discussions on pandemic itself, you take part in discussions on the pandemic itself, you take part in discussions on the board pandemic itself, you take part in discussions on the board of discussions on the Board Of Greensill discussions on the Board Of Greensill or discussions on the Board Of Greensill or were discussions on the Board Of Greensill or were you discussions on the Board Of Greensill or were you there discussions on the Board Of Greensill or were you there simply as an greensill or were you there simply as an observer . Greensill or were you there simply as an observer . [ greensill or were you there simply as an observer . As an observer . I was invited to attend the as an observer . I was invited to attend the board as an observer . I was invited to attend the board but as an observer . I was invited to attend the board but i as an observer . I was invited to attend the board but i would. As an observer . I was invited to i attend the board but i would take part in Board Meetings and listen to the arguments and make contributions, sometimes on geopolitical matters, and such like, so yes, i was a regular attende and would contribute, but there are a lot of board issues which are director only and i did not sit on the Credit Committee and i did not sit on the Risk Committee or the Audit Committee or those sorts of functions so i was not involved in the day to day running of the business or Credit Decisions, but yes, of course, i would listen to discussions and make contributions. Did those discussions at the time the pandemic did those discussions at the time the pandemic emerged did those discussions at the time the pandemic emerged include. Did those discussions at the time i the pandemic emerged include the difficulties the pandemic emerged include the difficulties that the pandemic emerged include the difficulties that greensill the pandemic emerged include the difficulties that Greensill May the pandemic emerged include the difficulties that Greensill May in i difficulties that Greensill May in the future difficulties that Greensill May in the future face difficulties that Greensill May in the future face as difficulties that Greensill May in the future face as a difficulties that Greensill May in| the future face as a consequence difficulties that Greensill May in the future face as a consequence of the future face as a consequence of the pandemic . The future face as a consequence of the pandemic . L the future face as a consequence of the pandemic . The future face as a consequence of the pandemic . I dont recall, and of course the the pandemic . I dont recall, and of course the pandemic the pandemic . I dont recall, and of course the pandemic hit the pandemic . I dont recall, and of course the pandemic hit very course the pandemic hit very quickly, and i would have to go back and check, exactly when the Board Meetings were, but i did have discussions with Lex Greensill himself about what effectively was a Mini Economic heart attack, as the covid situation hit, and we were in a situation where no one knew how high unemployment would go and how badly growth would be effective, and exactly what would happen to Credit Markets. It was going back to that time, an extraordinary economic period and so we were discussing those things. Period and so we were discussing those things period and so we were discussing those things those things. Would you have discussed those things. Would you have discussed the those things. Would you have discussed the future those things. Would you have i discussed the future Potential Threat discussed the future Potential Threat that discussed the future Potential Threat that the discussed the future Potential Threat that the pandemic discussed the future potential. Threat that the pandemic posed discussed the future Potential Threat that the pandemic posed in terms threat that the pandemic posed in terms of threat that the pandemic posed in terms of the threat that the pandemic posed in terms of the availability threat that the pandemic posed in terms of the availability of threat that the pandemic posed in terms of the availability of credit. Terms of the availability of Credit Insurance terms of the availability of Credit Insurance going terms of the availability of Credit Insurance Going Forward terms of the availability of Credit Insurance Going Forward and insurance Going Forward and increased insurance Going Forward and increased Risk Insurance Going Forward and increased risk of insurance Going Forward and increased risk of the insurance Going Forward and increased risk of the clients| insurance Going Forward and. Increased risk of the clients of insurance Going Forward and increased risk of the clients of the company increased risk of the clients of the company defaulting increased risk of the clients of the company defaulting and increased risk of the clients of the company defaulting and the increased risk of the clients of the I Company Defaulting and the pressure on continued company defaulting and the pressure on continued Access Company defaulting and the pressure on continued access to company defaulting and the pressure on continued access to funding on continued access to funding through on continued access to funding through the on continued access to funding through the Securitisation On continued access to funding i through the Securitisation Process within through the Securitisation Process within the through the Securitisation Process within the model through the Securitisation Process within the Model Greensill through the Securitisation Process within the Model Greensill was i within the Model Greensill was working within the Model Greensill was working to . Within the Model Greensill was working to . L within the Model Greensill was working to . Working to . I dont recall discussions working to . I dont recall discussions in working to . I dont recall discussions in particular. Working to . I dont recall. Discussions in particular on working to . I dont recall discussions in particular on the insurance issue but there were discussions about the state of the Credit Markets and the access to Credit Markets and the access to Credit Markets, and the concern there was that the companies and Supply Chains that we help to finance, may struggle in those markets, and it was very important to keep those markets open. 50 there was that discussion im sure we will come onto this, the remarks of the governor of the Bank Of England, that Supply Chains were important and the effect of the pandemic on Supply Chains were something that needed to be looked at. Did Supply Chains were something that needed to be looked at. Needed to be looked at. Did you recounise needed to be looked at. Did you recognise that needed to be looked at. Did you recognise that the needed to be looked at. Did you recognise that the extent needed to be looked at. Did you recognise that the extent that i needed to be looked at. Did you i recognise that the extent that the pandemic recognise that the extent that the pandemic would recognise that the extent that the pandemic would impose recognise that the extent that the pandemic would impose pressure| recognise that the extent that the. Pandemic would impose pressure on the Insurance Pandemic would impose pressure on the Insurance Market pandemic would impose pressure on the Insurance Market and pandemic would impose pressure on the Insurance Market and thereforei the Insurance Market and therefore liy the Insurance Market and therefore by extension the Insurance Market and therefore by extension the the Insurance Market and therefore by extension the ability the Insurance Market and therefore by extension the ability of by extension the ability of companies by extension the ability of companies to by extension the ability of companies to provide by extension the ability of companies to provide insurance to the Greensill Companies to provide insurance to the Greensill Business, companies to provide insurance to the Greensill Business, that companies to provide insurance to the Greensill Business, that that l the Greensill Business, that that was a the Greensill Business, that that was a potential the Greensill Business, that that was a potential major the Greensill Business, that that was a potential major problem l the Greensill Business, that that was a potential major problem coming down the was a potential major problem coming down the track was a potential major problem coming down the track that was a potential major problem coming down the track that you was a potential major problem coming down the track that you should was a potential major problem coming down the track that you should have. Down the track that you should have been able down the track that you should have been able to down the track that you should have been able to foresee . Down the track that you should have been able to foresee . [ down the track that you should have been able to foresee . Been able to foresee . I dont recall that particular been able to foresee . I dont recall that particular conversation, been able to foresee . I dont recall that particular conversation, and i been able to foresee . I dont recall that particular conversation, and as i say, the main focus, i would have to go back and check exactly when the Board Meetings were and whether i was in attendance but the discussions i remember as covid hit and as the economic problems started, the discussions were about the state of the Credit Markets, and the state of the Credit Markets, and the impact that might have on particularly businesses not being able to Access Credit, and that was really the discussion that we were having. That obviously turned into this issue of what we could do to try and help at that stage. Im try and help at that stage. Im thinkin try and help at that stage. Im thinking more try and help at that stage. Im thinking more about greensill at the moment thinking more about greensill at the moment so thinking more about greensill at the moment so back thinking more about greensill at the moment so back at thinking more about greensill at the moment so back at the thinking more about greensill at the moment so back at the time thinking more about greensill at the moment so back at the time you thinking more about greensill at the i moment so back at the time you were lobbying moment so back at the time you were lobbying l moment so back at the time you were lobb in. , � moment so back at the time you were lobb inc. ,�. , moment so back at the time you were lobb inc. J. , lobbying. I dont recall any particular lobbying. I dont recall any particular conversations i lobbying. I dont recall any. Particular conversations about lobbying. I dont recall any particular conversations about the insurance issue. In terms of my conversations about greensill. Greensill was in Good Financial Health and we had had the softbank investment into the company which had put 1 billion into the Company Effectively and greensill had a successful 2019 and it looked set to have a successful 2020. Covid was going to have its impact but at no stage in those conversations was i aware in any way of any concern that greensill would be in any serious financial difficulty and that this might be a tougher year than the one before, but no one could tell what was around the corner, but there was no Sense Ofjeopardy if that is what you are asking. Mas no sense of jeopardy if that is what you are asking you are asking. Was there a sense that with the you are asking. Was there a sense that with the pandemic, you are asking. Was there a sense that with the pandemic, the you are asking. Was there a sense i that with the pandemic, the appetite within that with the pandemic, the appetite within the that with the pandemic, the appetite within the insurance that with the pandemic, the appetite within the insurance sector that with the pandemic, the appetite within the insurance sector for within the insurance sector for taking within the insurance sector for taking this within the insurance sector for taking this would within the insurance sector for taking this would be within the insurance sector for. Taking this would be diminished . Thats taking this would be diminished . Thats a taking this would be diminished . Thats a well taking this would be diminished . Thats a well understood taking this would be diminished . Thats a well understood concept| taking this would be diminished . Thats a well understood concept and therefore thats a well understood concept and therefore there thats a well understood concept and therefore there might thats a well understood concept and therefore there might have thats a well understood concept and therefore there might have been thats a well understood concept and i therefore there might have been some possibility therefore there might have been some possibility that therefore there might have been some possibility that it therefore there might have been some possibility that it would therefore there might have been some possibility that it would have therefore there might have been some possibility that it would have been possibility that it would have been more possibility that it would have been more difficult possibility that it would have been more difficult for possibility that it would have been more difficult for greensill possibility that it would have been more difficult for greensill to more difficult for greensill to secure more difficult for greensill to secure that more difficult for greensill to secure that insurance more difficult for greensill to secure that insurance cover. More difficult for greensill to secure that insurance cover which after secure that insurance cover which after all secure that insurance cover which after all totally secure that insurance cover which after all totally underpinned secure that insurance cover which after all totally underpinned the i after all totally underpinned the model after all totally underpinned the model it after all totally underpinned the model it was after all totally underpinned the model it was running . After all totally underpinned the model it was running . The model it was running . The conversations model it was running . The conversations i model it was running . Conversations i remember, i model it was running . Conversations i remember, i would have to go back to the Board Meeting, but the ones i remember were about the state of the Credit Markets and the ability, as people were talking, i remember this period, conversation in government and infinance period, conversation in government and in finance was, what can we do to make sure that the banks keep lending and what can we do to make sure Credit Markets stay open, for businesses to Access Credit . I dont remember particular conversations about the insurance situation. But im not on the credit and Risk Committees and so there might have been conversations going on elsewhere but that wasnt especially the conversation i was having at that time. ,. , r the conversation i was having at that time. ,. ,~. , the conversation i was having at that time the conversation i was having at that time. ,. ,. , that time. Can i ask a delicate but im ortant that time. Can i ask a delicate but important question, that time. Can i ask a delicate but important question, because that time. Can i ask a delicate but important question, because you | that time. Can i ask a delicate but important question, because you have spoken important question, because you have spoken about important question, because you have spoken about the important question, because you have spoken about the motivations important question, because you have spoken about the motivations you important question, because you have spoken about the motivations you had j spoken about the motivations you had for the spoken about the motivations you had for the lobbying spoken about the motivations you had for the Lobbying Sector spoken about the motivations you had for the Lobbying Sector and spoken about the motivations you had for the Lobbying Sector and helping. For the Lobbying Sector and helping smes for the Lobbying Sector and helping smes stop for the Lobbying Sector and helping smes stop what for the Lobbying Sector and helping smes stop what was for the Lobbying Sector and helping smes stop what was the for the Lobbying Sector and helping i smes stop what was the arrangement in broad smes stop what was the arrangement in broad terms smes stop what was the arrangement in broad terms in smes stop what was the arrangement in broad terms in terms smes stop what was the arrangement in broad terms in terms of smes stop what was the arrangement in broad terms in terms of your in broad terms in terms of your personal in broad terms in terms of your personal arrangement in broad terms in terms of your personal arrangement with in broad terms in terms of your personal arrangement with the | personal arrangement with the business . Personal arrangement with the business . You personal arrangement with the business . You may personal arrangement with the business . You may have personal arrangement with the business . You may have had i personal arrangement with the business . You may have had Share Options business . You may have had Share Options there business . You may have had Share Options. There has business . You may have had Share Options. There has been business . You may have had sharei options. There has been speculation in the options. There has been speculation in the press options. There has been speculation in the press and options. There has been speculation in the press and some options. There has been speculation in the press and some people options. There has been speculation in the press and some people said i in the press and some people said you suggested in the press and some people said you suggested to in the press and some people said you suggested to Friends In The Press and some people said you suggested to friends that in the press and some people said you suggested to friends that you | you suggested to friends that you could you suggested to friends that you could if you suggested to friends that you could if everything you suggested to friends that you could if everything went you suggested to friends that you could if everything went the you suggested to friends that you could if everything went the right| could if everything went the right weight could if everything went the right weight make could if everything went the right weight make a could if everything went the right weight make a gain could if everything went the right weight make a gain of could if everything went the right weight make a gain of around could if everything went the right| weight make a gain of around £60 million weight make a gain of around £60 million and weight make a gain of around £60 million and others weight make a gain of around £60 million and others have weight make a gain of around £60 million and others have said weight make a gain of around £60 million and others have said that. Weight make a gain of around £60| million and others have said that is a vastly million and others have said that is a vastly inflated million and others have said that is a vastly inflated figure million and others have said that is a vastly inflated figure million and others have said that is a vastly inflated figure the a vastly inflated figure the right a vastly inflated figure the right way a vastly inflated figure the right way. What a vastly inflated figure the right way. What would a vastly inflated figure the right way. What would you i a vastly inflated figure the i right way. What would you have expected right way. What would you have expected to right way. What would you have expected to gain right way. What would you have expected to gain if right way. What would you have expected to gain if your right way. What would you have expected to gain if your involvement had gone expected to gain if your involvement had gone to expected to gain if your involvement had gone to plan . Expected to gain if your involvement had gone to plan . [ expected to gain if your involvement had gone to plan . Had gone to plan . I was paid an annual amount, had gone to plan . I was paid an annual amount, a had gone to plan . I was paid an annual amount, a general had gone to plan . I was paid an annual amount, a general is had gone to plan . I was paid an annual amount, a general is a i had gone to plan . I was paid an. Annual amount, a general is a annual amount, a general is a generous annual amount, far more than i got as Prime Minister, and i also had shares invested over the period of time my contract, and so it is important for the committee to note that i had a big Economic Investment in greensill and i wanted it to succeed and grow, and i havent put a number on those things because it is very important in the questions you are asking, what was my role, how did i carry it out, was it appropriate to lobby, did i overstep the mark, the broader questions of what former Prime Ministers should and shouldnt do, but the fact i have this economic interest in a serious economic one is important but i dont think the amount is germane to answering those questions as far as im concerned, because it is a private matter. It because it is a private matter. It is and it isnt. If the incentive was is and it isnt. If the incentive was a is and it isnt. If the incentive was a matter is and it isnt. If the incentive was a matter of is and it isnt. If the incentive was a matter of some is and it isnt. If the incentive was a matter of some tens i is and it isnt. If the incentive was a matter of some Tens Of Thousands was a matter of some Tens Of Thousands of was a matter of some Tens Of Thousands of pounds, was a matter of some Tens Of Thousands of pounds, that i was a matter of some Tens Of Thousands of pounds, that would be Distantly Thousands of pounds, that would be distantly different thousands of pounds, that would be distantly different than thousands of pounds, that would be distantly different than if thousands of pounds, that would be distantly different than if it thousands of pounds, that would be distantly different than if it was distantly different than if it was multiple distantly different than if it was multiple millions distantly different than if it was multiple millions of distantly different than if it was multiple millions of pounds, i. Multiple millions of pounds, i think. Multiple millions of pounds, i think. In multiple millions of pounds, i think, in terms multiple millions of pounds, i think, in terms of multiple millions of pounds, i think, in terms of the multiple millions of pounds, ii think, in terms of the potential motivation think, in terms of the potential motivation you think, in terms of the potential motivation you therefore think, in terms of the potential motivation you therefore had i think, in terms of the potential. Motivation you therefore had for think, in terms of the potential motivation you therefore had for the lobbying motivation you therefore had for the lobbying that motivation you therefore had for the lobbying that was motivation you therefore had for the lobbying that was carried motivation you therefore had for the lobbying that was carried out. Motivation you therefore had for the lobbying that was carried out. You i lobbying that was carried out. You must lobbying that was carried out. You must accept lobbying that was carried out. You must accept that. Lobbying that was carried out. You must accept that. Do lobbying that was carried out. You must accept that. Do you lobbying that was carried out. You must accept that. Do you view lobbying that was carried out. You must accept that. Do you view thej must accept that. Do you view the £60 million must accept that. Do you view the £60 million figure must accept that. Do you view the £60 million figure is must accept that. Do you view the £60 million figure is totally £60 million figure is totally absurd . £60 million figure is totally absurd . , ,. , absurd . Completely absurd. I can tell ou, absurd . Completely absurd. I can tell you. The absurd . Completely absurd. I can tell you, the motivation absurd . Completely absurd. I can tell you, the motivation for tell you, the motivation for contacting the government was i thought we had a really good idea for how to help extend credit to thousands of businesses and i would like to explain why i thought. I have sat on the other side of the fence in government where you have a Credit Crunch and you have difficulties in the Credit Market and you are desperate to get banks lending and you are desperate to get credit to businesses and i well remember standing at the dispatch box and being asked, how Many Companies are taking part in this scheme, howley banks are taking part . And having to give very disappointing answers how many banks. I was keen to keep on asking because i thought it was in the Public Interest to try and get money into Small Businesses. Mr; Public Interest to try and get money into Small Businesses. Into Small Businesses. My question and i know into Small Businesses. My question and i know it into Small Businesses. My question and i know it is into Small Businesses. My question and i know it is a into Small Businesses. My question and i know it is a delicate and i know it is a delicate question. And i know it is a delicate question, but and i know it is a delicate question, but important, | and i know it is a delicate. Question, but important, if and i know it is a delicate question, but important, if there is a large question, but important, if there is a large amount question, but important, if there is a large amount of question, but important, if there is a large amount of money question, but important, if there is a large amount of money riding question, but important, if there is a large amount of money riding on| a large amount of money riding on this business a large amount of money riding on this business succeeding, a large amount of money riding on this business succeeding, that a large amount of money riding on this business succeeding, that is i a large amount of money riding on this business succeeding, that is aj this business succeeding, that is a different this business succeeding, that is a different situation this business succeeding, that is a different situation compared this business succeeding, that is a different situation compared to. This business succeeding, that is a different situation compared to a i different situation compared to a small different situation compared to a small amount different situation compared to a small amount of different situation compared to a small amount of money different situation compared to a small amount of money riding i different situation compared to a i small amount of money riding on different situation compared to a small amount of money riding on the business small amount of money riding on the business succeeding small amount of money riding on the business succeeding and small amount of money riding on the business succeeding and i small amount of money riding on the business succeeding and i take small amount of money riding on the business succeeding and i take it business succeeding and i take it from business succeeding and i take it from what business succeeding and i take it from what you business succeeding and i take it from what you are business succeeding and i take it from what you are saying business succeeding and i take it from what you are saying that. Business succeeding and i take it i from what you are saying that there was at from what you are saying that there was at least from what you are saying that there was at least a from what you are saying that there was at least a significant from what you are saying that there was at least a significant amount. Ll was at least a significant amount. Wanted it to succeed because i was at least a significant amount. wanted it to succeed because i was being paid and i had shares, and i had interest in it, and that is important for the committee to know. Just as if a bank takes part in a Loan Guarantee scheme, that is good for the country because those Loan Guarantees will go to businesses so greensill, if our scheme had been accepted, of being able to use supply Chain Finance bonds to get cash into businesses up and down the country, that would have been good for those businesses but also good for those businesses but also good for us and i would not hide that for a second but the motivation, having been on the other side of the fence, knowing when you are looking for the solutions, that it is so difficult sometimes to make them work of the motivation was about trying to help the government to get those schemes right. The government to get those schemes riuht. ~ , the government to get those schemes riuht. ~ right. Thank you. In your written evidence to right. Thank you. In your written evidence to us right. Thank you. In your written evidence to us you right. Thank you. In your written evidence to us you said right. Thank you. In your written evidence to us you said you right. Thank you. In your written. Evidence to us you said you became concerned evidence to us you said you became concerned that evidence to us you said you became concerned that the evidence to us you said you became concerned that the Company Evidence to us you said you became concerned that the Company Mighti evidence to us you said you became l concerned that the Company Might be in serious concerned that the Company Might be in serious financial concerned that the Company Might be in serious financial difficulty concerned that the Company Might be in serious financial difficulty in in serious financial difficulty in december in serious financial difficulty in December 2020, in serious financial difficulty in december2020, and in serious financial difficulty in December 2020, and that in serious financial difficulty in December 2020, and that is l in serious financial difficulty in i December 2020, and that is not in serious financial difficulty in December 2020, and that is not the same December 2020, and that is not the same as December 2020, and that is not the same as the December 2020, and that is not the same as the time December 2020, and that is not the same as the time of December 2020, and that is not the same as the time of lobbying, same as the time of lobbying, believing same as the time of lobbying, believing their same as the time of lobbying, believing their work same as the time of lobbying, believing their work looming i same as the time of lobbying, believing their work looming issues coming believing their work looming issues coming down believing their work looming issues coming down the believing their work looming issues coming down the track, believing their work looming issues coming down the track, and believing their work looming issues coming down the track, and there i coming down the track, and there seems coming down the track, and there seems to coming down the track, and there seems to be coming down the track, and there seems to be evidence coming down the track, and there seems to be evidence out coming down the track, and there seems to be evidence out there. Coming down the track, and there. Seems to be evidence out there you might seems to be evidence out there you might have seems to be evidence out there you might have come seems to be evidence out there you might have come to seems to be evidence out there you might have come to the seems to be evidence out there you might have come to the conclusion, that whilst might have come to the conclusion, that whilst the might have come to the conclusion, that whilst the Company Might have come to the conclusion, that whilst the company was might have come to the conclusion, that whilst the company was not that whilst the company was not about that whilst the company was not about to that whilst the company was not about to fail that whilst the company was not about to fall over, that whilst the company was not about to fall over, at that whilst the company was not about to fall over, at the that whilst the company was not about to fall over, at the start. That whilst the company was not| about to fall over, at the start of the pandemic about to fall over, at the start of the pandemic when about to fall over, at the start of the pandemic when the about to fall over, at the start of the pandemic when the lobbying i the pandemic when the lobbying happened. The pandemic when the lobbying happened, nevertheless the pandemic when the lobbying happened, nevertheless it the pandemic when the lobbying happened, nevertheless it was l the pandemic when the lobbying happened, nevertheless it was going through happened, nevertheless it was going through some happened, nevertheless it was going through some fairly happened, nevertheless it was going through some fairly choppy happened, nevertheless it was going through some fairly choppy waters. I through some fairly choppy waters. Greensitt through some fairly choppy waters. Greensitt in through some fairly choppy waters. Greensill in his through some fairly choppy waters. Greensill in his evidence, through some fairly choppy waters. Greensill in his evidence, Lex Greensill in his evidence, lex greensitt, greensill in his evidence, Lex Greensill, he greensill in his evidence, Lex Greensill, he said greensill in his evidence, Lex Greensill, he said at greensill in his evidence, Lex Greensill, he said at the greensill in his evidence, Lex Greensill, he said at the time greensill in his evidence, lex. Greensill, he said at the time of the lobbying, greensill, he said at the time of the lobbying, he greensill, he said at the time of the lobbying, he said, greensill, he said at the time of the lobbying, he said, we greensill, he said at the time of the lobbying, he said, we did i greensill, he said at the time of| the lobbying, he said, we did not know the lobbying, he said, we did not know what the lobbying, he said, we did not know what was the lobbying, he said, we did not know what was going the lobbying, he said, we did not know what was going to the lobbying, he said, we did not know what was going to happen. The lobbying, he said, we did not know what was going to happen next. He said. Know what was going to happen next. He said. The know what was going to happen next. He said. The if know what was going to happen next. He said, the ccf access know what was going to happen next. He said, the ccf access was know what was going to happen next. He said, the ccf access was crudity. He said, the ccf access was crudity and insurance he said, the ccf access was crudity and insurance policy he said, the ccf access was crudity and insurance policy and he said, the ccf access was crudity and insurance policy and he he said, the ccf access was crudity and insurance policy and he went. He said, the ccf access was crudityi and insurance policy and he went on to say and insurance policy and he went on to say that and insurance policy and he went on to say that this and insurance policy and he went on to say that this was and insurance policy and he went on to say that this was a and insurance policy and he went on to say that this was a prudent and insurance policy and he went on to say that this was a prudent thing | to say that this was a prudent thing for us to say that this was a prudent thing for us to to say that this was a prudent thing for us to do to say that this was a prudent thing for us to do and to say that this was a prudent thing for us to do and he to say that this was a prudent thing for us to do and he also to say that this was a prudent thing for us to do and he also told to say that this was a prudent thing for us to do and he also told us,. To say that this was a prudent thing for us to do and he also told us, iti for us to do and he also told us, it is important for us to do and he also told us, it is important if for us to do and he also told us, it is important if i for us to do and he also told us, it is important if i can for us to do and he also told us, it is important if i can remind for us to do and he also told us, it is important if i can remind the. Is important if i can remind the committee is important if i can remind the committee that is important if i can remind the committee that for is important if i can remind the committee that for the is important if i can remind the committee that for the credit l committee that for the Credit Insurance committee that for the Credit Insurance Market Committee that for the Credit Insurance market Covid Committee that for the Credit Insurance market covid was i committee that for the credit. Insurance market covid was an extraordinary Insurance Market covid was an extraordinary frightening Insurance Market covid was an extraordinary frightening time| Insurance Market covid was an extraordinary frightening time and when extraordinary frightening time and when there extraordinary frightening time and when there was extraordinary frightening time and when there was an extraordinary frightening time and when there was an expectation. Extraordinary frightening time and when there was an expectation of| when there was an expectation of very significant when there was an expectation of very significant losses, when there was an expectation of very significant losses, he when there was an expectation of very significant losses, he said. L very significant losses, he said. Given very significant losses, he said. Given the very significant losses, he said. Given the centrality very significant losses, he said. Given the centrality of very significant losses, he said. Given the centrality of the given the centrality of the available given the centrality of the available insurance given the centrality of the available insurance to given the centrality of the available insurance to the| given the centrality of the available insurance to the model given the centrality of the available insurance to the model and indeed available insurance to the model and indeed when available insurance to the model and indeed when it available insurance to the model and indeed when it rose available insurance to the model and indeed when it rose removed available insurance to the model and indeed when it rose removed the indeed when it rose removed the business indeed when it rose removed the business collapsed, indeed when it rose removed the business collapsed, indeed when it rose removed the business collapsed, when indeed when it rose removed the business collapsed, when it. Indeed when it rose removed the. Business collapsed, when it was removed, business collapsed, when it was removed, the business collapsed, when it was removed, the business business collapsed, when it was removed, the business collapsed, i business collapsed, when it was i removed, the business collapsed, so that was removed, the business collapsed, so that was a removed, the business collapsed, so that was a powerful removed, the business collapsed, so that was a powerful thing removed, the business collapsed, so that was a powerful thing to removed, the business collapsed, so that was a powerful thing to say, that was a powerful thing to say, and there that was a powerful thing to say, and there were that was a powerful thing to say, and there were press that was a powerful thing to say, and there were press reports that was a powerful thing to say, i and there were press reports during the runup and there were press reports during the runup to and there were press reports during the runup to the and there were press reports during the run up to the pandemic and there were press reports during the run up to the pandemic and the run up to the pandemic and during the run up to the pandemic and during it. The run up to the pandemic and during it. For the run up to the pandemic and during it, for example, the run up to the pandemic and during it, for example, the the run up to the pandemic and during it, for example, the 4th| the run up to the pandemic and i during it, for example, the 4th of may 2020, during it, for example, the 4th of may 2020, during during it, for example, the 4th of may 2020, during the during it, for example, the 4th of may 2020, during the period during it, for example, the 4th of may 2020, during the period of. May 2020, during the period of lobbying, may 2020, during the period of lobbying, the may 2020, during the period of lobbying, the financial may 2020, during the period of lobbying, the Financial Times. Lobbying, the Financial Times reported lobbying, the Financial Times reported lex lobbying, the Financial Times reported Lex Greensill lobbying, the Financial Times reported Lex Greensill had i lobbying, the Financial Times reported Lex Greensill had suffered a raft reported Lex Greensill had suffered a raft of reported Lex Greensill had suffered a raft of client reported Lex Greensill had suffered a raft of client defaults. A raft of client defaults. Parliamentary a raft of client defaults. I parliamentary questions, a raft of client defaults. Parliamentary questions, from a raft of client defaults. Parliamentary questions, from lord myners parliamentary questions, from lord myners asking parliamentary questions, from lord myners asking the parliamentary questions, from lord myners asking the government parliamentary questions, from lord myners asking the government to l myners asking the government to investigate myners asking the government to investigate various myners asking the government to investigate various aspects myners asking the government to investigate various aspects of investigate various aspects of greensitt investigate various aspects of Greensill Business investigate various aspects of Greensill Business which investigate various aspects of| Greensill Business which goes investigate various aspects of Greensill Business which goes back tojune Greensill Business which goes back to june 2019. Greensill business which goes back tojune 2019, well Greensill Business which goes back to june 2019, well before Greensill Business which goes back to june 2019, well before the to june 2019, well before the lobbying to june 2019, well before the lobbying occurred. To june 2019, well before the lobbying occurred. We to june 2019, well before the lobbying occurred. We had i to june 2019, well before the | lobbying occurred. We had an to june 2019, well before the lobbying occurred. We had an e mail from lex lobbying occurred. We had an e mail from Lex Greensill lobbying occurred. We had an e mail from Lex Greensill to lobbying occurred. We had an e mail from Lex Greensill to the lobbying occurred. We had an e mail from Lex Greensill to the Bank Lobbying occurred. We had an e mail from Lex Greensill to the bank of from Lex Greensill to the Bank Of England from Lex Greensill to the Bank Of England on from Lex Greensill to the Bank Of England on the from Lex Greensill to the Bank Of England on the 21st from Lex Greensill to the Bank Of England on the 21st of from Lex Greensill to the Bank Of England on the 21st Of March from Lex Greensill to the bank of. England on the 21st Of March during the period england on the 21st Of March during the period of england on the 21st Of March during the period of lobbying england on the 21st Of March during the period of lobbying when england on the 21st Of March during the period of lobbying when he england on the 21st Of March during i the period of lobbying when he says, with capitat the period of lobbying when he says, with Capital Markets the period of lobbying when he says, with Capital Markets close the period of lobbying when he says, with Capital Markets close to the period of lobbying when he says, with Capital Markets close to us the period of lobbying when he says, with Capital Markets close to us we l with Capital Markets close to us we may need with Capital Markets close to us we may need to with Capital Markets close to us we may need to reduce with Capital Markets close to us we may need to reduce the with Capital Markets close to us we may need to reduce the credit with Capital Markets close to us we may need to reduce the credit we i may need to reduce the credit we deliver may need to reduce the credit we deliver in may need to reduce the credit we deliver in the may need to reduce the credit we deliver in the coming may need to reduce the credit we deliver in the coming week, may need to reduce the credit we i deliver in the coming week, should be see deliver in the coming week, should be see ctf deliver in the coming week, should be see ctf not deliver in the coming week, should be see ctf not be deliver in the coming week, should be see ctf not be open deliver in the coming week, should be see ctf not be open to deliver in the coming week, should be see ctf not be open to us. Deliver in the coming week, should be see ctf not be open to us. Your email be see ctf not be open to us. Your email to be see ctf not be open to us. Your email to the be see ctf not be open to us. Your e mail to the bank be see ctf not be open to us. Your e mail to the bank of be see ctf not be open to us. Your e mail to the Bank Of England be see ctf not be open to us. Your e mail to the Bank Of England on. Be see ctf not be open to us. Your. E mail to the Bank Of England on the 22nd, e mail to the Bank Of England on the 22nd. Once e mail to the Bank Of England on the 22nd. Once again e mail to the Bank Of England on the 22nd, once again during e mail to the Bank Of England on the 22nd, once again during the 22nd, once again during the lobbying, 22nd, once again during the lobbying, you 22nd, once again during the lobbying, you said, 22nd, once again during the lobbying, you said, some i 22nd, once again during the i lobbying, you said, some parts 22nd, once again during the lobbying, you said, some parts of the capitat lobbying, you said, some parts of the Capital Markets lobbying, you said, some parts of the Capital Markets are lobbying, you said, some parts of the Capital Markets are operating| the Capital Markets are operating well for the Capital Markets are operating well for greensill the Capital Markets are operating well for greensill but the Capital Markets are operating well for greensill but capacity well for greensill but Capacity Remains well for greensill but Capacity Remains restrained, well for greensill but Capacity Remains restrained, you well for greensill but Capacity Remains restrained, you said. Well for greensill but Capacity Remains restrained, you said. The fca in remains restrained, you said. The fca in my remains restrained, you said. The fca in my response remains restrained, you said. The fca in my response remains restrained, you said. The fca in my response in remains restrained, you said. The fca in my response in their. Fca in my response in their response fca in my response in their response to fca in my response in their response to my fca in my response in their response to my letter fca in my response in their response to my letter to fca in my response in their response to my letter to them i fca in my response in their response to my letter to them said after the response to my letter to them said after the onset response to my letter to them said after the onset of response to my letter to them said after the onset of the response to my letter to them said after the onset of the pandemic. Response to my letter to them said after the onset of the pandemic in| after the onset of the pandemic in march after the onset of the pandemic in march there after the onset of the pandemic in march there was after the onset of the pandemic in march there was widespread after the onset of the pandemic in. March there was widespread distress in financial march there was widespread distress in Financial Markets march there was widespread distress in Financial Markets across in Financial Markets across financiat in Financial Markets across Financial Services in Financial Markets across Financial Services firms in Financial Markets across| Financial Services firms and in Financial Markets across Financial Services firms and other sectors Financial Services firms and other sectors and Financial Services firms and other sectors and it Financial Services firms and other sectors and it was Financial Services firms and other sectors and it was reported Financial Services firms and other sectors and it was reported in. Sectors and it was reported in various sectors and it was reported in various times sectors and it was reported in various times in sectors and it was reported in various times in the sectors and it was reported in various times in the media i sectors and it was reported in i various times in the media that greensitt various times in the media that greensitt may various times in the media that Greensill May be various times in the media that Greensill May be one various times in the media that Greensill May be one of various times in the media that Greensill May be one of many. Various times in the media that Greensill May be one of many such firms Greensill May be one of many such firms facing Greensill May be one of many such firms facing defaults. Greensill may be one of many such firms facing defaults. Fca Greensill May be one of many such firms facing defaults. Fca staff firms facing defaults. Fca staff were firms facing defaults. Fca staff were aware firms facing defaults. Fca staff were aware of firms facing defaults. Fca staff were aware of these firms facing defaults. Fca staff were aware of these reports, l firms facing defaults. Fca staff. Were aware of these reports, but firms facing defaults. Fca staff were aware of these reports, but you all seem were aware of these reports, but you all seem to were aware of these reports, but you all seem to be were aware of these reports, but you all seem to be saying were aware of these reports, but you all seem to be saying that were aware of these reports, but you all seem to be saying that at were aware of these reports, but you all seem to be saying that at the all seem to be saying that at the time all seem to be saying that at the time of all seem to be saying that at the time of the all seem to be saying that at the time of the lobbying all seem to be saying that at the time of the lobbying you all seem to be saying that at the time of the lobbying you did all seem to be saying that at the time of the lobbying you did not| time of the lobbying you did not believe time of the lobbying you did not believe that time of the lobbying you did not believe that there time of the lobbying you did not believe that there was time of the lobbying you did not believe that there was a time of the lobbying you did not. Believe that there was a significant tooming believe that there was a significant tooming threat believe that there was a significant looming threat to believe that there was a significant looming threat to the believe that there was a significant looming threat to the business, i believe that there was a significanti looming threat to the business, and of course looming threat to the business, and of course greensill, looming threat to the business, and of course greensill, business looming threat to the business, and of course greensill, business into. 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Conclude that at the time of your tobbying conclude that at the time of your tobbying your conclude that at the time of your lobbying your opportunity conclude that at the time of your lobbying your opportunity to conclude that at the time of your. Lobbying your opportunity to make a lane lobbying your opportunity to make a large amount lobbying your opportunity to make a large amount of lobbying your opportunity to make a large amount of money lobbying your opportunity to make a large amount of money was lobbying your opportunity to make a large amount of money was under. Large amount of money was under threat, large amount of money was under threat, not large amount of money was under threat, not least large amount of money was under threat, not least because large amount of money was under threat, not least because of large amount of money was under threat, not least because of the l threat, not least because of the pandemic, threat, not least because of the pandemic, and threat, not least because of the pandemic, and its threat, not least because of the pandemic, and its likely threat, not least because of the pandemic, and its likely future i pandemic, and its likely future impact pandemic, and its likely future impact on pandemic, and its likely future impact on the pandemic, and its likely future impact on the model pandemic, and its likely future impact on the model that pandemic, and its likely future impact on the model that help| pandemic, and its likely future impact on the model that help the Business Impact on the model that help the business together, impact on the model that help the business together, and impact on the model that help the business together, and you impact on the model that help the business together, and you musti business together, and you must surety business together, and you must surety have business together, and you must surely have known business together, and you must surely have known that business together, and you must surely have known that and business together, and you must surely have known that and that| business together, and you must surely have known that and that your fear of surely have known that and that your fear of losing surely have known that and that your fear of losing out surely have known that and that your fear of losing out on surely have known that and that your fear of losing out on a surely have known that and that your fear of losing out on a substantial fear of losing out on a substantial amount fear of losing out on a substantial amount of fear of losing out on a substantial amount of money fear of losing out on a substantial amount of money motivated fear of losing out on a substantial amount of money motivated youi fear of losing out on a substantial. Amount of money motivated you to come amount of money motivated you to come down amount of money motivated you to come down with amount of money motivated you to come down with a amount of money motivated you to come down with a barrage amount of money motivated you to come down with a barrage of amount of money motivated you to| come down with a barrage of texts, on whatsapp, come down with a barrage of texts, on whatsapp, e mails, come down with a barrage of texts, on whatsapp, e mails, meetings, i come down with a barrage of texts, on whatsapp, e mails, meetings, over 60 contacts on whatsapp, e mails, meetings, over 60 contacts in on whatsapp, e mails, meetings, over 60 contacts in total, on whatsapp, e mails, meetings, over 60 contacts in total, towards 60 contacts in total, towards government 60 contacts in total, towards Government Ministers 60 contacts in total, towards Government Ministers and i 60 contacts in total, towards i Government Ministers and Civil Servants, Government Ministers and Civil Servants, so Government Ministers and Civil Servants, so what Government Ministers and Civil Servants, so what you Government Ministers and Civil Servants, so what you have Government Ministers and Civil Servants, so what you have to| Government Ministers and civil. Servants, so what you have to say Government Ministers and Civil Servants, so what you have to say to those servants, so what you have to say to those who servants, so what you have to say to those who hold servants, so what you have to say to those who hold that servants, so what you have to say to those who hold that view . Servants, so what you have to say to those who hold that view . Servants, so what you have to say to those who hold that view . What i servants, so what you have to say to. Those who hold that view . What do you. Those who hold that view . What do ou. , those who hold that view . What do ou,. ,. , those who hold that view . What do ou. ,. ,. You. That is not what i felt at the time and that you. That is not what i felt at the time and that is you. That is not what i felt at the time and that is not you. That is not what i felt at the time and that is not what you. That is not what i felt at the i time and that is not what motivated me and there is a huge difference between constraint capacity in the Credit Markets and the risk of a business failing and when Lex Greensill was in front of you he also said that he did not believe there was a danger of the business failing at that time and he did not think the business faced failure until December 2020, as i did, and if you look at what happened in the rest of that year, the business actually had a successful year, extending a similar amount of credit in 2022 what it did in 2019, in 2020, to what it did. On the issue of defaults, you have clients that occasionally default but the insurance effectively covered that as far as i understand and he gave the example of an mc that did fail for all sorts of reasons but greensill was able to recover the money for its clients because of the insurance situation but i can say to you that i really believed in the solution that we had and we were putting in government that i thought would make a difference, and that was my motivation for doing so. Ive spent most of my adult life in Public Service and i believe in it deeply, and i would never put forward something i did not think was absolutely in the interests of the public good and that is what i thought i was doing on the behalf of greensill. We will come onto the fact there was quite a lot of contact and there was a lot of persistence and i can explain why they were good reasons for that. It is important we cover that butjust to be absolutely clear, i did not believe in march or april when i was doing this contact, that there was a risk of greensill falling over. I did not think that. If you look at what happened late on in that year, when greensill was looking at a very successful capital raise, a lot of people wanting to invest in the business, just take the example of the furlough scheme, if this was a business in trouble it would have been using it, for its staff, and i think it has 1000 employees but it did not even access the furlough scheme until December 2020 when it furloughed six people in the property department. Of course, you are right to ask these questions, but i am 100 clear that my motivation for contacting the government is i thought we had good ideas to help with the credit crisis. I can see as i said, the government did an amazingly good job at introducing schemes that really did work, but at the time in march and april there was a sense of schemes being introduced but not working quite properly and then being amended, and then being reintroduced, because i know what it is like, you are looking for things that are going to work. Tibia is like, you are looking for things that are going to work. That are going to work. Ok, lets not aet that are going to work. Ok, lets not get into that are going to work. Ok, lets not get into the that are going to work. Ok, lets not get into the furlough that are going to work. Ok, lets. Not get into the furlough scheme. Can i not get into the furlough scheme. Can i move not get into the furlough scheme. Can i move the not get into the furlough scheme. Can i move the treasury not get into the furlough scheme. Can i move the treasury and not get into the furlough scheme. 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Part of will pass on to another committee member, part of our will pass on to another committee member, part of our remit will pass on to another committee member, part of our remit in will pass on to another committee member, part of our remit in this| member, part of our remit in this inquiry member, part of our remit in this inquiry is member, part of our remit in this inquiry is to member, part of our remit in this inquiry is to satisfy member, part of our remit in this inquiry is to satisfy that member, part of our remit in this inquiry is to satisfy that the inquiry is to satisfy that the treasury inquiry is to satisfy that the treasury responded inquiry is to satisfy that the treasury responded to inquiry is to satisfy that the treasury responded to your inquiry is to satisfy that the treasury responded to your lobbying appropriatety. Treasury responded to your lobbying appropriately. And treasury responded to your lobbying appropriately, and you treasury responded to your lobbying appropriately, and you would treasury responded to your lobbying appropriately, and you would i treasury responded to your lobbying appropriately, and you would i think| appropriately, and you would i think i appropriately, and you would i think i accept appropriately, and you would i think i accept that appropriately, and you would i think i accept that you appropriately, and you would i think i accept that you would appropriately, and you would i think i accept that you would have i accept that you would have received i accept that you would have received additional i accept that you would have received additional consideration from received additional consideration from the received additional consideration from the treasury received additional consideration from the treasury and received additional consideration from the treasury and the received additional consideration from the treasury and the bankl received additional consideration. From the treasury and the Bank Of England from the treasury and the Bank Of England by from the treasury and the Bank Of England by virtue from the treasury and the Bank Of England by virtue of from the treasury and the Bank Of England by virtue of who from the treasury and the Bank Of England by virtue of who you from the treasury and the Bank Of England by virtue of who you are. I england by virtue of who you are. Can you england by virtue of who you are. Can you quantify england by virtue of who you are. Can you quantify it, england by virtue of who you are. Can you quantify it, can england by virtue of who you are. Can you quantify it, can you england by virtue of who you are. I can you quantify it, can you qualify that extra can you quantify it, can you qualify that extra influence can you quantify it, can you qualify that extra influence that can you quantify it, can you qualify that extra influence that you can you quantify it, can you qualify that extra influence that you thinki that extra influence that you think you would that extra influence that you think you would have that extra influence that you think you would have had that extra influence that you think you would have had given that extra influence that you think you would have had given that that extra influence that you think| you would have had given that you are a you would have had given that you are a former you would have had given that you are a former prime you would have had given that you are a former Prime Minister . You would have had given that you are a former Prime Minister . First of all, i are a former Prime Minister . First of all. I would are a former Prime Minister . First of all, i would point are a former Prime Minister . First of all, i would point you are a former Prime Minister . Of all, i would point you to the evidence that Charles Roxburgh and others gave, not yet to your committee, but they effectively said they thought it was perfectly appropriate they were contacted and they did not feel under any special pressure, and they thought this was an area of business supply Chain Finance that should be looked at and they thought they could be merit if they thought they could be merit if the right scheme could be come up with them and they are all important considerations, but i would make this point, and this is one of the reasons why i thought it was appropriate in these extraordinary times when we were suffering this economic heart attack in the country, to pick up the phone, which is i knew from my time in government that quite rightly when there are economic difficulties, the treasury is in contact with every Clearing Bank and the Clearing Bank chairman and chief executives are calling up and chief executives are calling up and talking to the government and it is important that supply Chain Finance and fintechs who are these days extending credit to Small Businesses, they were able to extend their points, and it is an industry thatis their points, and it is an industry that is less well understood and has less contact. It was important as well as talking to the banks, that this conversation took place as well and that is why one of the reasons why i thought the treasury officials concluded there wasnt improper pressure. D0 concluded there wasnt improper ressure. , concluded there wasnt improper ressure. I. I. Pressure. Do you feel your involvement pressure. Do you feel your involvement led pressure. Do you feel your involvement led the pressure. Do you feel your i involvement led the treasury pressure. Do you feel your involvement led the treasury to pressure. Do you feel your involvement led the treasury to open its door involvement led the treasury to open its door to involvement led the treasury to open its door to having involvement led the treasury to open its door to having conversations its door to having conversations more its door to having conversations more readily its door to having conversations more readily than its door to having conversations more readily than it its door to having conversations more readily than it would its door to having conversations more readily than it would otherwise have done more readily than it would otherwise have done and more readily than it would otherwise have done and that more readily than it would otherwise have done and that having more readily than it would otherwise have done and that having opened i more readily than it would otherwise i have done and that having opened the door that have done and that having opened the door that it have done and that having opened the door that it got have done and that having opened the door that it got involved have done and that having opened the door that it got involved in have done and that having opened the door that it got involved in those door that it got involved in those conversations door that it got involved in those conversations in door that it got involved in those conversations in different conversations in different iterations conversations in different iterations of conversations in different iterations of your conversations in different iterations of your ideas i conversations in different iterations of your ideas around conversations in different iterations of your ideas around tome on, iterations of your ideas around tome on. For iterations of your ideas around tome on. For example. Iterations of your ideas around tome on. For example. To iterations of your ideas around tome on, for example, to a iterations of your ideas around tome on, for example, to a greater iterations of your ideas around tomei on, for example, to a greater degree than if on, for example, to a greater degree than if you on, for example, to a greater degree than if you were on, for example, to a greater degree than if you were not on, for example, to a greater degree than if you were not involved . On, for example, to a greater degree than if you were not involved . Than if you were not involved . Your than if you were not involved . Your ideas than if you were not involved . Your ideas around than if you were not involved . Your ideas around cctf. Than if you were not involved . Your ideas around cctf. Than if you were not involved . Your ideas around cct f. Yes, your decision makes your ideas around cct f. Yes, your decision makes a your ideas around cct f. Yes, your decision makes a difference your ideas around cct f. Yes, your decision makes a difference but i your ideas around cct f. Yes, your decision makes a difference but if| decision makes a difference but if you are the chancellor of the exchequer you are also taking calls from the heads of banks and building societies, and they are getting a very, and quite rightly, and this was a time of crisis and this was the reason for picking up the telephone rather than what would be better in future, sending a formal letter or e mail, it was a time of crisis and things were moving quickly and the government was introducing schemes and plans. So the persistence i will explain bike first of all supply Chain Finance is not so well understood explain bike. It did need to be properly considered and then it went through a series of iterations or proposals by greensill and a response by the government and then the government making complete its own scheme and i think to be fair and i will be frank about this, greensill made a mistake and im partly responsible for this, i dont think we got to the best possible answerfor i dont think we got to the best possible answer for how to amend the ccf and the supply Chain Finance, but if we had done that they would have been less contact and may be as quarter as much, and i think we got that wrong, but i think we would lean heavily on what the treasury officials have said, this was effectively a worthwhile conversation and an important thing to talk about, and it did not bend the treasury or the Bank Of England out of shape, and i think it was a useful process. Out of shape, and i think it was a useful process. David, thank you for those answers. Useful process. David, thank you for those answers. Now useful process. David, thank you for those answers. Now to useful process. David, thank you for those answers. Now to harriet. Thank you, and i want tojust reiterate what the chair said so our terms of reference are working at the lesson is that the treasury and its associated public bodies can derived from this whole failure of greensill and so in that context i wanted to ask questions about the Civil Service and my first question was, you mentioned him already, tom scholar. Flan was, you mentioned him already, tom scholar. ,. , was, you mentioned him already, tom scholar. ,. ,. , scholar. Can you tell is a little bit about scholar. Can you tell is a little bit about your scholar. Can you tell is a little bit about your relationship . L scholar. Can you tell is a little i bit about your relationship . Tom scholar. Can you tell is a little bit about your relationship . Tom and i worked together when i was Prime Minister. He was my number ten sherpa for the 620 meetings and with preparation for European Council meetings. He has an extraordinarily able Civil Servant, now permanent secretary to the treasury. He has done a very good job during this pandemic. find done a very good ob during this andemic. ,. , done a very good ob during this pandemic. Done a very good ob during this andemic. Y. ,. ,. , done a very good ob during this andemic. ,. ,. , pandemic. And you signed one of your text to him love pandemic. And you signed one of your text to him love dc pandemic. And you signed one of your text to him love dc which pandemic. And you signed one of your text to him love dc which was pandemic. And you signed one of your text to him love dc which was the text to him love dc which was the only one you signed off love dc. Can you just help the committee understand in particular why you used that to him, or do you have a closer or wider personal relationship outside the formal one you just described . I relationship outside the formal one you just described . You just described . I think i have seen him perhaps you just described . I think i have seen him perhaps once you just described . I think i have seen him perhaps once or you just described . I think i have seen him perhaps once or twice i you just described . I think i have seen him perhaps once or twice since leaving office. Anyone i know even at all well i tend to sign off with love dc, i dont know why, ijust do. My children tell me you dont need to sign off Text Messages at all and it is very Old Fashioned and odd but that is what i do. All and it is very oldfashioned and odd but that is what i do. All and it is very oldfashioned and odd but that is what i do. Given the treasury guidance odd but that is what i do. Given the treasury guidance to odd but that is what i do. Given the treasury guidance to civil odd but that is what i do. Given the treasury guidance to Civil Servants| treasury guidance to Civil Servants say they need to be particularly careful about conflicts of interest with people with whom they have a personal relationship, you would not describe the relationship is a personal relationship . Has i describe the relationship is a personal relationship . As i said, i have seen personal relationship . As i said, i have seen him personal relationship . As i said, i have seen him once personal relationship . As i said, i have seen him once or personal relationship . As i said, i have seen him once or twice personal relationship . As i said, i j have seen him once or twice since leaving office in a social context for a drink or suchlike, but i would make this point, which goes to these transparency rules which i think are incredibly important. Obviously, if anybody contacts an official from business elsewhere they are meant to report that and they all obviously did that in totally the proper way, but crucially what i was doing on behalf of greensill was saying when you look at this proposal, when you talk to this company, and the full knowledge that any meeting that was subsequently held would be transparently reported. So there it the idea that there was anything sort of behind the hand or surreptitious being attempted is nonsense. These meetings are transparently reported than they were not before 2010. You could use a freedom of information request to find out which ministers were meeting but because of the reforms i introduced in 2012, there is quarterly reporting and i think that is very important and i obviously knew that at the time and knew that if these meetings took place, as i hoped they would, they would be properly reported. You hoped they would, they would be preperly reported properly reported. You talk of a relationship properly reported. You talk of a relationship where properly reported. You talk of a relationship where he properly reported. You talk of a relationship where he comes i properly reported. You talk of a relationship where he comes to j properly reported. You talk of a relationship where he comes to your house for sunday lunch, something that wouldnt be captured by the rules you have described. It is not what you call a personal relationship, strictly based on, no nearly five years since you were Prime Minister, the contacts you had at the time. So you have not had lunch with him since you have been Prime Minister . I lunch with him since you have been Prime Minister . Prime minister . I think i had a drink with Prime Minister . I think i had a drink with him, Prime Minister . I think i had a drink with him, i Prime Minister . I think i had a drink with him, i gave Prime Minister . I think i had a drink with him, i gave up Prime Minister . I think i had a| drink with him, i gave up office five years ago, i think i have seen him a couple of times. But socially so that it would him a couple of times. But socially so that it would be him a couple of times. But socially so that it would be captured him a couple of times. But socially so that it would be captured by so that it would be captured by these rules, orformally minuted in these rules, orformally minuted in these rules . I these rules, or formally minuted in these rules . These rules . I dont know exactly how it is captured these rules . I dont know exactly how it is captured but these rules . I dont know exactly how it is captured but i these rules . I dont know exactly how it is captured but i suspect i these rules . I dont know exactly how it is captured but i suspect ifj how it is captured but i suspect if we talked about any business things thenit we talked about any business things then it would be captured by these rules. To, then it would be captured by these rules. U,. , then it would be captured by these rules. ,. ,. , rules. Then can you give us a flavour because rules. Then can you give us a flavour because obviously flavour because obviously everybody� s remarks that this was pretty intense pressure you are putting on the system at the time, is that sort of characteristic of your normal way of doing business . Is this something that if we were to look at your Text Messages at any period of time you would be doing a lot of contact to different parts of the government is the specific to the government is the specific to the crisis and to greensill . Trier . The crisis and to greensill . Very much specific the crisis and to greensill . Very much specific to the crisis and to greensill . Very much specific to the the crisis and to greensill . Very much specific to the crisis. The crisis and to greensill . Very much specific to the crisis. It. The crisis and to greensill . , much specific to the crisis. It is worth going back and remembering that moment when as i say there was this economic heart stop and nobody knew what was happening next on the government was desperately trying to come up with the right schemes and solutions to make your credit was there for businesses and Small Businesses and all the rest of it. And as i said, the reason behind the persistence issue is first of all, thin tech fintech is different and cannot very well understood and secondly. And cannot very well understood and secondl ,. , and cannot very well understood and secondly secondly. Sorry to interrupt but i dont have secondly. Sorry to interrupt but i dont have that secondly. Sorry to interrupt but i dont have that much secondly. Sorry to interrupt but i dont have that much time, secondly. Sorry to interrupt but i dont have that much time, very i dont have that much time, very sorry. One of the texts you exchanged with tom scholar, you said Something Like you didnt understand why the Bank Of England would be cutting rates during the pandemic. There is a bit cut out of the exchange but reading it in the way we can see it, it sort of reads as though you were being told by tom scholar there might be a Bank Of England meeting ahead of actual rate cut taking place. I england meeting ahead of actual rate cut taking place cut taking place. I have been rather baffled by this cut taking place. I have been rather baffled by this text cut taking place. I have been rather baffled by this text message cut taking place. I have been rather i baffled by this text message because obviously rate cuts are a very important thing to do at a time of difficulty. I think i am a victim of speu difficulty. I think i am a victim of spell check, i think it was about a vat cut. He spell check, i think it was about a vat cut. , �. , vat cut. He wouldnt have been tellin vat cut. He wouldnt have been telling you vat cut. He wouldnt have been telling you about vat cut. He wouldnt have been telling you about a vat cut. He wouldnt have been telling you about a vat vat cut. He wouldnt have been telling you about a vat cut. Vat cut. He wouldnt have been telling you about a vat cut. I i vat cut. He wouldnt have been i telling you about a vat cut. I think i was responding telling you about a vat cut. I think i was responding to telling you about a vat cut. I think i was responding to something telling you about a vat cut. I think| i was responding to something that was in the news but i think i might have been a victim of my own failure to spell check but i think, going back to the time, i was less sure. I think it was that. Think it was that. 0k. To help me understand think it was that. 0k. To help me understand the think it was that. 0k. To help me understand the players, think it was that. 0k. To help me understand the players, richard. Understand the players, Richard Sharpe, is that the Richard Sharpe that at the time was on the bank of England Financial Policy Committee gimmick it might be the same one, but he was i think drafted into the treasury as an adviser to rishi sunak at the time of the crisis because he had been very involved i think as a banker in the 2008 crisis. So we are talking about the former Goldman Sachs banker who was a Bank Of England member of the Financial Policy Committee until 2019, that Richard Sharpe . Ijust wanted to make sure it was the same Richard Sharpe we were talking about. Then lawrence man, the same lawrence man that work for you in 10 Downing Street is now your chief of staff . Is that a role paid for by the taxpayer . I staff . Is that a role paid for by the taxnayer . Staff . Is that a role paid for by the taxpayer . Staff . Is that a role paid for by the taxa er . ,. , the taxpayer . I am far worse it is far worse the taxpayer . I am far worse it is far worse i the taxpayer . I am far worse it is far worse i am the taxpayer . I am far worse it is far worse i am afraid, the taxpayer . I am far worse it is far worse i am afraid, he the taxpayer . I am far worse it is far worse i am afraid, he has i is far worse i am afraid, he has been working for me since 2005. He is my chief of staff and worked for me at downing street and in opposition. My office is partly supported by the former Prime Ministers grant and that goes towards roles such as responding to public enquiries on government business and answering correspondence and other things that go on even though you are not Prime Minister and i think that pays a proportion of his salary. But minister and i think that pays a proportion of his salary. But he is not a Civil Servant proportion of his salary. But he is not a Civil Servant and proportion of his salary. But he is not a Civil Servant and wouldnt i proportion of his salary. But he is| not a Civil Servant and wouldnt be covered by the Civil Service code . No, he is an employee of my office. So in your analysis and looking at the situation and the lessons that the situation and the lessons that the committee to draw in terms of the committee to draw in terms of the work of officials at the treasury, from their interaction and during this period, do you now regret that they said no . Something you pushed back on so heavily at the time. I you pushed back on so heavily at the time. ~. , you pushed back on so heavily at the time. ,. ,. , time. I think at the time they gave ve aood time. I think at the time they gave very good reasons time. I think at the time they gave very good reasons for time. I think at the time they gave very good reasons for why time. I think at the time they gave very good reasons for why the time. I think at the time they gave very good reasons for why the scheme that they introduced could not be amended in the way that we were suggesting, and crucially, as i said earlier, we took too long to get to the right answer, how to make the scheme work with supply Chain Finance and i think by the time we got to that answer conditions on the Credit Market had eased and i think it is on the evidence from the treasury, the treasury wrote a letter that not only do we think we cant quite make your scheme work but also the Credit Markets have changed and hes done therefore the situation for our customers. But i want to explain, because there is an important part of my motivation. The reason i thought idea was such a good one was because the ccff bot commercial paper debt for large uk carpets and that ease their Credit Conditions and gave them cash to invest in building a plant or whatever. What we were suggesting as if you back Supply Chains as part of the ccff every penny of that would go straight into paying the bills early of suppliers to big corporate. That is an important point because i wasnt enthusiastic about this just because we wanted to join in the ccff, i thought we had actually found something that was incredibly tailored to a bit of the market that all Public Servants would want to serve. , , serve. You were very upset when the answer serve. You were very upset when the answer came serve. You were very upset when the answer came back serve. You were very upset when the answer came back no serve. You were very upset when the answer came back no and serve. You were very upset when the answer came back no and you. Serve. You were very upset when i the answer came back no and you said i am going to call absolutely everybody about this, so given what you know now, are you pleased or are you know now, are you pleased or are you unhappy still about that decision to say no . The you unhappy still about that decision to say no . The reason for bein decision to say no . The reason for being baffled decision to say no . The reason for being baffled was decision to say no . The reason for being baffled was twofold. Decision to say no . The reason for being baffled was twofold. One i decision to say no . The reason for| being baffled was twofold. One was that this class of assets was included in 2008 and i thought that if it worked in 2008 it seems rather odd that we are not doing it now, and i was surprised by that, and also i thought that by the time we got to the final on something really tailored to british firms and Supply Chains, putting that money into Small Businesses, i thought we had a great idea, but looking back, ultimately i think the treasury gave a very good explanation for why, although the scheme as they put it could have great merit and could help a lot, it was too different to what the scheme they had set up was originally intended to do. And by the time we got to the end of this process, and greensill made a mistake by taking too long to get through that process, by the time we got to the end of it Credit Markets had eased up in any event. And had eased up in any event. And finall , had eased up in any event. And finally. In had eased up in any event. And finally. In your had eased up in any event. And finally, in your message to Richard Sharpe you said, good guy but can be on the cautious side, who are you referring to . I on the cautious side, who are you referring to . Referring to . I think i was referring referring to . I think i was referring to referring to . I think i was referring to giles referring to . I think i was l referring to giles roxburgh referring to . I think i was referring to giles roxburgh but i was making a general point. I am a huge fan of our impartial, professional Civil Service and i think throughout this pandemic they have done an extraordinaryjob. The point i often make to people and it is part of being a minister, as there can be an in built bias against doing something because of course if you are a Civil Servant there is a worry about taking a step, doing something different, doing something, so it is important for ministers to ask themselves, are we being creative and inventive enough . Did we being creative and inventive enourh . , , we being creative and inventive enourh . ,. ,. , enough . Did giles roxburgh and tom scholar come enough . Did giles roxburgh and tom scholar come to enough . Did giles roxburgh and tom scholar come to the enough . Did giles roxburgh and tom scholar come to the right enough . Did giles roxburgh and tom scholar come to the right decision . I scholar come to the right decision . I think they came to a justifiable decision and it was an interesting process and i think we took too long to get to the right answer and that is partly what explains the fact there were a number of Text Messages and e mails. A lot of them were sending the same brief to a number of different people making these arguments. Of different people making these arguments arguments. Unfortunately i have taken too long arguments. Unfortunately i have taken too long as arguments. Unfortunately i have taken too long as well arguments. Unfortunately i have taken too long as well thank. Arguments. Unfortunately i have l taken too long as well thank you very much, harriet. Thank you. It is the next big scandal waiting to happen. It is an issue that frankly crosses party lines and has tainted our politics for too long. It is an issue that exposes the far too cosy relationship between politics, government, business and money. I relationship between politics, government, business and money. Lam talking about lobbying and we all know how it works. The lunches, the flights, the hospitality. The quiet word in your ear. The ex ministers and x advisers for hire helping big business find the right way to make its way. Mr cameron, do you remember those words . I do, cameron, do you remember those words . Ido, i cameron, do you remember those words . I do, i made them in 2010 and he made two very important changes. You have already mentioned those. Do you understand the irony of using them given that many others believe them given that many others believe the court the picture own behaviour with greensill . Let the court the picture own behaviour with greensill . With greensill . Let me explain because i with greensill . Let me explain because i havent with greensill . Let me explain because i havent mentioned l with greensill . Let me explain i because i havent mentioned one with greensill . Let me explain because i havent mentioned one of the changes we have made because it was important. When i made those remarks that have just been a lobbying scandal involving a firm approached by a journalist pretending to be a journalist in the lobbying firm said we can get you into ministers, get you in to see people and nobody needs to know who you are lobbying on behalf of, and so the change that the lobbying act brought in, i know it is criticised, but the change was to make sure that multiclient lobbyists had to register who their clients were. That was an important change because it put a stop to that problem, and if you combine it with the issue of having to report the meetings that ministers have, you have got two very valuable tools in making sure people can see who is lobbying who and on whose behalf. And in my interactions with greensill and the government, i absolutely knew that if the meetings i wanted to take place that take place they would be properly reported on and everybody would know about them and that is absolutely right. Mr would know about them and that is absolutely right. Would know about them and that is absolutely right. Mr cameron, i am ever so sorry. Absolutely right. Mr cameron, i am ever so sorry, but absolutely right. Mr cameron, i am ever so sorry, but this absolutely right. Mr cameron, i am ever so sorry, but this is absolutely right. Mr cameron, i am ever so sorry, but this is a absolutely right. Mr cameron, i am ever so sorry, but this is a meeting j ever so sorry, but this is a meeting to ask you questions rather than to allow you to talk for the next two hours. You had the enormous privilege of being the Prime Minister of our great country. You are one of only five people post war to have been re elected to lead our government. Do you not feel that you have demeaned yourself and your position by whatsapping in around whitehall by selling debt to investors. I whitehall by selling debt to investors whitehall by selling debt to investors. ,. , , investors. I worked with a business that i hoped investors. I worked with a business that i hoped would investors. I worked with a business that i hoped would be investors. I worked with a business that i hoped would be a investors. I worked with a business that i hoped would be a uk investors. I worked with a business that i hoped would be a uk fintech| that i hoped would be a uk Fintech Industry and i wanted to help that company grow and expand and i put to the government what i genuinely believed to be a good idea for how to get money into the hands of Small Businesses and get their bills paid early. I said that looking back im now looking forward, ex Prime Minister saad and a very important and different position and so a simple letter or e mail would be important, but we were in very different circumstances when covid happened. But different circumstances when covid ha ened. �. , different circumstances when covid haened. �. , different circumstances when covid ha ened. �. , i. , ~ different circumstances when covid ha ened. �. ,. ,. , happened. But do you not think that ou are happened. But do you not think that you are presenting happened. But do you not think that you are presenting a happened. But do you not think that you are presenting a business happened. But do you not think that you are presenting a business that l you are presenting a business that had fundamental financial problems and the efforts were in order to fill the hole in that business rather than helping the british taxpayer . Mr; rather than helping the british taxa er . G. , taxpayer . My interaction with the government taxpayer . My interaction with the government is taxpayer . My interaction with the government is because taxpayer . My interaction with the government is because i taxpayer . My interaction with the | government is because i genuinely believe these were good ideas to help Small Businesses. Of course, this business went into administration, it failed, we need to learn the lessons from that. And i look forward to reading what your committee has to say about it. But what i dont accept is that it was a business that was predetermined to fail. At its heart was a simple and goodidea fail. At its heart was a simple and good idea which was to go to Large Corporate Companies like airbus. You dont believe it was a ponzi scheme because that is what lord minor told us. Ii scheme because that is what lord minor told us. Minor told us. If you take the airbus example minor told us. If you take the airbus example which minor told us. If you take the airbus example which was i minor told us. If you take the airbus example which was a l minor told us. If you take the airbus example which was a leading client, we were paying 25,000 suppliers instantly, getting cash into Tens Of Thousands of Small Businesses, and then airbus would pay back greensill and a bond would be floated in the meantime. That idea of using technology in Capital Markets to help Small Businesses i think is a good idea. B5 markets to help Small Businesses i think is a good idea. Markets to help Small Businesses i think is a good idea. As recently as tuesda , think is a good idea. As recently as tuesday. Mr think is a good idea. As recently as tuesday, mr greensill, think is a good idea. As recently as tuesday, mr greensill, who think is a good idea. As recently as tuesday, mr greensill, who you i think is a good idea. As recently as i tuesday, mr greensill, who you seem to be painting as a reincarnation of the late mother teresa, told the committee that this was a great business only brought down by unreasonable and greedy insurance companies. We now know that 90 of greensills business was lending against transactions that have never happened, may never happen and with companies that dont even know that they are involved, and then selling it on as low risk. Do you still believe that the Business Model was a good one . A good one . What i believe is that the key idea a good one . What i believe is that the key idea of a good one . What i believe is that the key idea of supply a good one . What i believe is that the key idea of supply chain the key idea of supply Chain Finance, going to Big Companies and saying that we will pay your suppliers early, get cash into those businesses, that is a good idea, and the companies greensill was working with Like Vodafone, astrazeneca and airbus, big responsible employers, big Important Companies. You know what a persoective big Important Companies. You know what a perspective receivable big Important Companies. You know what a perspective receivable as . Big Important Companies. You know what a perspective receivable as . I. What a perspective receivable as . I have listened very carefully to the evidence over previous days and the concept of prospective. Lets deal with future receivables which i think is the correct term, and future receivables were involved in the supply Chain Finance scheme that i happen to set up and government which is the way that the nhs under the scheme, pharmacists were paid early. The scheme, pharmacists were paid earl ~. , early. When during the height of the crisis you early. When during the height of the crisis you are early. When during the height of the crisis you are bothering the crisis you are bothering ministers and Civil Servants, did you know that 90 of greensills business represented unsecured loans to high risk borrowers and half the time without any invoice whatsoever . That is not a figure i recognise. I listen to mr greensills evidence on tuesday when he talked about future receivables being perhaps 20 of the business and i think when it comes to future receivables it is important to recognise that in the case of the nhs and the pharmacy scheme. , case of the nhs and the pharmacy scheme. ,. , i. , scheme. Can i ust ask you a question h scheme. Can i ust ask you a question about scheme. Can ijust ask you a question about the scheme. Can ijust ask you a question about the nhs, scheme. Can ijust ask you a i question about the nhs, turning scheme. Can ijust ask you a question about the nhs, turning now to greensills proposals for our nhs and that named to pay doctors and nurses daily or weekly in advance, do you accept your lobbying of the nhs wasnt for its health but for the health of greensills Balance Sheet . I the health of greensills Balance Sheet . , � ,. ,. , sheet . I wouldnt accept that for one second sheet . I wouldnt accept that for one second because sheet . I wouldnt accept that for one second because the sheet . I wouldnt accept that for one second because the whole i sheet . I wouldnt accept that for one second because the whole concept of earning the nhs was that it wouldnt be notjust free to the employee but to the nhs itself. Why i thought this was so attractive, i remember probably answering questions from you about the evils of Payday Lending, and the idea that staff on the nhs could draw down their salary as they earn it rather than having to wait until the end of the month, i thought that could go some way to ending the use of Payday Lending. Mr some way to ending the use of payday lendinr. ~. ,. , , � , some way to ending the use of payday lendinr. ~. ,. , , 2. , lending. Mr cameron, greensills own administration lending. Mr cameron, greensills own administration documents lending. Mr cameron, greensills own administration documents make lending. Mr cameron, greensills own | administration documents make clear, and i quote, the commercial rationale for providing these Services Without profit was to create Critical Mass to enable to sell to corporate entities to generate revenues and to provide cross selling opportunities to the wider group, sol cross selling opportunities to the wider group, so i ask you again, do you now accept that your lobbying of the nhs was about a commercial incentive for greensill . I the nhs was about a commercial incentive for greensill . Incentive for greensill . I dont acce t incentive for greensill . I dont accept that incentive for greensill . I dont accept that. Is incentive for greensill . I dont accept that. Is nothing incentive for greensill . I dont| accept that. Is nothing sacred . Incentive for greensill . I dont accept that. Is nothing sacred . From greensills point accept that. Is nothing sacred . From greensills point of accept that. Is nothing sacred . From greensills point of view accept that. Is nothing sacred . From greensills point of view this accept that. Is nothing sacred . From greensills point of view this was greensills point of view this was part of its corporate social responsibility, saying to the nhs that this is going to be free not just to the doctors and nurses but three to the nhs trust as well. find three to the nhs trust as well. And of course it three to the nhs trust as well. And of course it left three to the nhs trust as well. And of course it left greensill free to sell to corporate entities and generate revenues and to provide cross selling opportunities to the wider group. Not my words, greensills words. Thank you. Thanks for that, greensills words. Thank you. Thanks for that. And greensills words. Thank you. Thanks for that, and going greensills words. Thank you. Thanks for that, and going to greensills words. Thank you. Thanks for that, and going to go greensills words. Thank you. Thanks for that, and going to go to greensills words. Thank you. Thanks for that, and going to go to julie for that, and going to go tojulie now for that, and going to go to julie now. ~ for that, and going to go to julie now. , ,. , for that, and going to go to julie now. ~ ,. , y for that, and going to go to julie now. , i. ,. Now. Thank you very much, good afternoon. Now. Thank you very much, good afternoon. Mr now. Thank you very much, good afternoon, mr cameron. Now. Thank you very much, good afternoon, mr cameron. I now. Thank you very much, good afternoon, mr cameron. I would| now. Thank you very much, good i afternoon, mr cameron. Iwould like afternoon, mr cameron. I would like to go back and explored in detail something refer to in your Opening Statement and i think is something of a thread throughout the session, which is your particular position there is a former Prime Minister. Former Prime Ministers are quite a rare and exceptional breed. When we heard from lord person a couple weeks ago from this committee, he said that generally former Prime Ministers dont generally contact the treasury, it is quite exceptional. They might send checkups or records, issues relating to your time in office, but actually to your time in office, but actually to talk about policy to lobby is quite exceptional. Would you accept that it really is quite an exceptional course of action that he took over this period . Took over this period . These were exceptional took over this period . These were exceptional times took over this period . These were exceptional times when took over this period . These were exceptional times when business. Took over this period . These were i exceptional times when business was uniquely threatened, no man knew what would happen to the economy, and i knew from my own experience that the government was considering what sort of loan support schemes, what sort of loan support schemes, what sort of loan support schemes, what sort of Loan Guarantee schemes, woodwork, so these extraordinary times. I think it would be better for an ex Prime Minister in future, and i will certainly abide by this, if you are contacting a government about any commercial issue, then this would be a very rare event, to send one formal letter or one form or e mail. But i think these were exceptional times. Or email. But i think these were exceptional times. Or email. But i think these were exceptional times. Lord macpherson also said, exceptional times. Lord macpherson also said. For exceptional times. Lord macpherson also said, for example, exceptional times. Lord macpherson also said, for example, if exceptional times. Lord macpherson also said, for example, if a exceptional times. Lord macpherson also said, for example, if a former. Also said, for example, if a former Prime Minister did contact government departments, it would usually be potentially only broader point of policy, but isnt the point here that the point of policy you are talking about was something in which you had a very specific economic interest, as being referenced previously . It was something referenced previously . It was something i referenced previously . It was something i was referenced previously . It was something i was passionate l referenced previously . It was something i was passionate about because i thought it could really help Small Businesses and Supply Chains in the united kingdom, so thatis chains in the united kingdom, so that is why i was so keen to contact the government. As i said, i know what it is like when youre searching for things that will help Small Business, when Credit Markets dry up and there are difficulties in the economy and i thought we had a very good answer. I was very keen for it to be to, because the banks are quite rightly on speed dial in the treasury. Everybody knows when trouble set. Lord minor said he would often be talking to chairman and chief executives every week and that sort of situation and it is important to recognise that changes were you now have Fintech Firms and Financial Institutions extending huge amounts of credit to Small Businesses, very important to have in that conversation as well. [30 businesses, very important to have in that conversation as well. Do you acce t in that conversation as well. Do you accept that in that conversation as well. Do you accept that you in that conversation as well. Do you accept that you are in that conversation as well. Do you accept that you are different in that conversation as well. Do you accept that you are different to in that conversation as well. Do you accept that you are different to a i accept that you are different to a bank chief executive and do you think that is a different circumstance and did you ever consider the impact that would have on the people receiving the calls and the letters and e mails and so on . fii and the letters and emails and so on . ,. , on . Of course, i thought very carefully on . Of course, i thought very carefully before on . Of course, i thought very carefully before picking i on . Of course, i thought very carefully before picking up i on . Of course, i thought very| carefully before picking up the telephone and i thought the circumstances warranted it because they were unique. I have reflected since then and thought in future it would be much better, one single communication, but i think these were exceptional times and that is why i think it was acceptable to do what i did, and it is very important to listen to Nick Macpherson, i have Great Respect for him but im sure you also hear from tom scholar and giles roxburgh, that have said in their evidence that they did not feel improper pressure, they started right to consider the sort of scheme could be made to work, and the Bank Of England have pretty much said the same thing sol of england have pretty much said the same thing so i dont think they were bent out of shape and terms of their resources and the time they spent on this. I have said we took too long to get the right answer and that was frustrating for me, but they have said that talking to business was part of what they did. And you said quite rightly, we all remember it. You have been at the dispatch box, on the receiving end of lobbying and ideas and so on, so to what extent do you think it is fair that someone is a former Prime Minister with the range of experience, the knowledge of the system, these contacts and so on, that you should have that same level of access and that same ability to influence and lobby . I of access and that same ability to influence and lobby . Of access and that same ability to influence and lobby . I think it is a ve aood influence and lobby . I think it is a very good question influence and lobby . I think it is a very good question and influence and lobby . I think it is a very good question and as influence and lobby . I think it is a very good question and as i influence and lobby . I think it is a very good question and as i said i influence and lobby . I think it is a i very good question and as i said my Opening Statement maybe there is a case for a longer of time before there is any contact between an ex Prime Minister and the department. I have also noticed gordon brown said there should be no contact whatsoever on a commercial issue. I would stop one short from that because i could potentially imagine gordon brown orjohn major being chairman of a big bank or British Telecom or some strategically important british company, and i think the idea of there being no contact then between a former politician in the government wouldnt make sense. For instance, as a Prime Minister are used to meet very regularly with the chairman of bp. I think that is right. You have strategically Important Companies that do need to talk to the government and while it is very important we regulate lobbying properly, while it is very important we record meetings transparently and we record meetings transparently and we look at all those rules, we mustnt get to a situation where the Public Sector is cut off from the private sector. Yes, ex Prime Minister is a different and we need to think and act differently and there are lessons to be learned, i completely accept that, but i wouldnt go quite as gordon brown, though i agree with him on many things. 50 though i agree with him on many thins. , though i agree with him on many thin. S ,. , though i agree with him on many thins. ,. ,. , things. So is it fair, would you acce t things. So is it fair, would you accept the things. So is it fair, would you accept the criticism things. So is it fair, would you accept the criticism to things. So is it fair, would you accept the criticism to say i things. So is it fair, would you | accept the criticism to say that things. So is it fair, would you i accept the criticism to say that you are putting forward some potential solutions and lessons to be learning from this, that if you had perhaps been more self aware and cognisant of potentially the impact of the lobbying from a former Prime Minister that we wouldnt have to be looking at changing the rules at this point, or more rules . I would sa two this point, or more rules . I would say two things this point, or more rules . I would say two things to this point, or more rules . I would say two things to that. This point, or more rules . I would say two things to that. The this point, or more rules . I would say two things to that. The first i this point, or more rules . I would say two things to that. The first isj say two things to that. The first is that clearly these Civil Servants were not intimidated by getting a call from er by looking at this proposal from call from er by looking at this proposalfrom dealing call from er by looking at this proposal from dealing with greensill and the fintech sector. If you look at what they said to the Public Accounts Committee, they thought it was appropriate and they got on and looked at the scheme. I think that is the first thing. And as i say, ex Prime Minister is are different, and i think we should be looking at the rules just because there is no harm in trying to work out, is there more you could do. I think aqaba has a process i have been through a number of different appointments but i can see an argument that for an ex Prime Minister, you have to make choices when you leave office and they have made a series of choices about the charities i have worked with and the businesses i support. Perhaps there is a role for a sort of committee of some former permanent secretaries, people with great business experience to give advice on that, because there is not really a road map for the next Prime Minister, perhaps particularly for the younger one who doesntjust want perhaps particularly for the younger one who doesnt just want to perhaps particularly for the younger one who doesntjust want to be on the board of some big bank and make the board of some big bank and make the odd speech around the world but who wants to get stuck in and help the business grow and expand, perhaps there could be our role for that sort of committee to give that sort of advice and perhaps i would have found that beneficial. Flan sort of advice and perhaps i would have found that beneficial. Can i ust turn have found that beneficial. Can i just turn to have found that beneficial. Can i just turn to the have found that beneficial. Can i just turn to the relationship i just turn to the relationship between yourself and Lex Greensill during this period. You have mentioned some strategic objectives that you felt you had in joining greensill. Could you just give us a feel for how much direction on a day to day basis, a week to week basis, you had from greensill, both in what we might call normal times and then as it became more of a crisis moment . When i was contracted to work with the business for a number of days every year, and i come to be exceeded that because i was enthusiastic by what the company was doing, i probably talked to Lex Greensill once a week, and the sort of work we were doing was trying to win new clients, whether in the uk or elsewhere, and we were looking at how to expand best into new territories, and i think he said in his evidence that when i was working for the business we increased by about 50, hundred, the number of countries we operated in, and i would try and help him with some of the key relationships with suppliers, Companies Like oracle were crucial to the way the business work, so it was really helping with expansion as well as the more traditional advisory role about geopolitical and other advice, so thatis geopolitical and other advice, so that is the sort of, it was a Good Relationship and i enjoyed working with the company and im extremely sorry it has come to this end. Clearly as he said, there were faults with the business and there were vulnerabilities that were not properly addressed but i repeat, we must not get into the situation in this country where just because a business goes into administration, it doesnt mean everything about it was wrong and it doesnt mean the whole thing was a giant fraud, and there were i think very important parts to supply Chain Finance that can have a real social benefit and thatis can have a real social benefit and that is why ijoined the company in the first place. That is why i joined the company in the first place the first place. During the crisis eriod, the first place. During the crisis period. Would the first place. During the crisis period, would lex the first place. During the crisis period, would Lex Greensill the first place. During the crisis period, would Lex Greensill sayj the first place. During the crisis i period, would Lex Greensill say to you, would you phone up rishi sunak, text him, get onto the treasury and to matt hancock, would he direct you and give you particular missions and objectives in that way . The conversations objectives in that way . The conversations we objectives in that way . Inez conversations we had, objectives in that way . Ii;e conversations we had, i objectives in that way . ii9 conversations we had, i think started with the chairman of the Bank Of England making the remark about the importance of supporting Supply Chains during the pandemic, and in one of our conversations i said i would try and find out more about what was meant by that. When it came to the issue of our proposal to improve the ccff with a targeted idea, because we thought the money would go to small and medium sized businesses, it was a question of, what is the best way of trying to get this in front of government, thatis get this in front of government, that is what i helped with. I helped with that because it was a moment of crisis and i believed it was a good idea. ~. ,. , idea. Would we be characterising that as, really, idea. Would we be characterising that as, really, you idea. Would we be characterising that as, really, you made idea. Would we be characterising that as, really, you made the i that as, really, you made the judgments on who to lobby and when to lobby them and how often to lobby them, for example . I had discussions with him and them, for example . I had discussions with him and a them, for example . I had discussions with him and a few them, for example . I had discussions with him and a few others. Them, for example . I had discussions with him and a few others. So them, for example . I had discussions with him and a few others. So i with him and a few others. Sol could properly understand how the ccff was meant to work and what our proposal would do to improve it and how best to get government to at least consider it. Least consider it. Thank you very much, i least consider it. Thank you very much. Ithink least consider it. Thank you very much, i think im least consider it. Thank you very much, i think im out least consider it. Thank you very much, i think im out of least consider it. Thank you very much, i think im out of time. I least consider it. Thank you very i much, i think im out of time. Thank you, mr cameron. Much, i think im out of time. Thank you. Mr cameron much, i think im out of time. Thank you, mr cameron. Thank you, mr cameron. Emma, please. Thank ou, you, mr cameron. Emma, please. Thank you. Check. You, mr cameron. Emma, please. Thank you. Check. Good you, mr cameron. Emma, please. Thank you, check, good afternoon you, mr cameron. Emma, please. Thank you, check, good afternoon mr you, check, good afternoon mr cameron. A couple of quick questions, has the chancellor published every text or whats up a message he sent you in relation to greensill . Whatsapp. I message he sent you in relation to greensill . Whatsapp. Message he sent you in relation to greensill . Whatsapp. I believe he has, es. Greensill . Whatsapp. I believe he has. Yes. Did greensill . Whatsapp. I believe he has. Yes did you greensill . Whatsapp. I believe he has, yes. Did you and greensill . Whatsapp. I believe he has, yes. Did you and the greensill . Whatsapp. I believe he has, yes. Did you and the chancellor| has, yes. Did you and the chancellor seak has, yes. Did you and the chancellor speak over has, yes. Did you and the chancellor speak over the has, yes. Did you and the chancellor speak over the phone has, yes. Did you and the chancellor speak over the phone about has, yes. Did you and the chancellor speak over the phone about ccff . I speak over the phone about ccff . Yes. ,. , speak over the phone about ccff . Yes. ,. , speak over the phone about ccff . Yes. , j~. , yes. Did you speak on the 18th of ma . I yes. Did you speak on the 18th of may . I would yes. Did you speak on the 18th of may . I would have yes. Did you speak on the 18th of may . I would have to yes. Did you speak on the 18th of may . I would have to check i yes. Did you speak on the 18th of may . I would have to check the l may . I would have to check the records but may . I would have to check the records but we may . I would have to check the records but we definitely may . I would have to check the records but we definitely did i may . I would have to check the i records but we definitely did speak a couple of times, but it is all in the return i sent to the committee. What was discussed . What was discussed . What i was discussin what was discussed . What i was discussing with what was discussed . What i was discussing with him what was discussed . What i was discussing with him from what was discussed . What i was | discussing with him from memory what was discussed . What i was i discussing with him from memory was my contention that the ccff was a brilliant idea because it was helping large british based corporate to have access to cash and credit at a time of difficulty and how including supply Chain Finance bonds in that facility would be even more effective because every penny of that money would go into Small Businesses so i was very passionate about it and i thought it was a good idea. I was drawing on my experience as Prime Minister when some of the schemes did not work as you would hope. {in schemes did not work as you would ho e. , schemes did not work as you would hoe. ,. ,. , hope. On that conversation on the 18th of may. Hope. On that conversation on the 18th of may, work hope. On that conversation on the 18th of may, work the hope. On that conversation on the 18th of may, work the treasury i 18th of may, work the treasury officials dialled in or was this a private discussion . Were the. I dont know, you would have to ask the chancellor, there was no one listening at my end but there might have been at his end. Earth; listening at my end but there might have been at his end. Have been at his end. Early on you said something have been at his end. Early on you said something that have been at his end. Early on you said something that you have been at his end. Early on you said something that you did have been at his end. Early on you said something that you did not i said something that you did not believe that the rules of the treasury were bent out of shape with the time and resources, do you accept that 56 lobbying attempts of ministers and officials during a pandemic when as you have already said the economy was on life support and the treasury was working 24 7, we heard evidence earlier, that time lobbying means time is not spread to other areas of need and indeed region is indeed of the country, have you never considered that you may be went over the top . I have you never considered that you may be went over the top . May be went over the top . I would draw heavily may be went over the top . I would draw heavily on may be went over the top . I would draw heavily on what may be went over the top . I would draw heavily on what charles i draw heavily on what Charles Roxburgh said at the Public Accounts Committee when he said in answer to a question, that was not a disproportionate use of time at all, and had the proposal proved workable it could have been a way to support Small Businesses at a time of crisis. He also makes the point that the proposal ultimately resulted in a consultation with ten other supply Chain Finance companies and that it was a useful exercise. I definitely accept that one of the reasons for the persistence was that we took too long to get the best possible scheme to the government and that was our fault for which we should take responsibility but the Civil Servants from what i have heard that they have said this was an interesting proposal and it is their job to engage with business but it did not take up a disproportionate amount of time and if it could have worked would have been a good exercise. ~ ,. ,. , exercise. With respect i was not askinr exercise. With respect i was not asking what exercise. With respect i was not asking what you exercise. With respect i was not asking what you believe exercise. With respect i was not asking what you believe the i exercise. With respect i was not i asking what you believe the opinion ofthe asking what you believe the opinion of the Civil Servants asking what you believe the opinion of the Civil Servants to asking what you believe the opinion of the Civil Servants to be, asking what you believe the opinion of the Civil Servants to be, i asking what you believe the opinion of the Civil Servants to be, i was i of the Civil Servants to be, i was asking what your opinion is, do you believe that 56 attempts of lobbying during a pandemic using treasury ministers and officials time that could have been spent elsewhere it was a useful use of their time . Im asking whether you have reflected on it and what you think. I asking whether you have reflected on it and what you think. It and what you think. I have reflected it and what you think. I have reflected on it and what you think. I have reflected on it it and what you think. I have reflected on it and it and what you think. I have reflected on it and i it and what you think. I have reflected on it and i think. It and what you think. I have reflected on it and i think it | it and what you think. I have i reflected on it and i think it was a time of extraordinary crisis and so it was a time when i think it was appropriate to use phone and text and e mailand appropriate to use phone and text and e mail and letter but in future one of the lessons i take away is that Prime Ministers should only ever use a letter or e mail and should restrict themselves far more but the reason for quoting the Civil Servants is, in a way, that is the answer to the question. If they are saying we were not putting disproportionate time and we were not bent out of shape, i think that is a significant and important point. Ii is a significant and important oint. ,. , i. Point. If the chancellor tell you what the alternative point. If the chancellor tell you what the alternative was point. If the chancellor tell you what the alternative was that i point. If the chancellor tell you | what the alternative was that he pushed his officials to explore on your behalf . Pushed his officials to explore on your behalf . From memory i think that is the treasury your behalf . From memory i think that is the treasury and your behalf . From memory i think that is the treasury and the your behalf . From memory i think that is the treasury and the bank. Your behalf . From memory i think. That is the treasury and the Bank Of England made a proposalfor how supply Chain Finance could be included in the ccff and they put that to greensill and others but greensill and others did not think it would work in the form that was put forward, so this is why, one of the reasons there were these contacts, it was an long process, many proposal, it went through a long set of faces and that is set out in the evidence from the Bank Of England and the treasury long set of phases. What the text refers to is the governments proposal back to the supply Chain Finance providers. On the 3rd of april you received bad news that the treasury did not intend to revise the terms of the ccff and from what we can tell on the same date you sent a whatsapp to the same date you sent a whatsapp to the chancellor and you e mailed the governor of the Bank Of England and also texted michael gove and tom scholar, and their work two cores and 16 written communications on a single day there were two calls. All of these people would have had other did things to do on a time of a rapidly unfolding crisis, was this appropriate . This a rapidly unfolding crisis, was this appropriate . A rapidly unfolding crisis, was this appropriate . This was a time when the government appropriate . This was a time when the government was appropriate . This was a time when the government was looking appropriate . This was a time when the government was looking at i appropriate . This was a time when i the government was looking at what schemes can actually get cash to businesses and work and we believe we had one of those games and we thought it was worth a proper look and of course it went through in and of course it went through in a process where they came back with a process where they came back with a proposal, and so standing back from it and looking back at it now, i do understand that former Prime Ministers have got to be careful about what they do and be measures they take and in normal times, if ever there is an occasion and i doubt there will be, but if ever there is an occasion when a business has a commercial proposition to put the government, it would be a single letter or e mail. The government, it would be a single letter or email. Letter or email. Final point, earlier arent letter or email. Final point, earlier arent you letter or email. Final point, earlier arent you said letter or email. Final point, earlier arent you said that i letter or email. Final point, i earlier arent you said that you usually put love dc on the bottom of your Text Messages, so this shows no particular closeness with tom scholar but on the other messages it does not appear, like on the ones to michael gove and rishi sunak. So what about the relationship you had with tom scholar . I what about the relationship you had with tom scholar . With tom scholar . I think i have accurately with tom scholar . I think i have accurately reflected with tom scholar . I think i have accurately reflected the accurately reflected the relationship with him and im happy to check up how many times i met him socially since i left office in 2016. It is two, i think. Two in five years is not a huge amount. I dont know rishi sunak that went well, we were in parliament together for a period of time, and i dont know him that well, but i can produce a list of friends and relations who have love dc on the end of their Text Messages. But ma be end of their Text Messages. But maybe not end of their Text Messages. But maybe not to end of their Text Messages. But maybe not to michael gove. Thank you, jeff. Thank you, chair. Idols . You, jeff. Thank you, chair. Now to felicity you, jeff. Thank you, chair. Now to felicity. Good you, jeff. Thank you, chair. Now to felicity. Good afternoon, you, jeff. Thank you, chair. Now to felicity. Good afternoon, good i you, jeff. Thank you, chair. Now| to felicity. Good afternoon, good to see ou. To felicity. Good afternoon, good to see you you to felicity. Good afternoon, good to see you. You mentioned to felicity. Good afternoon, good to see you. You mentioned in to felicity. Good afternoon, good to see you. You mentioned in your see you. You mentioned in your opening remarks that you thought carefully before taking the role at greensill, and that you took advice from a wide number of people. Can i ask you specifically what Due Diligence you did on greensill before accepting the role and how familiar you were with their Business Model . I did think about it very carefully. I Business Model . I did think about it very carefully very carefully. I consulted a couple of very senior very carefully. I consulted a couple of very Senior Business very carefully. I consulted a couple of very Senior Business leaders, i of very Senior Business leaders, people ive worked with when in government, and i spoke to two financial analysts and asked their view about the company and i met with notjust Lex Greensill but with the chairman of the company, someone who has 30 years of experience in british banking and finance. I met with the venture capitalistjohn gorman who had originally invested in Lex Greensill and was working with him still. And i asked lots of questions of the company, about every aspect of the business, from the role of insurance to the way the credits and other funds work and the list of customers, but to be frank, one of the things i took the greatest comfort from was General Atlantic who i hugely admire as an investor, they had just invested in the business, and this company had as customers people Like Vodafone and astrazeneca and had partnerships with Companies Like Credit Suisse and oracle and others, so it was a mixture of all those things, but i certainly did do quite a lot of Due Diligence and asked a lot of questions and tried to make sure i understood the core of what the business was doing. I0 understood the core of what the business was doing. Understood the core of what the business was doing. To me there were several red flags business was doing. To me there were several red flags about business was doing. To me there were several red flags about this several red flags about this business, even back then, one was the exposure that it had to the family of companies and the interdependence between greensill and gupta and his companies and clearly tim hayward had been in the press a month before injuly 2018, so were you aware of those issues and if they give you concern at the time . , , and if they give you concern at the time . ,. ,. , and if they give you concern at the time . ,. ,. ,. ,. , and if they give you concern at the time . ,. ,. ,. ,. , time . Yes, of course, i was aware of them, time . Yes, of course, i was aware of them. And time . Yes, of course, i was aware of them. And i time . Yes, of course, i was aware of them, and i think time . Yes, of course, i was aware of them, and i think taking time . Yes, of course, i was aware of them, and i think taking them them, and i think taking them separately, on the gam issue, that was reported widely in the newspapers and i asked a lot of questions about it and got a lot of reassurance about it. A complex issue but ultimately one of the funds that was closed, or the investors receive their money back, and there was a gamma greensill continue to operate successfully throughout the time i was working for the company. Credit suisse funds at the time were expanding so one of the key questions for the company was, have you got the distribution of potential for these assets you are creating from financial, the finances you are providing to Small Businesses and the list of banks that were buying these was going and therefore i ask questions i thought was important and i thought i got satisfactory answers. The issue of client concentration and specifically on gupta and 6 l 6, this is something i asked about beforejoining and asked this is something i asked about before joining and asked questions about when i was there, and the reassurance i always got was that there was a plan to deal with this concentration and over time reduce this concentration but obviously thatis this concentration but obviously that is not something that happened satisfactorily and i think you heard that from mr greensill when he gave his evidence, that is an important concern. Did his evidence, that is an important concern. ,. , concern. Did your view of the company concern. Did your view of the Company Change concern. Did your view of the Company Change over concern. Did your view of the Company Change over time . | concern. Did your view of the i Company Change over time . Was concern. Did your view of the Company Change over time . Was there anything that concerns you over time . Bi anything that concerns you over time . . , time . At the time i oined the com an time . At the time i oined the company in h time . At the time i oined the company in august i time . At the time i joined the company in august 2019, i time . At the time i joined the | company in august 2019, after time . At the time i joined the i company in august 2019, after the General Atlantic investment, where they had done an enormous amount of Due Diligence, and then during the time i was working for the company there was the big softbank investment, and i note softbank is not everybody� s cup of tea, but they are a heavyweight investor and do a lot of Due Diligence. The number of partnerships and customers seems to be growing in a healthy way. As i tried to say to one of your colleagues, my enthusiasm for this business was very simply based on the idea that if you team up with large corporate you pay their suppliers early and you are pumping money into Small Businesses and anyone who goes anywhere near Small Business knows that cash flow and credit and working capital are absolutely crucial to their success and survival and that is why i believe this was a worthwhile business. And so the more we could add those big corporate clients, many of which were added while i was working for the company, i thought the stronger the company would be, but clearly this company has failed, and if you work for a company that goes into administration you look back and you think of all the different choices you could have made. And of course im doing that. But during the period i was working for it there were good signs of strengthening but there was this issue of gupta which i dont think was adequately dealt with and that became a looming problem. Clearly the business became a looming problem. Clearly the Business Model became a looming problem. Clearly the Business Model here became a looming problem. Clearly the Business Model here was i became a looming problem. Clearly the Business Model here was to became a looming problem. Clearly i the Business Model here was to have the Business Model here was to have the receivables, package them up with Credit Insurance and then on sell them to Credit Suisse Asset Management and to investors, and so were you aware in september that tokio marine had decided not to renew the Credit Insurance because again that would have been a flag to me that the Business Model was in realjeopardy . I me that the Business Model was in realieopardy . Real eopardy . I was not a director of realjeopardy . I was not a director ofthe realjeopardy . I was not a director of the company realjeopardy . I was not a director of the company or realjeopardy . I was not a director of the company or involved realjeopardy . I was not a director of the company or involved in realjeopardy . I was not a director. Of the company or involved in credit and risk with the company, and sol was not aware of the deadline with tokio marine but i listened every week to the Company Podcast that was describing how the company was going, and there seemed to be a good position with 28 insurers and a number of new insurers coming on board, so i dont think i was aware about that looming deadline. When you are an adviser to a company but not a director, one of the things you are asking yourself, does this company have an effective legal function, does it have an effective Credit Committee, Risk Committee . Audit committee . Is it a strong board . The answer those questions seemed to me to be pretty positive, but of course you take comfort from that. fin but of course you take comfort from that. ,. , but of course you take comfort from that. , h,. , that. On that point, where you concerned that. On that point, where you concerned that that. On that point, where you concerned that the that. On that point, where you concerned that the chair that. On that point, where you concerned that the chair had. That. On that point, where you concerned that the chair had come from citibank where mr greensill had worked and perhaps the chair was not sufficiently independent . Im not making an allegation to say he wasnt but i am aware that they worked together in the past. From what i saw of worked together in the past. From what i saw of how worked together in the past. From what i saw of how morris worked together in the past. Ff7� fl what i saw of how Morris Thompson worked, he had this extraordinary long experience in banking and finance, notjust citibank but elsewhere, and he was a very effective chairman and he helped the management to account from what i can see effectively. He held. When you are thinking about being an adviser to a company that is what you think about, the capabilities of the chairman and the board. Your role with clients, the chairman and the board. Your role with clients, you the chairman and the board. Your role with clients, you said the chairman and the board. Your role with clients, you said part of your mission was to go out there and win new business, and i do believe that you actually went to visit the credit insurers in australia, what was the nature of that visit and that meeting . Was the nature of that visit and that meeting . That meeting was reall a that meeting . That meeting was really a general that meeting . That meeting was really a general catch that meeting . That meeting was really a general catch up that meeting . That meeting was really a general catch up and really a general catch up and getting to know you meeting a man i was in australia, i was giving a lecture to an Australian Jewish organisation and because i was in australia and Lex Greensill was there he said, i think we did a meeting with clients and prospective clients, and we also went to see this insurer, but it was not a significant business meeting. It was just a getting to know, checking in with and for me to get to know them. Did you meet a mr brereton who was subsequently fired for exceeding his risk limits to greensill . J subsequently fired for exceeding his risk limits to greensill . Risk limits to greensill . I dont remember risk limits to greensill . I dont remember exactly risk limits to greensill . I dont remember exactly who risk limits to greensill . I dont remember exactly who i risk limits to greensill . I dont remember exactly who i met. | risk limits to greensill . I dont| remember exactly who i met. I risk limits to greensill . I dont remember exactly who i met. I may have a record of it, maybe not. H have a record of it, maybe not. I understand. I believe your office has denied this but there have been reports that mr greensill was offering up meetings with you almost as rewards if people in government accepted meetings with him, can you categorically say that you were not aware of that practice . Aware of that practice . Totally not aware of that practice . Totally not aware of that practice . Totally not aware of that. Aware of that practice . Totally not aware of that. I aware of that practice . Totally not aware of that. I would aware of that practice . Totally not aware of that. I would carry aware of that practice . Totally not aware of that. I would carry out. Aware of that practice . Totally not aware of that. I would carry out al aware of that. I would carry out a lot of meetings for the company, whether it was with customers and suppliers and partners, what have you, but im not aware of that at all. � ,. , , all. Im being told my time is up, so one final all. Im being told my time is up, so one final question, all. Im being told my time is up, so one final question, do all. Im being told my time is up, so one final question, do you all. Im being told my time is up, i so one final question, do you regret your involvement with greensill and as you look forward, because you are clearly still a very young man and may take on other opportunities, will you take on more commercial opportunities Going Forward . Is that something you have on your agenda . When you work for a company that goes into administration you look back and you think, what different choices could i have made . All i can say to the committee is, my real focus is things like alzheimers and dementia since leaving office, and i have wanted to have a range of Business Interests as well, and i chose greensill because i thought it was an exciting uk based tech company that would be rolled up sleeves working in rather thanjust a brass nameplate on the door. But what has happened is deeply regrettable and it is being part of a company that goes into administration, it is depressing, but never mind make a map of the people who have Lost Theirjobs, they had futures invested in this company being their future they had futures invested in this company being theirfuture but never mind me, it is the people who Lost Theirjobs. In terms of my own situation, i will have some commercial interests but i have a lot of work on with dementia and i chair the early diagnosis board for how we can try and diagnose dementia earlier and therefore find the cure and i think that is the most Important Mission ive got at the moment. Maybe now i will have even more time to pursue it. More time to pursue it. Thank you. Anaela, more time to pursue it. Thank you. Angela. Please more time to pursue it. Thank you. Angela. Please i more time to pursue it. Thank you. Angela, please. I have more time to pursue it. Thank you. Angela, please. I have read more time to pursue it. Thank you. Angela, please. I have read your. More time to pursue it. Thank you. | angela, please. I have read your 56 messages. Angela, please. I have read your 56 messages. Mr angela, please. I have read your 56 messages, mr cameron, angela, please. I have read your 56 messages, mr cameron, and angela, please. I have read your 56 messages, mr cameron, and they l angela, please. I have read your 56 l messages, mr cameron, and they are more like stalking than lobbying. Are you at least a little bit embarrassed about the way you behaved . figs embarrassed about the way you behaved . � , embarrassed about the way you behaved . ,. , embarrassed about the way you behaved . ,. , behaved . As i said, it was a particularly behaved . As i said, it was a particularly acute behaved . As i said, it was a particularly acute time behaved . As i said, it was a particularly acute time in. Behaved . As i said, it was a | particularly acute time in the british economy, and the government was introducing plans to help businesses and we thought we had a good idea. Iwas businesses and we thought we had a good idea. I was keen to get it in front of government but there are lessons to learn and lessons for me to learn and in future the single formal e mail or formal letter would be appropriate. It is easy to forget nowjust be appropriate. It is easy to forget now just what a time of be appropriate. It is easy to forget nowjust what a time of economic shock it was. Nowjust what a time of economic shock it was shock it was. Many of us dont for et, shock it was. Many of us dont forget. And shock it was. Many of us dont forget, and there shock it was. Many of us dont forget, and there were shock it was. Many of us dont i forget, and there were thousands shock it was. Many of us dont forget, and there were thousands of people were dying at the time and the country was in a serious situation. You said your role was an adviser, did you ever describe yourself as a director of the company to nhs acts in a e mail . Nhs acts. Company to nhs acts in a email . Nhs acts. ,. , company to nhs acts in a email . Nhs acts. ,. , nhs acts. There is an email where i described bill nhs acts. There is an email where i described Bill Crothers nhs acts. There is an email where i described Bill Crothers as nhs acts. There is an email where i described Bill Crothers as a nhs acts. There is an email where i described Bill Crothers as a fellow i described Bill Crothers as a fellow director, and that was a mistake, because i was not a director and i did not sit on any of those subcommittees of the board. Did you do the same subcommittees of the board. Did you do the same in subcommittees of the board. Did you do the same in writing subcommittees of the board. Did you do the same in writing to subcommittees of the board. Did you do the same in writing to a subcommittees of the board. Did you do the same in writing to a company| do the same in writing to a company in australia, refer to yourself as a director . I in australia, refer to yourself as a director . , � ,. , director . I dont believe i did, no. Can ou director . I dont believe i did, no. Can you check director . I dont believe i did, no. Can you check your director . I dont believe i did, no. Can you check your records director . I dont believe i did, no. Can you check your records on director . I dont believe i did, no. L can you check your records on that . Of course. ,. , of course. Lex greensill told me that ou of course. Lex greensill told me that you had of course. Lex greensill told me that you had a of course. Lex greensill told me that you had a standing of course. Lex greensill told me that you had a standing invite i of course. Lex greensill told me that you had a standing invite to j that you had a standing invite to Board Meetings and that you attended regularly, but you have said today you attended regularly, and that you had a lot to say at some of those Board Meetings. Do you know what a shadow director is under section 251 and one of the company act 2006 . Are you aware of the consequences of you being found to be a shadow director . I am aware. Im not a lawyer but my understanding of this is that the shadow director issue is when you have a company that has a board but the real person controlling that company is actually not on the board. And that is what the concept of the shadow director is. In my case there is no question that i was in any way controlling this company while not being on the board so i dont think that applies to me at all. � ,. ,. , all. Ok. At the time you started our all. Ok. At the time you started your incredibly all. Ok. At the time you started your incredibly frenetic all. Ok. At the time you started j your incredibly frenetic lobbying all. Ok. At the time you started i your incredibly frenetic lobbying of the chancellor, were you aware that the chancellor, were you aware that the german regulator had given greensill instruction to reduce their loan concentration to gupta . I dont believe i was but i may have to check the records. That dont believe i was but i may have to check the records. To check the records. That wasnt discussed at to check the records. That wasnt discussed at the to check the records. That wasnt discussed at the meetings to check the records. That wasnt discussed at the meetings you i discussed at the meetings you attended . I discussed at the meetings you attended . , � , attended . I dont believe so but i can certainly attended . I dont believe so but i can certainly go attended . I dont believe so but i can certainly go back attended . I dont believe so but i can certainly go back and attended . I dont believe so but i can certainly go back and check. L attended . I dont believe so but i | can certainly go back and check. It is an important question, what was the closest Board Meeting before the pandemic struck and i dont recall off the top of my head, but i dont remember that. Off the top of my head, but i dont rememberthat. I off the top of my head, but i dont remember that. I dont want to give an inaccurate answer. You remember that. I dont want to give an inaccurate answer. An inaccurate answer. You could check and an inaccurate answer. You could check and get an inaccurate answer. You could check and get back an inaccurate answer. You could check and get back to an inaccurate answer. You could check and get back to us an inaccurate answer. You could check and get back to us about. An inaccurate answer. You could check and get back to us about that. Were you aware that most of the coronavirus interruption Business Loans made by Greensill Bank work to gupta names and friends which is actually increasing greensills concentration and exposure to gupta rather than reducing it . This i concentration and exposure to gupta rather than reducing it . Rather than reducing it . As i said i was not on rather than reducing it . As i said i was not on the rather than reducing it . As i said i was not on the credit rather than reducing it . As i said i was not on the Credit Committee l rather than reducing it . As i said i l was not on the Credit Committee so rather than reducing it . As i said i i was not on the Credit Committee so i was not on the Credit Committee so i was not on the Credit Committee so i was not responsible for extending any credit, any loan, to any client, including mr gupta, so i did not know about the exact nature of those loans, no. ,. , loans, no. These things were not discussed at loans, no. These things were not discussed at the loans, no. These things were not discussed at the board loans, no. These things were not discussed at the Board Meetings| loans, no. These things were not discussed at the Board Meetings that you attended . Did the Credit Committee is not given reports that the board of directors . Committees not give reports. I the board of directors . Committees not give reports. I dont remember that. Committees not give reports. I dont remember that. I committees not give reports. I dont remember that. I remember committees not give reports. I dont remember that. I remember with i committees not give reports. I dont| remember that. I remember with the ccff, there was a lot of discussion outside the board because this was happening in real time, outside the board because this was happening in realtime, and it outside the board because this was happening in real time, and it was a very good scheme the government had set up, that we had this proposal to amend. In terms of the other schemes, there were discussions between greensill and the British Business bank, discussions i was not involved with at all, over the process of being an accredited lender, and im sure they were reported back to Board Meetings but it is not something i had any involvement with. Leer. It is not something i had any involvement with. ,. , involvement with. Lex greensill told me that you involvement with. Lex greensill told me that you were involvement with. Lex greensill told me that you were a involvement with. Lex greensill told me that you were a paye involvement with. Lex greensill told me that you were a paye employee | involvement with. Lex greensill told l me that you were a paye employee of the company, how much were you paid for that role . You gave a hint earlier saying it was more than you and as Prime Minister. More than borisjohnson and when he was on the backbenches . What is a ballpark figure . I backbenches . What is a ballpark fiuure . ,. , figure . I was well paid in terms of the annual figure . I was well paid in terms of the annual amount figure . I was well paid in terms of the annual amount and figure . I was well paid in terms of the annual amount and i figure . I was well paid in terms of the annual amount and i have i figure . I was well paid in terms of i the annual amount and i have these shares but as i said to your chairman, it is important for the committee to know i had that economic interest and i was committed to the company i wanted to work for it and i would benefit if they succeeded but the questions you are asking and addressing quite rightly in your committee about lobbying and about this behaviour and what former Prime Ministers should do, i dont think they were affected by the amount of it and so i dont consider, i would consider that a private matter. That a private matter. Perhaps, riven that a private matter. Perhaps, given that that a private matter. Perhaps, given that the that a private matter. Perhaps, given that the company that a private matter. Perhaps, i given that the company collapsed, that it took we know at least £400 million of government backed loans via the British Business bank with it, that it has cost between one and £3 billion of taxpayers money, that they are german towns are suffering because of the stricken nature of the Greensill Bank in germany, so dont you think that what you were earning and how it motivated your personal lobbying of government is a matter of Public Interest . What personal lobbying of government is a matter of Public Interest . Matter of Public Interest . What i would say is matter of Public Interest . What i would say is that matter of Public Interest . What i would say is that my matter of Public Interest . What i would say is that my motivation l matter of Public Interest . What i l would say is that my motivation in talking to the government was about how to introduce a scheme that i thought would benefit Small Businesses. Thought would benefit Small Businesses. ~ , ~ businesses. Likewise, if this bank had actually businesses. Likewise, if this bank had actually floated businesses. Likewise, if this bank had actually floated successfully, | had actually floated successfully, you would have been a multimillionaire . I you would have been a multimillionaire . ,. ,. ,~ multimillionaire . I would also make the oint, multimillionaire . I would also make the point. Lex multimillionaire . I would also make the point, Lex Greensill multimillionaire . I would also make the point, Lex Greensill talked i multimillionaire . I would also make the point, Lex Greensill talked of i the point, Lex Greensill talked of the point, Lex Greensill talked of the government in terms of meetings he had more than i did, and when i dip he was in front of you the other day when he was in front of you the other day, you did not ask what he earned and what his shares were four, but yes, i was paid by the company and i had shares in it and i wanted it to succeed but the quantity of it i dont think is actually relevant to answering the questions that you have to ask. Share questions that you have to ask. Are ou questions that you have to ask. Are you keeping the earnings offshore restaurant or tax has been paid on them, it is all onshore. It was reported in the wall streetjournal that you made several Million Dollars from cashing out Stock Options in 2019, is that true . Again, have you kept all of those earnings onshore and paid tax on that . Everything i have done, i have paid full uk tax on, whether Capital Gains tax or income tax, i dont have any money offshore. I have an office of David Cameron, which i fund through some of the work that i do, and i earn some money in a personal capacity, but every proper tax is paid. Flan personal capacity, but every proper tax is aid. , personal capacity, but every proper tax is aid. ,. , personal capacity, but every proper taxis aid. , tax is paid. Can i ust ask you about tax is paid. Can ijust ask you about prospective tax is paid. Can ijust ask you l about prospective receivables . Tax is paid. Can ijust ask you i about prospective receivables . You seem like mr greensill was reluctant to recognise that phrase, and talk about future receivables instead. Yet, that phrase does feature in Court Documents in america, and it also features in correspondence that mr gupta had with the Financial Times overfraudulent mr gupta had with the Financial Times over fraudulent invoices, it seems, that were securitised by greensill. How much do you know about prospective receivables, and how much was Greensill Bank involved in securitising phantom invoices . Well, i think youve got answers from Lex Greensill on tuesday he was running the business and who was involved in these credit and other decisions. He explained that he thought the term was future receivables, rather than prospective receivables. The point i would make is, and i think you said that only 20 of the business was future receivables rather than actual receivables, but i think the example he gave, and im happy to give a couple of others, is that there is nothing abnormal about providing finance on the basis of future receivables. I mean, when the nhs. I agree with that, so long as they are predictable, but actually gupta was talking about prospective receivables, not future receivables, and we do know that greensill had a pretty twisted, symbiotic relationship with gupta. Well, i heard mr greensill relationship with gupta. Well, i heard mr greensill s relationship with gupta. Well, i heard mr greensill s evidence, j relationship with gupta. Well, i i heard mr greensill s evidence, when heard mr greensill s evidence, when he said that, you know, all the financing had to be based on actual invoices, and not of course any fake invoices, and not of course any fake invoices, matters are very important consideration. But i think, and your committee will have to think about how to answer this, but what i wouldnt do is to say that all financing on the basis of future receivables is a bad idea. Ida. Financing on the basis of future receivables is a bad idea. Receivables is a bad idea. No, i wouldnt say receivables is a bad idea. No, i wouldnt say that receivables is a bad idea. No, i wouldnt say that either. I receivables is a bad idea. No, i wouldnt say that either. But i wouldnt say that either. But phantom invoices are. Wouldnt say that either. But phantom invoices are. Yes, that would be a phantom invoices are. Yes, that would be a very phantom invoices are. Yes, that would be a very serious phantom invoices are. Yes, that i would be a very serious accusation. And finally, how many times did you use one of the greensills fleet of private planes to fly to and from newquay, close to your third home, orany newquay, close to your third home, or any other non business declarations, and what is your estimate of the value of your use of the greensill fleet, and have you declared these as taxable benefits . I havent got a complete record of the use of planes. I mean, it was used quite a lot by Lex Greensill and senior managers and sometimes myself on business visits, and i did use it a handful of times on other visits, and of course all proper taxes and all those things will be dealt with in the proper way. Thank ou, dealt with in the proper way. Thank you. Chair. Dealt with in the proper way. Thank you, chair. Thank dealt with in the proper way. Thank you, chair. Thank you dealt with in the proper way. Thank you, chair. Thank you very dealt with in the proper way. Thank you, chair. Thank you very much, l you, chair. Thank you very much, anaela, you, chair. Thank you very much, angela. And you, chair. Thank you very much, angela. And going you, chair. Thank you very much, angela, and going now you, chair. Thank you very much, angela, and going now to you, chair. Thank you very much, i angela, and going now to anthony, please angela, and going now to anthony, lease. ,. Angela, and going now to anthony, lease. , ~ , angela, and going now to anthony, lease. ~ ,. ,. ,. ,. , ~ please. Thank you, chair, and thank ou david please. Thank you, chair, and thank you David Cameron please. Thank you, chair, and thank you David Cameron for please. Thank you, chair, and thank you David Cameron for coming i please. Thank you, chair, and thank you David Cameron for coming to i please. Thank you, chair, and thank. You David Cameron for coming to give evidence to our committee. Ijust want to follow up a couple of questions that angela eagle was asking about, about prospective receivables. And i completely support what you say about the role of supply Chain Finance, i myself have helped promote it and securitising supply Chain Finance assets is not necessarily an issue, and doing future receivables, such as with the pharmacies, not an issue at all. What the issue is is there has been a lot of stories in the media about the administrator coming across and trying to unravel all this and coming across invoices, where the companies that supposedly issued the invoices, said they had absolutely no commercial arrangement with liberty commodities, with gupta, and they certainly seem to be fraudulent, orthey were, gupta, and they certainly seem to be fraudulent, or they were, and we dont know whether they were made up ljy dont know whether they were made up by gupta, or whether greensill knew about these or not. You must have read these reports and you must have been concerned about what was going on under the bonnet there, even if you didnt know it at the time . Ida. You didnt know it at the time . No, well, the recent you didnt know it at the time . Mr, well, the recent reports that have come out about this are clearly very disturbing, if true. As i say, i wasnt involved in credit extension, not to gupta, but not to any company, that wasnt part of my role. But of italy there is a difference between future receivables, known cash flows, for instance your mobile phone in your pocket, you pay for with a contract, and that is a sort of future receivables if you like. There is a difference between that and something you know, nonexistent prospective clients that havent even been contacted yet. That is a different thing. So, look, i dont know any more than you do about that. I have read that in the newspapers, it seems concerning and im sure it needs to be got to the bottom of. Im sure it needs to be got to the bottom of bottom of. Some of the previous witnesses we bottom of. Some of the previous witnesses we have bottom of. Some of the previous witnesses we have had bottom of. Some of the previous witnesses we have had have i bottom of. Some of the previous witnesses we have had have said securitising these invoices where companies dont have any commercial arrangement with liberty, with gupta, securitising them and selling them on as assets, they are quite clear this is very strong appearance of basically being fraudulent. I mean, how concerned are you about that, that actually fundamentally here there was a large amount of fraud going on . Here there was a large amount of fraud going on . Well, i certainly, ou fraud going on . Well, i certainly, you know. Fraud going on . Well, i certainly, you know, havent fraud going on . Well, i certainly, you know, havent seen fraud going on . Well, i certainly, you know, havent seen any i fraud going on . Well, i certainly, i you know, havent seen any evidence of that myself directly. I thought mr greensill sort of explain the difference between. We mr greensill sort of explain the difference between. Mr greensill sort of explain the difference between. We are ust askinu difference between. We are ust askin the difference between. We are ust asking the questions. I difference between. We are ust asking the questions. What i difference between. We are just asking the questions. What goes| difference between. We are just i asking the questions. What goes with future receivables, asking the questions. What goes with future receivables, the asking the questions. What goes with future receivables, the role asking the questions. What goes with future receivables, the role of future receivables, the role of insurance, but obviously if what is being suggested is true, then that probably needs to be looked at. Some ofthe probably needs to be looked at. Some of the evidence probably needs to be looked at. Some of the evidence we probably needs to be looked at. Some of the evidence we have probably needs to be looked at. Some of the evidence we have been taking early was really about the role of National Regulation here, and supply Chain Finance as you know is not regulated. Pm Chain Finance as you know is not regulated regulated. An important point there, regulated. An important point there. Which regulated. An important point there, which is regulated. An important point there, which is business regulated. An important point| there, which is business lending isnt regulated. I think it would be wrong to single out supply Chain Finance. As if supply Chain Finance is trying to hide in some sort of dark corner. It is a form of business lending, and business lending isnt regulated. You are the expert here, you run the British Bankers Association, so their arguments about how to better extend and use regulation but i think it is important to make distinction. Absolutely. Lending from one company to another is under civil contract law is between two professional partners, it isnt regulated. The principles of regulations are generally Consumer Protection or Depositor Protection if it is a bank and neither of those apply to business lending or supply Chain Finance. My question there really is, and one of the remits of our enquiry here at the treasury select committee, is to learn if there are any lessons for financial regulation, and honestly you wont the chancellor directly responsible, but you were the head of a government that did a lot of financial relate regulation. From your point of view, in terms of what your point of view, in terms of what you learned, are there any lessons to be learned about financial regulations or suggested changes that you think the government should look at . I that you think the government should look at . , that you think the government should look at . ~. , that you think the government should look at . ~. ,. , look at . I think i have listened to the evidence look at . I think i have listened to the evidence you look at . I think i have listened to the evidence you have look at . I think i have listened to the evidence you have had look at . I think i have listened to the evidence you have had this i look at . I think i have listened to i the evidence you have had this week. I think the fca made some very good points about the ar regime. I think the point is mr greensill made about Credit Insurance are important. What the fca said, even if there isnt greater regulation, having better regulation, not least so that you can see when something might become systemically important, i thought that was important. Ijust make one point as you do it, which is as you do it, we must continue if we can in this country to be a financial technological innovator. Look, this business failed, so perhaps this isnt the right time to make this point, but there is a lot of innovation taking place that are taking things that banks tend to do quite badly and making it cheaper and more effective for our constituents. I take the example for example of remittances forced we all have many constituents who worked very hard and send some of the money home to families in other countries. For years, they placed high charges and poor service, and now technology, blockchain and other mechanisms, and Companies Like mons though and all the rest of it are making it that much easier. Like monzo. So as we regulate better lets not lose the ability of technology and Capital Markets to deliver low cost finance for people who can really benefit. I deliver lowcost finance for people who can really benefit. Who can really benefit. I certainly su ort who can really benefit. I certainly support that who can really benefit. I certainly support that l who can really benefit. I certainly support that. I should who can really benefit. I certainly support that. I should declare i who can really benefit. I certainly l support that. I should declare since i left the British Bankers Association i have also been involved with Financial Technology firms, quite a few of them, and i am actually the legal director of some. You have described greensill as a fintech firm, and what i have learned is that it is quite an appealing phrase, and quite a lot of companies are described as such without having a lot of tech there, and lots of people use the word Artificial Intelligence in a very slapdash way, when there is nothing that intelligent about it, in terms of technology. Im just wondering, how much should you look at the technology of greensill, because again there have been quite a lot of people, reports of people lifting up the bonnet there, there was nothing that sophisticated about the technology. I that sophisticated about the technology that sophisticated about the technolou. ,. , � technology. I certainly wouldnt retend technology. I certainly wouldnt pretend to technology. I certainly wouldnt pretend to be technology. I certainly wouldnt pretend to be an technology. I certainly wouldnt pretend to be an expert technology. I certainly wouldnt pretend to be an expert in i technology. I certainly wouldnt pretend to be an expert in this, technology. I certainly wouldnt i pretend to be an expert in this, but it seems to be what greensill were doing with partners like oracle in the past, using the information in a companys erp to make sure you could extend credit to suppliers and indeed to employees faster, i think that does qualify for fintech, because the thin is the access to the deep Capital Markets, and the techis the deep Capital Markets, and the tech is using the erp to make Credit Decisions better and faster. And i know that all sounds very techie, but what it ultimately can be about is trying to make the cost of your mobile phone lower, making sure you can access your pay on a daily basis, ratherthan can access your pay on a daily basis, rather than waiting until the end of the month. I think these are quite powerful changes. So whether you want to call it tech enabled, or fintech, you know, that is a matter of choice. But it is certainly using technology and Capital Markets to make peoples lives better. My last auestion is make peoples lives better. My last question is about make peoples lives better. My last question is about your make peoples lives better. My last i question is about your communication with the treasurer. You are busily made various explanations about what exactly greensill did. There is, as we said at the beginning, as we recognise, serious questions about potential fraud there, and the Business Model not being all that it seemed, and certainly lord mind up as much evidence about that. How much did you check what you are telling the treasury was actually fully true . Are you satisfied amid all right enquiries to make sure you as a former Prime Minister will not passing on any false information to the treasury . The treasury . That is very good question the treasury . That is very good question. The the treasury . That is very good question. The briefing the treasury . That is very good question. The briefing note i i the treasury . That is very good i question. The briefing note i sent, many of the e mails and Text Messages by sending the same briefing note to different people, that was drawn up in consultation with people at greensill, and i asked that it was very carefully checked and that all the information in it was right, and i believe that be the case. In it was right, and i believe that be the case in it was right, and i believe that be the case. � ,. , be the case. And did you challenge an of the be the case. And did you challenge any of the information be the case. And did you challenge any of the information at be the case. And did you challenge any of the information at all be the case. And did you challenge any of the information at all or be the case. And did you challenge any of the information at all or do | any of the information at all or do they provide you with a sort of pro forma . I they provide you with a sort of pro forma . ~. , they provide you with a sort of pro forma . ~. ,. , forma . I think it went through a number of forma . I think it went through a number of drafts, forma . I think it went through a number of drafts, from forma . I think it went through a | number of drafts, from memory, forma . I think it went through a i number of drafts, from memory, i would have to check that, but that was the point. I thought we had a strong case. I wanted to make sure we didnt overstate anything. As i say, i think we did make a mistake, in that here was the cssf, here was our proposal to enter into it, and we took too many iterations to get to something that was really tailored to uk smes, sterling currency only, qualifying companies. We should have got there faster and i was frustrated about that and that is a regret and that did mean there was more contact than they otherwise should have been. find was more contact than they otherwise should have been. Should have been. And my last question. Should have been. And my last question, felicity should have been. And my last question, Felicity Buchan should have been. And my last| question, Felicity Buchan asked whether you regretted it and you didnt really answer in a direct way. If you were in the same situation again, what exactly would you do differently, or would you do exactly the same again . The you do differently, or would you do exactly the same again . Exactly the same again . The first thin is if exactly the same again . The first thing is if you exactly the same again . The first thing is if you work exactly the same again . The first thing is if you work for exactly the same again . The first thing is if you work for a exactly the same again . The firstl thing is if you work for a company that goes into administration, you look back and think that i have made a different choice . I did do Due Diligence, i did ask people in all the rest of it, but, you know, it is a very regretting experience working for a company that goes into administration and all the regret about people who have lost their jobs and all the rest of it, so that obviously is something you would think about. In terms of the contact with Government Ministers, i have said many times, you know, ex Prime Minister is are different, and a letter or an e mail once is better. We were in special circumstances, i mean, what im saying to the committee as i think we were in very special circumstances and that explains why i did what i did. But as i say, there are lessons to learn, and im sure your committee will perhaps give me some of the ones to learn, too. Flan will perhaps give me some of the ones to learn, too. Will perhaps give me some of the ones to learn, too. Can i ust push ou on ones to learn, too. Can i ust push you on that ones to learn, too. Can i ust push you on that h ones to learn, too. Can i ust push you on that one point, ones to learn, too. Can ijust push you on that one point, apart ones to learn, too. Can ijust push you on that one point, apart from | you on that one point, apart from sending a single letter or a single e mail rather than the volume of communication you had, is there anything else you would have done differently throughout this . Ihell. Differently throughout this . Well, also ttettin differently throughout this . Well, also getting to differently throughout this . Well, also getting to a differently throughout this . Well, also getting to a better differently throughout this . Ii also getting to a better answer to how to amend the ccff faster. As i said, that was something we could have done better. Also i think, look, when the company went into administration, i waited quite a while before making a 1700 word statement, or whatever it was. I thought i was not the right person to go out and explain why the company had gone into administration, because i wasnt running the company and i wasnt a director. But i think the expectation that someone else would take that up was perhaps something i might do differently. {lila take that up was perhaps something i might do differently. Might do differently. 0k, thank you ve much might do differently. Ok, thank you very much for might do differently. 0k, thank you very much for your might do differently. 0k, thank you very much for your answers. Might do differently. 0k, thank you very much for your answers. Thank| very much for your answers. Thank ou, very much for your answers. Thank you. Anthony very much for your answers. Thank you. Anthony im very much for your answers. Thank you, anthony. Imjust very much for your answers. Thank you, anthony. Im just going very much for your answers. Thank you, anthony. Im just going to very much for your answers. Thank you, anthony. Im just going to go | you, anthony. Im just going to go back you, anthony. Im just going to go back to you, anthony. Im just going to go back to angela, you, anthony. Im just going to go back to angela, please. You, anthony. Im just going to go back to angela, please. You, anthony. Im just going to go back to angela, please. Thank you very much back to angela, please. Thank you very much mr back to angela, please. Thank you very much. Mr cameron, back to angela, please. Thank you very much. Mr cameron, have back to angela, please. Thank you very much. Mr cameron, have you l back to angela, please. Thank you very much. Mr cameron, have you got anything to say to those who have lost money, who invested in the funds and Credit Suisse, though small german towns, whose townships have lost a lot of money because of what has happened at Greensill Bank, do you have anything to say to them now . ~. , do you have anything to say to them now . ,. ,. , do you have anything to say to them now . ,. ,. ,. , , do you have anything to say to them now . ,. ,. ,. , now . What i do have obviously is a treat now . What i do have obviously is a great regret now . What i do have obviously is a great regret that now . What i do have obviously is a great regret that this now . What i do have obviously is a great regret that this company now . What i do have obviously is a great regret that this company has| great regret that this company has failed, but it went into administration. You know, and the people i feel most sorry for other people i feel most sorry for other people who worked for greensill, many of them at the hq in warrington, who worked very hard, who believe deeply in what the company was doing and have Lost Theirjobs. And of course if anyone does lose money through their investments, that is a matter of regret. My understanding is with funds, it takes time for the assets to run off, because a lot of them are receivables, and if the Underlying Company is still paying their suppliers, and therefore paying back the funds, that money will be recovered. So i think it will be recovered. So i think it will take some time before we know what exactly the consequences are, but obviously im extremely sorry for anyone who has lost money or lost out or lost a job because of what has happened. find lost out or lost a job because of what has happened. Lost out or lost a job because of what has happened. And mr cameron, what has happened. And mr cameron, what about the what has happened. And mr cameron, what about the 5000 what has happened. And mr cameron, what about the 5000 workers what has happened. And mr cameron, what about the 5000 workers who what has happened. And mr cameron, | what about the 5000 workers who work at Liberty Steel whose future is once more in doubt, and what about all of us taxpayers who have subsidised the British Business bankss loans, which also are likely to be irrecoverable as a result of this collapse . To be irrecoverable as a result of this collapse . Well, obviously i am ve keen this collapse . Well, obviously i am very keen for this collapse . Well, obviously i am very keen for britain this collapse . Well, obviously i am very keen for britain to this collapse . Well, obviously i am very keen for britain to continue i this collapse . Well, obviously i am very keen for britain to continue to l very keen for britain to continue to have a Steel Industry full stop as Prime Minister, i got very involved in the issues about port talbot and about scunthorpe. We are a great industrial nation, i hope we can maintain parts of our Steel Industry, and for all the concerns i have about the concentration on dr and g the idea of a green Steel Industry where we knelt down one of our own scrap rather than try to export it and built a Steel Industry on that basis is something i think has merits. I hope those steeljobs can still be maintained. Perhaps your committee can help us get to the bottom of it, but i think it wouldnt be fair to say, well, it is the failure of greensill that is putting g fg injeopardy. It is a symbiotic relationship that are busily went wrong between the two. But all steel jobs that busily went wrong between the two. But all steeljobs that can be saved, i hope they can be. Hand but all steeljobs that can be saved, i hope they can be. And lord macpherson saved, i hope they can be. And lord macpherson in saved, i hope they can be. And lord macpherson in his saved, i hope they can be. And lord macpherson in his evidence saved, i hope they can be. And lord macpherson in his evidence to saved, i hope they can be. And lord macpherson in his evidence to us, l macpherson in his evidence to us, the phrase he used was typical understatement, because i know him well too, is that it is slightly disappointing that officials time was wasted, when that was a valuable commodity because of the wider crisis. Did you give enough thought to what the treasury was having to deal with before or during or after you were generating your 56 messages . You were generating your 56 messages . You were generating your 56 messates . ,. , messages . Well, of course i did think about messages . Well, of course i did think about this messages . Well, of course i did think about this before messages . Well, of course i did think about this before calling i messages . Well, of course i did l think about this before calling the treasury, and i read Nick Macpherson s evidence, but also i would draw your attention to the current serving permanent secretary and deputy permanent secretary who said they didnt feel under pressure, they didnt feel under pressure, they didnt feel it was an inappropriate use of resources. I think it is a genuine question about commune, we know the banks have excellent access to the treasury and quite right too, but when a lot of lending is carried out by non bank Financial Institutions and by Fintech Firms, i think it is important that the treasury and the Bank Of England understand how those work and how they could be included in schemes. 50 work and how they could be included in schemes in schemes. So stunning that up, it is really no in schemes. So stunning that up, it is really no regrets in schemes. So stunning that up, it is really no regrets then in schemes. So stunning that up, it is really no regrets then about in schemes. So stunning that up, it is really no regrets then about your own personal behaviour . Im is really no regrets then about your own personal behaviour . Own personal behaviour . Im not sa int own personal behaviour . Im not saying that own personal behaviour . Im not saying that at own personal behaviour . Im not saying that at all, own personal behaviour . Im not saying that at all, i own personal behaviour . Im not saying that at all, i think own personal behaviour . Im not saying that at all, i think i own personal behaviour . Im not saying that at all, i think i have l saying that at all, i think i have said very clearly that ex Prime Minister is are different. I have reflected on all that has happened. I think there were very special circumstances and the crisis, the potential economic crisis that followed covid, but in future except that x Prime Ministers in their different should restrict themselves to a single letter to make the point is that they might want to make. I mean, hopefully there wont be any of those. But it was a particular time. ,. , ~ i of those. But it was a particular time. T,. ~ , of those. But it was a particular time. ,. , ~ ,. Time. Chair, thank you very much. Think you time. Chair, thank you very much. Think you much. Time. Chair, thank you very much. Think you much. David, time. Chair, thank you very much. Think you much. David, can time. Chair, thank you very much. Think you much. David, can i time. Chair, thank you very much. Think you much. David, can ijust| think you much. David, can ijust come think you much. David, can ijust come back think you much. David, can ijust come back to think you much. David, can ijust come back to one think you much. David, can ijust come back to one point, think you much. David, can ijust come back to one point, it think you much. David, can ijust come back to one point, it is come back to one point, it is gnawing come back to one point, it is gnawing away come back to one point, it is gnawing away at come back to one point, it is gnawing away at me come back to one point, it is gnawing away at me a come back to one point, it is gnawing away at me a little. Come back to one point, it is i gnawing away at me a little bit. What gnawing away at me a little bit. What the gnawing away at me a little bit. What the company gnawing away at me a little bit. What the company is gnawing away at me a little bit. What the company is paid i gnawing away at me a little bit. What the company is paid or. Gnawing away at me a little bit. 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But these are small amounts then you are probably right, but if these are small amounts then you are probably right, but if they these are small amounts then you are probably right, but if they are these are small amounts then you are probably right, but if they are very probably right, but if they are very large probably right, but if they are very large amounts probably right, but if they are very large amounts than probably right, but if they are very large amounts than it probably right, but if they are very large amounts than it is probably right, but if they are very large amounts than it is hard i probably right, but if they are very large amounts than it is hard to i large amounts than it is hard to argue large amounts than it is hard to argue i large amounts than it is hard to argue i think large amounts than it is hard to argue i think that large amounts than it is hard to argue i think that it large amounts than it is hard to argue i think that it wouldnt i large amounts than it is hard to. 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So could liust press under those circumstances. So could ijust press you under those circumstances. So could ijust press you just under those circumstances. So could ijust press you just a under those circumstances. So could ijust press you just a little under those circumstances. So could ijust press you just a little bit ijust press you just a little bit harder, ijust press you just a little bit harder, on ijust press you just a little bit harder, on this ijust press you just a little bit harder, on this basic ijust press you just a little bit harder, on this basic salary. Ijust press you just a little bit i harder, on this basic salary that you were harder, on this basic salary that you were on harder, on this basic salary that you were on with harder, on this basic salary that you were on with greensill, ii harder, on this basic salary that i you were on with greensill, i mean, are we you were on with greensill, i mean, are we talking you were on with greensill, i mean, are we talking about you were on with greensill, i mean, are we talking about something, i you were on with greensill, i mean, i are we talking about something, say, up are we talking about something, say, up to are we talking about something, say, up to a are we talking about something, say, up to a million. Are we talking about something, say, up to a million. Or are we talking about something, say, up to a million, or over are we talking about something, say, up to a million, or over a are we talking about something, say, up to a million, or over a million . I up to a million, or overa million . 0r up to a million, or overa million . Orcan up to a million, or overa million . Orcanyou up to a million, or overa million . Or can you give up to a million, or overa million . Orcanyou give us up to a million, or overa million . Or can you give us some up to a million, or overa million . Or can you give us some kind i up to a million, or overa million . Or can you give us some kind of. Or can you give us some kind of feel. Or can you give us some kind of feel. Because or can you give us some kind of feel, because if or can you give us some kind of feel, because if it or can you give us some kind of feel, because if it is or can you give us some kind of feel, because if it is a or can you give us some kind of feel, because if it is a relativelyl feel, because if it is a relatively small feel, because if it is a relatively small amount, feel, because if it is a relatively small amount, then feel, because if it is a relatively small amount, then fine. Feel, because if it is a relatively small amount, then fine. It. Feel, because if it is a relatively small amount, then fine. It was a generous. Small amount, then fine. It was a generous. You small amount, then fine. It was a generous, you know, small amount, then fine. It was a generous, you know, big small amount, then fine. It was a generous, you know, big salary i small amount, then fine. It was a i generous, you know, big salary that you might earn, someone in my position, at a bank or what have you, and the reason you being stubborn in pursuing me, i am you, and the reason you being stubborn in pursuing me, iam being stubborn in pursuing me, iam being stubborn in pursuing me, iam being stubborn in my response is i do think it is important for people to know there was an economic interest, absolutely, both in pay, in cash, and in shares, but the questions you are asking and answering, i dont think required to know the exact figures. But yes, it was, you know, a generous salary. But figures. But yes, it was, you know, a generous salary. A generous salary. But generous salary could a generous salary. But generous salary could cover a generous salary. But generous salary could cover a a generous salary. But generous salary could cover a lot a generous salary. But generous salary could cover a lot of salary could cover a lot of possibilities, salary could cover a lot of possibilities, couldnt salary could cover a lot of possibilities, couldnt it, i salary could cover a lot of possibilities, couldnt it, couldnt you give possibilities, couldnt it, couldnt you give us possibilities, couldnt it, couldnt you give us something possibilities, couldnt it, couldnt you give us something a possibilities, couldnt it, couldnt you give us something a little i possibilities, couldnt it, couldnt you give us something a little bitl you give us something a little bit more you give us something a little bit more specific you give us something a little bit more specific than you give us something a little bit more specific than that . You give us something a little bit more specific than that . I you give us something a little bit more specific than that . You give us something a little bit more specific than that . I think, as i have more specific than that . I think, as l have said. More specific than that . I think, as l have said. If more specific than that . I think, as i have said, if i more specific than that . I think, as i have said, if i had more specific than that . I think, as i have said, if i had gone more specific than that . I think, as i have said, if i had gone to more specific than that . I think, as i have said, if i had gone to work. I have said, if i had gone to work for a large bank, or such like, as some of my predecessors have done, perhaps it would have been even more. But i didnt want to go and work for a large bank, i was excited by working for a uk fintech firm. But as i say, in any ones terms, it was a generous salary. But as i say, in any ones terms, it was a generous salary. Could i go to steve, was a generous salary. Could i go to steve. Please . Was a generous salary. Could i go to steve, please . Thank was a generous salary. Could i go to steve, please . Thank you, was a generous salary. Could i go to steve, please . Thank you, chair, i was a generous salary. Could i go to | steve, please . Thank you, chair, and i refer to my steve, please . Thank you, chair, and i refer to my registered i refer to my registered shareholding in blimp pay because we may return to fintech. Mr cameron, could ijust asked you to explain, perhaps you might refer to pharmacies, why you were so keen on supply Chain Finance . L pharmacies, why you were so keen on supply Chain Finance . Supply Chain Finance . I was keen on it for a very supply Chain Finance . I was keen on it for a very simple supply Chain Finance . I was keen on it for a very simple way, supply Chain Finance . I was keen on it for a very simple way, may i supply Chain Finance . I was keen on it for a very simple way, may be i supply Chain Finance . I was keen on l it for a very simple way, may be the way to do it is to go back to 2012 when Lex Greensill produced this scheme in government. We were in a Credit Crunch and he assembled a whole team of uk corporate is who had agreed to pay their suppliers, to get their suppliers paid early and use supply Chain Finance, effectively extending their credit terms, because they can borrow money very cheaply, to all the companies write down on their supply chain, and it was this combination of using Capital Markets and technology to help Small Businesses get their bills paid on time that, you know, i saw as notjust bills paid on time that, you know, i saw as not just a bills paid on time that, you know, i saw as notjust a good economic measure, but a socially useful measure, but a socially useful measure, that was one of the things that attracted me to working for the business. 50 that attracted me to working for the business. ,. , ~ ,. , business. So when mr greensill gave us evidence. Business. So when mr greensill gave us evidence, particularly business. So when mr greensill gave us evidence, particularly talked i us evidence, particularly talked about the technology and Machine Learning when i pressed him. What is your understanding about the extent to which those future prescriptions were certain . To which those future prescriptions were certain . Well, if you take the nhs example. Were certain . Well, if you take the nhs example, so were certain . Well, if you take the nhs example, so to were certain . Well, if you take the nhs example, so to start were certain . Well, if you take the nhs example, so to start with, i were certain . Well, if you take the nhs example, so to start with, my understanding is the first scheme was literally, instead of the pharmacy waiting, you know, 30 or a0 days for the nhs to cough up the money, as soon as they had the invoice approved, they could get the money from, at that stage, citibank. So that was classic receivables finance. What changed with the new scheme was that an algorithm was being used to help predict the prescription behaviour of each chemist, so they could get the money in advance of actually making the prescriptions. This was incredibly popular with pharmacies. I mean, a lot of them saw their cost of capital planet. They saw cash flows to their business improve, and it was a very successful scheme. Now, i wouldnt overdo the extent of Machine Learning and Artificial Intelligence. I mean, it is fairly predictable, if you think of pharmacies in, is it high wycombe. Wykeham, yeah. Pharmacies in, is it high wycombe. Wykeham, yeah pharmacies in, is it high wycombe. Wykeham, yeah. Wycombe, you have a retular wykeham, yeah. Wycombe, you have a regular bunch wykeham, yeah. Wycombe, you have a regular bunch of wykeham, yeah. Wycombe, you have a regular bunch of customers wykeham, yeah. Wycombe, you have a regular bunch of customers with wykeham, yeah. Wycombe, you have a regular bunch of customers with a i regular bunch of customers with a regular bunch of customers with a regular bunch of predictions prescriptions, so it is quite easy to predict, but that was the use of some algorithm to predict it. I wouldnt overdo it, but that is a future receivable and people getting paid for it early. Hagar future receivable and people getting paid for it early paid for it early. How much was that market, paid for it early. How much was that market. For paid for it early. How much was that market. For a paid for it early. How much was that market, for a better paid for it early. How much was that market, for a better term, paid for it early. How much was that market, for a better term, worth . L paid for it early. How much was that market, for a better term, worth . I | market, fora betterterm, worth . I dont have the figures and i dont want to give a misleading figure. I mean, i think we are talking hundreds of millions, because i think it was somewhere towards 20 of nhs pharmacies that were using it. So for instance, i can read here, one pharmacies said to us that we were reducing their annual charges from £7,000 to £a00. So replacing Old Fashioned bank finance with supply Chain Finance was meaningful for these pharmacies. With supply Chain Finance was meaningfulfor these pharmacies. And meaningful for these pharmacies. And also meaningfulfor these pharmacies. And also Lex Greensill explained probably saved the nhs £100 million a year too. I probably saved the nhs £100 million a ear too. ,. , a year too. I am ust referring to an article a year too. I am ust referring to an article in a year too. I am ust referring to an article in the i a year too. I am just referring to an article in the times a year too. I am just referring to an article in the times on a year too. I am just referring to an article in the times on 27th i a year too. I am just referring to| an article in the times on 27th Of March which suggests in a paragraph connecting a meeting between Lex Greensill and Richard Douglas at the Department Of Health, in that paragraph connects it with a figure of 10 billion a year. But i think the point i am making here is these are very large sums of money involved, when the Public Sector is really getting stuck into supply Chain Finance, arent they . The . T really getting stuck into supply Chain Finance, arent they . They are big figures. Chain finance, arent they . They are big figures. And Chain Finance, arent they . They are big figures, and it Chain Finance, arent they . They are big figures, and it does Chain Finance, arent they . They are big figures, and it does lead Chain Finance, arent they . They are big figures, and it does lead to i big figures, and it does lead to this whole question, why do you need an outside body to do it, why cant the nhsjust pay an outside body to do it, why cant the nhs just pay faster, an outside body to do it, why cant the nhsjust pay faster, which an outside body to do it, why cant the nhs just pay faster, which the pac might go on to when they talk to me later on. But i think that is really worth answering, because the truth is, two things. One is there is a lot of bureaucracy in government and even with the best will in the world, sometimes the early paymentjustin pugh doesnt happen. 1. 2, ithink Nick Macpherson in his evidence to you he was very clear, he said although the treasury is in favour of it in theory, in practice, early payment means the treasury borrowing more money and paying more interest on it, and so there is a cost, and i think what is useful about using supply Chain Finance, even in the Public Sector, is of course if you are paying big suppliers, you know, early, they are paying for the benefit of that, rather than the taxpayer. So i think it would be sad to sort of rule out supply Chain Finance in the Public Sector, because i think it can be very helpful for Small Businesses like pharmacies, and it can actually save money for the government at the same time. 50 money for the government at the same time,. ,. , money for the government at the same time. ,. ,. , money for the government at the same time. ,. ,. , time. So those of us who have been involved with time. So those of us who have been involved with running time. So those of us who have been involved with running businesses i involved with running businesses will know it is common practice for a board tojust will know it is common practice for a board to just work out strategically what the potential size of their business could be, what the size of their Customer Base in their market could be. What was your estimate, what was the estimate of the board of the potential size of the board of the potential size of their supply Chain Finance market within government . I of their supply Chain Finance market within government . Of their supply Chain Finance market within government . I dont have the fitures within government . I dont have the fit ures for within government . I dont have the figures for within within government . I dont have the figures for within government. Im l figures for within government. Im in the point i make is while there were lots of ideas in government, actually only one, the nhs pharmacy scheme, actually happened, so im sure you could ask things in itself or a consultant to give you an estimate. Im sure there are lots of potential uses but they have to be properly attested to make sure they are value for money and only one has happened, in my view. What the overall size of the market could be elsewhere is, you know, as you know, having run a business, working capital is, globally, an enormous number, and if supply Chain Finance can provide more working Capital Solutions there is a very big addressable market. Solutions there is a very big addressable market. There was a toint in addressable market. There was a point in my addressable market. There was a point in my briefing addressable market. There was a point in my briefing pack, addressable market. There was a point in my briefing pack, i addressable market. There was a point in my briefing pack, i cantl point in my briefing pack, i cant quite find it, but an account in the press ofjeremy hayward making introductions at the mod for Lex Greensill, suggesting that no stone should be unturned, in terms of applying supply Chain Finance to the mod� s spending. Do you recognise that as having taken place . I mods spending. Do you recognise that as having taken place . I dont know exactly that as having taken place . I dont know exactly. Look that as having taken place . I dont know exactly. Look comic that as having taken place . I dont know exactly. Look comic lex i know exactly. Look comic Lex Greensill was brought into government byjeremy, as i said in my statement to help solve an important problem and my understanding is lots of ideas were looked at, including the mod. The only one that actually came off because i think it had such a good working case was nhs pharmacies. But im sure lots of other things were looked at. I think, look, jeremy, im sure lots of other things were looked at. Ithink, look, jeremy, he has been, he is not here to defend himself, he was an outstanding Civil Servant and he was wanting to bring good people in to try and shake things up and deliver good Public Services, and it is important to put that on the record. Services, and it is important to put that on the record. When the board was considering that on the record. When the board was considering the that on the record. When the board was considering the size that on the record. When the board was considering the size of that on the record. When the board was considering the size of its i was considering the size of its market, did it think it might end up supplying supply Chain Finance to a billion, 10 billion, 100 million of Government Spending . Billion, 10 billion, 100 million of Government Spending . Well, the total amount of credit Government Spending . Well, the total amount of credit extended Government Spending . Well, the total amount of credit extended by amount of credit extended by greensill last year was 1a0 billion. That was around the world, taking in whatever it is, 150 countries. In government, it was simply this nhs pharmacy scheme, and i can give you the figure for that. I dont think, if you look at the planned expansion of greensill, government provision wasnt a huge part of it. It was really winning the big corporate clients all over the world. And that was the biggest focus for the business. What im driving at is by the time youre using this method with government, with peoples salaries, the potential size of this business was hundreds and hundreds of billions of pounds, wasnt it . Yes. Billions of pounds, wasnt it . Yes, but remember billions of pounds, wasnt it . Yes, but remember that billions of pounds, wasnt it . Yes, but remember that if billions of pounds, wasnt it . Yes, but remember that if you billions of pounds, wasnt it . Me; but remember that if you take the 143 but remember that if you take the 1a3 billion actually, not pounds, that was mostly funded through intermediaries, through banks or what have you. So the Financial Capacity to deliver that, particularly something that is low risk such as. I mean, i was a Passionate Fan of the earned app because there are lots of people who access Payday Lending that cost them access Payday Lending that cost them a lot of money and it would be much better if they could draw down their salary as they earn it. If you finance Something Like that, the risks are very low because the chance of the nhs not paying its wages. Wages are very low, so im sorry im giving you wrong answers. No, thats ok. To turn back to the covid Corporate Finance facility at the Bank Of England, where does that money come from when it issues it through that facility . The money come from when it issues it through that facility . Money come from when it issues it through that facility . The bank was actint on through that facility . The bank was acting on the through that facility . The bank was acting on the treasurys through that facility . The bank was acting on the treasurys behalf. I i acting on the treasurys behalf. I dont. I mean, it is a Bank Of England facility that of course is there to buy commercial paper as an asset, and obviously if those Companies Continue to succeed, then the costs of that purchase will be relatively low. In the costs of that purchase will be relatively low. Relatively low. In the argon it is financed by t relatively low. In the jargon it is financed by reserves, relatively low. In the jargon it is financed by reserves, which i relatively low. In the jargon it is financed by reserves, which of l financed by reserves, which of course means it is new money. The corporate covid finance facility is new money coming to into existence. So wasnt the proposition you were making. I so wasnt the proposition you were makint. So wasnt the proposition you were makint. ,. , so wasnt the proposition you were makint. ,. ,. , making. I remember a conversation we had about making. I remember a conversation we had about money making. I remember a conversation we had about money creation. Making. I remember a conversation we had about money creation. But i we had about money creation. But lets not get into it now because im running out of time. The point im running out of time. The point im making is that when you were arguing greensill should use the Corporate Finance facility, what you are effectively doing i think is arguing these securitisations should take advantage of the Bank Of Englands money creation, isnt that right . Englands money creation, isnt that ritht . , englands money creation, isnt that ritht . ,. ,. , englands money creation, isnt that riyht . ,. ,. , englands money creation, isnt that ritht . ,. ,. , right . Greensill at no point was askint right . Greensill at no point was asking for right . Greensill at no point was asking for a right . Greensill at no point was asking for a loan right . Greensill at no point was asking for a loan or right . Greensill at no point was asking for a loan or a right . Greensill at no point was asking for a loan or a bailout i right . Greensill at no point was asking for a loan or a bailout ori asking for a loan or a bailout or direct Government Support. What we do or what we did was go to vodafone and say we will pay your suppliers early, you pay us in 60 or 90 days, create a bond based around that, and if the ccff had invested money in bonds like that would go directly into supply bases. Thats what these things are, so they are quite like commercial payment. Things are, so they are quite like commercial payment. Finally, with re t ret i commercial payment. Finally, with regret i must commercial payment. Finally, with regret i must ask commercial payment. Finally, with regret i must ask you commercial payment. Finally, with regret i must ask you a commercial payment. Finally, with regret i must ask you a delicate i regret i must ask you a delicate question because if ive dont ask it, it will be asked elsewhere. Were you at any point while you were Prime Minister directly advised by Lex Greensill on the issue of supply Chain Finance . And Lex Greensill on the issue of supply chainfinance . And in Lex Greensill on the issue of supply Chain Finance . And in the cause of those conversations at any stage did he intimate that subsequently you might end up working for greensill . The answer to the first question is he worked in downing street, produced this one initiative which was a combination of private sector firms signing up to do supply Chain Finance and the nhs pharmacy scheme. That came to me from Civil Servants in the proper way but i think it was largely his work, and we announced that in october 2012, and as far as i was concerned that was a successful scheme. I was concerned that was a successfulscheme. I i was concerned that was a successful scheme. I think i met him twice in downing street and can confirm at no stage did he ever suggest i would go and work with him orfor him afterwards. Suggest i would go and work with him or for him afterwards. That happened after i left office and i think thats important point. Thank you very much thats important point. Thank you very much. Thank thats important point. Thank you very much. Thank you, thats important point. Thank you very much. Thank you, steve. I thats important point. Thank you very much. Thank you, steve. Mri very much. Thank you, steve. Mr cameron. Very much. Thank you, steve. Mr cameron. Eid very much. Thank you, steve. Mr cameron, eid mubarak. Very much. Thank you, steve. Mr cameron, eid mubarak. Im i very much. Thank you, steve. Mr cameron, eid mubarak. Im spending the afternoon with you instead of my family and im looking forward to joining them. We have established Sanjeev Gupta was a customer of greensill. Did you know how much money was being loaned to his empire, . I money was being loaned to his emtire, . , � t. Money was being loaned to his emtire, . , �. , empire, . I dont have the exact fitures. Empire, . I dont have the exact figures i empire, . I dont have the exact figures. I wasnt empire, . I dont have the exact figures. I wasnt on empire, . I dont have the exact figures. I wasnt on the empire, . I dont have the exact figures. I wasnt on the credit i figures. I wasnt on the Credit Committee so i wasnt responsible for those decisions, so i dont have the figure. For those decisions, so i dont have the fit ure. For those decisions, so i dont have the fiture. ,. , for those decisions, so i dont have the figure for those decisions, so i dont have the fiture. ,. ,. , i. The figure. The question was did you know how much the figure. The question was did you know how much money the figure. The question was did you know how much money was the figure. The question was did you know how much money was being i the figure. The question was did you i know how much money was being loaned out to guptas empire . Ila. I know how much money was being loaned out to guptas empire . Out to guptas empire . No, i dont have the figure. Out to guptas empire . No, i dont have the figure. You out to guptas empire . No, i dont have the figure. You didnt out to guptas empire . No, i dont have the figure. You didnt know . | out to guptas empire . No, i dont| have the figure. You didnt know . I knew there have the figure. You didnt know . I knew there was have the figure. You didnt know . I knew there was an have the figure. You didnt know . I knew there was an issue have the figure. You didnt know . I knew there was an issue about i have the figure. You didnt know . I i knew there was an issue about client concentration, i asked questions about that, i made sure there was a plan to deal with that and i think thatis plan to deal with that and i think that is one of the Important Reasons for this business not succeeding. The Financial Times article in 2018 spoke about the greensill link and described it as financial alchemy, and yet you talked earlier about doing the Due Diligence and it seems like for someone who ran our country, that perhaps that Due Diligence didnt serve you well ultimately. Im going to move on to another question. We established in the earlier comments and also the evidence you submitted that you lobbied the chancellor. You also lobbied the chancellor. You also lobbied the chancellor. You also lobbied the then business minister injune 2020. His department was responsible for the British Business bank, and my understanding is that you were pressing for a maximum loan to greensill that could be made under the treasurys coronavirus Large Business interruption loan scheme which was increased ultimately from 50 million to 200 million, and that that was crucial. And so could we infer from what ultimately happened, which is that eight times £50 million of loans were split and mr greensills company were able to then give that loan to glg companies, that intensive lobbying effort and ultimately did pay off . H0. Intensive lobbying effort and ultimately did pay off . Ultimately did pay off . No, i wouldnt say ultimately did pay off . No, i wouldnt say that ultimately did pay off . No, i wouldnt say that at ultimately did pay off . No, i wouldnt say that at all ultimately did pay off . No, i i wouldnt say that at all because ultimately did pay off . No, i wouldnt say that at all because the greensill approach as i understand it, the British Business bank to be accredited as a lender under the schemes, something which i had no involvement with, and it was accredited as i think were some other Fintech Firms, notjust traditional banks, so that was a successful approach. When greensill asked to be raised to the higher level, that was ultimately rejected by the British Business bank and the treasury. So no, i wouldnt agree with that formulation at all. So can i ust with that formulation at all. So can i just check. With that formulation at all. So can ijust check, did with that formulation at all. So can i just check, did you with that formulation at all. So can i just check, did you discuss with that formulation at all. So can i just check, did you discuss the i ijust check, did you discuss the British Business bank as a possible route to getting funding for greensill actually meeting with the Bank Of England . N greensill actually meeting with the Bank Of England . Bank of england . I dont believe i did. As i Bank Of England . I dont believe i did as i say. Bank of england . I dont believe i did as i say. I Bank Of England . I dont believe i did. As i say, i wasnt Bank Of England . I dont believe i did. As i say, i wasnt at Bank Of England . I dont believe i did. As i say, i wasnt at all did. As i say, i wasnt at all involved until the moment of asking whether it could go up to a higher level in the reddish Business Bank accreditation process. My involvement was all about the ccff because thats where we were most enthusiastic about having a product that we thought was even better than what they were suggesting and fitted in quite well. This what they were suggesting and fitted in uuite well. , a, i. What they were suggesting and fitted in uuite well. , a,. , in quite well. This so you are re in quite well. This so you are pretty confident in quite well. This so you are pretty confident you in quite well. This so you are pretty confident you didnt i in quite well. This so you are pretty confident you didnt discuss the other scheme,. Imust i must qualify something. Richard sharpe, i must qualify something. Richard sharpe, i i must qualify something. Richard sharpe, i did i must qualify something. Richard sharpe, i did have i i must qualify something. Richard sharpe, i did have a l i must qualify something. Richard sharpe, i did have a text exchange. He wasnt at the bank at that stage. Sorry, your question about nigel wolman. Did that stage. Sorry, your question about nigel wolman. That stage. Sorry, your question about nigel wolman. Did you have any discussions about about nigel wolman. Did you have any discussions about the about nigel wolman. Did you have any discussions about the british discussions about the British Business bank as a possible route to getting funding with Nigel Boardman . Did you have any conversation with him in the last couple of years . He was after all the board member and is leading the inquiry that the current Prime Minister has announced. I current Prime Minister has announced. Current Prime Minister has announced. , �. ,. , announced. I havent got any record of conversations announced. I havent got any record of conversations with announced. I havent got any record of conversations with him announced. I havent got any record of conversations with him in announced. I havent got any record of conversations with him in the of conversations with him in the last couple of years, i can double check that. I certainly havent discussed any of these issues with him, but im going to take part in this inquiry and im seeing him next week. I take part in this inquiry and im seeing him next week. Take part in this inquiry and im seeing him next week. I hope you can understand why seeing him next week. I hope you can understand why im seeing him next week. I hope you can understand why im asking seeing him next week. I hope you can understand why im asking these understand why im asking these questions, because there is a relationship between people in power or people who have been in power like yourself and the spectre of the billion pounds as others have pointed out the public money, the loss to the taxpayer, and what we have heard today, you know, you are suggesting. Frankly it feels like you arent taking responsibility for what has happened. I want to come back to the point about mr greensill. When he gave evidence on tuesday, i asked the question about the loans to mr guptas companies. Can you confirm for me the press reports that greece will loaned a total of 400 million in the clbils . I dont have that information. I wasnt involved in any of the lending decision sol wasnt involved in any of the lending decision so i dont have that information and cant confirm that. 50 that information and cant confirm that,. ,. , � that information and cant confirm that. , � ~. , that information and cant confirm that. , �. , not that information and cant confirm i that not 10096. That. So you dont know . Not 100 , no. As that. So you dont know . Not 10096, no. As a former that. So you dont know . Not 10096, no. As a former prime that. So you dont know . Not 10096, no. As a former Prime Minister that. So you dont know . Not 10096, no. As a former Prime Minister it no. As a former Prime Minister it seems you no. As a former Prime Minister it seems you either no. As a former Prime Minister it seems you either conveniently i no. As a former Prime Minister it seems you either conveniently turned a blind eye to things or didnt do the Due Diligence and your reputation is now in tatters, mr cameron. ~ reputation is now in tatters, mr cameron reputation is now in tatters, mr cameron. ~. ,. ,. , cameron. Well, i was an adviser to the company cameron. Well, i was an adviser to the company and cameron. Well, i was an adviser to the company and thought cameron. Well, i was an adviser to the company and thought i cameron. Well, i was an adviser to the company and thought i could i cameron. Well, i was an adviser to i the company and thought i could help the company and thought i could help the company and thought i could help the company with some important tasks which included its International Expansion and winning customers and working with partners, but i wasnt involved in lending decisions. I wasnt a director, i wasnt on the credit or Risk Committees, and i think there is a perfectly good way of working with a business. You are not responsible for the day to day decisions, you are not responsible for the lending decisions but nonetheless you are working with the team to try to help them expand the business. I talked about the Due Diligence i did before joining the company obviously, i greatly regret this company has gone into administration and there are lessons to be learned from that. The issue here is lessons to be learned from that. The issue here is that mr greensills company did find a way of circumventing the 50 million cap, and ultimately £400 million worth of government taxpayer funded loans were made available to gupta, and you know very well the risks to steelworkers, thousands of them, the wider impact on people and the taxpayer. Should you not take some responsibility for what has happened . Because it seems like. Well you are famously known as teflon man. You are a great survivor, you know. No one has taken responsibility, and yet taxpayers are going to be. Being. Are already affected and will continue to be affected by this. I already affected and will continue to be affected by this. To be affected by this. I take responsibility to be affected by this. I take responsibility for to be affected by this. I take responsibility for my to be affected by this. I take| responsibility for my decision to be affected by this. I take responsibility for my decision to work with this business, i take responsibility for the decisions i made with respect of contacting the government for all of those things. As i said to you, i hope these steel jobs survive. I watched the evidence about the cost of the taxpayer, i really think your committee will be able to ask the treasury for an accurate breakdown of what these costs might be because we have and i think seeing those. That costs might be because we have and i think seeing those. Think seeing those. At the very least it will think seeing those. At the very least it will be think seeing those. At the very least it will be 400 think seeing those. At the very least it will be 400 million, think seeing those. At the very least it will be 400 million, a l think seeing those. At the very i least it will be 400 million, a very conservative estimate, because those are the loans. I conservative estimate, because those are the loans are the loans. I think the difficulty are the loans. I think the difficulty is are the loans. I think the difficulty is it are the loans. I think the difficulty is it is are the loans. I think the difficulty is it is a are the loans. I think the l difficulty is it is a criticism are the loans. I think the difficulty is it is a criticism of greensill that it was overexposed to gupta and lent too much money to gupta, but if you are saying that its hard to say at the same time that it wasnt trying to support jobs in the Steel Industry. I think perhaps the problem is there needed to be more scepticism from greensill about gupta and what was happening rather than believing that actually the vision would be turned to reality, but we are getting a bit beyond our brief. Its going to be a while before we know how this works out. But i hope we will be able to have as many steeljobs in this country as we possibly can. What have as many steeljobs in this country as we possibly can. What im t in to country as we possibly can. What im trying to establish, country as we possibly can. What im trying to establish, what country as we possibly can. What im trying to establish, what im country as we possibly can. What im trying to establish, what im trying i trying to establish, what im trying to understand is what the actual overall impact has been. You have been given a very hard time about the lobbying operation, and i would say that ultimately from what happened, your association with greensill and the lobbying operation that took place did actually in the end benefit the company that you were working with. I end benefit the company that you were working with. Were working with. I dont follow that argument were working with. I dont follow that argument im were working with. I dont follow that argument im afraid were working with. I dont follow| that argument im afraid because what we were asking for, an extension of the ccff to include supply Chain Finance didnt happen. The greensills accreditation with the British Business bank didnt involve any lobbying at all. It was greensill going through the accreditation process, and, like some other fintech companies, it was accredited as a cbils lender. The argument i dont follow because ultimately the lobbying effort was unsuccessful. The treasury gave good reason for that as i said in my evidence earlier. Reason for that as i said in my evidence earlier. The treasury also announced evidence earlier. The treasury also announced this evidence earlier. The treasury also announced this new evidence earlier. The treasury also announced this new scheme. Evidence earlier. The treasury also announced this new scheme. It evidence earlier. The treasury also | announced this new scheme. It was the Treasury Department not the British Business bank, which was the cbils scheme. So anyway the point here is that this company ultimately did manage to access through these eight different £50 million loans, access loans which were then provided to companies associated with mr gupta, which has left the taxpayer short. With mr gupta, which has left the taxpayershort. I mean, can ijust say that having listened to the evidence session and your response, i think what people will be really deeply concerned and alarmed about is how you allowed frankly someone who was, you know, using you here. At best he was using you, mr greensill, and at worst, frankly exploiting your reputation and bringing the office of the former Prime Minister into disrepute, and you kind of went along with it. You played along and you should have been much, much more careful about the Due Diligence and you turned a blind eye on things that were blindingly obvious. Blind eye on things that were blindingly obvious. Obviously i take a different view blindingly obvious. Obviously i take a different view which blindingly obvious. Obviously i take a different view which is blindingly obvious. Obviously i take a different view which is that blindingly obvious. Obviously i take a different view which is that i a different view which is that i chose to work for greensill because i thought it had a good core product in extending credit and early payment to small firms in our country. I believe that could be expanded with huge benefits, i believed this could have been a uk fintech success story. Sadly that hasnt happened to be the case but i did do Due Diligence, i did look at the board, i looked at the arrangement the company had in place but obviously i deeply regret this company has failed and that has consequences. find company has failed and that has consequences. Company has failed and that has conseuuences. ~. ,. , consequences. And huge consequences, and those of consequences. And huge consequences, and those of us consequences. And huge consequences, and those of us who consequences. And huge consequences, and those of us who have consequences. And huge consequences, and those of us who have worked consequences. And huge consequences, and those of us who have worked with i and those of us who have worked with you, it is bitterly disappointing and frankly this particular scandal is a huge. I mean the reputation is a huge. I mean the reputation is so damaging to our democracy in terms of real consequences to real peoples lives. Terms of real consequences to real peoples lives peoples lives. Well, the point i would make peoples lives. Well, the point i would make is peoples lives. Well, the point i would make is actually peoples lives. Well, the point i would make is actually in peoples lives. Well, the point i would make is actually in our. Would make is actually in our country for all i think we can improve transparency and rules around lobbying and Everything Else is people can see when businesses meet with the government, we know that. In lots of countries we dont know that. And before i became Prime Minister nobody had any idea who was meeting with government. That is transparent. Multiclient lobbies have to declare who they lobby on behalf of. Of course there is more we can do to improve the systems but ultimately a company i work with major suggestions of the government, the government turned it down and the government turned it down and the Civil Servants i think behaved impeccably throughout and have explained that what was done was perfectly appropriate and a sensible set of conversations were gone into. So i take a different view of how this happened. The sad thing is the company itself has now failed and jobs have been lost and that has real world consequences. Buti jobs have been lost and that has realworld consequences. But i put it to ou, realworld consequences. But i put it to you. Mr realworld consequences. But i put it to you, mr cameron, realworld consequences. But i put it to you, mr cameron, that realworld consequences. But i put it to you, mr cameron, that what i it to you, mr cameron, that what happened, and this was at a time when the government was creating. Dealing with public procurement contracts. We now know there was a separate vip lane for government contracts and your intense lobbying is a former Prime Minister made it very uncomfortable for ministers and officials. And in the end, what i put to you is that yes, the treasury and others said no to you politely, but they found another route for you, which was through the British Business bank and through the department, and if you look at the chronology of the announcements that were made, the coronavirus Large Business interruption loans, it was done after that intensive lobbying and i put it to you that actually you were successful ultimately in making sure that that company did benefit. And this stuff smacks of favouritism and power. Those in power like yourself with powerful connections and relationships getting access to Decision Makers and having their access to the vip lane, the fast lane into what you want, and that is fundamentally damaging to our democracy and it puts the Civil Service, the impartial nature of our Civil Service, in a very difficult position, and you should have known better, mr cameron. Not least because everything you said about lobbying, you were the architect of the lobbying act, you should have known better and it is bitterly disappointing. Frankly i have no pleasure in having to sit in this meeting with the former Prime Minister, 0k . Meeting with the former Prime Minister, ok . In yourwords meeting with the former Prime Minister, ok . In your words you were the future ones. I have no pleasure in being in this situation, sitting in being in this situation, sitting in front of you, and for the country to see the former Prime Minister being used in this way by frankly somebody who was acting like a con artist. I somebody who was acting like a con artist. , ,. ,. , ~ artist. I would ust perhaps make one artist. I would ust perhaps make point. Artist. I would ust perhaps make point. On artist. I would just perhaps make one point. On the artist. I would just perhaps make one point. On the application artist. I would just perhaps make one point. On the application to. Artist. I would just perhaps make i one point. On the application to the one point. 0n the application to the British Business bank, i mean i do believe that was a separate application process in which the treasury wasnt involved, but it is a very good question for your committee to take up with the treasury about whether that was a separate application process. I believe it was but that might be one outcome of this conversation. Im outcome of this conversation. Im very grateful outcome of this conversation. Im very grateful for your time, outcome of this conversation. Im very gratefulforyourtime, im very gratefulfor your time, im simply saying it is deeply disappointing and i hope out of this episode and that experience that you have had, we can make sure no Prime Minister is ever caught up in a scandal of this nature because it is bad for our democracy, bad for our impartial Civil Service. You will never be disassociated from the office of Prime Minister around the world, and even though you are not from my party, i have huge respect for the position of Prime Minister and a former Prime Minister, and it is bitterly disappointing what happened. This whole episode is appalling for our country and our democracy. Appalling for our country and our democracy appalling for our country and our democra. , ,. ,. , democracy. David, unless you have an hinu democracy. David, unless you have anything further democracy. David, unless you have anything further to democracy. David, unless you have anything further to say, democracy. David, unless you have anything further to say, i democracy. David, unless you have anything further to say, i think anything further to say, i think that brings us to the end of this session that brings us to the end of this session. Its been a very difficult session session. Its been a very difficult session i session. Its been a very difficult session. I think for you david session. Its been a very difficult session. Ithink for you david in session. Its been a very difficult session. I think for you david in a number session. I think for you david in a number of session. I think for you david in a number of different ways. Undoubtedly it has been extremely robust undoubtedly it has been extremely robust with you. However, we are a courteous robust with you. However, we are a courteous committee. We do very much appreciate courteous committee. We do very much appreciate you having appeared before appreciate you having appeared before us today. I know you have found before us today. I know you have found it before us today. I know you have found it difficult in part, but you did stand found it difficult in part, but you did stand up and be counted and come and sit did stand up and be counted and come and sit in did stand up and be counted and come and sit in front of this committee and sit in front of this committee and take and sit in front of this committee and take our questions, and for that we are and take our questions, and for that we are grateful. And that concludes this session. Order, order. Well, this session. Order, order. Well, that this session. Order, order. Well, that is the end of more than two hour session of the former Prime Minister David Cameron in front of the house of commons treasury select committee. We saw it was chaired by the conservative mp mel stride. The former Prime Minister David Cameron said it was a very painful moment to come back to this place he loved very much, a virtual hearing but he was referring to the house of commons, the houses of parliament. He said he was paid far more by greensill than he earned as a Prime Minister, but he had a big economic interest in the success of Greensill Capital, but he had no sense in april last year that greensill was in danger of collapse, which of course it went on to do. He said of his role with greensill that lobbying the uk government was never intended to be part of his role, but he did contact Prime Minister he did contact ministers directly. He said the motivation for contacting the government was he thought he had a really good idea to extend credit to thousands of businesses that were struggling. The chairman said mr cameron had sent what he described as a barrage of texts and messages to ministers and officials when the pandemic broke. Many people would conclude at the time of your lobbying your opportunity to make a large amount of money was under threat, he said. However, mr cameron refused on several occasions to say exactly how he would benefit financially to the extent to which he was being paid. He also said he hadnt totted up how many times he hadnt totted up how many times he had used greensills private plane to visit his third home in cornwall. Much to reflect upon. Jane hill will be with you in the next few minutes for the bbc news at five but lets take a look at the Weather Forecast now with tomasz schafernaker. Well, hit and miss downpours again today from towering cumulus clouds, which then form into cumulonimbus clouds, bringing thunder and lightning, hail as well. Not everybody is getting the downpours today. In fact, some eastern parts of the country are enjoying some sunshine. This is where we have the highest temperatures, but the worst of the weather has been so far across more southern areas, very close to the southern counties here, running along the m4. Some big downpours around southern wales and the south west of england, too. But also showers breaking out further north, where earlier on we had mostly dry weather. So, the second half of the afternoon will see showers brewing through parts of lancashire, into the lake district, southern parts of scotland. But areas from Newcastle Down to norwich, i think, a fine afternoon with some sunshine. And the evening is looking pretty clear, as well. Before cloud rolls and of the north sea. So it is going turn quite cloudy and murky here in the north and the east, whereas in the south through the night we will continue to have on and off showers. But they will not be quite as heavy. Overnight temperatures will be around 6 9, so we are not talking about a frost tonight. Here is the weather map for friday. You can see we are sort of in between weather systems. One weather system approaching of the atlantic, a little bit of whether they are across parts of scandinavia. Of weather they are across parts of scandinavia. However, that is not going to stop the showers from forming. We are expecting showers to brew in the afternoon across some western and southern areas. Again, some of them could be heavy. But i do not think there will be as many showers around tomorrow. More than anything, i think it is going to be a fairly cloudy day across some eastern areas, but some sunshine will poke through those clouds, and temperatures will be between 12 16. Now, here is a look at the weekend. So, friday night, saturday, and then eventually into sunday, we are going to see yet another low pressure nearing, and that means further showers for many of us. So a very unsettled weekend on the way, i think. Thunder and lightning again on the cards, hail and those hit and miss downpours. So this very showery, cool theme of weather is going to continue to the course of the weekend, after a brief lull, at least for some of us, tomorrow. You can see the outlook lots of shower symbols on the forecast they are for the next few days, with temperatures rather disappointing for the time of the year. But it is what it is. Goodbye. This is bbc news. The headlines former Prime Minister David Cameron insists he broke no rules when lobbying ministers over the now collapsed firm Greensill Capital. I accept it is a strong argument that having a former minister engaged on the behalf of any interest no matter what the motives are cause can be open to misinterpretation. Are cause can be open to misinterpretation. Are cause can be open to misinterretation. , misinterpretation. The other night at the cancer misinterpretation. The other night at the Cancer Centre misinterpretation. The other night at the Cancer Centre hospital misinterpretation. The other night at the Cancer Centre hospital in i at the Cancer Centre hospital in Central London where we have been talking about the backlog in Waiting Lists all lists all day although talking to staff and patients here actually most have been able to carry on with their Cancer Treatment right through the pandemic. So there is not a backlog. New data suggests covid cases in england