Its time for some hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. Eight decades after the slaughter of Millions Ofjews began in Eastern Europe, the truth of what happened is still denied by some. My guest today is silvia foti, an American Writer whose grandfather was lithuanian, a man hailed as an heroic patriot who paid with his life resisting the soviets. But according to his granddaughter, Jonas Noreika was no hero. He had the blood of thousands ofjews on his hands. Now she has chosen to speak out, angering many in lithuania. So what happens when truth trumps Family Loyalty . Silvia foti in chicago, welcome to hardtalk. Hello, thank you. Yours is an extraordinary story to tell. Lets begin by establishing why you chose to dig so deep into the life of your grandfather, who, of course, was a man you had never met, because he was executed by the soviets in 1910. So why did you go so deep into his life . Um. Its kind of. I sort of stumbled into it, to be honest. I got the story from my mother on her deathbed, and i thought i was going to write about a hero when i started this. I had no idea about his dark past, and it really only came about when i was burying my mother in lithuania and visiting the school named after him, when the director just very casually mentioned that, your grandfather was accused of killing jews. And i almost fainted when he said that because that was the very first time i had ever heard that. I was 38 years old, my mother had just died. My grandmother had just died. I thought i was going to work on a wonderful story about my grandfather, world war ii hero, who fought against the communists. And when he said that, that was the first time that it really hit me like a ton of bricks. I went into denial for ten years. I assumed it was just communist propaganda. I really only focused on his heroic side for ten years. Thats what i thought i would write about. And all these three bookshelves behind me is information my mother left me to write the story, and i spent ten years going through all that. I came across, however, a document that started to change my mind, and he had written something, in 1933, called raise your head, lithuanian he was only 22 years old when he wrote it, and when i opened it up. You know, ive got it right here next to me. When i opened it up, i thought i was just going to read another patriotic little brochure about how wonderful it is to be lithuanian. And it was really not like that. It was all about why lithuanians should not buy anything from jews, why lithuanians should start Boycotting Everything from jews, why lithuania is only for lithuanians, why the jews are considered foreigners. And it was like this for 32 pages. Yeah, ive read snatches of it, silvia, and its deeply, profoundly anti semitic. And also, ive seen other documentation which youve put in the public domain, which suggests that, by the late � 305, he was an admirer of adolf hitler and benito mussolini. I mean, these things he was writing about, your wider family must have known some of this stuff, so when you approached them, when you were commissioned by your dying mum to write the full history of your grandfather, obviously you couldnt discuss it with your mum, shed passed away, but as you began to discuss it with the wider family, were people prepared to acknowledge thatjonas was indeed a fascist sympathiser, an anti semite . And was that something that you could have a discussion with them about . Not at all. They all told me it was communist propaganda, and like a good lithuanian, thats what i believed initially too. I dont know if they knew about this brochure. My mother must� ve known it because it was in her archive. My grandmother must have known it, but they never talked about it with me. I dont know that my father knew about it. He certainly never brought it up then. And, really, everybody believed that this was just communist propaganda and, you know, lithuanians were the victims of two regimes, the nazis and the communists, and that lithuanians are just innocent of killing jews. All the jews were killed by the nazis. So. Thats all. Right. So now were getting to the nub of this very dark story, because once you had read some of the stuff youve just described to me and once youd begun to realise that to make good on your promise to write your grandfathers story, you were going to have to dig and dig into dark places. You went to lithuania, i think, for quite some time, and you talked to an awful lot of people. And this is where it gets to the absolute crux of the darkness. You, ithink, believe you have found absolutely overwhelming evidence and proof that your grandfather was intimately involved in the mass murder ofjews. Am i right . I thought i would dig into it to exonerate him. So thats how i initially talked myself into digging into it. But when i was in lithuania, you know, i talked to several people, and it really became very clear that he played a very large role in killing 1,800 jews in plunge, which was the first town, the first of three towns that he was involved in. So, um, you know. Now, lets be clear here, because the detail matters. When you say he was very heavily involved, do you have evidence that he either killed jews himself or he commissioned. . Because he was a brigade. Sort of militia leader. Hed been fighting the russians, the soviets, and then, of course, the nazis were encroaching on lithuanian territory. I believe the nazis reached out to some of these militia groups, trying to enlist them as helpers in driving the soviets out. But do you have evidence that in this period, in the summer of 1941, your grandfather actually committed murder himself or commissioned others to commit murder . I dont have evidence that he committed murder himself, but there is evidence. He was the commandant of this area of zemaitija, which is the lowlands, and he used plunge, a little town, as sort of his headquarters to fight against the communists. The rebellion started june 22nd 1941, which is what i had always heard. I had not heard until, of course, i got deep into the story was that it was the beginning of the Holocaust In Lithuania and the beginning of operation barbarossa. So he was the head of zemaitija, that area, and there is no way for someone to be the head of the militia and not understand what was happening to thejews. On top of that, there was a witness, who was his secretary, and he wrote a memoir that said that Jonas Noreika gave the order to kill these 2,000 jews. So he was a live witness. Yeah. I mean, ive looked at the detail you provide, and you basically have this Secretary Working in noreikas office, describing how the commandant, that is noreika, said to him, i have issued the order to shoot every last one of them. Now, thats extraordinarily powerful, but i guess in a court of law, people would say thats oral testimony. Some might even say its hearsay, it isnt written documentary evidence. Is that something of a problem for you . Because now, in lithuania, everything you have written, and we can see a picture of the book youve written behind you, the nazis granddaughter, everything youve written is coming under the closest of close scrutiny. Are you absolutely sure in your mind that this accusation youre laying at the door of your own grandfather, of being notjust an accessory, but being a key part of the first months of the Holocaust In Lithuania, it is absolutely irrefutable, is it . In my mind, yes. You know, im the last one who wanted to find this out. I really wanted a very pure, pristine, angelic saint as a grandfather. Thats what i wanted. Thats how i was raised to believe how he was. In a court of law. Its before a court of law now, so i guess well see what happens. But, you know, im a journalist, and as a journalist, you have. You know, were supposed to find at least three pieces of evidence to corroborate. Well, there were more than three pieces. As weve alluded to in our conversation already, Jonas Noreika is a huge figure in lithuanias modern history. He is regarded as a hero, a martyr, a guy who gave his life resisting the soviets, because, as i said, he was executed in 19117 for standing up to the soviet occupation, invasion of lithuania. But those who defend him to this very day in lithuania make two points. First of all, they say you have to understand that lithuanians were victims twice over. They were threatened both from the west by the nazis, and from the east by the russians. And that lithuanians really had no agency at this time of 1941, � 42 in their own countrys condition, that they were victims, you know, above all else. So thats point one. And point two is that Jonas Noreika was eventually put into a Concentration Camp by the nazis, and his defenders say theres your evidence that he was no nazi. Well, point number one there was a provisional government of lithuania, and there was this lithuanian activist front, kind of this militia, and they were extremely anti semitic, and theyre the ones who led this uprising against the soviets and won. The part that has been hidden to lithuanians is how deeply they worked with the germans to have this uprising. And the other part that was hidden from me, at least, was that, um. You know, much of this was probably nazi propaganda to begin with, but i think the lithuanians just ate it up, and that is that every single jew, from the tiniest baby to the oldest grandmother, is a communist spy. And so thatjust gave lithuanians Licence To Kill everyone. And, erm, you know, if it were just the military aged men who werejewish, that would be one thing. But if it was everybody, everybody with just a drop Ofjewish Blood in them, thats a completely different story. That is beyond war. Mm. This is genocide. And address my point too, that actuallyJonas Noreika ended up in a Concentration Camp, which suggests that the nazis did not regard him as an entirely sympathetic figure. Yeah, this tripped me out for a long time, too, because i kept asking myself, how could a jew killer end up in a nazi Concentration Camp . That makes no sense to me. Well, you have to go really deep into the details most of the jews were killed in 1941 and my grandfather played a big role in all that. Now its 1943, after the battle of stalingrad, and now the nazis are losing. And now all of a sudden, my grandfather and a lot of other lithuanians have a lot of courage to stand up to the nazis, and thats what he did. It was right at that time that he started to stand up to the nazis. It was not to savejews, though. Mm. It was to get lithuania free. For the purposes of time, im now going to demand that we fast forwa rd all the way to 2018, 2019, cos what is extraordinary is a twist to your story. All this investigation into the evil, into the darkness, right at your own familys doorstep. You then decided you were going to confront lithuania with this. You were going tojoin a campaign to have your own grandfathers name taken off all of the different memorials that celebrate him still inside the country. And you joined forces with a descendant of lithuanian jews, whose family had been wiped out, and you believe some of them wiped out by your own grandfather. Hes called grant gochin. And from grant gochin� s point of view, your family represent the reason why hundreds of his forefathers, his. You know, his predecessors in his family were eliminated. And he is so mindful, of course, that 95 of all lithuanianjews were eliminated in the course of the nazi rule in lithuania. So this is a man who has every reason to regard you with the deepest of suspicion. Yes. I think he was bowled over, though, by the fact that i was coming out against my grandfather and i wasnt defending him. So i think i was one of the first lithuanians that he met that was willing to look into the holocaust of lithuania and really, you know, believe that lithuanians, unfortunately, played a large role in it, and it wasnt just the german nazis. And ijoined. He started. He started a whole lawsuit against the Genocide Centre of lithuania. And here i think, again, i need tojust flag up something quite remarkable that you and he, in the end, were fighting against the so called genocide and Resistance Research centre in lithuania and also against the Museum Of Genocide Victims in vilnius, lithuania. These institutions, which you would think would be in the lead, telling the truth about lithuanias troubled history and connections to the holocaust, were, in fact, it seems, in your view, covering everything up. Yeah, i mean, this. To me, this is a problem. They are basing my grandfathers heroism on the kgb documents. Now, normally, they would foam at the mouth if anybody looked at a kgb document and used that as their proof. But their entire case is based on 3,000 pages of transcripts of the interrogations of my grandfather. And they were interrogating him for leading a rebellion against the soviets. Thats all they cared about. They really did not care about the massacre ofjews, yet it was still early days for the soviets. So in those 3,000 pages, there is no evidence that he killed jews, but in their own archives, their own lithuanian archives, in siauliai, when he was District Chief of siauliai, during the nazi occupation, he wrote about 1,000 documents. Of those 1,000, 70 have to do with the holocaust. So his signature is on 70 of these documents that have to do with the holocaust, creating a ghetto, sending jews to a ghetto, rounding up thejews, collecting their property, distributing their property, and even details of, like, finding barbed wire and nails fora ghetto, so, erm. Silvia. To me, this is pretty overwhelming. Well, the whole story is overwhelming. I mean, here you sit as an american but, of course, of lithuanian heritage. Lithuania, this country that means so much to you still, it seems to me doesnt want to hear your story. You fought this court case to get the plaque honouring your grandfather taken off the academy of sciences. You lost the case. The plaque was then vandalised, but it has been replaced by the authorities, so it still sits there. Theres still a school in lithuania named after your grandfather. Theres a road named after your grandfather. Hes still, in the collective memory, regarded as a hero. How do you feel about that . Erm, i am not surprised, you know, on one level, because i. I kind of expected this. It took me a long time to look at the truth, but i dug very deeply. Most of them have not dug this deeply. They� re just, you know, in denial. And its all communist propaganda. They all think im a russian spy, with my chicago accent. So i feel very sad that Lithuania Cannotjust take responsibility for what happened. This is 80 years ago. We can do it, we can look into our dark side of our souls and realise we did something really horrible and we should. How. We should really admit it. Right. How far do you feel lithuanias culpability goes . Because there are campaigners, for example, efraim zuroff, who is a Key Investigator at the Simon Wiesenthal center. He says, and hes partly drawing on what has happened to the story ofJonas Noreika and the way its treated in lithuania. He says lithuania has been a locomotive pulling the whole train of Holocaust Distortion across Eastern Europe. Would you go that far . Oh, its colourful. Maybe. I dont know. Poland, too. I dont know polands history, though, but as much as i do lithuanias, lithuanians. Look, the holocaust would not have happened if it were not for the nazis. Probably what would have happened were, you know, pogroms, here and there, but not the entire decimation of 95 of thejewish population, erm. They could not. The nazis, there were only 1,000 nazis in lithuania during that time. Not a single. You know, wheres the Nazi Resistance from lithuania . Not a single nazi was shot. Not a single nazi was killed during the entire nazi occupation. And yet, over 200,000 jews were shot and killed. Thats their Nazi Resistance. How much. So they had. Sylvia. Sylvia, how much does this matter today . The key event were talking about, the mass murder of 1,800 jews, that you believe your grandfather was directly and intimately involved with, happened 80 years ago. Getting to the truth and telling the truth to all lithuanians and all of the world, does that matter so much 80 years on . I think 220,000 lives that were murdered needlessly, innocent civilians, matters deeply. This is a sin. I mean, lithuanias soul is at stake and it really needs to redeem itself. I do think it matters. You say lithuanias soul is at stake. I am very intrigued by what has happened inside your family. You have said that you would never have written this book if your mother or your grandmother were still alive. And you honestly say that your grandmother told you before she died, you should let history lie, there is no need to do this digging around. You ignored your grandmother. You did not find the story your mother wanted you to find. On a personal level, do you find this very difficult . It has been very difficult. You know, i mean, i. There were times i was really depressed about all this. There were times ijust wanted to not continue with this any more. There were times ijust wanted to throw the whole manuscript away and give up. But i also feel like the storys too important. You know, i eventually came back to it and i feel like the story is very important. And its notjustJonas Noreika, its lithuania. And its notjust lithuania. Its other countries in Eastern Europe as well. Genocide is not a light matter. War is one thing. As horrible as war is, its bad. But genocide is over the top. Genocide is over the top. And it really, erm. That upsets me, that my countrymen. First of all, did it, and it also upsets me that they just cant admit that they did it. But not just your countrymen. They should. Your grandfather, and not just your grandfather. But if i am honest with you, your story suggests that your own grandmother and your own mother knew and lied. And covered up. And you have to deal with that. I know. All i can say is theyre products of their generation. I dont think my mother knew as much as my grandmother. I think my mother got as far as hearing about it and then going into denial. And i followed her footsteps for about ten years. So i think thats as far as she got and just called it communist propaganda. My grandmother, though. Er, knew. Im convinced my grandmother knew. Thats very hard for you to accept, cos its going to fundamentally change the way you think of your own family. Yeah, i lost my lithuanian identity, i really did. I do not have a lith. Its like i dont know what my identity is any more. I grew up so proud of being lithuanian. And there are a lot of beautiful things about lithuania. But this is. This is big. This is big. Mm. And i dont know. I dont like the denial either. You know, its one thing that it happened 80 years ago, but now the denial is making it current. Thats whats making it current. Sylvia foti, it is an amazing story. Its a difficult story, but i thank you for sharing it with us. Thanks for being on hardtalk. Hello there. Under clear, starry skies, temperatures have once again been dropping. It means a cold, frosty start for most on friday morning but a mainly dry day ahead, with some spells of sunshine once any early fog has cleared. High pressure stilljust about in charge, but this frontal system will be trying to change things, with more cloud and some rain eventually into the far northwest, but most of us having a cold, frosty but bright start. Fog patches most likely across eastern and southern counties of england. They should lift and clear. Sunshine through the morning. More cloud, i think, developing for many inland areas into the afternoon, and certainly thicker cloud as this weather front approaches, western counties of Northern Ireland and northwest scotland. Some Rain Splashing in here later and a strengthening freeze. But that breeze coming up from the south, bringing some mild conditions to Northern Ireland and scotland 15 likely in northern scotland. Compare that with just eight, nine or ten for some of these north sea coasts of england, the breeze still coming in off the chilly waters of the sea. Now, as we head through friday night into saturday, england and wales will see clear skies again. That means A Touch Of Frost and the odd fog patch, but we will see more cloud into Northern Ireland and certainly western scotland, and that means a milder start to saturday. And that cloud comes courtesy of this next frontal system trying to work its way in. So Thickening Cloud for parts of Northern Ireland and northwest Scotland First thing. Clearest of the skies across england and wales. Thats where well see A Touch Of Frost. And the best of the sunshine of the day. Although, actually, after that cloudy start, Northern Ireland and a good part of scotland should brighten up a little with some Afternoon Spells of sunshine. Those temperatures, 11 to 15 degrees. It should feel a little bit less chilly at this stage for those north sea coasts of england. Now, through Saturday Night and into sunday, we see frontal systems still wriggling around to the northwest of the uk. If anything, the veil of cloud associated with those Weather Fronts will move a little further southeastwards, so sunday could be a cloudier day for some Western Parts of england and wales, certainly more cloud into Northern Ireland and scotland, with some rain into the far northwest. Best of the sunshine further south and east and temperatures between ten and 15 degrees. Now, we will see some rain at times in northwestern areas to start next week, but High Pressure will build its way back in, so that means plenty of dry weather to come with some spells of sunshine. This is bbc news very good to have your company. Im rich preston with the latest news, live from london. 0ur headines this hour. President biden calls new sanctions on russia a proportionate and measured interference in us elections and cyberattacks. The former Minneapolis Police officer Derek Chauvin invokes His Constitutional Right not to testify on the final day of evidence at his trial. You understand that you have a Fifth Amendment privilege to remain silent . Police in chicago are on high alert after the release of