Now on Bbc News, its time for hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. From John Lennon to bob marley, the Music Business has embraced songwriters who combine their beats with political activism. My guest has upheld that tradition with an energy which sets him apart. Serj tankian is best known as frontman of the heavy Metal Band System of a down. Hes also an Arch Advocate for his familys homeland, armenia. His passionate views on genocide, War And Corrupt Governance have won him millions of fans and numerous enemies too. Which matters more to him the politics or the music . Serj tankian in Los Angeles, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you, stephen. Thanks for having me on. Its a pleasure to have you on the show. I dont want to start in a downbeat way, but i Cant Help noticing that you recently described the last year as the worst of your life. I guess we can all imagine why that might be, butjust spell it out for me. Well, i mean, covid obviously is a huge part of it, but also i had other health issues. My back, i got back surgery recently, and recovering from that. And so thats been challenging. And theres also the invasion of Nagorno Karabakh by azerbaijan and turkey, with syrian mercenaries, that really, you know, created a humanitarian catastrophe within armenia. So thats been really, you know, very tough. Its been a very tough year. Right. In the course of that answer, youve taken me from your home in Los Angeles all the way out to armenia, and i suspect armenia will figure large in our conversation. Would it be fair to say that to understand you, your mind set, your world view, one has to understand that, in many ways, it wasnt forged by your upbringing as a kid in Los Angeles, where you moved as a child, but its much more forged by the collective memory your family has of armenia . I think its a fair balance. Thats a good question, stephen. I think its a fair balance because i grew up in Los Angeles, ive lived here most of my life. I live between Los Angeles and New Zealand as well. Im a resident of New Zealand. And so i think, you know, wherever you live does make a huge impact, culturally, on who you are, but i think the reverence, understanding and cultural kind of depth of my people is a huge part of who i am as well. Yes. You were born in beirut, and the reason you were born in beirut is because your family was caught up in all of the terrible Violence And Suffering wrought upon the armenian people in the years 1915 to 16 by the ottoman turkish empire, and yourfamily ended up living in lebanon. Did you, as a child, get raised on stories of what happened . Im just wondering what specific impact that had upon you. All four of my grandparents were survivors of the Armenian Genocide. Growing up in Los Angeles, i mean, they didnt share the stories when i was a child, but as i was getting into my early teens, i started asking questions about theirfamily, where they came from, what happened to them, and that obviously was a huge, you know, kind of Learning Experience for me, as to what transpired to my people during the ottoman empire. In the last days of the ottoman empire, i should say, and that became kind of like ill tell you without you asking the question that became the conduit for me to become an activist, when i learned about the. You know, when i learned that the us was trying to use the Armenian Genocide the g word, as we call it as political capital, or economic. For economic purposes in dealing with turkey, a nato ally, it made me feel like there are probably so many other truths that are being either denied or, you know, scrubbed under the carpet for geopolitical reasons or economic reasons. That made me an activist. Interesting that you define yourself as an activist. Most people watching this, tuning in around the world, will think of you first and foremost as a musician. So before we get to your commitment to activism, i just want to understand why, as the kid that you were, with the knowledge you had of your familys suffering, and everything that that did to your way of seeing the world, why did you ever feel that heavy Metal Music could be a vehicle for you expressing yourself . I always say music came to me. I was, you know. I didnt grow up as a musician, like most of my band mates, Starting Playing Music at eight years old or anything like that. I started at university, almost as a way of meditation, kind of taking me away from my other worries and Homework And Everything else that i had to do, and music became my passion. And for years, i didnt take it as my vision in life until i had a kind of epiphany. As youve seen in the Film Truth to power. And from that day forward, i knew that music was my path, but i was an activist before becoming a musician, so the two kind of naturally combined in. Yeah. Well, you talk about your Film Truth to power, and a lot of that is about your politics, but a lot of it is about the music too, and when we see the Young Serj On Stage in the mid and late � 90s and early 2000s, Withjust Thousands of adoring fans, as the popularity of your band grew and, frankly, heavy Metal Music, a genre which often, you know, can be sexist and it can indulge in occult imagery and all sorts of stuff, it is an awful long way from serj the political activist. How did you sort of square the two at the time . Well, you know, its kind of interesting you say that. The first band i played in, i played at keyboards, and it wasnt heavy metal at all, it was alternative rock, you know, and i met our guitarist daron, he was really into heavy music. Our bassist shavo, later on, was also very much into heavy music, and my Brother Kind of grew up on heavy music. So i used to listen to metal and Heavy Rock at home growing up. So it kind of crept into my life and it became the kind of language of my activism, and rock, as you well know, stephen, is the perfect language for protest, its the perfect language for rebellion. Thats why its people in their teens that usually pick it up. God wants you to go to war. Look, you know, music is an intuitive medium, and when it hits you, you feel something, irrespective of you kind of imbibing the words immediately. And i think once you feel something, you have that kind of natural, intuitive response to the music. You can later process the lyrics and have a more logical response. I always say that your first response to music is always intuitive. Its always right brain. And then once you get into the words and you process them in a left brain format, that becomes even more powerful together. Hmm. So here you are. Youre becoming a big band. I think, in 2001, which was a pretty crucial year for you, you got the Number One album in the billboard top 100, and within days of releasing that album, i think im right in saying, 9 11 happened in the united states. And you then chose, just a couple of days after that, to write a piece which you put out under the name of the band, not in your own personal name, which essentially said that what happened on 9 11 could be tied directly to us foreign policy, and that the us had to take responsibility for that. That caused a massive stir across the united states. You were banned from certain radio stations. You received death threats, as did some of your band mates. Looking back on it, do you think you got that wrong . No. If you read understanding oil, which is the essay that i wrote on September 12 or 13, that i posted to the Bands Website, its a very kind of balanced. You know, as a young person, i was trying to understand what was going on. I felt very helpless, i felt scared. As a citizen of the us, seeing those bombings, we all kind of were in trauma at the time, and i was trying to really understand how something like this could happen. And to do so, you have to look into history. You have to look into us complicity in the different dictatorships that have been running a good part of the middle east. And those people coming from those dictatorships, specifically saudi arabia, which most of the terrorists were from, and so, by doing so, you were trying to narrow down whats really happening and also calling for a multilateral approach to going after whoever� s committed these atrocities in terms ofjustice, and not the kind of George W Bush Cowboy Response that we saw, you know, as a follow up. So thats what i was trying to do. Right. But, serj, if i may say so, you werent a solo artist. You were part of a band, and bands are collectives, and, you know, the other three members of your band were also armenian americans, but were guys who did not necessarily share your politics. In a band, if you get completely political, not only does it turn off a lot of fans, which is understandable, but its also not necessarily the goal of the other guys in your team. Sure. So were you selfish rather than collectivist . Well, no. I should say that i was responsible for posting a lot of stuff for the band and for the Bands Website at the time. So you have to look at that in reference. I posted a lot of political commentary on an almost weekly if not daily basis for the Bands Website. And Thats Something Ijust did. Its not something new that ijust picked up because of the events that occurred. So, for me, it was no different than what i had already been doing, in that sense, but, yes, i mean, there was a huge response, obviously. Sony, at the time, that was our label, columbia records, they took down the writing off the website. We were about to start a tour during that time. You know, you had television Stations Kind of warning that there might be other Terrorist Attacks red, you know, orange, all these different Flash Danger signs, and were in front of 20,000 or 30,000 fans a night playing our repertoire. It was a very stressful time. And of course, the Band Sat me down and goes, what are you doing . Are you trying to get us killed . And of course, i was very apologetic. And thats, you know. Ijust wonder, serj, if you reflect now, in 2021, on everything thats happened over the last 20 years, is one of the reasons that the Band System of a down isnt really around today. I know youve done one or two one off gigs and songs, but you didnt become a kind of Rolling Stones thatjust churned out the album after album after album. You could have made a whole shedload of money. You could have prolonged your band career. But is one reason you didnt that you and the other guys were just not on the same page politically, and still are not today . Cos i know one Band Member voted for donald trump, you voted for bernie sanders. Was that a problem in the band . You know, a band is an interesting dynamic, and i always say good bands have very varied dynamics, you know, so that is definitely. It could be a part of it. There are many reasons, more artistic reasons than political, that the band has not become the Rolling Stones. But i should also say not every band wants to be the Rolling Stones, touring in their 70s and become a mega mega whatever that is. Our success. Weve had an incredible amount of success, and the income that comes from it, and i think were all very grateful and thankful for where we are. Lets then get back to the specifics of your activism and to armenia, because in yourfight, as you put it, forjustice around the world, you became increasingly committed to the fight to see, you know, better governance in armenia, and you were very keen to join the street protests and the People Power revolutionaries who were determined to bring down the long Serving President Prime Minister of armenia, who served for many years, mr sargsyan. Now, you, in 2015, played a gig in yerevan, which was wrapped up with the whole sort of concept of protest. Were you then determined to play a political role at that point . No, i mean, ive always. Look, stephen, i haventjust criticised us foreign policy, nor israeli occupation of palestine, norjust certain, you know, dictatorships around the world. Ive always criticised everything as an activist, and so armenia was not included, you know . So, in 2013, i had criticised serzh sargsyan, the president at the time, for his Re Election campaign, because it was rigged with flaws, and so i think i was already part of that process. And in 2015, when we played a show in armenia, it was the first time System Of A Down played a show in armenia, at the centennial of the Armenian Genocide. It was a very special moment for all of us. It felt like we were designed as a band to be there, you know, to speak truth to power, if i will, to, you know. To the government at the time in armenia, to talk about the kind of hypocrisy of the Obama Administration not using the Word Genocide, even though obama, as a candidate, used the Word Genocide many times and blamed George W Bush for not using it, you know, and such things, and so i was automatically part of the process, in a way. Electric electric yerevan we say no to corruption and no to plunder. Billionaire playgrounds are going under electric electric yerevan seems like the brutal police. Crackdown with Water Cannons and beating people up, including journalists,. Has predictably brought morei people out onto the streets. So when the Peaceful Revolution in 2018, the velvet revolution, happened, and they were asking me to go and be part of the protest, i wanted to go. I was actually really sick. I had a Flu And Fever and whatnot. And as soon as i got over it, i got on a plane and went there. And i was really, reallyjust overjoyed with the elation in peoples faces at this kind of turnaround that they had done, this kind of incredible change in leadership that they had started, and i had so much hope for the country. Well, let me stop you there, because what intrigues me is that, of course, in 2018, this revolutionary moment happened in armenia, and the guy who became your friend, Nikol Pashinyan, who was a journalist and who became leader of the country, he then led the country into what weve seen in the last few months as a pretty disastrous war. But youre, interestingly, no longer an outsider. Youre an insider, because youre a very good friend of his. Ijust wonder if its become more difficult for you to criticise, because youve become a close ally of the Prime Minister. So, i met Nikol Pashinyan when i actually flew into armenia for the revolution. I had not met him before and, you know, i saw him become Prime Minister after the revolution. By the way, the revolution was an incredible event for the first time in history, Decentralised Civil Disobedience was used as a tool for civil. For change. And weve made a film called i am not alone, an award winning film, documentary film, thats coming out this year about that event. But ill get back to your question. So i went to armenia for the revolution. I watched Nikol Pashinyan become Prime Minister, and forged a relationship with him, obviously, and over the years, like, you know, the revolution was a High Point in armenian history. It was a unique moment where the full nation was basically, you know. The whole armenian nation was into this incredible change positive, Peaceful Change that occurred, because for years, for 20 something, almost 30 years, armenia was under a post soviet, oligarchic kind of corrupt regime, and people were voting with their feet, as they say. They were leaving the country. There were no economic opportunities for people. You couldnt getjustice in the courts, etc. And so this change and this fight against corruption was really monumental in armenia, based on what was going on there. I understand that, but i also see today that there are many thousands of armenians taking to the streets demanding the departure of mr pashinyan, and the reason is because they think they completely mishandled the war with azerbaijan. He used plenty of bellicose language in the years running up to the war, but when it came to the war itself, armenia seemed drastically underprepared and, in essence, lost that war and has indeed lost territory in Nagorno Karabakh and around Nagorno Karabakh as a result. Thats correct. What do you think should happen now . Well, there are new snap parliamentary elections happening injune 20, and the government agreed to do that before their time was up, obviously, as youre well aware, and so i think thats a very positive thing because it continues the democratic and constitutional process, rather than give way to other processes, right . You know, what happened here was that azerbaijan and turkey, along with syrian mercenaries, attacked the peaceful country of Nagorno Karabakh artsakh, we call in armenian. Well, thats obviously in dispute. And i dont want to get stuck on who started what. Thats not in dispute at all. Well, its certainly in dispute. If you talk to azeris or to. As youve just accused the turks, they would deny what you just said. Im sorry. I dont accept their truth, if theyre Genocide Deniers or dictators, and thats what both turkey and Azerbaijans Leadership are. Well, thats what youve called the turks for a long time, and they and i should point this out turkey always refuses to accept the Word Genocide when it comes to a description of what happened in 1915 to � 16 to the armenian people. But what im interested in, serj, is whether your experience tells you that creatives such as yourself, artists such as yourself, can make a difference in the political debate, because certainly, in the united states, it seems the dial has moved, and back in 2019 the us congress finally formally voted to acknowledge what happened in 1915 to � 16 as a genocide. Do you believe you made a difference . You know, id like to believe that the Bands Activism was part of the general armenian diasporas efforts to get the genocide recognised. Even though we played a small part of it, im very proud of that. And i think were fairly confident that President Biden is going to formally recognise the genocide this april as well. And i think its time the Uk Parliament does it as well and stops being one of the few western nations that hasnt properly recognised the genocide. Im mindful that you tell a story how you made a pledge to your grandfather, who did escape the suffering of 1915 to � 16, he ended up being a refugee, he fled to syria and then lebanon, and he was so malnourished during the suffering that he became blind, and you promised that you would always fight to have what happened to him acknowledged, the truth told, and you would struggle forjustice. Do you believe that you fulfilled your promise to your grandfather . I believe so. I believe that im still fulfilling it, even doing this interview and talking about the need for the uk to recognise the genocide. Its part of the process. I think that fight is not over. I think theres still a lot of misinformation out there, theres a lot of denialism out there, mostly by Turkey And Azerbaijan at this point, and thats got to be reversed. Serj, weve talked a lot in this interview about music and about politics and activism. The balance seems to have changed for you. Now you seem primarily focused on the politics and the activism. Could it change yet again, or is your creative impulse now taking second place . Im currently scoring a series. Im always working on music. At the same time, music is both my form of expression and my escape at the same time, and when i do too much politics, its nice to pick up a guitar or piano, and dive into that beautiful, meditative world and create something that hasnt existed before. And so, to me, they coexist in a perfect balance. Serj tankian, its been a pleasure having you on hardtalk. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you, stephen. Hello there. Most of us had a fine and dry Day Yesterday with some welcome sunshine. Now, across quite widely the North And West of the country, temperatures are actually a little bit above average for the time of year. About 3 degrees above around the glasgow area. Across eastern england, there were some areas a little bit on the cool side, for example, london. Mainly because we had the wins come again from the relatively cool North Sea around this area of High Pressure. Similar Wind Pattern on thursday, similar distribution of temperatures again across these North Western areas we will see some of the warmest weather. Its not particularly warm at the moment. Indeed temperatures are dropping very quickly underneath these clear and starry skies. The wind is light, could bejust a few Mist And Fog patches, although probably not quite as many as we had this time yesterday. Temperatures at the lowest, 3, i celsius or so across parts of north east england. There will be quite a widespread frost first thing. So a frosty start to the day but a beautiful start as well with clear Blue Skies in many places. Lots of sunshine on the cards. But as we head through the day, we are going to see some Cloud Build in, particularly across central and eastern england, and indeed a line of showers will develop across East Anglia and south east england, with some of Them Heavyish but i dont think there will be any thunderstorms around. The further North West you are the clearest the skies will be. Plenty of sunshine even into the afternoon, even for these areas. And its here where we will see some of the highest temperatures again probably reaching around 15 degrees celsius. A little cooler than that across central and eastern areas of england. If anything, those temperatures down a little bit compared with wednesdays. For the end of the week, High Pressure is still with us and that means another fine, frosty start to the day. Plenty of sunshine, a little bit of cloud bubbling up as we head into the afternoon. Towards the North West, you might find a little bit of slightly thicker cloud beginning to make inroads, but most of thats going to be quite high. Just making the sunshine a little on the hazy side. So for many of us, after a cold start to the day, a bit of cloud bubbles up but essentially a fine day. For the weekend prospects, Weather Fronts are going to get pretty close to the northwest of the country. Across most of england and wales were looking at this fine spell of weather to continue. Probably of the two days, saturday looks like being the sunniest, but sunday is still not bad. Further North West, a bit more cloud around and across the far North West of the uk through sunday, there is the threat of seeing a little bit of rain. Thats your weather. This is Bbc News im sally bundock. 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