Its time for hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi. My guest is the writer, Film Maker and activist, tsitsi dangarembga. She is one of zimbabwes most influential and acclaimed culturalfigures. Arrested for her political activism, she says her art gives her a platform to call for change. What are the prospects for better days in zimbabwe when Everyday Life is a struggle . Tsitsi dangarembga, in harare, welcome to hardtalk. Your latest book, this mournable body, centres on a female character, tambu. Is it a personal story, or is it a history of modern zimbabwe . Zeinab, i find that my work generally intersects between the personal and the national and the historical, because the national and the historical have a lot to do in determining what the person can do, what a character can do, whether this is in real life or in a novel. I do want my work to be realistic, or at least i have done up until now, because i have wanted people in zimbabwe and on the continent to engage from a perspective of recognition, to be able to say, yes, this is us. And i also wanted to present characters like the people i meet in Everyday Life to the rest of the world. So, tHere You Have tambu, your main character. Its actually a trilogy of books which youve written over 30 years, this is the third one. And she fights prejudice in all sorts of ways against race, you know, gender discrimination, all the rest of it. But in this book, youve brought Tambus Story up to zimbabwe in the 1990s, when Robert Mugabe, of course, was in power. How do you see that period in zimbabwean history . That period in zimbabwes history, when Robert Mugabe was in power, was a history of increasing disillusionment, increasing Lack And Loss of hope, increasing distress. We began very well, we thought, in 1980, and for the first decade or so up until 1990 but then, things began to disintegrate. Up until now, when we have a situation where daily life is almost impossible for most of the citizens in the country. Just getting enough food to eat, being able to afford to buy food, having power in your home, clean water all of these things are not anything that we can take for granted any more. So, its really been a great decline since the days of Robert Mugabe, and going forward from the time of Robert Mugabe, we do not see that there has been any improvement. Just take us on that journey, because you talk about the disillusionment and the reality of zimbabwe today but it didnt start like that, did it . I mean, there was a great deal of hope, optimism, even euphoria, after colonialism, the war of independence, independence, and then you got mugabe. I mean, surely there were great moments . Yes, zeinab. I remember being in harare in 1980, when Zanu Pf won the elections, and just seeing people streaming through the streets celebrating. This came at The End of a war that had lasted for one and a half decades, and in which just about the whole population had participated in one way or another. Rural people engaged with the guerrillas they fed them, they hid them. They took the brunt of rhodesian security forces� onslaught in the security forces� attempt to apprehend the guerrillas. And people had contributed money and other resources to the war effort. So, it felt like we had managed to do something good for ourselves, for once, all together as a nation, and we were going to go forward in the same way. It seemed like we had made our own history for the first time, because during the colonial era, history was said to be made for us by other people. The euphoria did not last long. We began to realise that the culture of war was still a culture that was very much with us. Zanu pf began to act like a government that had been in exile, and that had constituted itself into a state in exile, that had now come into the country and taken over all the structures that were there. So, it seemed very much that, at one point, we had the british settlers, who became the rhodesians, coming in and taking over everything and we relived that with Zanu Pf, which came in to take over land, all kinds of economic activity. In the beginning, this was said to be done In The Name Of the nation, but as time went on, we saw more and more, and it was actually said very clearly that things were not done In The Name Of the nation. Things were done In The Name Of the party. This became very clear in 2017 when we had a coup. Again, the reason for the coup was to safeguard the party and the War Of Liberation because in Zanu Pf rhetoric, the War Of Liberation belongs to them and does not belong to the whole nation that participated in it. You have said, everything in zimbabwe is transactional. We do not have a values based society now. Just elaborate on that. What do you mean . I mean we are living at the very edge of survival. It is like the proverbial Drowning Person clutching at a straw, anything that is available to us. To improve the quality of our lives is something we are willing to give something for. To give you an example of what i mean weve been through lockdown, which means that young people have not been at school, which means there have been young girls on the streets, just trying to help their families to survive, and engaging in transactional sex maybe as early as 12 13. What kind of money are these girls receiving for that transaction of their bodies . Theyre sometimes receiving a bunch of vegetables to go and eat that evening with their families. So, this is the nature of the transactional life that we have led. Everybody looks at the other person as a person from whom something can be gained, something that is necessary forjust continuing and getting through the day. We no longer look at Each Other as co nationals, as people who have a common history and should be constructing a common fate. Its about what can i get out of this situation and this person in this situation at this moment in time . So, very distressing stories, of course, of that kind of exploitation of young girls that you used to illustrate what you mean. So, look, you are part of the opposition to the ruling party, Zanu Pf. I mean, you were actually part of the Movement For Democratic Change the main opposition grouping, in 2010, the Faction Led by Arthur Mutambara and you were actually nominated education secretary. You were very hopeful for change. Youre still an activist. You were arrested injuly last yearfor protesting, demanding reforms and change in zimbabwe. Youve been released on bail, and you were charged with incitement to public violence, and so on. So, what is your status now . I mean, how free do you feel . I mean, youre talking to me very freely now but, you know, whats the situation for you . Zeinab, you do call me somebody who is part of the opposition, and, indeed, i was a member of Mutambaras Movement for democratic change. However, i did leave the movement, and that was because of my disillusionment with the opposition, with the government, the ruling party, and with politics as an avenue for change. I felt that the political arena was not the arena in which i could usefully contribute to change. So, i wanted to get back to what i really love to do, which is my passion, and that is engage with how people think, how they imagine themselves, how they imagine their lives and see what change can be brought about through transforming the way that people think and imagine themselves and their lives. So, ijust went back to concentrate on my creative work again. Yes, that creative work does bring me into places where i have to engage with the government and speak out about things that are not working for the citizens of zimbabwe. The situation in zimbabwe, as i see it, is that the ruling party, Zanu Pf, has forgotten that it is actually contracted into power by the people, who put them there so that the government can work to create an enabling environment for all the people to prosper. Zanu pf has forgotten that, and think that authority belongs to them by some kind of divine right, as a result of winning the Liberation Struggle all on their own, as they seem to think. So, they have established a hegemony over the people. Can i ask you this, though . Because you paint this picture of Zanu Pf, and yet theres some puzzlement, because, you see, a senior Zanu Pf official, patrick chinamasa, says, im overwhelmed with defections from the opposition, mdc. I appreciate youre no longer part of the Movement For Democratic Change, butjust making this general point. I mean, he says lots of applications, they want to join Zanu Pf. Some of those members, he says, are doing it for the first time, while some others are rejoining, because they were previously Zanu Pf members. So, is the ruling party, the Zanu Pf, gaining the upper hand over the formal opposition . I do think there are a lot of defections from various Opposition Parties including the Movement For Democratic Change simply because those Opposition Parties have very little Wiggle Room to operate in. The repression has been so great that it is very difficult for people to exert any political opposition that is effective. The other side of it is that people have to earn a living. Generally, often, politicians in zimbabwe are not people with qualifications to do anything but politics. They tend, also, to be businesspeople. So, in order to be able to flourish in the arena of politics, they have to have a source of income. Now, if Zanu Pf is in this hegemonical position where they control everything including the Economy And Business it means that if you are in the opposition, you have no chance of survival. We saw last year that they actually stopped the money that parliament should vote into the account of the opposition until they could do some restructuring of the opposition themselves. And they quote Marxist Philosophy that says the best opposition is an opposition that you create yourself. So, they have been doing that diligently. So, they make sure that resources cannot flow to oppositional voices and i think this is one reason that creates the pressure for people to join Zanu Pf. Have you given up on any prospects for change in the near future . Because you have been very accomplished in so many cultural spheres as a Film Maker, youre one of africas leading artistic figures. I mean, your activism, as we see, is obviously very important to you. Butjust thinking as an african Here You Have said, there is a global systemic issue to do with how the world has situated both zimbabwe and africa as a whole, and we are not able to break out of that mould. What do you mean by that . When i talk about the World Situating Africa and zimbabwe in a certain position, im talking about the history of European Colonisation of africa, which goes back at least half a millennium. Through this European Colonisation of africa, structures have been developed, which even though the political colonisation has dismantled remain in the form of economic structures and the social construction of the nation, the Way Education is framed, that keep us all within a certain framework of looking to europe as the emergent, powerful source of everything, and africa as the incompetent place, where we have to receive everything that europe has to give. So, it is this kind of thinking that needs to be disrupted. It needs to be disrupted on the continent because we africans, also, have internalised that position, and it needs to be disrupted elsewhere off the continent also. And is that the Role Of the artist . Because youve talked about wanting to create a culture of blackness, a positive culture of blackness. I think the artist has a big role to play in changing the way we look at the world and different parts of the world. In my case, the way i like to do this is to bring to light people who are walking through those worlds, so that we can see the very negative way in which the structures we have created impact on these people. And i hope that by seeing this, we can be energised and motivated to work to change those structures. But isnt the world changing now . Theres a lot of debate now, not only in the united kingdom, but in germany which you know well in france, about the restitution of objects that were obtained, or looted, during the colonial era. Things like the Benin Bronzes you know, germany says its going to return a whole load of them. Weve got conversations about the decolonization of education curriculums, you know, started in South Africa in 2015 and resonates here at cambridge university, where you were also briefly a student. I mean, the world has moved on, dont you think . Zeinab, i think that change is in process in the world, and i think that people are looking to change many of these structures that were set up over half a millennium. I dont think that the structures that were created over half a millennium can be changed within the span of, lets say, a decade, so its an ongoing process. Its something we have to be invested in for the long term. Then the other side of it is that the structures that were created in that time, over half a millennium, have thrown up entities like the african governments that we see that are still very much embedded within the global economic system. So, all of those things have to be dismantled, too. The very fabric of society in africa has to be changed so that we throw up different kinds of africans who are not going to take on the Role Of, really, destroying africa again the way these post colonial governments have done. Right. Illjust give you the quote from the late, great nigerian novelist, Chinua Achebe, who suggests that the west could, derive some advantages from africa once it rids its mind of old prejudices and begins to look at africa not through a haze of distortions and cheap mystification, but quite simply as a continent of people, not angels, but not rudimentary souls either. I mean, you were a student at cambridge, you won a place in 1977. You left after 2 3 years because, you said, you just didnt fit in and felt that youd experienced racism, and so on. I mean, how much progress do you think there has been from the time when you were at cambridge to getting to this point that Chinua Achebe now describes . I think there has been a lot of progress, zeinab. Youre talking about nearly half a century from the late � 70s until where we are now and thats quite a chunk of time. So, when i look back, i think if i were 20 years old today, i would have a very different Life Trajectory to the one i had, so i think thats fabulous. But how many of us end up in cambridge . How many of us african people end up at university, even . Its a tiny percentage. So, when i look back at the other people, i see that there has not been so much change and so much progress for them. Zimbabwe is still around 70 rural, and definitely there has not been commensurate progress for that 70 of the rural population. I want to talk about womens rights, because thats important in yourart and activism, in your films and your writing, and so on. 0bviously, talked about your book, you know, this mournable body, the latest in the trilogy, where youve got key characters like tambu. You teach a little at a girls� school, and as you yourself said about how male predators prey on school girls. In fact, a survey by Transparency International says 57 of women in zimbabwe say they� ve been forced to offer sexualfavours forjobs, medical care, and all the rest of it. Why does this kind of abuse persist . Why do the authorities turn a blind eye to it . Well, quite simply, zeinab, Sexual Abuse persists because of patriarchy. The authorities are patriarchal. They are the old men who went out nearly half a century ago to fight the war and came back triumphant, and they feel that they have the right to all the joys and benefits of being triumphant men and that always includes the right to women� s bodies. So, we cannot look to those kinds of leaders to change the society. We have to look to the women themselves. One of the problems is that because traditional society had also become very conservative and very patriarchal, we have two sources of patriarchy reinforcing Each Other, and so many women in positions of influence are also patriarchal women, and so it becomes very difficult. Women who fight against patriarchy in zimbabwe have very little room to manoeuvre because the society is controlled by patriarchal men and women. Gosh, you paint a very bleak picture. But, look, we� re seeing women marching in their droves all over the world, from australia to turkey, demanding greater rights and an end to the patriarchy. Here in the united kingdom, there are moves to make misogyny a hate crime. How far do you think the plight of women in zimbabwe which you have described can be helped by a kind of global women� s movement . I think that women in zimbabwe can tap into a global women� s movement, and i have done so myself. I think, at The End of the day, the change will come from the women themselves. We have to remember that, in zimbabwe, we are living in a country where people in their 50s and 60s Today lived through the Liberation Struggle. During the Liberation Struggle, guerrillas would come with triumphant messages of freedom and how we were all to be liberated but they also came with very grim and fearful messages of what would happen to anybody who was against them. Often, these pungwes would happen during the Liberation Struggle. These were times when guerrillas would come into communities at night and bring people together. These pungwes would happen while somebody who was said to be a Sell Out was being tortured or murdered somewhere within earshot, and people were told with absolutely no doubt that they would be treated in the same way if they went against this incoming power. So, we have people who are in the grip of fear, so we are not going to rise up very easily. And women are in even more fear because they fear the men and they fear the state, and so women are also not going to rise up very easily. Finally and briefly, you say that artistic production is your core activity, and yet you feel compelled to engage in what you call your on the ground activism. There could be a tension between the two, maybe not. I mean, how do you see yourself striking the balance . Zeinab, the balance between my artistic Production And Activism is difficult. But if i do not engage in calling the government out when i feel they need to be called out, i would really have increasingly less room to manoeuvre and to work in as a citizen of zimbabwe, as an artist. So, it is a balance i have to strike. At one point, i will have to do more activism. At another point, i will have more time and space to do my artistic production and i really hope that the space to do my artistic production increases in the coming days. Tsitsi dangarembga, in harare, zimbabwe, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. Hello there. Generally speaking, it looks like monday should be a dryer day, and temperatures may be a little higher than they were over the weekend. It certainly was a cold weekend, and we had widespread wintry showers developing, even had some snow here for a while in greater london. A lot of those wintry showers are fading away, but we still have cold air across the uk. High pressure towards the southwest and running around the top of it, this weak Weather Front has been bringing some damp weather into northern ireland, that� s pushing into parts of wales and southern england. There could briefly be a little bit of Sleet And Snow as we run into the colder air. And we start monday with a widespread frost, perhaps some icy patches. Lowest temperatures in scotland and northern england, where we have the clearer skies. Maybe still some damp weather, a bit of rain or wintering us across parts of wales will soon move into southern england. That doesn� t last long, cloud breaks, sunshine comes through, we� re left with the odd shower. Most of the showers will filter into Western Parts of northern ireland, much of scotland, northern, eastern england, and the midlands having a dry day, much better day than it was on sunday with some sunshine and as a result, temperatures will be a couple degrees higher, as well. Still cold and those temperatures will fall away quickly into the evening with those clearer skies, most places ending the day fine and dry. High pressure is building in across the uk for tuesday. You think of High Pressure, you think dry weather and for most places, it will be, but not quite everywhere. Starts cold and there� ll be a frost around. The sunshine coming through, some cloud developing especially in the west, maybe bringing a few showers into northern ireland, southWestern Parts of scotland, wales, and western areas of england. The distribution of showers does keep changing a bit, but it does look drier towards eastern areas, and more parts of the country will see temperatures in double figures. Now we still have High Pressure in charge as we move into wednesday. Things look a little different yes, it� ll start cold, there may well be a frost around, as well, and after a sunny start, cloud will tend to build up. But this time, it� ll probably spread out a bit more, there won� t be the depth of cloud, so we� re unlikely to see many, if any showers around, and those temperatures in western areas could hit 13 14 celsius. It� s fairly quiet weather over the weekend, there won� t be much rain around, many places will be dry. But it� ll still be cold not quite as cold as it was over the weekend, mind you, but there� s still a risk of frost overnight. Goodbye. This is bbc news. I� m lewis vaughanjones, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. Senior and around the world. Royals attend the Church Service senior royals attend the Church Service after the death of the duke of edinburgh and talk about the loss for the queen and the family. She described it as this having and the family. She described it as this having left and the family. She described it as this having left a and the family. She described it as this having left a huge i it as this having left a huge void it as this having left a huge void in it as this having left a huge void in her life. It has been a bit Of Void in her life. It has been a bit of A Void in her life. It has been a bit of a shock, however one might bit of a shock, however one might strays to prepare themselves, it is still a dreadful shock. 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