at ten o'clock, we'll have a full round—up of the day's news. first, social media, anti—social media, breaking news, fake news — this is the programme about a revolution in media with amol rajan, the bbc�*s media editor. hello. what kind of health is british investigative journalism actually in? better than you might think, perhaps because a lot of it is happening away from the national titles and being conducted by localjournalists, for instance, in manchester. or perhaps it's because a lot of it's being done by specialists who are willing to work for a variety of titles. or maybe because a pandemic being a complex and hopefully once—in—a—century event lends itself to scandal, lea ks and whistle—blows. today, we're going to go inside the mechanics of investigative reporting to give you the nuts, the bolts, the fear, the loathing and the legal letters of being a proper investigative hack. let me introduce you to our guests. george arbuthnott is a deputy editor of the sunday times�*s insight team, jennifer williams is politics and investigations editor for the manchester evening news and rachel oldroyd is managing editor and ceo of the bureau of investigationjournalism. it's actually the bureau of investigativejournalism, isn't it, rachel? it is. george, we're going to start with you. over the past year, you've been writing pieces on the sunday times over britain's handling of the pandemic, and your book on this is called failures of state. it's out this week. it features whistle—blowers from within the government and the nhs. how have you gone about cultivating sources during a pandemic? cos presumably, you can't sneak off for a quiet coffee when we're all on zoom, as we are right now. that's right, but in some ways, it's actually been easier because the key is to build up sources within the government and the nhs, and normally, i'm thinking within the government, that if they've got their bosses overseeing them in the office, it's very hard to get a call in to them and have an open conversation cos everyone�*s been at home. it's actually been easier for them to speak freely. what about the pub? i thought sunday times hacks back in the day used to cultivate them in the pub, usually the red line in westminster, wasn't it? you're right, it does often help to meet people in person to build up trust. but actually, just the ability to ring someone up and have a frank conversation with them without them being supervised, it has certainly made a big difference in that respect. jennifer williams from the manchester evening news, i see you're nodding through what george says. yeah, iwas, while yeah, i was, while george was building — yeah, i was, while george was building those contacts, i suppose i was in _ building those contacts, i suppose i was in greater manchester. i was a health_ was in greater manchester. i was a health journalist before this, was in greater manchester. i was a healthjournalist before this, but my contact was in the public health system, _ my contact was in the public health system, so — my contact was in the public health system, so i went through a similar process _ system, so i went through a similar process i_ system, so i went through a similar process. i actually found twitter to be very— process. i actually found twitter to be very useful in that respect in terms _ be very useful in that respect in terms of— be very useful in that respect in terms ofjust having chats with people — terms ofjust having chats with people over direct messages. i think sometimes — people over direct messages. i think sometimes people get worried about whether— sometimes people get worried about whether their messages... and they find social— whether their messages... and they find social media direct messaging feels more comfortable, and i've noticed _ feels more comfortable, and i've noticed that with quite a few people over the _ noticed that with quite a few people over the past year. isn�*t noticed that with quite a few people over the past year.— over the past year. isn't that true for sources? _ over the past year. isn't that true for sources? if _ over the past year. isn't that true for sources? if you _ over the past year. isn't that true for sources? if you are _ over the past year. isn't that true for sources? if you are in - over the past year. isn't that true for sources? if you are in touch . for sources? if you are in touch with people through the direct message on twitter, it's a safer form of communication? i message on twitter, it's a safer form of communication?- form of communication? i don't think... form of communication? i don't think- -- i _ form of communication? i don't think... ithink— form of communication? i don't think... | think it's _ form of communication? i don't think... i think it's more - form of communication? i don't think... i think it's more of - form of communication? i don't think... i think it's more of a i think... i think it's more of a psychological thing. people sometimes feel more comfortable having _ sometimes feel more comfortable having this conversation that way than doing it over text or doing it in another— than doing it over text or doing it in another way, and than doing it over text or doing it in anotherway, and i've than doing it over text or doing it in another way, and i've noticed it a tot— in another way, and i've noticed it a lot during — in another way, and i've noticed it a lot during the pandemic. the other thing _ a lot during the pandemic. the other thing is _ a lot during the pandemic. the other thing is income and what george was saying _ thing is income and what george was saying. people are sat in front of their— saying. people are sat in front of their laptops and if you just drop them _ their laptops and if you just drop them a _ their laptops and if you just drop them a message and say, what do you reckoh_ them a message and say, what do you reckon about _ them a message and say, what do you reckon about this? they say... no offence _ reckon about this? they say... no offence to— reckon about this? they say... no offence to my contacts. may reckon about this? they say. .. no offence to my contacts.— reckon about this? they say... no offence to my contacts. may be bored --eole are offence to my contacts. may be bored peeple are better— offence to my contacts. may be bored people are better sources _ offence to my contacts. may be bored people are better sources because - people are better sources because theyjust really people are better sources because they just really want to tell people things. you're all nodding! rachel from the bureau, you've had your own stories, but we're also looking at amazon, walmart, facebook and more. how easy has been to interest readers be beyond the pandemic? the news over the last 18 months has been all virus. ah, news over the last 18 months has been all virus.— been all virus. a lot of trumpet too. been all virus. a lot of trumpet tom we've _ been all virus. a lot of trumpet too. we've had _ been all virus. a lot of trumpet too. we've had a _ been all virus. a lot of trumpet too. we've had a year - been all virus. a lot of trumpet too. we've had a year of - been all virus. a lot of trumpet too. we've had a year ofjust i too. we've had a year ofjust intentional— too. we've had a year ofjust intentional use _ too. we've had a year ofjust intentional use of— too. we've had a year ofjust intentional use of stories - too. we've had a year ofjust intentional use of stories ——| too. we've had a year ofjustl intentional use of stories —— a too. we've had a year ofjust- intentional use of stories —— a lot of trumpet — intentional use of stories —— a lot oftrumpet~ it— intentional use of stories —— a lot of trumpet. it has _ intentional use of stories —— a lot of trumpet. it has been - intentional use of stories —— a lot of trumpet. it has been difficult i intentional use of stories —— a lotl of trumpet. it has been difficult to think— of trumpet. it has been difficult to think outside _ of trumpet. it has been difficult to think outside of— of trumpet. it has been difficult to think outside of the _ of trumpet. it has been difficult to think outside of the virus - of trumpet. it has been difficult to think outside of the virus and - of trumpet. it has been difficult to| think outside of the virus and what else is— think outside of the virus and what else is important. _ think outside of the virus and what else is important. there _ think outside of the virus and what else is important. there are - think outside of the virus and what else is important. there are so - think outside of the virus and what . else is important. there are so many other— else is important. there are so many other important _ else is important. there are so many other important issues _ else is important. there are so many other important issues and _ else is important. there are so many other important issues and i- else is important. there are so many other important issues and i think. other important issues and i think going _ other important issues and i think going back— other important issues and i think going back to— other important issues and i think going back to sources, _ other important issues and i think going back to sources, one - other important issues and i think going back to sources, one of- other important issues and i think going back to sources, one of the| going back to sources, one of the key things— going back to sources, one of the key things that _ going back to sources, one of the key things that gets _ going back to sources, one of the key things that gets people - going back to sources, one of the. key things that gets people talking is a iot— key things that gets people talking is a lot of— key things that gets people talking is a lot of anger— key things that gets people talking is a lot of anger at _ key things that gets people talking is a lot of anger at the _ key things that gets people talking is a lot of anger at the moment, i key things that gets people talking| is a lot of anger at the moment, so people _ is a lot of anger at the moment, so people are — is a lot of anger at the moment, so people are really _ is a lot of anger at the moment, so people are really prepared - is a lot of anger at the moment, so people are really prepared to - is a lot of anger at the moment, so people are really prepared to talk i people are really prepared to talk about _ people are really prepared to talk about things _ people are really prepared to talk about things. one _ people are really prepared to talk about things. one of _ people are really prepared to talk about things. one of the - people are really prepared to talk about things. one of the key - people are really prepared to talk i about things. one of the key things that we've — about things. one of the key things that we've found _ about things. one of the key things that we've found is _ about things. one of the key things that we've found is that _ about things. one of the key things that we've found is that it - about things. one of the key things that we've found is that it is - about things. one of the key things that we've found is that it is very i that we've found is that it is very difficult — that we've found is that it is very difficult in — that we've found is that it is very difficult in the — that we've found is that it is very difficult in the space _ that we've found is that it is very difficult in the space to - that we've found is that it is very difficult in the space to build - that we've found is that it is very difficult in the space to build upl difficult in the space to build up trust. _ difficult in the space to build up trust. so — difficult in the space to build up trust. so to— difficult in the space to build up trust, so to find _ difficult in the space to build up trust, so to find these - difficult in the space to build up trust, so to find these stories . difficult in the space to build up l trust, so to find these stories you don't _ trust, so to find these stories you don't know— trust, so to find these stories you don't know are _ trust, so to find these stories you don't know are out _ trust, so to find these stories you don't know are out there. - trust, so to find these stories you don't know are out there. stories| don't know are out there. stories about— don't know are out there. stories about the — don't know are out there. stories about the pandemic, _ don't know are out there. stories about the pandemic, stories - don't know are out there. stories. about the pandemic, stories about trump's _ about the pandemic, stories about trump's leadership. _ about the pandemic, stories about trump's leadership. they've - about the pandemic, stories about trump's leadership. they've beenl trump's leadership. they've been easy but— trump's leadership. they've been easy but the — trump's leadership. they've been easy but the stories _ trump's leadership. they've been easy but the stories you - trump's leadership. they've been easy but the stories you just - trump's leadership. they've been| easy but the stories you just don't know— easy but the stories you just don't know exist. — easy but the stories you just don't know exist, those _ easy but the stories you just don't know exist, those are _ easy but the stories you just don't know exist, those are the - easy but the stories you just don't know exist, those are the tricky. know exist, those are the tricky ones _ know exist, those are the tricky ones in — know exist, those are the tricky ones in a — know exist, those are the tricky ones in a world _ know exist, those are the tricky ones in a world where - know exist, those are the tricky ones in a world where we're - know exist, those are the tricky ones in a world where we're all| know exist, those are the tricky. ones in a world where we're all in remote _ ones in a world where we're all in remote zoom _ ones in a world where we're all in remote zoom land _ ones in a world where we're all in remote zoom land a. _ ones in a world where we're all in remote zoom land a. [f— ones in a world where we're all in remote zoom land a.— remote zoom land a. if you don't know, remote zoom land a. if you don't know. you _ remote zoom land a. if you don't know. you don't _ remote zoom land a. if you don't know, you don't know. _ remote zoom land a. if you don't know, you don't know. if- remote zoom land a. if you don't know, you don't know. if we're . know, you don't know. if we're talking about investigative journalism, one of the most impressive still not respected artist is the washington post. the last nine years, is editorjust retired. i sat down with them. it's another bonus interview for the mucous show —— at the media show. it talks about the surprises that the washington post and he looks at his time at the boston globe. i'm going to play you a little bit of the interview now because i also asked him about how the washington post funds their failures, their world fan and this investigation. —— world famous. investigativejournalism is famous. investigative journalism is expensive. famous. investigativejournalism is expensive. the post is now an unfortunate position of having a rich owner name tojeff bezos. if rich owner name to jeff bezos. if jeff pazo stuff i thought we would have been on the same deadline as previously. we would have had fewer resources, staff all of that. i don't think we would have been as powerful as we became because we achieved commercial status, we were able to achieve stability, reinvest our earnings because of... so i think it's made a tremendous difference. think it's made a tremendous difference-— think it's made a tremendous difference. ~ . , ' difference. where did you and jeff bezos first sit _ difference. where did you and jeff bezos first sit down _ difference. where did you and jeff bezos first sit down and _ difference. where did you and jeff bezos first sit down and discuss i bezos first sit down and discuss this? ~ bezos first sit down and discuss this? . ., bezos first sit down and discuss this? ~ ., ., . this? we sat down of the executive team of the — this? we sat down of the executive team of the post. _ this? we sat down of the executive team of the post. he _ this? we sat down of the executive team of the post. he made - this? we sat down of the executive team of the post. he made clear i this? we sat down of the executive i team of the post. he made clear from team of the post. he made clearfrom the beginning he thought that strategy of being regional may have been the right strategy. it made a lot of money over the years, but it wasn't the right strategy. because we were taking everything the internet had to offer, and... but we weren't taking what he called the gift of the internet. he explained quite clearly that the gift was worldwide distribution at no additional cost because of the internet. we don't have to deliver papers everywhere, and he said we have the opportunity to be national and international. because you don't incur additional cost. you're in an ideal position because you're based in the nation's capital, because we have the name the washington post, which is a good name for going national international, and we had a heritage that was well defined in the public�*s mind. shining a light and dark corners and holding up and the accountability. i and dark corners and holding up and the accountability.— the accountability. i should say you have won plaudits _ the accountability. i should say you have won plaudits with _ the accountability. i should say you have won plaudits with the - the accountability. i should say you have won plaudits with the way i the accountability. i should say you have won plaudits with the way you handled the relationship, but i wonder if you can reflect on whether it's sometimes an uncontrolled place forjournalists it's sometimes an uncontrolled place for journalists to it's sometimes an uncontrolled place forjournalists to be, being ultimately owned by somebody who has an incentive and seeing their competitors �*s. but an incentive and seeing their competitors 's._ an incentive and seeing their competitors 's. but he hasn't interfered — competitors 's. but he hasn't interfered in _ competitors 's. but he hasn't interfered in our— competitors 's. but he hasn't interfered in ourjournalism l competitors 's. but he hasn't| interfered in ourjournalism at competitors 's. but he hasn't i interfered in ourjournalism at all and i'm gratefulfor that. i wouldn't want to be there if he had interfered. he thinks the paper should have its independence, it should have its independence, it should do itsjob with integrity. not all the stories are favourable and he doesn't command, he doesn't criticise us, he never suppressed a story, he doesn't suggest any stories. and his competitors know we cover them fairly as well. we have full access to his competitors, regardless of the field. whether it's in retailing or i cloud computing or space, commercial space. they know we cover them independently, otherwise they wouldn't talk to us, but they do. that was the outgoing editor of the washington post and you can hear that on the bbc sounds apt. by the way, you may have heard about the extended interview for lot —— from last week. do check out on the podcast. let's pick up on some things mentioned there. marty talked about having the pockets of a billionaire to fund pieces but don't like digging into the trump administration. the huffington post, which wasn't owned by both feed, is hunting down its —— shutting down its news operation. how does it fund its news operation. how does it fund its work? i its news operation. how does it fund its work? ~ . its news operation. h