now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. scientists have developed covid vaccines with unprecedented speed. now it's the manufacture and distribution which will dictate how quickly the pandemic can be tamed. my guest today, adar poonawalla, is boss of the biggest vaccine producer in the world, serum institute of india. he went all—in on a production deal with astrazeneca, and for many of us, the jab we get will have been made by him. he is a super—rich vaccine visionary. is he is driven by more than profit? adar poonawalla, in poona, india, welcome to hardtalk. nice to be with you. it is a pleasure to have you on the show. the numbers are staggering. you have the ambition to produce more thani billion doses of your covid vaccine a year. how is the plan going? you know, that's exactly right. when we announced to do this, there was a lot of scepticism that would we be able to scale up in time and stockpile all these vaccines? when we fast—forward now to january of this year, you know, we have already dispatched more than 95 million doses to more than 50 countries, and we have produced more than 100 million doses already. so i think we are well on track and we are hoping to scale up further. we are producing 60 million doses of vaccines on a monthly basis. right, but to meet your own visionary plan, you committed to producing pretty much 100 million doses per month. i'm reading between the lines of what you have just told me, you are not there yet, are you? you know, we had a tragedy, a fire broke out which you may have heard about on the 21st of january, destroying part of the filling line, so that set us back by about two months, but we are trying to claw that time back. so come april, beginning of may, we will be producing, and the output will be 100 million doses a month. when you look at what we have made so far, probably around 250 million, and add that to a production rate of 100 million doses from may, we will conservatively reach a billion doses by the end of may 2021. you will be the biggest single vaccine producer in the world. you really matter, and it is interesting to look at your decision—making process. it seems to me you took a massive gamble early in this covid pandemic crisis. you decided you were going to massively expand your facilities without knowing whether the scientists would actually be able to produce a vaccine quickly and effectively? absolutely right. i mean, you know, it was a calculated risk. in fact, it was this time last year that we had to make these big bets and decisions, in not only ordering equipment, raising the financing and partnering with the right technology partners like astrazeneca and and a bunch of others, so that we would be in a position this year to roll out, you know, hundreds of millions of doses of different vaccines, notjust the astrazeneca product. so it was a calculated risk, you know, and if i hadn't have committed to doing that, millions of people across the world would've received these doses towards the end of this year instead of the beginning of this year. so i had a choice, an ethical choice to make. it wasn'tjust a pure business decision in this case. we had to commit being in the position that i was, almost a sense of responsibility. interesting you say that. you say it is about ethics, but many people around the world watching this will be wondering what is in it for you. so tell me, what is in it for you? just the feeling i could play a small role in protecting the world. for decades, serum institute have been doing that with paediatric vaccines for children, but here was an opportunity to demonstrate to the world that this is an indian manufacturer that can provide good quality vaccines across the globe. we have already done that for more than 50 countries, as i said, with more to come. i understand, i have looked into the background of your business that your father set up and you have made hundreds of millions of dollars out of. you are phenomenally successful business in india, one of, sort of, poster businessess for indian entrepreneurship. the profit motive does matter to you, and i wonder if you see your association with rolling out these vast numbers of covid—19 vaccines as something that is in the long term commercial interest of your business? so just to put things in perspective, you know, our turnover of our businesses is close to $1 billion. if you look at any of the western companies, pfizer, moderna, gsk, sanofi, and many other, they get into tens of billions of dollars turnover. we are quite small in terms of value and turnover. we are able to do this because the economies of scale and because we don't believe in making super profits, we believe in making profits but, of course, not to the extent, especially in a pandemic, we don't want to be seen profiteering. of course, profits are good, they are essential, we believe in making profits because you need to innovate and reinvest in r&d. but i try to keep that at a reasonable level, balancing equitable access to the poorer nations. so let's be very specific for people around the world, when you are shipping out, as you are doing now, millions of doses to poorer countries, what are you charging them a dose? we know 0xford astrazeneca have committed to making this essentially free, from their point of view, until the pandemic is over. what about you as the manufacturer, what are you taking out of it? absolutely, so, you know, we are working on a very fine margin of ten or 15%, if at all. in fact, that changes as the volumes go up and down. we are providing the bulk of our vaccine at $3 a dose. so if you look at it as a factor of six or seven times cheaper and more affordable than the other vaccines on the market at the moment. let's talk about politics. there is always politics in a mass enterprise like this, vaccinating the world, your prime minister, narendra modi, has boasted about india being the pharmacy of the world, and there has been a great deal of national pride staked in having indian companies at the forefront of the global vaccination effort. your vaccine is obviously, ultimately in origin, the oxford astrazeneca one, it's not indian. but there is an indian alternative, and i know that in earlyjanuary this year, you poured some scorn on the indian alternative. in one quote you seemed to suggest it was no more effective than water. do you regret doing that now? no, no, those statements were just misconstrued. what i meant to say is that all the vaccines need to pass efficacy — which is the gold standard to prove that a vaccine works — are the ones made by pfizer, moderna and astrazeneca, was in no respect trying to cause any aspirations on any great indian vaccine companies that do exist in our country. we will be making a vaccine eventually ourselves as well. look, i go back a long way with doctor ella, and we are good friends in fact. when it seemed i was trying to criticise a fellow vaccine producer, that was not my intention. if there was genuinely a spat, in two days it would not have resulted in a public statement to say we are all united and there has been a misunderstanding. so that was made very clear. that wouldn't be the case if we genuinely harboured any animosity towards any vaccine producer. in fact, we are hoping very much that all other vaccine producer scale up because right now the pressure on serum institute is unprecedented. we are being tugged at by different governments in the world. we need to support astrazeneca for the countries they need to suppluy vaccines to. and we are being literally forced to supply as much product to the indian government as well. we are hoping that many other vaccine producers succeed. interesting you say you are being tugged from all sides. because i do note that at the beginning of the year you were loudly proclaiming the degree to which you would be capable to ship vaccine very quickly to many countries around the world, including developing countries, which of course through the covax programme they are having to get their hands on vaccine which they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford. it is cealrly very important. it is clearly very important. but then i noticed come the end of february, you were tweeting out that, actually, your priorities had to shift and you are looking at providing vaccine for the indian domestic market first. is that because you were pressured by the government to divert some of your production to the internal market? yes. you know, if you go back to january, we were planning to equitably, and we have done so so far, so in all fairness, the indian government has allowed us to export 50% of our volume so far to other nations, and we can see that with the 51 countries, if not more, that have already received doses, millions of doses. so if you look at the 95 million doses we have already dispatched, only half of that has gone to india. having said that, you know, the government wanted to scale up its vaccination drive, and because other suppliers, both globally and in india were taking time to scale up, they needed the maximum volumes they could get from us. and that is why i had to send out a message to our partners, friends and countries that were expecting more doses in these two to three months only, that they would be facing a few delays because we need to take care of our country as well as serving the needs of other nations. it was with respect that we have to balance that out. we are trying our best to equally distribute as many doses as we can. do you think the indian government is failing right now? because if one looks at the latest figures, they suggest a percentage of the indian population that has had a first dose of vaccine is under 2%. compare that with the united kingdom, where close to, i think, a third of the population, maybe even over a third, has already had at least one dose of the vaccine. you know, india proclaims its commitment to vaccine diplomacy, and yet it doesn't seem to be getting very far with vaccinating its own people? no, i don't think that is accurate for the reason that, you know, india is doing a greatjob. now we are at almost 2 million vaccinations per day, which is probably higher than most other nations. i don't think anyone is doing that level of vaccinations. you know, if you look at the population of the uk compared to india, you cannot compare it. so vaccinating even 15 to 20% of beneficiaries in the uk to get the vaccine, that is not even close to 1% of the indian population. as a population, as a country, as a nation, our population size is so big, that it will be a while until we cover 20—30% of our people. we have 1.4 billion people, and we are trying to hit the target, the government has set a very ambitious target that by september this year, they hope to have given two doses to at least 300 million people. right, but as you say, the numbers are so vast that even that represents only less than a third of the indian population. exactly, exactly. so i dare say, some indians will be watching this and thinking, "given the scale of the challenge at home, why is mr poonawalla every day exporting millions of doses of his vaccine to countries in africa, in europe, in the americas, when actually, those doses are so desperately needed at home?" absolutely. so if you look at the proportion of doses we are giving to india and other countries, you know, india is getting 50% of our capacity, which is huge. now, as an indian, a lot of citizens have reached out to say, "why are you doing this, why are you exporting doses?" for the very simple reason, forget the ethical point, that we are all one human race trying to get out of this pandemic, you know, humanity has no colour, class or race, we need to protect everybody so that everyone is safe. but to understand this, you know, the economies in other countries, businesses in other countries, they cannot open up and the dependence of import, export and trade that indian businesses — where jobs are at stake and all of that — for it to open up as a global economy, even for india to benefit in its own self—interest, if other countries don't open up their economies and reach a certain rate of vaccinations, then even india cannot fully open up its economy. so, actually, we are all interconnected, and to explain this to an ordinary citizen in india is, of course, challenging, but slowly they are understanding the gravity of the global problem. you've long been a close ally of bill gates. he has given you plenty of praise over the years for your work in the field of vaccinations. you and he, i think, have both said you want to see half of the entire world's population vaccinated through the course of the next year. but then i look at the actual numbers right now provided by covax and others, and one can see there is a vast mismatch between what's happening in the developed and the developing world. there are a whole host of countries, i just looked, countries like namibia and a whole host of others in sub—saharan africa which haven't even begun their vaccination programmes. do you really believe that covax and the global initiative to help the poorer countries is going to work? i mean, it's already working. it's just that it will take a little bit longer. i don't know if in one year we will reach a 50% level of vaccinations because, you know, we need all of the other vaccine producers to scale up as well. as soon as they do that, you know, if you would ask me this question in the next quarter or the quarter after that, we would probably be at a much closer point to the 50% mark. but as i said publicly months ago, it's going to take at least two years before we reach a 50% market, especially now that we can see the kind of capacity available and the way the countries are also able to vaccinate, you know, at a certain speed and pace. that is very evident and i agree with you there, it's going be at least two years. do you see problems looming? the first problem i'm looking at is signs in america that the biden administration is so worried about the shortage of certain key supplies, including some raw materials, some tubing assemblies, that they are putting export controls on those items — items that you need. is there a danger that, despite your desire to ramp up production ever quicker, you may not be able to because other countries may not provide you with the kit? absolutely, so i'm hoping, we're all hoping here in this part of the world that the biden administration looks at the more global perspective and allows a relaxation at least, even if it is a temporary one, for filters, bags and these key raw materials that are only sourced from the us. because again, to vaccinate the global community, it's notjust the us manufacturers of vaccines that can do it, we need everyone here collectively to be able to do that. that's one problem. the other one is what i have spoken about earlier, is global harmonisation on the regulatory front. you have a few countries and a few regulators. i think if they all get together, india, china, us, russia and other regions, then we will be able to shave off months between having the product ready and it being shipped out because you don't have the emergency use licences, because every different regulator has a different format of information and data that needs to be submitted. but essentially, the data is the same because it is after all these efficacy trials that have been globally conducted, and you just have to provide that data in a different way. that harmonisation will also, in my opinion, shave off months. i mean even if you look at our example, it took us a month and a half before we had the doses ready injanuary, on the second, and being able to ship it to covax because we had to wait for the who approval to come in febuary. if you are an advocate of all this collaboration, opening up and ramping up production across the world as quickly as possible, why is that you publicly oppose efforts to suspend the controls on intellectual property, controls which do limit the ability of companies around the world to develop vaccines, why are you opposed to that? because your own government in india and the south african government have really pushed for that at the world trade organization? no, i am not opposed to it. i think that part was misconstrued. i was asked, is it a limiting factor, to which i answered that sharing of ip is happening today in a collaborative sense. so it is not limiting the scaling up of vaccines. what is limiting the scaling up of the manufacture of vaccines is you have limited sites around the world who have the capability and know—how to do it, which is number one. number two is, you know, access to these raw materials, like we spoke of, and the regulatory part. it is these three things, in my opinion, which are the limiting factors, not so much the sharing of ip. of course, i am an advocate forsharing of ip, who wouldn't want that? i only meant that it is not a major limiting factor right now because anybody who has ip today is willing to share it with manufacturers so they can scale it up. moderna, johnson &johnson, they are collaborating to share each other�*s ip and help manufacture each other�*s products, so that's great. what lessons should we learn from the last year in terms of a global response to the next pandemic? bill gates has said we need to build something like a global pandemic nato, that is prepared, ready, global operation, a reserve, that will cope and conquer the next pandemic threat. do you buy that? do you think we have to change the way we operate, become much more collaborative and frankly, collectively more ready? yes, i mean we have learnt a lot of lessons on what to do and what not to do. but i have already begun building largest pandemic facility two years ago, about two and a half years ago, where we can build and keep idle capacity, of course, that will need a lot of funding from governments to go on. but imagine if you had a facility that could make 1 billion doses within 2—3 months�* notice, that can be activated, you don't have to go around finding different manufacturers to do it, and it can handle multiple different technologies from subunit protein vaccines and all of that. so i have already begun to do that. i will eventually go to governments and offer this, you know, to different regional governments, so they don't have to build their own facilities which might become too costly and impossible for them to do. so, this is what i am planning to do for the, god forbid, the next pandemic or if this pandemic continues and drags on with these various different mutated strains where you might need new vaccines to be produced at short notice. i think in india they call you the prince of vaccines, your father, the founder of the company, the king of vaccines. it is a strange position to be in, isn't it? the more we fear pandemic and the more we focus on vaccines, the more successful your company becomes. it is a question of public good and profit. i suppose people around the world will want to know, in the end, which drives you more? well, it is the balance, really, isn't it? because you do need to make a certain level of profit to be able to innovate, build capacity, produce new vaccines and scale up. but you know, i think definitely what drives us and our philosophy has always been providing vaccines at an affordable price. i mean, take the pandemic right now — we could have sold his vaccines at $7 or $8, you know? we have an agreement with oxford and astrazeneca that we are allowed to make a profit because as a major manufacturer, you know, we have commercial requirements. but we have chosen intentionally not to do so because of our philosophy, and we are maintaining that through this pandemic. you know, to some of the richer nations we may end up selling the product at $4 or $5, but we haven't even begun to do that in a large way at the moment because we want to give access to the poorer nations at this moment, and maybe later on, we can raise our prices when the pandemic stress goes out, and the desperation and the dependence of countries goes down, because we don't want to ever take advantage of our situation, which is a unique situation at the moment. adar poonawalla, it has been a pleasure having you on hardtalk. thank you very much indeed. pleasure, pleasure talking to you. hello there. in comparison to this time last week, it is a much quieter weather story to tell. but i suspect we will be chasing cloud amounts around over the next few days, just like we had on monday. in cornwall, it was a beautiful day with blue sky and sunshine, similar story for northern ireland. but further north and west, cloud gathered as we went through the day, rather threatening looking skies, indication of what's to come. yes, we have some weather fronts bringing some rain into the far northwest. high—pressure is trying to build in from the southwest, but some of this rain will be heavy through the night. isobars squeezing together as well, strengthening winds particularly in the far north of scotland. now, the rain will sink its way south and east, a lot of cloud across the country, so a relatively mild night for many. so as we start off tuesday, there will still be some heavy rain to come, particularly across scotland accompanied by some strong gusty winds from the northwest. widely, we could see gusts in excess of 30 mph first thing, but in the far north, 40—115 mph not out of the question. that strong wind will help push the rain south and east as we go through the day, quite a clearance, the winds will fall light, the sunshine will come through. the only exception, perhaps, across east anglia, essex and kent, it may well stay cloudy for much of the day. top temperatures though through the afternoon, generally around 10—15 celsius — not bad. now, high pressure will anchor itself across northern ireland. a little bit more of a breeze always around the periphery of the high, and that is going to continue to drag in cloud amounts, hence the reason that we will be chasing cloud from time to time. so on wednesday, there will be quite cloudy skies with the odd light shower into the far north and some cloud coming in off the north sea, so sheltered western parts of england and wales seeing the best of the sunshine potentially. now, as we move into the end of the week, the high pressure just moves a little bit further west again, and that allows more of a northeasterly flow, a cooler source, particularly across east anglia and southeast england. so what that will do is it potentially breaks up the cloud to allow more sunshine to come through, but it means that it might feel just that little bit cooler the further south and east you are by the end of the week. further west, it stays largely dry, but there is always the risk of a little more cloud. this is bbc news. i'm sally bundock with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. the world health organization urges countries to keep using the astrazeneca coronavirus vaccine — as a growing list of european nations suspend injections. the influential sister of north korea's leader says the us must avoid causing a stink if it wants peace — as america's top diplomat heads to the region. making history — deb haaland is confirmed as us secretary of the interior — becoming the first native american to lead a cabinet agency. it's a moment that each of these nominees will never forget. and the nominations are out for this year's delayed 0scars — the most ethnically diverse in the history of the academy awards.

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