welcome welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. scientists have developed covid vaccines with unprecedented speed. now it's the manufacture and distribution which will dictate how quickly the pandemic can be tamed. my guest today, adar poonawalla, is boss of the biggest vaccine producer in the world, serum institute of india. he went all in on a production deal with astrazeneca and for many of us, the jab we get will have been made by him. he is a super rich vaccine visionary. is he is driven by more than profit? adar poonawalla, in india, welcome to hardtalk. nice to be read . it welcome to hardtalk. nice to be ready- it is _ welcome to hardtalk. nice to be ready- it is a _ welcome to hardtalk. nice to be ready. it is a pleasure _ welcome to hardtalk. nice to be ready. it is a pleasure to - welcome to hardtalk. nice to be ready. it is a pleasure to have - ready. it is a pleasure to have ou on ready. it is a pleasure to have you on the — ready. it is a pleasure to have you on the show. _ ready. it is a pleasure to have you on the show. the - ready. it is a pleasure to have| you on the show. the numbers are staggering, you have the ambition to produce more than i billion doses of your covid vaccine a year. how is the plan going? vaccine a year. how is the plan auoin ? ., vaccine a year. how is the plan oiiin? ., 4' ., vaccine a year. how is the plan iioin? ., ~ ., ., vaccine a year. how is the plan ioiin? ., ~ ., ., , going? you know, that is exactly right. _ going? you know, that is exactly right. when - going? you know, that is exactly right. when we i exactly right. when we announced to do this, there was announced to do this, there was a lot of scepticism that would be be able to scale up in time and stockpile all these vaccines? fast forward to january of this year, we have already dispatched more than 95 million doses to more than 50 countries and we have produced more than 100 million doses already. i think we are on track and ready to scale up further. we are producing 60 million doses of vaccines on a monthly basis. but million doses of vaccines on a monthly basis.— million doses of vaccines on a monthly basis. but to meet your own visionary — monthly basis. but to meet your own visionary plan, _ monthly basis. but to meet your own visionary plan, you - own visionary plan, you committed to producing pretty much 100 million doses per month. reading between the lines of what you have just told me, you are not there yet, are you? told me, you are not there yet, are ou? ~ ., ., told me, you are not there yet, are you?— are you? we had a tragedy, a fire out. _ are you? we had a tragedy, a fire out, broke _ are you? we had a tragedy, a fire out, broke which - are you? we had a tragedy, a fire out, broke which you - are you? we had a tragedy, aj fire out, broke which you may have heard about on the 21st of january, destroying part of the filling line, so that set us back by about two months, but we are trying to claw that back. so in april, beginning of may, the output will be 100 million doses a month. when you look at what we have made so far, probably around 250 million and add that to a production rate of 100 million doses from may, we will conservatory reach a billion doses by the end of may 2021. you will be the biggest single vaccine producer in the world. he really matter and it is interesting to look at your decision making process. it seems to me you took a massive gamble early in this covid pandemic crisis. you decided you would massively expand your facilities without knowing whether the scientists would be able to produce a vaccine quickly and effectively? absolutely right. it was a calculated risk. in fact, it was this time last year that we had to make these big bets and decisions, in not only ordering equipment, creating the financing and partnering with the right partners like astrazeneca and a bunch of others, that we would be in a position this year to roll out hundreds of millions of doses of different vaccines, notjust the astrazeneca product. it was a calculated risk and if i hadn't have committed to doing that, millions of people across the world would have received these doses towards the end of these doses towards the end of the year instead of the beginning of the year. i had an ethical choice to make. it wasn'tjust ethical choice to make. it wasn't just a ethical choice to make. it wasn'tjust a pure business decision in this case. we had to commit being in the position i was, almost a sense of responsibility. i was, almost a sense of res-onsibili . , , ., responsibility. interesting you sa that, responsibility. interesting you say that. you _ responsibility. interesting you say that, you say _ responsibility. interesting you say that, you say it _ responsibility. interesting you say that, you say it is - responsibility. interesting you say that, you say it is about . say that, you say it is about ethics but many people around the world watching this will be wondering what is in it for you. so tell me, what is in it for you? you. so tell me, what is in it foryou?_ you. so tell me, what is in it for ou? , . for you? just a feeling i could ila a for you? just a feeling i could play a small— for you? just a feeling i could play a small role _ for you? just a feeling i could play a small role in _ for you? just a feeling i could | play a small role in protecting the well. for decades, serum institute of india have been doing that with paediatric vaccines for children, but this was an opportunity to demonstrate to the wealth that this is an indian manufacturer that can provide good quality vaccines across the globe. we have already done that for more than 50 countries, as i said, with more to come. i than 50 countries, as i said, with more to come.- with more to come. i have looked into _ with more to come. i have looked into the _ with more to come. i have | looked into the background with more to come. i have . looked into the background of your business your for the setup and you have made hundreds of millions of dollars out of. you are phenomenally successful in india, one of the posters for indian entrepreneurship. the prophet does matter to you and i wonder if you see your association with rolling out these vast numbers of covid—19 vaccines is something in the long term kimeli interest of your business?— kimeli interest of your business? , ., , , business? just to put things in persoective. — business? just to put things in perspective, our _ business? just to put things in perspective, our turnover - business? just to put things in perspective, our turnover of i perspective, our turnover of our businesses is close to $1 billion. if you look at pfizer, moderna, gsk, they get into tens of billions of dollars. we are quite small in terms of value and turnover. we are able to do this because the economies of scale and we don't believe in making super profits, we believe in making profits, we believe in making profits but not to the extent, especially in a pandemic, we don't want to be seen profiteering. prophets of god, they are essential, we believe in making profits because you need to innovate and reinvest. but i try to keep that at a reasonable level, balancing access to the poorer nations. let's be very specific, when you are shipping out, as you are doing now, millions of doses to poorer countries, what are you charging them a dose? we know 0xford astrazeneca have committed to making this essentially free, from their point of view until the pandemic is over. what about you as the manufacturer, what are you taking out of it? absolutely, we are working on a very fine margin of ten or 15%, if at all. that changes as the volumes go up and down. we are providing the bulk of our vaccine as $3 a dose. that is six or seven times cheaper and more affordable than the other vaccines on the market at the moment. vaccines on the market at the moment-— moment. let's talk about politics. _ moment. let's talk about politics, there _ moment. let's talk about politics, there is - moment. let's talk about politics, there is always l politics, there is always politics, there is always politics in a mass enterprise like this, vaccinating their wealth, your prime minister, narendra modi has boasted that indy is the pharmacy of the world and there has been a great deal of national pride staked in having indian companies at the forefront of the global vaccination effort, your vaccine is obviously, ultimately, in origin, the oxford astrazeneca one, it is 0xford astrazeneca one, it is not indian. but there is an indian alternative and i noticed in january this year indian alternative and i noticed injanuary this year he pulled some scorn on the indian alternative. in one quote you seem to suggest it was no more effective than water. do you regret doing that now? those statements — regret doing that now? those statements were _ regret doing that now? those l statements were misconstrued. what i meant to say is that all the vaccines need to pass efficacy, which is the gold standard to prove a vaccine works. 0ther standard to prove a vaccine works. other ones made by pfizer, moderna and astrazeneca was in no respect trying to cause any aspirations and any great indian vaccine companies that do exist in our country. we will be making a vaccine eventually ourselves as well. i go back a long way with the doctors and we are good friends. when it seemed i was trying to criticise a fella vaccine producer, that was not my intention. if there was genuinely a spat, in two days it would not have resulted in a public statement to say we are all united and there has been a misunderstanding. that was made very clear. that wouldn't be the case if we had harboured any animosity towards any vaccine producer. in fact, we are hoping that very much all of the vaccine producer scale up of the vaccine producer scale up because right now the pressure on serum institute of india is unprecedented. we are being touted by different government in the well, we need to support astrazeneca and we are being literally forced to supply as much product to the indian government as well. we are hoping that many other vaccine producers succeed. interesting you say you are being pulled from all sides. at the beginning of the year you were loudly proclaiming the degree to which you would be capable to ship vaccine very quickly to many countries around the world, including developing countries, which through the covax programme they are having to get their hands on vaccine which they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford. it is very important. but then i noticed at the end of february, you were tweeting out that your priorities had to shift and you are looking at providing vaccine for the indian domestic market first. is that because you were pressured by the government to divert some of your production to the internal market?- to the internal market? yes. you know. — to the internal market? yes. you know. if— to the internal market? yes. you know, if you _ to the internal market? yes. you know, if you go - to the internal market? yes. you know, if you go back- to the internal market? yes. you know, if you go back to | you know, if you go back to january, we were planning to equitably come and we have done so so far, in all fairness, the indian government has allowed us to explore 50% of our volume so far to other nations and we can see that with the 51 countries, if not more, that have already received millions of doses. if you look at the 95 million doses we have already dispatched, only half of that as gone to india. having said that, the government wanted to scale up its vaccination drive and because of the supplies, both globally and in india were taking time to scale up, they needed the maximum volumes they could get from us. that is why i had to send out a message to our partners, friends and countries that were expecting more doses in these two to three months only, they would be fitting if you delay is because we need to take care of our country as well as serving the needs of other nations. it was with respect to that we have to balance that out. we are trying our best to equally distribute as many doses as we can. y ., ~ distribute as many doses as we can. , ., ~ ., can. do you think the indian government _ can. do you think the indian government is _ can. do you think the indian government is failing - can. do you think the indian government is failing right l government is failing right now? when we look at the latest figures, they suggest a percentage of the indian population that has had a first dose of vaccine is under 2%. compare that with the united kingdom, we are close to a third of the population, maybe even over a third, has already had at least one dose of the vaccine. india proclaims its commitment to vaccine diplomacy and yet it doesn't seem to be getting very far with vaccinating its own people? i don't think that is accurate for the reason that india is doing a greatjob. we are at almost 2 million vaccinations per day, which is probably higher than most other nations. i don't think anyone is doing that level of vaccinations. if you look at the population of the uk compared to india, you cannot compare it. even vaccine 15 to 20% of beneficiaries in the uk, that is not even close to 1% of the indian population. as a population, as a country, as a nation are population size is so big it will be a while until we cover 20, 30% of our people. we have 1.4 billion people. we have 1.4 billion people and we are trying to hit the target, the government has hit a very ambitious target that by september this year they hope to have given two doses to at least 300 million people. doses to at least 300 million iieole. �* , ., doses to at least 300 million neale, �* 4, doses to at least 300 million ieoile_ �* 4, doses to at least 300 million iieole.�* , , people. but you say the numbers are so vast _ people. but you say the numbers are so vast that _ people. but you say the numbers are so vast that even _ people. but you say the numbers are so vast that even that - are so vast that even that represents only less than a third of the indian population. exactly, exactly.— third of the indian population. exactly, exactly. some indians will be watching _ exactly, exactly. some indians will be watching this _ exactly, exactly. some indians will be watching this and - will be watching this and saying, given the challenge at home, why is adar poonawalla every single day exporting millions of doses of his vaccine to countries in africa, in europe, in the americas when actually, those doses also desperately needed at home? absolutely. if you look at the proportion of doses we are giving to india and other countries, india is getting 50% of our capacity, which is huge. as an indian, a lot of citizens have said, why are you doing this, why are you exporting doses? forget the ethical point that we are all one human race trying to get out of this pandemic, humanity has no colour, class or race. we need to protect everybody so that everyone is safe. but to understand this, the economies in other countries, businesses in other countries, businesses in other countries, they cannot open up and the dependence of import, export and trade that indian businesses where jobs are at stake and all of that, for it it up and up as a global economy, even for india to benefit in its own self interest, if other countries don't open up their economies and reach a certain rate of vaccinations, even india cannot fully open up its economy. actually, we are all interconnected and to explain this to an ordinary citizen in india is challenging, but slowly they are understanding the gravity of the global problem. the gravity of the global problem-— the gravity of the global iroblem. ., ., ., , ., problem. you have long been a close ally _ problem. you have long been a close ally of — problem. you have long been a close ally of bill _ problem. you have long been a close ally of bill gates, - problem. you have long been a close ally of bill gates, he - close ally of bill gates, he has given you plenty of praise over the years for your work in the field of vaccinations. you and he, ithink the field of vaccinations. you and he, i think you the field of vaccinations. you and he, ithink you have the field of vaccinations. you and he, i think you have both said you want to see half of the entire world's population vaccinated through the course of the next year. but then i look at the actual numbers right now provided by covax and others and one can see there is a vast mismatch between what is happening in the developed and the developing world. there are a whole host of countries, countries like namibia and a whole host of others in sub saharan africa which haven't even begun their vaccination programmes. do you really believe that covax and the global initiative to help the poorer countries is going to work? it poorer countries is going to work? , ., ., , poorer countries is going to work? ., , ., 4' work? it is already working. it's 'ust work? it is already working. its just it — work? it is already working. it's just it will _ work? it is already working. it's just it will take - work? it is already working. it's just it will take a - work? it is already working. it's just it will take a little i it's just it will take a little bit longer. i don't know in one year we will reach a 50% level of vaccinations because we need all of the other vaccine producers to scale up as well. as soon as they do that, if you would ask me this question in the next quarter over quarter after that, we would probably be at a much closer point to the 50% mark. but as i said publicly months ago, it is going to take at least two years before we reach a 50% market, especially now we can see the kind of capacity available and the weather countries are also able to vaccinate at a certain speed and pace. that is very evident and pace. that is very evident and i agree it will be at least two years. do and i agree it will be at least two years-— and i agree it will be at least two ears. , , two years. do you see problems looming? _ two years. do you see problems looming? the — two years. do you see problems looming? the first _ two years. do you see problems looming? the first problem - two years. do you see problems looming? the first problem is l looming? the first problem is i'm looking at is signed in america, the biden administration is so worried about shortage of certain key suppliers, including some raw materials, some tubing assemblies that they are putting export controls on those items, items that you need. is there a danger that, despite your desire to ramp up production ever quicker, you may not be able to because of the countries may not provide you with the kit?— you with the kit? absolutely, so we are _ you with the kit? absolutely, so we are all— you with the kit? absolutely, so we are all hoping - you with the kit? absolutely, so we are all hoping here - you with the kit? absolutely, so we are all hoping here in i so we are all hoping here in this part of the world that the biden administration looks at the more global perspective and allows a relaxation at least if it is a temporary one for filters, bags and these key raw materials that are only sourced from the us. again, to vaccinate the global community, it's notjust the us manufacturers of vaccines that can do it, we need everyone here collectively to be able to do that. that is one problem. the other one is, what i have spoken about the area is global harmonisation on the regulatory front. you have a few countries and a few regulatory countries. you feel get—together, india, china, us, russia and other regions, we will be able to shave off months between having the product ready and it being shipped out because you don't have the emergency use licenses, because every different regulator has a different regulator has a different format of information and data that needs to be submitted. essentially, the data is the same because it is after these efficacy trials that have been globally conducted, you have to provide that data in a different way. that harmonisation will also, in my opinion, shave off months. if you look at the example, it a month and a half before we had the doses ready in january, before we had the doses ready injanuary, on the second and being able to ship it to covax because we were waiting for the who approval to come. if because we were waiting for the who approval to come.- who approval to come. if you are an advocate _ who approval to come. if you are an advocate of _ who approval to come. if you are an advocate of all - who approval to come. if you are an advocate of all this - are an advocate of all this collaboration, opening up and ramping up production across the world as quickly as possible, why is that you publicly oppose efforts to suspend the controls on intellectual property, controls which do limit the ability of companies around the world to develop vaccines, why are you opposed to that? government in india and the south african have pushed for that at the world trade organization? i am not opposed — world trade organization? i am not opposed to _ world trade organization? i am not opposed to it. _ world trade organization? i am not opposed to it. i _ world trade organization? i am not opposed to it. i think- world trade organization? i —n not opposed to it. i think that part was misconstrued. i was asked,isit part was misconstrued. i was asked, is it a limiting factor to which i answered that sharing is happening in a collaborative sense. it is not limiting the scaling up of vaccines. what is limiting the scaling up of the manufacture of vaccines if you have limited sites around the world who have the capability and know how to do it, which is number one. number two is access to these raw materials likely spoke of and the regulatory part. it is these three things which are these three things which are the limiting factors. of course, i am an advocate for sharing of it, who wouldn't want that? but it is not a major limiting factor right now because anybody who has the dating out is willing to share it with manufacture so they can scale it up. moderna, johnson & johnson, they are collaborating to share and help manufacture each other�*s products, which is great. each other's products, which is ireat. ~ ., each other's products, which is ireat. . ., , each other's products, which is ireat. ., ,, ., great. what lessons should we learn from _ great. what lessons should we learn from the _ great. what lessons should we learn from the last _ great. what lessons should we learn from the last year - great. what lessons should we learn from the last year in - learn from the last year in terms of a global response to the next pandemic. bill gates has said we need to build a global pandemic native, that is prepared, ready, global operation, a reserve that will cope and conquer the next pandemic threat. do you agree with that, do you think we have to change the way we operate, become much more collaborative and frankly, collectively more ready? and frankly, collectively more read ? , ., ., ready? yes, i mean we have learnt a _ ready? yes, i mean we have learnt a lot _ ready? yes, i mean we have learnt a lot of _ ready? yes, i mean we have learnt a lot of lessons - ready? yes, i mean we have learnt a lot of lessons on - ready? yes, i mean we have i learnt a lot of lessons on what to do and whatnot learnt a lot of lessons on what to do and what not to do. i have begun building the well�*s largest pandemic facility two years ago, about two and a half years ago, about two and a half years ago, about two and a half years ago, where we can build and keep idle capacity, but that will need a lot of funding from governments to go on. but imagine if you had a facility that could make 1 imagine if you had a facility that could make1 billion imagine if you had a facility that could make 1 billion doses within a couple of months notice? that can be activated, you don't have to go round finding different manufacturers to do it and it can handle multiple different technologies from subunit vaccines and all of that. i have already begun to do that. i will eventually go to governments and offer this to different regional governments, so they don't have to build their own facilities which might be too costly and impossible for them to do. this is what i am planning to do, for the god forbid, next pandemic or if this pandemic continues and drags on with these different mutated strains where you might need new vaccines to be produced at short notice. i vaccines to be produced at short notice.— vaccines to be produced at short notice. i think in india they call— short notice. i think in india they call you _ short notice. i think in india they call you the _ short notice. i think in india they call you the prince - short notice. i think in india they call you the prince of. they call you the prince of vaccines, yourfather, the founder of the company, the king of vaccines. it is a strange position to be in, the more we fear pandemic and the more we fear pandemic and the more we fear pandemic and the more we focus on vaccines, the more we focus on vaccines, the more successful your company becomes. it is a question of public goods and profit. i suppose people around the world will want to know in the end, which drives you more? it is the balance, _ which drives you more? it is the balance, isn't— which drives you more? it is the balance, isn't it? - which drives you more? it is the balance, isn't it? you i which drives you more? it 3 the balance, isn't it? you do need to make a certain level of profit to be able to innovate at the capacity, produce new vaccines and scale up. but you know, i think definitely what drives us and our philosophy has always been providing vaccines at an affordable price. take the pandemic right now, we could have sold his vaccines at seven or have an agreement with 0xford vaccines at seven or have an agreement with oxford and astrazeneca that we are allowed to make a profit because as a major manufacturer we have commercial requirements. but we have chosen intentionally not to do so because of our philosophy and we are maintaining that through this pandemic. to some of the richer nations we may end up selling the product to four or $5, but we haven't even begun to do that in a large way at the moment because we want to give access to the poorer nations at the moment and maybe later on we can raise our prices when the pandemic stress goes out and the desperation, the dependence of countries goes down because we don't want to ever take advantage of our situation, which is a unique situation, which is a unique situation at the moment. adar poonawalla. — situation at the moment. adar poonawalla, it _ situation at the moment. adar poonawalla, it has _ situation at the moment. adar poonawalla, it has been - situation at the moment. adar poonawalla, it has been a - poonawalla, it has been a pleasure having you on hardtalk. thank you very much indeed. ., , , ., , indeed. pleasure, pleasure talkin i indeed. pleasure, pleasure talking to _ indeed. pleasure, pleasure talking to you. _ hello. last week, the uk took quite a battering from strong winds. there was some heavy rain at times, too, and we spent a lot of time talking about low pressure. for the week ahead, the biggest difference will be lighter winds. we're going to be focusing on high pressure, trying to build in. this high here, pushing up from the south—west. it's not an entirely straightforward story, though. we will see some weak eatherfronts running into the north of our high. that will mean some showery rain perhaps across the south—east of england first thing on monday, and then some more clouds generally pushing in to the west as the day goes on. some rain across northern ireland, a little bit for western scotland, wales and the south—west on monday afternoon. the winds, much lighter than we've been used to. the sunshine in the east should just about cling on until the evening. temperatures about where we'd expect for the time of year, perhaps a degree or so above. through monday evening, overnight into tuesday, the warm weather front continues to push its way eastwards across the uk. this cold front pushes down from the north, but the air around it has actually come from the atlantic. so don't be too concerned about the temperatures falling behind this front as it slides south during tuesday. some cloud, some light rain across england and wales first thing, but a lot of sunshine come the afternoon and temperatures looking pretty healthy, perhaps up to 14 degrees. mayjust get a bit of cloud lingering across the south—east of england. could turn a little chilly overnight tuesday into wednesday, with clear skies under the high. but for wednesday, the high well established, a lot of sunshine on the way, perhaps a little bit more cloud at times coming into the far east of england. more cloud for scotland could give us the odd light shower here. but with plenty of sunshine, a fine day with temperatures up to maybe 12 or 13 degrees again. from midweek onwards, though, particularly wednesday night, quite a significant change to come. the high's still there, but this low runs down into scandinavia and it switches our wind direction to a northerly or northeasterly. and as it does so, we not only see the wind strengthening, but we see much colder airflooding in. we lose that mild air that came from the atlantic, and it's replaced by pretty cold arctic air for thursday and friday. so here's your week. we start off feeling pretty spring—like — a lot of fine weather and some sunshine. by the end of the week, though, it could start to feel quite chilly, potentially with rather raw northeasterly wind. this is bbc news — i'm sally bundock with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. the british prime minister chairs a taskforce on protecting women — after concerns about vigil footage showing police officers detaining women. thousands of women stage rallies, across australia to protest against gender discrimination and violence. activists in myanmar say security forces have killed nearly 40 protesters in one of the bloodiest 24 hours since last month's military coup. in italy — non—essential businesses, shops and schools lockdown again — in a bid to contain the latest wave of covid—19. and beyonce becomes the most—awarded female artist in the history of the grammys —

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