Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20240713 : comparemela.com

Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20240713

Hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk. Im shaun ley. Sometimes a tv drama does more than entertain, it brings alive to an audience a world theyve failed to see. For many, in the United States and beyond, the wire, which methodically dissected americas war with drugs, was an eye opener. Playing detective bunk moreland brought Wendell Pierce international attention. Now hes on stage in london as willy loman, the protagonist in arthur millers play, death of a salesman. Wendell pierce describes the part hes playing as the american hamlet Wendell Pierce welcome to hardtalk, thank you very much for coming into the studio. Thank you for having me, shaun. Lets begin, if we may, 1a years ago, hurricane katrina, you were visiting your parents when the evacuation was mandated. It was your family home, the city you had grown up in, the city where all your friends were from, and where your family still live. How vivid now are the pictures in your mind, the memories of what you saw when you returned to what had been your home . Those images in my mind are indelible. They will always mark a distinct period in my life. For all of our lives, really. There is always pre katrina and post katrina new orleans. It will be the defining moment in new orleanss history, the recent history. You know, my father was 80, my mother was in her late 70s. In their golden years. And to see everything that you have built to be destroyed at that time of your life id lost my older brother, years before and those are just two of the darkest days for my parents. And i vowed then to make sure to get them back into their home before their dying day so that they could actually have some sort of sense of redemption and recollection of what they had built their lives around. Redemption is a powerful word and it is one that you return to, a concept that you return to a lot in what you have written and spoken about the times then and since. In your book, the wind in the reeds, you describe the impact of the levees failing and the destruction unleashed as water pounded the city. Hundreds of people drowned as the 20 foot wall of water flattened everything in its path. It was biblical. In a single morning a historic African American neighbourhood of 14,000 souls, among the citys poorest, ceased to exist. Yes, and that was the lower ninth ward where one of the bridges were. And that neighbourhood is historic in the sense that in the most violent, segregated times of louisiana and new orleans, it was the neighbourhood through which all African Americans who were coming to the city, the way people come from the hinterlands to london, people came from all over louisiana, when theyd come to new orleans, it was through the lower ninth ward. It was home ownership, contrary to the belief that poor people dont own their homes, it was land owned for generations in a family where anyone who had taken that track to go to new orleans, would go through, and to see that neighbourhood affected that way was devastating. It also has the legacy of knowing, in 1927 in that area, that they did blow the levees to protect the city, you know, a little further out but it was destroyed then. Therefore, after katrina people, a lot of people were suspicious about why that neighbourhood was so heavily damaged. I believe it was a complete failure of the levee system, so around the city, that destroyed the city, in total, and not a malicious act, but theres still to this day a lot of people who feel as though it was a malicious act. Particularly because when some people said lets do not rebuild, lets just leave it as it is. Yeah, absolutely and we still have to fight that today. There were people who theres been no effort on the part of City Government or State Government to actually rebuild the lower ninth ward, but there has been plans to build a cruise ship terminal down there so, if you kind of let it linger, once that cruise ship terminal comes on board, then all of a sudden that property is very, very valuable and so you see those efforts that are made by City Planners that are not in the best interest of people who do not have the social, political and economic power that they should. There is a bigger point, isnt there, about the status of African Americans to this day in their country and the sense for some people of whether or not the United States is their home and is their nation. You come from a very patriotic family, you are very proud of your fathers war service, your father was very proud of his war service and proud of his love for his country and his flag. And yet, when the biggest crisis hit new orleans, it was as if the country did not answer the call. Right and what happens is we do not believe our lying eyes. And what happened was, katrina lifted that veil and showed people that there is a disparity and two americas for those who are white and those who are black, for those who are poor and those who are rich. Class and race are always intertwined and even now, when you see videos of unarmed black men being, you know, killed by Police Officers overreacting, because they have a pre judgement in their head about the black man being a criminal, even with those pieces of evidence, people still want to dispel this idea that there is two americans. And the lesson that they have to learn which is, until we reconcile that, we are cannibalising ourselves. You are destroying the very thing that makes america great, which is its people. And African American people the reason my family is patriotic is because we realise that the African American community built america. First enslaved and then afterwards. I mean, if there is one group of people that should not believe in the viability of constitution and liberty and justice for all, is a people that have been denied it for generation after generation after generation, but we still believe in that idea of equality, so much so that we are willing to continually, vigila ntly fight for those constitutional ideas. I wanted to ask you about life in new orleans after katrina, because one of the motivations that you had was seeing the absence of help, the absence of an outside force. Reagan satirised it as, im from the government and im here to help to him that was a bad thing, but that was what people needed at that stage and it wasnt there, despite the fact that it was promised. That immediate week. And in terms of what you then drew from that was a belief in self help which you have maintained to this day. In what ways . First of all, it was not born out of katrina, it was something that has always been a part of the African American culture and experience. That is what the whole Civil Rights Movement was about, it was exercising your right of Self Determination, going all the way back to our entire experience in america, starting in 1690. It is those who do not have our best interests at heart that will tell you that we are always self reliant on others, always self reliant on government, and dependent, in a way that is not true at all. If you just look at the sense of improvisation, which i believe is just a unique contribution to the human diaspora from the African American culture, of being malleable, changeable and being able to have a sense of individualism in the midst of constriction. You see it in the improvisational nature of jazz, you see it in the improvisational nature of our political movements, like the Civil Rights Movement and all. I mean, ifeel as though we have to do that. And you see it in a bad way when it comes to the Economic System because what happens is, what we depicted on the wire, was an underground economy. Which is, if you do not have access to the mainstream economy, you will create an underground economy to try to survive and people will do that. That is the hard part of human nature. That is what happened with the numbers. You know, people ran numbers back in the day and the government all of a sudden said, mmm, i kind of like that underground economy, lets bring it above board and we will call it the lottery. And tax it. And well be able to tax it. I think whats happening now with the legalisation of marijuana around the world cannabis as we should probably now say. Right . To give it a posher sense. But it is a part of exercising your right to Self Determination that i realised in the face of government failure, was we are going to have to call on the best part of ourselves to do that and that is when i organise my neighbourhood to kind of do our own redevelopment. It was a not for profit, which has built houses. We have built about a0 houses. And we just sold it to a group that is now continuing that reconstruction. Starting a supermarket to provide food. I saw a need for a commercial district and we saw a need in food deserts, which is areas that were designated as not having access to a decent grocery store. I found out quickly, as any actor will, that my business acumen, there are ups and downs. So the store lasted about 1. 5 years, the grocery store. We still have the smaller convenience store, yes. Did eight years of barack obama as president move the dial much, do you think, in terms of attitudes to race . Attitudes to race . That is going to be an ebb a nd flow co nsta ntly. I think one of the greatest misconceptions was this idea that we are post racial because barack obama became president. The ugly part of human nature is the fact that it will always be there, we have to be vigilant and we see in this age, the veil being lifted and show you how racist america still is. Do you mean because President Trump is now in office . Yeah, and we have Stephen Miller and he is literally feeding the media the manifestos of White Supremacists or white nationalists. You have Stephen Bannon going around the world, trying to unify white nationalism. He doesnt realise that the operative word is nationalism so the hungarian white nationalists arent going to get together with the kosovo white nationalists, because they are nationalists and thankfully so. But that ignorance of policy and idea, they rationalise it and it is just hatred of someone else and, until america starts to realise that they are cannibalising themselves and realise that there cant afford to be to americas, we will suffer a dysfunction of self inflicted wounds until we come to that realisation. I raised the question of the impact of obama because i think im right in saying the turn out among African American voters fell between 2012 and 2016, in his first election and his re election, by Something Like seven Percentage Points and i wonder if. Because we make the mistake of taking those voters for granted. Right. In the democratic primary debate, Kamala Harris mentioned it herself. Black women in the recent election of a democratic senator in alabama, the move i think stacey adams would have been governor, in georgia a red state, a black woman wouldve been in there, if it was not for voter suppression, and in florida also, we almost had a governor. Black women are a major constituency in the Democratic Party that is being taken for granted. I mean, just the way that she is treated in the debate as if she is only asked questions about race, shes only asked questions. That is the unconscious bias. That is the unconscious bias and thats what happens on the democratic side, and on the republican side, they know theyjust need to peel away a certain amount of the black vote which will automatically cause turnout to go down, and suppress votes in different areas. I think 6 of African Americans voted for donald trump, last time. I wonder if some of that is kind of legitimate, from your point of view as a democrats supporter and youre backing Kamala Harris, i understand, is a legitimate frustration with the pace of change under democrat president s over the last quarter century . No, thats. Some of it may be, um, what happens is. I actually met a young man, African American in new orleans who voted for trump. That is when i knew he was going to win. I actually met him on halloween night, october 30th, 2016. So a week or so before polling. Yeah, and he said, im voting for him. And he was a contractor and hes like, man, im just looking for another way. He is looking for another way out. Ive tried this way and i want to try another way. Usually, for black americans, it comes out of economics. Theyre looking for some sort of way where we can stop the economic suppression, or the red line that keeps us out, with the lease landed to, were red lined all the time, and a lot of time, they carry the carrot on the stick for a lot of american politicians, if you vote for me, you might become a member of the Rich Guy Club and that works, especially on the largest voting bloc that they have, is the poor white folks. If you can have a right wing populist win the presidency, a man who not many months before people had written off, why cant you have a democrat populist win the presidency . Why not have a radical left wing voice . I think thats possible. Because that might energise. I think thats possible. Youve seen that reflected in the primary right now, with some of the completely left, a lot more radical. Bernie sanders. Sanders, warren, the voice of alexandria. I prefer to say aoc, because i always butcher her name, ms cortez, congresswoman cortez. They have given voice and platform to that. Someone said in the press last election, win some elections. You have the voice, you have the populace, you have to move the needle by actually getting the groundwork of getting people into the polls. Because four years ago, you were backing Hillary Clinton, rather than Bernie Sanders. Yeah. And now, looking where you sit now, does Bernie Sanders look quite as unelectable as he looked four years ago . For me, i mean, Hillary Clinton i was supporting Hillary Clinton because i felt as though her cv was one of the greatest that could ever have been presented by any president ial candidate. But she didnt connect. Ifeel that she. There was death by 1,000 cuts, you know . There was death by 1,000 cuts. You know, weve litigated that all these three years. Everyone comes to the table and says it was this, it was that, and i say all of the above. And joe biden could he win the general election, if he were a candidate . I think any democrat and every democrat could win. You think trump is beatable . I absolutely think trump is beatable. And the thing we have to do is get away from the partisanship and speak to his supporters. We have millions of people that support donald trump against their own best interests, and you have to point that out. You are playing, as i said at the start of the programme, willy loman in death of a salesman at the moment. You have described the part as the american hamlet. Yes, it is. Thats why i sit before you completely fatigued, physically, emotionally, psychologically. It is a challenge, the greatest challenge i have ever had in my life and notjust in my career, in my life. I seem to be unable to find a way, every evening, to climb mount everest. And thats before the lights go up. Im looking up at this peak saying, i have to summit by the end of the evening. And when i have guests come back, theyre always surprised by how festive i am, and happy. Like, you just did willy loman. Im like, man, ijust climbed mount everest. And usually im filled with energy, and im up all night, and then spend the entire day preparing for it. Hes a character whose dreams are shattered by his experience. Yes. Who kind of faces the daily grind, and the daily grind ultimately wins, in the most terrible way possible for him and for his family. Its not a hopeful play. Its a cautionary tale, you know, because the hope is in the fact that you see all the mistakes he makes. If he would only see. If he would only listen to his son, if he would only listen to his wife, if he would only see what was ahead, if he only realised that his best days were ahead of him and not behind him, and if he only realised that all that hed put his faith into was a false dream, and the real dream, the real american dream, was the family and the love that he had around him, he would not, you know, fall victim to his hubris. And hes investigating. During the play, im investigating just a deep self reflection on, are my best days behind me . What are my inadequacies . Where have i failed . Where have i put my false hope . And its a come to jesus moment, as we call it, for me and for him. And what it is is, and the broader message is, a condemnation of capitalism and democracy, and how it can destroy the individual, if we allow the larger idea to be bastardised and to become, instead of capitalism being something that can find a common good, just become about greed. Democracy is not equal for all. If every man and woman dont have access to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, then the whole idea of democracy fails. We know everyone, by the nature of our humanity and existence, everyone will not be successful, but have an idea of how we can lend a helping hand to our fellow man. But its a condemnation of all of the bad parts of democracy and capitalism, and its a cautionary tale. Are you hopeful or pessimistic about the prospects of reuniting americans . Lets leave the kind of politics aside, butjust the kind of common values that can bring americans together. If. Yes, because what happens is there is always an epiphany for people when they start to realise how much we have in common, and it happens for different people at different times. And i think, if we take the time to go into each others communities, if we take the time to actually reach out to someone who disagrees with you, then thats thats

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