The time has just gone half past fourin the time has just gone half past four in the welcome to hardtalk, south africas mandala devotion struggle against white rule has a special place in african house but continent wide respect and admiration is dwindling in south africa and south africa has witnessed a violent attack on african migrants. My guest is south africas ministerfor african migrants. My guest is south africas minister for International Relations, Naledi Pandor, she is a longtime servant of the anc but is the anc failing to serve the south African People . Minister Naledi Pandor in cape town, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much and good afternoon. Minister, your country, south africa today looks desperately ill at ease with itself. Would you agree . No, i dont think so. I dont think ill at ease, i think south africa is confronted by many very difficult and challenging problems. But given its history, im not surprised that it is confronted by these problems. So i wouldnt characterise us in the way that you have but i certainly admit that we are facing very deep and complex challenges, that we have defined solutions for. And complex challenges, that we have defined solutions forlj and complex challenges, that we have defined solutions for. I use the phrase ill at ease with itself because i think i and many people around the world find it quite hard to fathom how the country, the rainbow nation whose struggle we saw just a generation ago for freedom, how it can now include so many people who weve seen on our televisions joining people who weve seen on our televisionsjoining protests, chanting, directing with spears and saying foreigners must go back to where they came from. Can you explain this feeling, this anger, this violence to me . Well, its difficult to explain, however, i do think that there are South Africans, particularly among those who do not have jobs very poor who feel an antipathy to all the large number of migrants from other african countries that we have in south africa. We do have i think a very Poor Administration of immigration, we have significant numbers of illegal migrants, and the country, many take up positions in the Service Industry at very low wages, are not unionised and so antipathy has developed over several years. Would you not accept their senior officials in government the ruling anc who have fanned the flames of this xenophobia . Im not aware of senior government officials fanning the flames. I do think there are leaders who have made remarks that are regarded as unfortunate, but im not sure that one would say they are fanning the flames. There are Community Members who have been the ones behind much of the marshalling of the anger, there is a response from the community which eight think is unwarranted, and cannot be supported. But saying that the community, and people physically poor people, are responsible for all of this without accepting the responsibility of senior officials, seems to be ignoring facts if you have only for example, the premier, said just a few months ago, i think some specific crimes are committed by specific nationalities. Drugs, for example. There are specific nationalities involved, Violent Crimes and murders, we must ask the question, he said, how do we have so many drug dens are operated by nigerians . Isnt that fanning the flames . Well, hes posing a genuine question. Which our Police Service should answer. And providers evidence on. There have been many arrests of nationals from Different Countries across the world, notjust nigerians. I think what we need to do is ensure that as south africas government, would you address cup to track crime, that criminals are arrested, that person is to have criminal records should not be allowed into the country and thus we must improve our Immigration Administration and ensure at entry we actually know whos coming in, that we are very good dishrag we have very good links to other countries immigration assistance so that we dont find ourselves having persons into the country who come into commita persons into the country who come into commit a crime. This is something that is a responsibility of our border services, for our police and thus broadly full government. You make a salad your own government is unable to control to importers. Certainly porters, management has been very challenging problem, at the inception of democracy and 94, south africa opened up for the first time and you had in the countries particularly in the south suffrage and and some in west africa and asia, a move to south africa for Economic Opportunities so you had a large number of economic migrants. A very liberal refugee law had been adopted by south africas parliament. And so many of the economic migrants used asylu m many of the economic migrants used asylum status as the rationale for seeking refuge and residence. This isnt a new problem, we are mindful that we saw a surgeons are very big and anti foreign violence in south africa in 2008, 2015 as well. Human rights watch, inside south africa has said that your government has consistently over that period failed to implement measures to prevent it happening again. The director of human rights millie condemned xenophobic violence isnt enough. The police should much more thoroughly invest investigate, arrest, and bring tojustice thoroughly invest investigate, arrest, and bring to justice those responsible. That is a refund fairly, isnt it . Absolutely and i would agree with Human Rights Watch on that. We have had arrests of 794 people on this recent booting and the tax on persons. We also have found that of the injuries, the majority are South African. This is why we are actually asking ourselves questions as to, is this a criminal robbery, or is it an anti foreigner sentiment by South Africans . I think there is an antipathy, we cant deny that. He talked defined of matson south africa, and your your few days ago, to explain in a sense your feelings about what had happened. He talked about feeling embarrassment and shame. And you said this isnt so and shame. And you said this isnt so much xenophobia as acrophobia. That fascinated me, what you mean by that . Not one single european person, asian, or other group has been attacked. It has been directed at African People. From south africa, as well as from other african countries. Remember ten people died, it was South African, two were zimbabwean. But acrophobia, you are suggesting there is something about the anger that suffer dish rack South Africans are building towards foreigners which are specific and directed at fellow africans. And i wonder, why that is particularly in the light of south africas history . Well, it essentially what happened was, with the advent of migrants from other african countries, intended to be people who are poor and unskilled. Just as many, many millions of black South Africans are. And so, this Migrant Community displaced South Africans from what they thought would be newjob opportunities for them. Hence this rise in the sentiment of anger. What we should do and are doing is provide education and skills to all people in south africa so they can look for new opportunities and compete or see themselves as in competition. With other groups that come to our country. You are the International Relations minister, how are you going to repair relationships with other african countries which right 110w other african countries which right now appear shot to pieces . Youve got the nigerian foreign minister how district describing how he was sick saw, you had to because your High Commission in nigeria, and then through hundreds of nigerians back to their own country for fear of their lives, in south africa, you have a zambian s who refused to play football again south africa, youve had other african nations expressed their deep described with what is happening in the country, a World Economic forum in cape town, supposed to be about cooperation which was ruined, by the scenes we saw. How are you going to repair all this damage . The contractual relations and engagement with nigeria and other countries has continued throughout this very sorry set of events. We have been speaking, the Nigerian Government in short that were our Mission Staff we re short that were our Mission Staff were threatened, there was protection. We had a nigerian dish nigerians even, it is 159, we understand this another few hundred that may leave tonight, but that over 600,000 who live in a country, have chosen to remain in south africa. So this notion that there is a huge exodus is not proven by reality and i continue to talk to all my colleagues, the foreign ministers, our president speaks to the president s of the various countries on the continent, we are putting every effort to ensure that we do not have a repetition, the president has gone out, addressing of the communities where we had this eruption of violence, its often tired south africa, it was part of it. And fun township. So we also, i would query with the characterisation. Feel free to quarrel but i would put it to you that there is no way that you, nor your president can guarantee the future safety of foreign migrant african migrants in the country. The violence now country is systemic, it is endemic, theres no way you can guarantee their safety. We will make every attempt to improve the condition we believe, what we should do is draw communities together, much more than government may have done up to now, we are working with community organisations, we are working with religious leaders, religious organisations, so that all of us are South Africans and known and South Africans Work Together to create improvement dish rack improved conditions. We are very active out there, seeking to ensure we dont have a repetition of them but everyone the conversation and i ta ke but everyone the conversation and i take a bond, one has to be realistic about the numbers of people involved in the violence against african migrants but one also has to be realistic about the wider picture of violence in south africa. Realistic about the wider picture of violence in south africalj realistic about the wider picture of violence in south africa. I think lasted 21,000 murders, you have of major countries the highest murder rate in the world. You have terrible problems with criminal violence and also gender based violence. And your government appears completely unable to get a grip on the situation. Certainly, stephen, i cannot deny that there are those problems and that there are those problems and that gender based violence is one of the most serious challenges that we confront. Given what women have been saying all over the world, we are not alone. While the problem is immense in our country, there is a whole set of sociological problems that we must address, matters of getting men to change their attitudes towards women, building families that do not have violent within them, getting rid of the history and experience of an extremely violated population in our country, and that includes the discrimination we have had over history against women, in particular, black women and specifically working class and rural based black women. These are problems that do confront south africa and i will not by any means deny that all of the crime that we are confronted by, the lack of economic opportunity, the fact that we do not control the large arms of the economy, and the work that we must do as the African National congress to overcome many, many centuries of discrimination and oppression. These are matters that face us and we will continue to address them, as the government of south africa and as the African National congress. I appreciate your frankness with me so lets continue to be so. This profound problem of gender based problem and the situation continues to get worse. Sexual assault increased by 9. 6 last year, rapes up by 3. 5 . What are you, as one of the most senior women in the South African government today, what do you believe your government should and must be doing to address this real time crisis . Must be doing to address this realtime crisis . Well, there are people who have been calling for a tightening up of the law. There are women who are saying that men were found guilty of rape, they should be castrated. There are persons in our country arguing about introducing the death penalty, reintroducing the death penalty. So there are many, Many Solutions being put forward. What we believe should be done is certainly stiffer sentences, improved attention by the Police Service to complaints by women. We believe women should speak out. We believe women should speak out. We believe that women should Work Together, we should support womens organisations, we should ensure that they have appropriate legal representation and we must change the mentality of men who have the attitude that women are their property. Much of the murder you speak of occurs in social settings, alcohol and Drugs Associated with that. The famine side we see occurs in the homes. The stash killing of women. We will start with our homes, we will ensure we tighten the law. Cani we will ensure we tighten the law. Can i clearup we will ensure we tighten the law. Can i clear up one thing, minister, you said castration is being considered by some. Are you telling me that you, sitting anything m, you think that castration is a realistic solution to the gender based violence in your country . certainly do not. It is actually a total offence to our constitution. I am indicating to you the level of feeling and the anger among women in oui feeling and the anger among women in our country. I understand. Is it time, given we are talking about 25 yea rs, time, given we are talking about 25 years, a generation that the African National congress has been in power in south africa, is the time to conclude that the anc, while it delivered liberation, has failed the people of south africa in terms of governance and a transformation of your country in the years since . Well, i would argue certainly we have not failed. There are areas in which post apartheid south africa has done amazingly well. There are areas where we have had failings. Anybody who would imagine that you have had a country with colonialism and racism for centuries and then the awful apartheid will become that in 25 years is actually a dreamer. look at the reality of south africa today, i look at the daily output in your media, press, on line reporting et cetera, while we talk about the profound crisis facing a country, whether it be the violence against foreign nationals, whether it be the criminality and a gender based violence and the poverty and unemployment you have reference, while all of that is a daily reality, in the media there is a co nsta nt strea m of reality, in the media there is a constant stream of stories about new allegations of corruption inside senior levels of government. We have mrzuma senior levels of government. We have mr zuma who faces his charges,. We have allegations against president Cyril Ramaphosa, although he denies them all. We have accusations that different ministers whether in the Zuma Cyril Ramaphosa or, it seems you are wrestling over patronage while your country is in the most profound crisis. As you know, it is you, the media person, who shaves the narrative and you choose which pa rt the narrative and you choose which part of the aspects of our society you will feature. You have not chosen research and innovation in south africa, you have not chosen the increase in the number of phd ts, the increase in the number of phd s, you have not chosen the fact that women are a majority in Higher Education, you have not chosen black access to Higher Education and schooling for young people. It depends on the narrative that the media selects. You selected that particular set of titles in order to present the most negative picture. That is your choice. I might choose another set stop it depends on what the media and yourself decide to highlight about south africa. With respect, it is not me who put former president zuma into a corner, it is the South African legal system, it is not me now investigating Cyril Ramaphosa for alleged illegalities in donations. Of course, allegations he denies. It is your own Public Protector in south africa. Your system, and nobody disputes this, has endemic corruption within it and patronage and corruption are things that have dogged the anc for the last two decades. I put it to you that the anc has become rotten. Well, i would disagree with you. I think the anc has been the one led by Cyril Ramaphosa that has revealed the levels of corruptions and actually taken action. I would disagree with you. I repeat, the narrative that you choose is the one that you depict because there are many, that you depict because there are any that you depict because there are many, many parts to south africa that you and other media never referred to. On this question of the politics of your country today, you have to take a view, there are some who say that jacob zumas allies in and around gove