In the next half an hour ill be with stephen sackur. Speaking to an indutrial relations welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. Brexit is stress testing britains political and constitutional conventions to the very limit. With Prime Minister borisjohnson apparently intent on ignoring the will of parliament and exiting the eu at the end of october, the eye of the brexit storm is fast approaching. My guest is mp heidi allen, who quit the conservative party in early 2019 and co founded a new pro remain centrist party, but that bid to break the political mould failed. What does her experience tell us about the clarity and coherence of brexits opponents . Heidi allen, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. You quit the conservative party seven months ago. You clearly wanted to change the dynamic of the Brexit Debate in the united kingdom. Seven months on, are you ready to say you failed . To be honest, i mean, brexit was the catalyst that drew us together, those of us thatjumped at the same time from both labour and conservative, but i think we all had slightly Different Reasons as well. For me, it was just i couldnt tolerate any more being associated with the conservative brand. I had deep concerns about the welfare state and the way the government were rolling out of the new benefits system. So for me it was more about the way the party changed and what i could represent, but youre right, brexit was part of it. It seemed to be, because you, in essence, said then, which is what quite a lot of tories have said since, which is you feared party was beginning to look like the brexit party. Absolutely. Pushed all the way to the right. It looks like we were trendsetters in hindsight. I go back to that point about what changed as a result of what you did, because what we have now is a Prime Minister in place since you left the party, borisjohnson, who is committed come what may to brexit on october the 31st, and said he would rather die in a ditch than ask the eu for a deadline extension. So, if anything, the trends we saw seven months ago are even more so today . Absolutely, which shows that those of us who made the decision at the time were absolutely right. I suppose what you could say has changed is more colleagues now in the conservative party have recognised the same. Theyve been unable to stick by the brand, and they too voted against the government knowing full well that that would mean theyd have the whip removed. So theres a more powerful base now that i think can potentially influence what happens next. Yes. Now, talk to me about how you see the conservative party today. Obviously no longer your party. You still have many friends in it. I dare say some of those friends were among the 21 that were fired. Were you hoping that they would make common cause with you declare themselves to be independent mps in the way that you have . Because thats not what theyve actually done. At the time, i didnt expect any of the to jump. Did i over time recognise we would end most likely with borisjohnson and most likely looking at no deal . Did i think there would be a significant number who say, i cant support this any more . Yes. A few of them have different views. Some will stand down and wont stand in a general election again, a good number. Others are talking about standing as an independent conservative. Well, you cant have independent conservative on the ballot paper, and ive been talking to them about that. But it seems to me they will either have to choose to join another party, stand as an independent and definitely risk their seats. This is career limiting for all of us. Its interesting to me youve been talking to them. Give us a sense of the conversations youve been having an who with, in fact. Over the summer ive been building an organisation called unite to remain during the european elections. Its one of the reasons the change uk party failed. It became clear those in this country, those worried about brexit, particularly a no deal brexit, were eagerfor remain parties and remain mps to work together, putting the Country First rather than parties. There wasnt time in the european elections because it came upon us so quickly. But we do have time to plan for a general election, a bit more time than we did for the euros. So ive been working with the remain parties in england and wales, principally the lib dems, the greens, plaid cymru and the independents to come up with that pact, so when the general election comes, in as many seats as possible, like in brecon in the by election we saw recently, there will be one remain candidate standing. Ive been talking to those tory mps thinking, you know, perhaps they would have to resign the whip, what with their plans be and seeing if somehow we could offer them some assistance in that. You talk of a general election, but isnt the truth you could have had a general election in mid october, because Boris Johnson clearly wanted a snap election. He could only get it with the support of opposition mps, including yourself. You denied it to him, and it seems you denied it to him because you look at the opinion polls, and you see that the conservative party has a substantial, healthy lead in the polls right now. That is the conservative party, led by Boris Johnson, which is determined to get a do or die brexit. And what anybody who knows Dominic Cummings will tell you, he is a data man. He will say to borisjohnson, right, the polling, the focus groups im doing, push the button now. I can tell you you can win a general election now. What the opposition parties did, principally labour, it was Jeremy Corbyn who came round to the idea, they realised if we had allowed borisjohnson to have his general election, he wouldve controlled the timetable of it, which means he still would have been able to influence us leaving with no deal. We are not prepared to do that. Were going to push him to the wire and resist the call for a general election until he goes to the eu council on the 17th of october. Well, im tempted to say, how cynical of you . Because in the end, britain is politically deadlocked. There is no way the politicians at westminster can sort out this brexit mess, it seems. Theres no majority for anything. Borisjohnson, the executive, wants to take britain out of october the 31st. Surely you should have acceded to his request to let the people decide in the form of a general election in mid october before that october the 31st deadline . But he was game playing, because he couldve chosen a date after october the 31st. But he wanted to give the people a chance to voice their opinion before. But do you know, because i certainly dont, we dont know what date he wouldve chosen. Hes not obliged to give us the election date before or after october the 31st. Nobody knew. What Parliament Needs to do, and theres growing appetite for this now, and i suspect we would achieve it if we tried again. Youre right, we are in deadlock, therefore it has to go back to the british people. It needs that confirmatory vote, a second referendum, call it what you will. I think thats the only thing that can break the deadlock. Well go back to your view on a the second referendum in a minute, but lets focus, because its important if were trying to understand what is happening to british politics today. It is important to dig into the reasons why your decision to create a new movement that changed its name from the independent group to then change uk. Why did it fail, and fail in a rather humiliating way, within a couple of months of its creation . I think theres a number of reasons. I dont think brexit is necessarily at the heart of it. I think what we recognised when we got into. The opinions really changed. When we first launched, we were riding high in the polls and were the best thing since sliced bread. The local elections came and none of us factored in, to be absolutely truthful, and the polls shifted measurably. We werent standing in the locals. The lib dems did incredibly well and then they were riding high suddenly, and it was clear we wont the exciting new ids on the block anymore and in the european elections, people were saying, weve got to vote for who was more likely to win, and that was the lib dems. I wonder if in retrospect you would acknowledge that the way british politics worked, you were hopelessly naive to think you could create a new remain centrist party with momentum, because you said this, you said on your departure from the tories, you said, party tribalism is anathema to me and shouldnt we be working on the big issues in the countrys best interest . Shouldnt we be searching for the right answers blind to any colour. But i still feel exactly the same way. That is naive, thats not how british politics works. I dont care. Thats the best way, and we need to be pushing and pushing for that. Its not the best way if you crash and burn within three months. How ironic that the reason half of us left was because thats how we felt that our young party, young as it was, wasnt prepared to put the Country First when we werent the favourite kids in town. Half of us said, you know what, we need to be offering to our supporters. Tactically, though, go for the greens or lib dems. Its not about us. And half the group unfortunately still felt that way. Thats interesting. You were only 11 at the beginning and half of you, as you put it, refused to think, sort of, strategically and long term. So you would say people like anna soubry, a fellow tory who quit, like you did, joined the independent group and then called your leadership of the Group Bizarre because you basically said, you know what, if the lib dems have a chance of winning a particular seat then back the lib dems. Anna soubry saw that as a completely bizarre way to found a new party. But were never going to break the system if we behave in tribal ways. Thats the great irony, isnt it . The way the brexit thing will be fixed, finally movement in the house of commons, is parties are learning to work together. This is bigger than any single party, and we have have to put that to one side. A number of colleagues of yours, im thinking, for example, of chuka umunna and luciana berger, both influential labour mps who joined the independent group, theyve now continued their politicaljourney byjoining the liberal democrats. Theres a lot of talk that you too are going tojoin the liberal democrats. Are you . If i had a pound for everybody whod asked me that, i would be very wealthy indeed. Im not going to give you a pound, i want a straight answer. The answer is the unite to remain initiative, as i said already, is me helping to broker a deal between the remain parties. To do that effectively, to make a difference and we dont split the remain vote in as many seats as possible, that has to be brokered by an independent. Thats why ive stayed as an independent, and that puts me at risk in my career if a general election comes soon, but im not prepared to consider jumping into any other party until that piece of work is done, because that is the big prize returning a significant number of remain mps to the house of commons that can shift our countrys direction. That to me is more important than my own careerm, so im determined to stay as an independent to do that piece of work. Well, theres several interesting things there. Are you going to run in your current constituency, which, of course, you won as a conservative candidate, telling the people of south cambridgeshire you are committed to brexit. You havent had a by election so you dont have a mandate for your new position as an independent mp, but are you going to back to your constituents and asked for their support again . Well, in terms of my constituents. My constituency voted overwhelmingly to remain. The reason i didnt have a by election, you know, it is truth people vote for the person not the party, but regardless of that. Well, says who . That is constitutionally accepted. It is the person, within our law, you are voting for, not the party. That may be a technical response, but the people of south cambridgeshire, many will think, well, i voted for a tory and now i have an mp who doesnt define herself as a tory as she did before, but says shes something else. I need the chance to re elect her or not. Youre right, it is the views of my constituents which are the most important, and ive had over 6,500 e mails now from constituents, conversations in the street and supermarkets and pubs saying i did the right thing and at the last count 6,500 e mails from people telling me im unhappy. My seat is not a right wing conservative seat. Its full of science, technology and academics, and they recognise what ive done is in the interests of the country, and it seems to me, on evidence, my constituents are very happy. This idea of unite to remain and building a strategic, very clever alliance of all the pro remain forces to maximise the number of successful victories you can get in the next election, that might require you to stand down in favour of the lib dems . Absolutely it might. My seat in south cambridgeshire, a remain seat in a conservative lib dem target, if you like. That is one of the jigsaw pieces in the unite to remain jigsaw, and every seat requires analysis and polling to see who is most likely to win there. And youre absolutely right, that could be the conclusion. Isnt the problem for the remain side of this three years. Well, its longer than three years, this protracted argument in britain, leave or remain, isnt the fundamental problem that the leave side has a very clear, understandable position that is britain must leave the European Union. 17. 4 Million People, 52 of the vote in the referendum, voted for that, a clear majority, and therefore britain must leave. The remain message is much, much more complicated. I dont think thats true at all, that the leave message, thats the great worry with all of this did people vote for no deal . Did they vote to lose trade ties . They voted to leave. It was a simple question before them do you want to stay in the European Union or do you want to leave it . And they voted to leave. And it was put to them, therell be a deal. It would be the easiest deal in the history of all dealmaking. The Common Market and itll be going back to the old days. With respect, none of that was on the ballot paper. It was binary. Now, you can argue whether binaries are a good thing, but it was a binary, but it was leave or remain, and the majority voted to leave. And a foolish one you would say in hindsight. You can say that, but the point is, David Cameron put that to the people and he said this is a once in a lifetime chance to settle the argument. You, the people, will settle it, and a clear majority voted to leave and the fundamental problem for remain, whether you be an independent, a lib dem or a labour remainer, the fundamental problem is that you cannot match the simplicity and clarity of the remain message. Well, again, i disagree with that. I think it is very easy, as in all these things, milk and ambrosia, a vision of how wonderful the future can be is always going to be easier to sell than the status quo. But the fact is, people did not vote to leave with no deal, people did not vote overnight for no transition period, for no regulation and medicines or movement of people or tariffs on goods. Nobody voted to make themselves poorer. My responsibility as a member of parliament, my first responsibility it is to the economic wellbeing of my constituents, the security of this country. No deal would be catastrophic, yellowhammer has confirmed that to us. Well, well get to yellowhammer, that is the report which makes predictions. The governments own report. About what might happen to the economy after a no deal brexit, well get to that. But let us just stick to this notion. Youve just said, my First Priority is the economic interests in my constituents. Surely your First Priority ought to be the health of british democracy. I have to say, if we allow no deal, if we allow borisjohnson his no deal, which is his preference, you know, the reason amber rudd finally resigned and resigned the whip also, notjust her role, was because she said she could see very little effort going into getting a deal at all and the Prime Minister and the government and cabinet were spending all their time looking at no deal. Weve seen how damaging no deal will be to the economy. You havent addressed my question, youve come back to your position that no deal is very dangerous but listen to michael gove and others who say quite clearly, im going to quote gove, but many others, borisjohnson, have said it, if we fail to deliver on the clear verdict backed by 17. 4 Million People who voted to leave the eu, it would be a fatal blow to faith in democracy. Now, you argue for a new politics which isnt about tribalism, isnt about party but about real, reasoned debate. Is there no part of you that can see what michael gove is saying . But new politics has to be honest. New politics has to tell the public what the risks are, and that is the entire reason why there are many of us, and i suspect a majority in the house of commons now, believe that a second referendum is the way out of this, to be honest with people. But heidi allen, you have made that point and i respect. If i may finish. Please just say to me. Do you do you not recognise there is some truth in what michael gove says about failing to deliver on the referendum result, leading to a catastrophic lack of faith in the British Public in the democratic system . Democracy does not live on one day only. Democracy is not owned by the people that voted on one day only. Democracy is alive and well every single day. Weve had more general elections since we had the referendum. Yes, and obviously overwhelmingly the votes went to parties who were committed to delivering brexit. But polling is shifting. Polling is showing, not everywhere in the uk but in a significant number of constituencies, people are changing their mind and they want a say on this. Because i believe democracy does not exist on one date, it is owned by every person who can vote, i believe there is no greater opportunity to show we embrace democracy than by checking with people and saying, this is your country, this is your future, are you happy with this . I just want to continue with the idea of trust. A very influential professor of politics, matthew goodwin, hes studied a lot, hes surveyed a lot, and these are his conclusions. He says, brexit has widened the trust gulf, because for the first time in our national history, a majority of people outsid