Now on bbc news, its hardtalk with stephen sackur. Welcome to hardtalk. Im at stephen sackur. Im stephen sackur. Indonesia has big ambitions to be a 21st century regional superpower. It has the right kind of assets in terms of population, natural resources, and strategic position, but there are clouds on the horizon. Not least in west papua, the vast Territory Incorporated into indonesia after the end of Dutch Colonial rule. For five decades, jakarta has suppressed a papuan Independence Movement. In recent months tensions have flared into violence. My guest is benny wenda, exiled leader of the west papuan Liberation Movement. Can he take onjakarta and win . Benny wenda, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. Last month we saw violent clashes between Indonesian Security personnel and civilians in west papua. There were a number of deaths, some very serious clashes. Now the indonesians say the situation is now calm and order has been restored. You are in Constant Contact with west papua, what do you believe is going on . This situation escalated from jakarta to west papua because of, you know, the Indonesian Police and military and local civilians came to west papua student dormitories in surabaya and accused them of the racist word, monkey, dog, and pig. That spark escalated across indonesia, across west papua. The papuans, if you call us monkey, then go home, we want to ask an independent referendum. Then peacefully start with, peacefully from across west papua, all over west papua, then the indonesian response is killing six people a place called deiyai. That is the start of killing by the Indonesian Military. Its a complicated story, though, isnt it . You have said that the spark that lit the flames of violence was racism directed towards young papuan students studying in an indonesian college. The indonesian Authorities Point to other sparks and they go back of course to last december when, as i understand it, separatist millitants, armed, murdered a group of workers construct a new road in west papua. Constructing a new road in west papua. And those were separatists, presumably allies of your own. This is not new for west papua. Indonesia always creates the violence. One example that back in 2002, the Indonesian Military intelligence, one of the american citizens is killed near the Grasberg Freeport mine and then blamed on west papuan separatists. It exactly the number of dead the event that the pattern is the same. Well, hang on, its important to get down to basics here. There are many allegations that armed militants working as papuan separatists, and you of course are the exiled leader of the main umbrella separatist organisation, they have conducted operations and they are deemed to have been responsible for the murder of those construction workers last december. Yes or no . That until today. We still as soon as that happened i already make a statement. This is unacceptable and this is the propaganda done by indonesia, because. But its no good just describing it as propaganda. Do you accept that some papuan separatists are not only armed but are using those arms to kill other indonesians, particular those, for example, working for example, particular those working, for example, on the big Construction Projects inside papua . Ive already stated that those people, at a human level, i condemn what happened. But this is the history of what is happening now. We always under my leadership we always maintain peacefully, come out on the street, demonstrating, end of the violence, end of colonialism. Whats happening now, indonesia came illegally to our country, illegally occupied. Since then indonesia, 500,000 men, women, children have been killed. Up to now. Indonesia brought the violence. We want to live peacefully. This is important to go through step by step, so let me stop you. Are you claiming, i think youre claiming, halfa million of you fellow west papuans have been killed by the indonesian government, its security forces, since jakarta took responsibility for west papua in the 1960s. Yes. 1963. Where is your evidence for that figure of 500,000 dead . We have a number of evidence coming out. Amnesty international also investigated. Half a million were killed. That is why i also say to the indonesian government, if you claim there is no genocide, there is no genocide then why do they not allow journalists . Journalists have been banned for 50 years. Amnesty international are banned, the International Peace brigade, even the bbc, even abc, all the internationaljournalists are totally banned. Thats why indonesia gets away with impunity. So if you are alleging, and it is only an allegation, and as you say, International Journalists and human rights workers find it very hard to work in west papua, if you are alleging, your word, a genocide, are you also saying that you believe Armed Struggle is entirely legitimate . Is that your position today . We never use the Armed Struggle. We always maintain peacefully. Because you cannot win the asia pacific, west papua as a militarised zone. When we use the Armed Struggle. Indonesia can legitimately send out 10,000 of the military. Thats why under my leadership we come out peacefully. Since 2000, we had a congress, 2000, they came out peacefully and engaged with jakarta to solve the west papua issue through the International Mechanism which is called a referendum. But if i may, the point is you claim to be the unified leader of the Liberation Movement for west papua, but it pattern isnt true. The other long standing separatist organisation, the 0pm, doesnt recognise, it seems to me, your leadership. The 0pm leader, jeffrey bomanak, said recently that his organisation and its armed wing, the tpnpb, reject and deny the claims and political statements made about the merger by you. He doesnt accept your authority. And also it is clear that the tpnpb continue their Armed Struggle. We this isjust a number of people, an individual claim. But we in 50 years we never became united. But this is 50 years. The last five years supported by the vanuatu government, the first time in our history, we became united. We have three politicalfactions. The fact is, mr wenda, youre not united, because one of the key factions that you claim to represent says you do not represent them. They are part of the Liberation Movement. 0pm is the name of the organisation. Every west papuan is 0pm. But now the Political Organisation we are united under the united the united Liberation Movement. By the chair of the united Liberation Movement. Let us talk with deep emotions here. Its important for people to understand where you come from. Obviously you were born in west papua. In actually quite a remote place, believe, but your family suffered a great deal as the Indonesian Military forces moved in. There was a lot of violence. And your family suffered from some of that. You yourself were educated in a school which was largely indonesian. And i know you claim you suffered serial racist incidents at school. You then, as a young man, became an activist against indonesian authority. They accuse you of leading a campaign of arson and violence. They put you on trial. Were you a young millitant committed to violence . I why i have to fight this injustice happening in west papua, because im myself became a witness. I grow up, in the bush, five years, my auntie was raped in front of my eyes, my mother was beaten up in front i could not do anything as a young boy. And then i, at the time i went to school, i studied, and people were talking about discrimination. Ive myself have faced discrimination in this school, even in the campus. So thats why when i graduate. Indonesia educated me to understand about that struggle. They liberated themselves from the Dutch Colonialism. So then they, what they are doing towards west papua is colonialism. Its not liberating west papua. So that is direct colonialism. Thats why they look at west papua differently. And the this discrimination, the racism, i dont want that happening in the next generation. I want to end it. Thats why when i graduate of political science, i came out to lead peacefully on the street, 2000. That answer was very telling in many ways, and indeed moving. But you didnt answer my question. Were you, was young man, and i dare say are you today actually committed to violence because, according to your own version of events, so much violence has been perpetrated against your people that you seem to believe violence has to be part of your solution. I committed, since 2000, when i became a leader of the koteka tribal assembly, i declared the peaceful way is the only weapon we have. Because 1970, 1960, iam not denying, there is an elder in the bush, they defend themselves. Its like a home guard. Someone come to beat you up or kill you or beat your woman or your daughter has been raped in front of you, you cant let that happen. They have to defend. Also rape. So i think in that sene. But that is already, the revolutionary era is already ended. But now we want to democratically transition for west papua. We will get your political proposals injust a moment. But your description that all of the violence is in the past is not shared by the indonesian government. Jakartas co ordinating ministerfor political, legal, and Security Affairs said just the other day that i believe benny wenda took part in the violent conspiracy that indonesians believe they saw last month when so many young people in different towns across west papua attacked the security forces. Are you today conspiring against the Indonesian Security forces . So now my question, who started, the provocationin surabaya . I like simple answers to simple questions. Are you actively conspiring with arms young people in your territory, west papua, today, to attack the Indonesian Security forces . No, i have not advised my people to attack Indonesian Security forces. I maintain as peacefully as possible. Thats why the united Liberation Movement, from the beginning, when i am from zero to maintain peacefully, call a referendum. Indonesia dont like call a referendum because they feel that west papua is part of the territory. But indonesia knows that they illegally occupied our country and that is why the root problem, it is illegal. But can you see where the indonesian authorities would be very suspicious of you . They charge you all those years ago when you are in your late 20s with arson and violence. You escaped before the trial could be completed. But even today, looking at what you say, there is reason to suspect you. For example, heres a statement from you, again, very recently in the wake of this violence. Politically and militarily we are united, the International Community can see without doubt we are ready to take over our country. Indonesia cannot stigmatise us as separatists or criminals anymore, we are a legitimate, unified, military and political state in waiting. If i was an indonesian minister i would regard that as quite simply an invitation to your people to undertake an armed uprising. No, i called my people, because all those years indonesia has stigmatised those people. They are criminal. They are stigmatised. No, we are the legitimate we are ready to engage with the world, engage with indonesia, thats why you cant stigmatise. That era is finished. We want to tell the world we are ready. So, because we are responsible. Militarily, you said. No, militarily we are not engaged. Militarily, politically, we are ready to show we are confident in. We want the world to trust us. You can trust indonesia all those years, but now, no, just us because this is our territory. I am a leader of the Independence Movement for west papua and im ready to engage with the world and welcome any assistance to support our struggle for piece. That is our standing point. The indonesian government sees you as potentially dangerous, anti state, Anti Government actors. They claim some associations with islamic state. Are you aware about . 95 of west papua is christian, we are not enemies with anybody. My against this is that indonesias system opposed to my people. We believe in peace with ordinary people, particularly migrants coming in because we know those people are coming . Looking in because we know those people are coming, looking for a better life. West papua in independence, we are more welcome. You say that you do want engagement with the International Community and indeed with indonesia, the state, itself. Lets talk about your commitment to engagement. The president of indonesia, joko widodo, is a man who has repeatedly visited west papua and talked about the importance he gives to developing west papua. He says we will continue to maintain the honour of all the papuan people. He won 90 of the vote in west papua, he is unlike previous military leaders in indonesia, appearing to care. Why dont you give him an olive branch . Yes, many president s visit west papua from time to time. It never changes. You cannot develop west papua or build a bridge or seven story or bring development. But people you are killing. He was the development for . While the people are being killed, who can enjoy those developments . People in west papua are not asking for development, they are asking a simple question. Hold the referendum, we want peace and harmony in our own land, that is what they are asking. You raise an interesting dilemma there, what is more important to the papuan people . Getting great prosperity and development in your vast territory, or, independence and your own political objectives . Because it seems to me poverty is rife in west papua. Weve seen malnutrition, weve seen disease killed children in a way that is a rare and the rest of the world. You need material development, and that is what the indonesian president is offering you. Isnt that rather important . Indonesia, look, west papua is a very rich country on this planet. My people are because they suffer because Indonesian Military operations take place in west papua. This is 50 years, 58 years, under the indonesian illegal occupation. Sorry to interrupt, but if they are offering to build tra ns territory highways, advanced expense, if they are asking you to open up the resource extraction industries, and they say much of the profit from that will be invested in west papua, are these not objectives you can share . No. Why they build the roads . They are cutting down the trees. West papua has the third second largest rainforest in this planet. They build that road in order to bring the military, cutting down the trees, cutting down our forests and mountain. The forests are sacred, and the mountains are sacred. Now these multinational companies, logging and Mining Companies want to destroy our way of life, our environment. This is why we are saying the people of west papua are not asking for development, they are asking for a referendum on independence. So, to be clear, if you were to get your way and if there were to be a referendum, and you, as the figurehead of the movement for independence were to become the leader of an independent west papua, you are saying to your own people and to the world that you would hold all the economic development. The gold mining, the road development, the mineral extraction, although it would be halted. The people, they may be free, but they might also be very, very poor. Look, we want to settle with what weve got. But what we are asking now, we want to run our own affairs. That is a simple question we are asking the indonesian government. Because we have everything, but we want to share. The west papuan independence is very unique, and as a country we want to create a green state in the world. We dont want to destroy our forests and mountains because west papua is the heart of the planet, heart of the land of the world. Also, this west papua, we want west papuan independence and offer our brothers ancestors across the pacific, who will be disadvantaged by climate change, offer them a place. Because west papua is a great biggest land after greenland. There is no doubt of the natural riches in west papua. You talk about your brothers and sisters in the region, are you very disappointed with the International Lack of support, if were honest, that you in west papua have received for your Independence Campaign . Australia, in particular, has a close relationship with the indonesian government and doesnt seem interested in backing your claims for independence. But, look, australia is a big power in the pacific. One thing that you know, we had a Pacific Islands meeting in tuvalu, we lobbied for 19 years but the first time west papua was adopted, 18 countries. Including new zealand and australia. It is time to change the foreign policy. This is talking about a humanitarian crisis. This is the 21st century. We are fighting colonialism in west papua. Indonesia colonised west papua. 0ppressed my people. 50 20 is down, iam 0ppressed my people. 50 20 is down, i am worried, we dont want to repeat the history and what happened in other parts of the world, north america and Indigenous People around the world as well. I hear your passion, but do you think the world cares or indeed cares enough . I think our world is already finding out. In almost the entire of my life, i have travelled the world, educated the world to understand what is going