You are up to date on the headlines. Now on bbc news, its time for hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. Back in 2015, the nations of the world made a formal commitment to act to keep Global Warming well below two degrees centigrade. So much for fine words global Greenhouse Gas emissions are still rising. The data suggest the planet is warming at an alarming rate. What to do about it . Well, my guest today is roger hallam, co founder of Extinction Rebellion, a movement dedicated to mass resistance and civil disobedience. How far are the climate rebels prepared to go . Roger hallam, welcome to hardtalk. There is and has been for years been no shortage of activist groups committed to fighting for the cause of fighting Climate Change. Why the need now for Extinction Rebellion . Well, i think the reason is really straightforward as millions of people around the world have realised that it comes to the point where something drastic has to happen, and nothing is happening. And that means that we have to start breaking the law in order to make change happen. You say nothing is happening. That seems to defy the truth that we see around us. Not only are there heaps of different activist organisations working to further the ideas behind mitigating Climate Change, but governments around the world, as i mentioned in the introduction, have signed up to the paris agreement. They are committed to doing what it takes. Well, theres a massive lie going on, which is things are happening. But theyre not, and millions of people have realised that the governments have been lying for the last 30 years, and the elites have been lying, and the experts have been lying. And the reason theyve been lying is because theyve said that Carbon Emissions will go down, and theyre going to act to make sure they go down, but they havent. Theyve gone up 60 since 1990, and theyre still going up, as you said. They went up 1. 6 two years ago and 2. 7 last year. So this was the decade when it was all supposed to start happening, wasnt it . But its not, so people are very angry. People are in a rage. People dont want their kids to die. You know, this is. Theres no words to describe how serious it is. But i guess what im getting to is this point. Whats different about you . I mean, weve had, for example, the leader of greenpeace in this studio. Hes talked in very similar terms about the alarming rate of the warming of the planet. Hes talked about the rise in emissions, hes talked about the concentration of c02 in the atmosphere getting worse, all of that stuff. I mean, so on the science, theres no disagreement. But are you saying that groups like greenpeace and many, many others have fundamentally failed in their mission to convince the world that things need to change . Yes. We have fundamentally failed. I mean, ive failed, other activists have failed, campaigners have failed weve all failed. The fact of the matter is were facing massive starvation in the next ten years, social collapse, and the possible extinction of human rights. It couldnt be worse. And that situation has come about over 30 years of failure failure by the elites, failure by the governments, and failure by campaigners. So your message is entirely about failure, its about negativity. It is in a way, i suppose, a howl of rage and despair. Thats right, it is. And you think that is a message that the people of the world and the political leaders of the world are going to respond to . Yes, and the reason why is because, when people go through depression and rage, they come out and decide to do things. And Extinction Rebellion is the most successful Climate Change movement in the uk. 0nly set up a year ago, its got 100,000 people signed up to it. Its mass civil disobedience. Its changed the conversation in this country, and the reason why its done that is because its dedicated to telling the truth. And the truth is were in this beyond terrible situation, and its been brought about by the elites and the governments lying to people and misleading people over 30 years. But arent you lying and misleading people too . Because youre suggesting its possible, for example in the united kingdom, where the group was founded, that we could in the uk move to net zero Carbon Emissions by 2025. And that really isnt possible. Of course its possible. Anything is possible. Its a matter of whether there is the political will. 0k, let me rephrase the question. Its not possible within the framework of our capitalist economy without causing unimaginable damage to peoples lives. Well, the damage is imaginable, and its proportionate, and its necessary, because the alternative is a social collapse. Thats the fundamental realisation people have come to. Theres not a third option here, of carrying on business as usual. See, the problem is, and the reason i began by discussing where you sit within this sort of Climate Change and environmental movement, is that youre an outlier among so many people who agree, like you, that there is now a Climate Emergency. For example, the energy and climate intelligence unit, which sympathises with much of the message that you deliver, does not sympathise at all with some of the objectives and targets you lay out, because they say that, for example, the net zero emissions by 2025 is technically, economically and politically impossible. It has absolutely no chance of being fulfilled. Well, they are wrong. You know, we can do whatever we like in our society. Its a matter of whether were prepared to undertake the costs of that. The fact of the matter is, and this is the main point that Extinction Rebellion is trying to say, its over, right, for civilisation. The reason its over is because of the hard physics. Were not making a political point or an ideological point or, you know, trying to be awkward, or all the rest of it. Were simply saying that science is real. If the science is real, it means were facing social collapse. The reason were facing social collapse is because of mass starvation, and the reason were going to have mass starvation is because of the collapse in our weather systems around the world. Yes, but im talking about the degree to which you say action, the most radicalform of action, has to be completed within the next six years, which is what youre saying. Youre suggesting youre setting a target which would mean people couldnt use Combustion Engine vehicles anymore. They couldnt fly anymore. They couldnt use gas to heat their homes anymore. And i put it to you that suggesting that is possible makes you a fantasist. Its like going to the doctor and the doctor says youve got cancer, and if you carry on as normal, youre definitely going to die, 0k . Or you can try and change, but you might still die. Those are the options for the human race now, if were to believe the science. With respect, i dont think the science is saying that were all going to die within six years. No, no, no, no. What the science is saying is, if theres not fundamental, major change in the structure of the Global Economy in the next ten years, then were heading for catastrophe. And what that means is were going to be heading for mass social collapse and mass starvation. Do you acknowledge that the message youre peddling, and its full of past failure, deep negativity, the most urgent of alarms and emergencies for right now, do you accept that it cant be successful as a sort of Movement Without taking the public with you . The public is starting to get round to the idea that were facing social collapse. But before april, before there were 1,200 arrests in the streets of london, in the biggest civil disobedience protest in british history, the British Public didnt have any opinion on the Climate Emergency. Afterwards, 67 of the British Public believe can agree there is one. You want to bring down the capitalist system as we know it. The capitalist system is going to be brought down by itself. The capitalist system is eating itself. But your point about the. No, let me make this point clear, right . The capitalist system, the global system were in here, is in the process of destroying itself, and it will destroy itself in the next ten years. The reason for that is because its destroying the claimant. The climate is what is necessary to grow food. If you cant grow food, therell be starvation and social collapse. Now, the problem is people in the elites and people in the bbc and people in the governmental sector cannot get their heads around whats actually happening. The fact of the matter is, if you go out and talk to ordinary people in the street, theyre aware of this. And thats why hundreds of thousands of people around the world are starting to take action because theyve lost faith. I understand your perspective on the climate is that the emergency is here, its now, and we have to respond. No, i dont think you have. See, thats the. I want to ask you about the degree to which see yourself as a revolutionary. Is that how you would characterise your ideology . Theres a revolution coming anyway. Its irrelevant. I know what youre trying to do. Youre trying to say theres these radical people. Everything is ok, and theyre trying to change stuff, and if they were not there being annoying, things could carry on. The fact of the matter is, if we dont change things, theyre going to be ten times worse. And those are the two options. Thats why im telling you about the analogy of the doctor. When you go and see a doctor, you dont blame the doctor. You dont accuse the doctor of being revolutionary, right . Because the doctor is simply telling you what the science says, and the science is were going to have social collapse, or were going to try and do do something about it. With respect, science is different from politics. Youre taking science and then youre putting a political interpretation of what it means, how its having an impact. There is no political interpretation here. Let me put to you some words by a former head of the metropolitan Police Counter terror command, who has studied your movement. He says Extinction Rebellion is the breakdown of democracy and the state. He regards you as akin to a dangerous terrorist organisation. Mmm. Well, youre telling me that youre going to take the public with you, when a former police chief is suggesting that you actually are anarchists who want to bring down the state and our democratic system. Do you think the publics ready for that . The public is now aware that the elites are taking them to their death, because thats what the science is saying. The people. You stood in the recent election. The people that are betraying this country and this nation are the people in the elites, like the guy youve just mentioned, because theyre refusing to accept the reality. And thats why therell be mass social disturbances over the next year or two. You stood in the european parliamentary election as an independent with this message. In london, more than 2 million voters. You managed to garner 924, and youre telling me the public is marching alongside you. The 67 of the public know there is a Climate Emergency. If you know theres a Climate Emergency, it means that were facing a situation more serious than weve ever had to deal with in the whole history. Politicians are now talking of climate emergencies. Making the leap from talking of a Climate Emergency to the mass civil disturbances, disruption, the bringing down of the state as we know it, thats something quite different. How far are you prepared to go . Weve seen lets say hundreds, sometimes maybe even 1,000 or 2,000 of your Extinction Rebellion colleagues and activists on the streets of london, gluing themselves to buildings, gluing themselves to roads, disrupting traffic, once even disrupting public transport, which to many seemed a bit odd. But how far are you prepared to take this mass civil disobedience . This 0ctober, thousands of people will come to the streets of london and they will stand on the streets of london. How long, i dont know, because it will be up to them. But you will see mass disturbances. It will be non violent, it will be respectful, and it will be disruptive, and that is the methodology were using. Thats the method were using. You say carefully, you say non violent. In previous comments you have set of your protests, demonstrations, civil disobedience that, quote, some people may die. I wonder what you meant by that. Because, in civil disobedience struggles over the last 150 years, when you challenge the elites, as gandhi says, you know, first they ignore you, then they laugh at you and then they fight you. When they fight you, they tend to kill people, thats historically what happens and im just stating that as a fact, a sociological fact. When Martin Luther king used to do civil rights campaigns in 19six0s, people got killed, and thats part of the process of political change. Youre carefully manipulating this, arent you . You said, people will see in the evening news 10 year olds and grannies getting dragged off by the police. I believe youve made a particular point in Extinction Rebellion of teaching civil disobedience methods to young people, including schoolchildren. You want them on the front lines. Why do you think schoolchildren and grannies are getting involved in putting themselves in harms way to get arrested. Why do you think thats happening . Im asking you why youre encouraging them to put themselves in harms way. Im not encouraging anyone, 0k . What im involved in doing. You are actually encouraging them, encouraging children to. If grannies turn up to a meeting and theyre in tears about whats happening to their grandchildren, its not what im doing that makes them sit down in the road. Its the same with teenagers. Teenagers are shitting themselves about whats happening for the future. Theyve got another 50, 60, 70 years to live on this planet and by that time there could be rain only1 billion people left. That six billion people who have died in starvation or been slaughtered in war. The scale of that is beyond the imagination, isnt it . This is the biggest problem, the elites and the bbc and the conventional media has simply not grasped the enormity of whats happening. Well, never mind the elites, it seems that many people even who were involved in the early days of Extinction Rebellion, like yourself, think you are going far too far. You havent heard what ive said, and this is the fundamental problem. Im listening very carefully. No, i dont think you are, youre listening but not emotionally connecting, and this is the problem. Ive spent a year doing interviews like this with journalists, and journalists are not emotionally connecting with whats happening. Im talking about the slaughter, death and starvation of six billion people this century. Thats what the science predicts, thats the trajectory were on, and that requires absolutely Desperate Measures to stop it. And its going to be painful. Believe me, im engaging in the sense that im a citizen just as you are. Im going to bejust as much prey to everything thats happening to our planet as you are. I have children. Certainly, yeah. I dont know what age you are, but youre not going to be on this planet for much longer, neither am i. If youre a teenager, you can see this happening over the next 50, 60 years. Im engaging with you, but im not sure youre engaging with me. Why do you think so many people, even inside Extinction Rebellion, think that youve gone too far when you recently said you wanted to put drones up around heathrow to ensure that Heathrow Airport was closed down. There were people inside your own organisation who said, hang on a minute, that is not what we are about. You have to consider strategy in a way that youre not doing. The fact of the matter is, with the Aviation Industry and the whole carbon economy, all this activity is bringing us to destruction. Theres people in Extinction Rebellion and other networks who, as an act of conscience, are going to be taking action against that. Thats the same as it happened in the. Ill give you a quote from somebody, i dont know if you know him personally, but simon mckibbin, a lecturer at cambridge university, joined Extinction Rebellion and now left, specifically because he was horrified and upset by your plan to shut down heathrow with drones. He said, threatening to fly drones into a busy airspace is a departure from the ethics of nonviolence. It threatens people and puts people at risk. He said, i believe if this is permitted to go ahead well lose the goodwill of the public. Why do you persist with this . Because were facing mass starvation, and because people generally in society, particularly people in the elites, are not capable and are not empathising with that reality. Will you put those drones up . Myself . Well, would you . Those in your movement and people that believe, like you, that its justifiable. This is whats coming down the road. If the elites dont respond to non violent action, then you know whats going to come next. People other than Extinction Rebellion will use violence, thats whats coming down the road. Im speaking as a sociologist here, im not saying its good or bad, what im saying is if you put a society under a massive amount of stress, and if you propose. Will you. Leave me a minute, let mejust finish this. If you tell the citizens of countries that the government is facilitating their death, than you can expect one thing, particularly in a country like britain, where people dont put up with such nonsense, you can expect rebellion. Will you, just answer the question, try to close down Heathrow Airport with drones . It hasnt been decided. I dont want to talk about specific things because thats not