It is about half past four in the morning. You are up to date with the headlines. Now on bbc news Hardtalks Stephen Sackur talks to valerie jarrett, who was Senior Advisor to president obama from 2009 2017. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. It is one of the great puzzles of american politics how voters could make history by putting barack obama in the white house, twice, and then elect donald trump as his successor. How much responsibility should team obama take for the course american politics has taken since they left centre stage . My my guest today is valeriejarrett, close friend and advisor to barack and Michelle Obama, from the early daysin and Michelle Obama, from the early days in chicago all the way through the white house years. How will historians view the obama legacy . Valerie jarrett, valeriejarrett, welcome to hardtalk. Well, thank you, im delighted to be here. Thank you for having me. Its a pleasure. I would like to take you right back to 1991. You then matt, you interviewed a younger Michelle Robinson for a job, younger Michelle Robinson for a job, you are a Senior Lawyer and she wa nted you are a Senior Lawyer and she wanted a job, a few weeks or months later you met her fiance, wanted a job, a few weeks or months later you met herfiance, rack obama, what did you see in that couple that attracted you to them and what to think they saw in you . Barack obama. And what to think they saw in you . Barack obama. They had just been promoted and i was staffing my office. And someone sent me a resume and across the top it said brilliant young lawyer has no interest in being in a big law firm, would like to explore Public Service. I had abandoned a big law firm six years earlier and was impressed with her as may. And walks this tall, confident woman, shook my hand, look me dead in the eye, saw my resume, ever mentioned a word that was on it, she told me her story. We now know it is a quintessential american story about growing up on the south side of chicago, working class family, instilled in both she and her brother the sense of to those who much is given much is expected, and although they had not gone to couege although they had not gone to college she and both her brother was supported to go to college. You were mighty impressed by michelle from the get go. Offered her a job on the spot, didnt have the authority, but they did it anyway. The witness thing happened, when she offered her thejob, she thing happened, when she offered her the job, she didnt just thing happened, when she offered her the job, she didntjust say yes, please, ill take it, she said we have discussed it, my fiance and i, and he has a few problems with the mayor and is not myjob is the right thing for me, im not going to take it unless you agree to come and have dinner with me and my fiance, barack obama and then i will make a decision weirdness. Obama and then i will make a decision weirdness. She played it a little softer than that. She said we wa nt a little softer than that. She said we want to make sure that we do this asa team. We want to make sure that we do this as a team. They was intrigued. They wa nted as a team. They was intrigued. They wanted her very much. Ive heard of him when he was a Community Organiser in chicago and obviously his being president of the harvard law review impressed me. And i was happy to do it. And people who think its not isolated than this, icesave there wasnt a single decision he made about his political career without her right there at the table as well. So is more an indication of the partnership that they had in their approach to making big life decisions together. That is a fascinating thing to say. But it strikes me that theres a rider one could add to would that which is that im not sure there was a single big decision he took going all the way through the white house years that didnt involve your ascent and agreement. Well, i will say the three of us bonded that night, in 1991, nearly 30 years ago now, and have been very close personal friends. Ill look at them as the younger siblings they never had. That two summaries is a very interesting question about a potential conflict of interest data to some. You know the kids extra ordinarily well, they know your daughter extraordinarily well, youve holidayed with them all the way through the white house years and yet you are also a very senior professional advisor. Its the opposite of a conflict of influence interest. You have someone who knows you well and knows your core values and is only there to support you as well as someone who brings substance to the table. , yes, but rather manual, 0bamas first chief of staff clearly did not think it was right. He felt that there were channels open to you that he clearly did not have and that you could bypass the hierarchy, the white house machine, and, friendly, he wa nted house machine, and, friendly, he wanted you out. He had reservations about my coming on board. I think what we realise after we had worked together for a what we realise after we had worked togetherfor a while is what we realise after we had worked together for a while is that i was a pa rt together for a while is that i was a part of the team. I was an integral pa rt part of the team. I was an integral part of the team. I was an integral part of the team and it would not have been right for the process that the president obama set forth to circumvented and kind of go if you will. You didnt go through the chief of staff, you went to the president xi below the three senior advisers reported directly to the present. We were still 18. Think thatis present. We were still 18. Think that is the point you are missing are team. Im interested in reporting of some people who were there at the time, daniel slateman, who wrote a book about the obama presidency, he said you were pretty much tantamount to a strategy. Did you feel like a shadow ta star for an alternate chief of staff . They dont even know what that term means. Most myself, as did the other senior advisers, all who reported directly to the president , as part of his team. We met before we would go in and talk to him and tried to reach consensus with one another. We tried to make sure we had cast a broad net so we gave him informed opinions. Then we went in there together. If he disagreed we would say valerie thinks this, so and so think that. And then president obama would debate the issue and make a decision. What i think was extraordinary about his leadership style was that he really listened to whomever he thought had the best ideas. It could be the mostjunior person in the room. I want to go through some of the issues that you had to go through in the white house. Such a strong theme in the memoir that you have written is your ta ke memoir that you have written is your take on race in america today. Your race, first of all, outside of the United States in iran. You always said that gave you a particular sort of context on america. You we you we re of context on america. You we you were a young black girl who did not suffer prejudice in the first years of your life. Do you think you and he shared a perspective on Racial Division in the United States . think we had the benefit of seeing the United States from the outside that were not riddled with the discrimination my parents saw, for example, before they left the United States. They ended up in iran because my father couldnt find a job comparable to what his white cou nterpa rts job comparable to what his white counterparts were receiving when he left the military as a large academic teaching institution, that is where he wanted to do his research. So he landed a job at the department of pathology and starting a brand new hospital. And ive lived there until it was five, and then i moved here to the uk for a year and then to the United States. So my very early years, innocence, my pa rents very early years, innocence, my parents took me over the colour line at the same time, for example, that ruby bridges was integrating her school in louisiana, surrounded by armed guards, im going to an American School with young kids from all over the world. I was thinking ina all over the world. I was thinking in a different way, that may be 0bama in a different way, that may be obama and you with your perspective from outside the us and the fact that you hadnt, personally, experienced in your young life so much outright discrimination, maybe that was one reason why much outright discrimination, maybe that was one reason why obama always wa nted that was one reason why obama always wanted to avoid being defined by policies that were, perhaps, to some people in the United States, to be seen as the politics of black anger 01 seen as the politics of black anger or resentment or grievance. He was a lwa ys or resentment or grievance. He was always careful to say iama president who happens to be black, rather than the first black president. In some black people in the United States and felt that he let them down, he didnt confront the systemic racism that there is in the United States today. First of all, president 0bama, today. First of all, president obama, to this day, is extraordinarily popular in the black community. Extraordinary. His Approval Ratings are 90, 90 9 in the black community. Whether some people who thought he should do more . Of course. You could down down every possible way people wished we could have done more. We wished we could have done more. We wish we could have done. I think president obama did do as he tried to talk about race in a way where people could hear him, where it was a teaching moment. So, for example, after the murders in charleston, when reverend pinckney and eight other prisoners were murdered by a self identified White Supremacists he said, look, it is not enough to ta ke he said, look, it is not enough to take down the confederate flag, what are we doing to improve our schools, to strengthen the relationship between police and communities of colour . He always tried to discuss it in colour . He always tried to discuss itina colour . He always tried to discuss it in a way where people could hear him and see themselves any other person. Why do you some very important opinion formers, thought leaders in the black community have, in retrospect, been very negative about 0bamas impact . In retrospect, been very negative about obamas impact . So who are you talking about . Able give you a few quotes. Alysia garza, cocreator. Of quotes. Alysia garza, cocreator. Of black lies matter. Quotes. Alysia garza, cocreator. Of black lies matter. Too often 0bama of black lies matter. Too often obama has used things like the killings in ferguson, not to push for greater accountability within law enforcement, but to push a narrative that black people should behave more responsibly. Narrative that black people should behave more responsibly. narrative that black people should behave more responsibly. I would disagree with her. The facts bear it out in ferguson. They did an investigation and found a pattern and practice of discriminatory behaviour required the city to enter into a Consent Decree to terminate those practices. Police there were simply giving people tickets as a way of generating revenue and disproportionately affecting the African American community, so the fa ct African American community, so the fact that actually dont bear up that promise. One more thought, frederick harris, learner professor, columbia university, this is his conclusion why should black constituents bear the burden of 0bamas risk aversion when it comes to these difficult issues of race . I dont have any idea what he would have had him do differently. You never felt that obama was risk averse . Not at all. In his First Campaign one of the most profound, roll the human speech is about race they have heard anyone give against they have heard anyone give against the advice of some people who said steer away from that. He made that speech because his own foster back in chicago, jeremiah wright, had been exposed a video saying some negative things about the United States and black people that barack 0bama worried about in terms of the impact on his campaign. That might express some risk aversion. What he thought he needed to do was explain to the American People his relationship to the pastor. Until quite honestly about race. I think in the aftermath of the shooting of Trayvon Martin, president obama zebre family if i had a son he would look like Trayvon Martin. He was trying to communicate to the broader Public Health feels, why is it, in our country, and he said this ina it, in our country, and he said this in a briefing room, but a young black man cant walk down a street in his own neighbourhood and worry about being at risk . And out of that grew my brother s keeper, which is designed to help the trajectory. If they may say so, and idea remember that passion and this was quite clearly. Young men like Trayvon Martin are still being done down by Police Forces across america today. And id just wonder with you and with your talking to president 0bama since he left office of thoughts about the reasons why, to be blunt, you fail to change the dynamic. I think it would be unrealistic to think that one president is going to change in eight years something that has been a part of our society for so long. What he did do was to create a taskforce that looked at the relationship between police and communities of colour and he gave a blueprint to them of what they could do to improve that bond of trust, because both police and those who they serve and protect both deserve to go home safely. Unrealistic, you say, guess that raises the issue of legacy. 80 is of the obama administration, what they changed for good in the United States of america eight years. What would you point to is a true, lasting achievement . Well, so, for example, we cut the Unemployment Rate in half, including people of colour. Then implement rate was cut in half. 20 Million People have healthcare today, many have whom did not have it before. No one can be discriminated against for a pre existing condition. 0sama bin laden is no longer Walking Around the earth. We did not have a single terrorist attack on our watch. We brought home 150,000 troops, we entered into a climate accord with other countries, and although the United States has pulled out, and many other countries have stayed in that deal. 0n the list goes on. We have eliminated. You can talk about the jobless figures, the killing of bin laden which some can describe as circumstantial. Circumstantial that the person who was responsible for the horrid destruction in the United States and we went after him and found him . Just like other administrations. But we found him and brought him tojustice. Administrations. But we found him and brought him to justice. Barack 0bama didntfind and brought him to justice. Barack 0bama didnt find it. My point is this. In that list you gave me, the key was affordable healthcare. That was a signature measure which barack 0bama personally put himself on the line four and he got through the us congress. Keeping our economy from going into the worst. He inherited the crash of 2007 and 2008 but what did he really changed about the banking system. Substantially. There are rules the rule in place under dodd frank. You have not seen any of the kind of abuses you so under our watch when we first got they happen again not to mention investing into the recovery act which helped businesses and state and local government and reverse that trend, bailing out the Automobile Industry which were two out of three were in bankruptcy when president obama took office. A lot of the things present 0bama president obama took office. A lot of the things present obama did were in the end executive action because you lost control of the house into thousand and ten and you never had a congress you could truly work with. That means that donald trump, using a similar executive actions can undo and hasnt done much. Elections have consequences and so when you say what is permanent that is why i encourage people to vote. If you wa nt to encourage people to vote. If you want to continue the trajectory i run you have to make sure the people in office reflect the same values. We changed the executive orders that president bush put in place and that is what happens. So much of what you did has been trashed. I wonder, if i may, to put you and both the obama, you were with them as a results came through. Talk to me about your feelings when he became plain that donald trump was going to be in the white house. It was profoundly disappointing that a country that had elected barack obama twice had gonein had elected barack obama twice had gone in that direction and it has been disappointing since that day. It was also troubling that 43 did not vote and after role Hillary Clinton won the majority of the vote. Where you utterly blindsided . I did not see it coming andi blindsided . I did not see it coming and i think what happened in the country created a wake up call. It began the day after the inauguration with the womens march, the young folks from parkland, the activism from the metoo and times up movement, women and people of colour who ran for office, the fact that the democrats took back the house of representatives and put nancy pelosi again asa representatives and put nancy pelosi again as a speaker of the house, the fa ct we again as a speaker of the house, the fact