are still on the streets. now on bbc news, it's organisers say on sunday there were nearly two million people time for hardtalk. on the streets. if confirmed, it would be the largest protest in hong kong's history. welcome to hardtalk, where i have the territory's leader, carrie lam, apologises for proposing the bill come to manly, in sydney, australia, that demonstrators fear to talk to one of the world's most distinguished authors, thomas will increase chinese influence. kennelly. he has written more than 30 novels, including his most i'm kasia madera in london. also in the programme: famous, schindler's ark, which was millions of people are still made into an oscar—winning film, without electricity after a massive power cut across almost all schindler's list. now in his 80s, as of argentina and uruguay. celebrations as india defeats pakistan in a cricket world cup he reflects on modern—day australia, does he believe it is a country that has matured in its identity, or is it still divided on race and culture 7 it still divided on race and culture? thomas can, welcome to hardtalk. you have written about a huge range of topics— the american civil war, the first world war, joan of arc, napoleon... how do you go about choosing a topic for a book? it is usually some weird connection with australia that begins me, in that i heard that there was a family on saint helena who knew napoleon, and then they got so close to napoleon that they fell out of favour and were sent where the british sent everyone unsatisfactory in the 19th century, to australia. and so i love those connections between the old world, because i was raised in an australia that considered itself to be out of the world, the sort of, the last thing before the penguins and antarctica. so you start with your home country and then link to the rest of the world. all right. you are very drawn to moral dilemmas and in your youth you trained to become a priest, and then you say a loss of faith made you change your mind. however, as religion, morality, how has it influenced your work?” religion, morality, how has it influenced your work? i think there isa influenced your work? i think there is a tradition in moral argument, typified injudaism, is a tradition in moral argument, typified in judaism, of is a tradition in moral argument, typified injudaism, of taking hours to discuss whether you should give a camel a to discuss whether you should give a camela drink or to discuss whether you should give a camel a drink or not, and in which vessel it should be. and i love those moral arguments and am drawn to them. above all, having grown up ina to them. above all, having grown up in a country fairly much at peace with itself and having been white in that country, i ask myself how i would have behaved if i were an ss man, for example, and that is one of the engines that drove my interest in the schindler book, to ask myself whether the correct conditioning — andi whether the correct conditioning — and i was conditioned towards the catholic priesthood in my childhood — with the correct conditioning, could i be a killer? could i be filled with the right strain of ideology to give me, to empower me, to pull the trigger? it is often questions of that nature that i look at. would you have pulled the trigger? could you... i don't know, and i'm pleased i will probably never find out. the and i'm pleased i will probably neverfind out. the price for not pulling the trigger is of course very extreme under that regime, and so very extreme under that regime, and so when you have an upside down system, where himmler says "courage is to stand, or morality, rather, is to stand on a heap of 500 bodies and feel nothing". if i had been taught that, could i have done it with the right conditioning? i will never know, thank god. i will never likely, i'm 83... i don't think you would have, somehow.” likely, i'm 83... i don't think you would have, somehow. i do tend to be troubled institutionally, i hope that would stick with me in those extreme situations. glad to hear that! you have written more than 30 novels, but it is schindler's ark for which he won the booker prize, that really is the book that people most associated with you. but there was some controversy when you were awarded the prize for it, and of course it was made into the oscar—winning film schindler's list, starring liam neeson, the german industrialist who saved more than 1200 dues from the nazis. it wasn't a book of fiction, you wrote it as if it was a sort of novel, but your plot was already there. it was the greatest multifaceted lens through which to look at the holocaust, one could encounter. and the survivors wa nted could encounter. and the survivors wanted told literally, and i was happy to accommodate them in the spirit of "in cold blood", in the truman capote e factional spirit. it was registered as a novel, and it w011 was registered as a novel, and it won the booker prize. this was, as you say, and intense controversy for a while, and i think the people at booker have shown that they knew it was a mistake they shouldn't have made by never nominating me for one ain! made by never nominating me for one again! because the plot was there. do you think some of the criticism was legitimate for that reason, that you based it on a true story?” basedit you based it on a true story?” based it on a true story and i tried to tell it in the spirit of truman capote's in cold blood, and in the spirit of newjournalism as well. it would have been hard if condemned, brought before a court for passing myself off as a novelist, in that case i would have had quite an argument on my hands, i admit. one of your most famous early novels was the chant ofjimmie blacksmith, about a mixed race aboriginal man who goes on a killing rampage. one could say to you, how could you, as a white australian, put yourself in the shoes of an aboriginal man, is that an example of cultural appropriation? yes, i believe it was. it wasn't seen so at the time, but i have since said that if i were writing the chant ofjimmie blacksmith, for which the aboriginals have forgiven me, that ifi aboriginals have forgiven me, that if i were writing it now i would leave the interior world of the aboriginal to them, because there is a whole cohort of gifted australian novelists — jonathan birch, a whole cohort of gifted australian novelists —jonathan birch, for example — emerging from amongst aboriginal people, and they other people who should tell that people from within. are you not doing the same thing again with your latest novel, the book of science and antiquities, where you put yourself in the mind of an aboriginal who lived thousands of years ago. yes, well we had homo sapiens here very early, dominant i think because of the megafauna that surrounded them, there were the species that surrounded the early aboriginal australians, were phenomenal, and they were protein on legs, and on big legs! so the paleolithic aboriginals lived very well, and it did come to this time, i want to write about two old man. a modern old man like myself dying, of cancer, which i then had so i was not letting my research go to waste, and then this paleolithic man whom i have encountered, and ifeel and then this paleolithic man whom i have encountered, and i feel he and then this paleolithic man whom i have encountered, and ifeel he is my soulmate, this paleolithic human being. but i don't see him as aboriginal, although he is the forerunner of three aboriginal tribes. the traditional owners of that area are his descendants. but i see him as fair game because he is early homo sapiens. at the time, he was living high on the hog, or on the doprodoton, to name one large megafauna animal. but there was a mental and spiritualjourney of deciding how to behave as humans, so my forebears have been there too, and so! my forebears have been there too, and so i felt it was ok to write about mungo man. are you trying to make a point to the modern world that aboriginals have lived in australia for longer than we originally thought? is that the message you want to make? yes, and i felt that with the case of mungo man, who! felt that with the case of mungo man, who i put as learners man in my novel, that he is an australian phenomenon. he is a world phenomenon. he is a world phenomenon. he is the first ritual burial of a phenomenon. he is the first ritual burial ofa human, phenomenon. he is the first ritual burial of a human, 42,000 years ago he was adorned with ochre that came from 200 miles away. implements were used in his burial that came from another community of homo sapiens way up in the australian alps, so i just want australians to know that there were humans who were a going concern and who were living well two ice ages ago in australia, and that thatis ice ages ago in australia, and that that is our history too. that spirituality is at least our history. and mungo man, who should have a great centre unto himself in central australia was buried quite — not routinely, but his return to country, the taking of his skeleton back to his country and burying it by the three tribes was not a big australian event, and it should have been. it should have been because it makes a mockery of the way aboriginal history was taught to us. this sort of aboriginal history that was taught to us was all we needed to ta ke was taught to us was all we needed to take the country away and to consider it terra nullius, earth belonging to no—one, so we could just take it. and the more we relish and celebrate this paleolithic history, the more untenable our views about aboriginals are going to be. here we are in modern-day australia, 25 million population, about 3.5% are aboriginal, and yet we know their life expectancy is about ten years shorter than the average australian, and infant mortality is twice the rate of others. you think now that things are getting better for the aboriginals — scott morrison the prime minister has appointed for the first time and aboriginal as indigenous minister... yes, progress and education, but it is not automatic. it is two steps forward and one step back. a lot of the damage that was done was done well intentioned ly. i guess you could say that about many things. but the removal of aboriginal people is an example, an extreme violation of human rights which the administrations of the past saw as a solution to the problem of having a large, unreconciled native population in the hinterland. they we re population in the hinterland. they were removed from their families and resettled with white people. in 2008, the prime minister of the time, kevin rudd, issued a complete and utter apology for that, so... absolutely. it was an example of things being done in the name of virtue and progress in the past that was a terrible violation of how people felt. i have met aboriginals who were of the stolen generation, and there is no doubt that it has damaged them hugely. what does the treatment of the aboriginals tell us about australians today and the vast majority, of course, i like you, descendants of white settlers, because i give you a quote from one british american comedian, john oliver, of the daily show. he said this after he visited australia: "australia turned out to be a sensational place, albeit one of the most comfortably racist places i have ever been in. they have really settled into their intolerance like a resentful old slipper." is that a fair comment or would you say... he would have met plenty of people who justified that comment. on the other hand he would have met the sort of australian who considers that understanding aboriginal history is the way to establishing oui’ history is the way to establishing our legitimacy, that our legitimacy cannot be had at the price of denying there's. this australia was a huge land grab and we can come to terms with that cooperatively and through figures of reconciliation which force the reality of ancient occupation in the way that mungo man does. there is reconciliation there. a solution there. and there is knowledge there, the sort of knowledge there, the sort of knowledge that puts paid to narrower versions of the aboriginal story. you like to write a lot about culture and identity. a recurring theme in so many of your books and you describe yourself as an irish catholic australian. i wonder why you need that sort of highfalutin identity? why can't you just say i am an australian. because once you say i am this kind all that kind of australian, doesn't that introduce division? it is not meant to. certainly not as i use it. it is meant to acknowledges who's1's ghost is. we all have a different dreaming, a different set of icons which are soul enriching and come partly from the old world, where our a ncestors partly from the old world, where our ancestors came from, and after all a ncestor ancestors came from, and after all ancestor worship is one of the great religions. and we want to mediate that story to the world. so everyone is allowed to have the ghosts but it is allowed to have the ghosts but it is common, right—wing people, conservative people do say oh, we just want to be, we don't want to be greek australian, we just want to be australian australian. but they are generally of the anglo tradition, many of them. and so there is a continuity for them in their british origins and british identity here. so when you talk about identity and the other, you have said, because you are an ambassador of the asylum centre here in australia, you were made that in 2015. you have said how asylu m made that in 2015. you have said how asylum seekers are treated in australia is the greatest test of oui’ australia is the greatest test of our national honour and honesty, the way we welcome and, or, punish the asylu m way we welcome and, or, punish the asylum seeker. it is a test we have frankly failed. why is that the test of national honour? it is the test of national honour? it is the test of national honour because it is bad for liberal democracies, for governments to lie. and to get us in a position where we can countenance the excision of various territories from parts of australia so that if a refugee turned up on there, on a boat, it didn't entitle them to seek a sale and. such as when they went to christmas island and it was made not part of australia. and then manus and nauru. so we began by arguing that to save australia from terror we had to keep these people in permanent detention. and so we have had what can only be called concentration camps in australia run by, often, to the wealth of international corporations, which u psets international corporations, which upsets me as well because they are not run by the australian public service exhaustively but they are camps in which people are punished for having psychologically, for having the ambition to be australians. i say there is a big lie. we have to punish these people to stop them taking boats across the sea to australia. many of them will drown if they do and so either you are in favour of a punitive regime of punishing people, not the people smugglers but the people who are smuggled, punishing them for wanting to be australian, for wanting to see caven. if we ease up on them, we will only encourage the boat smugglers. now there is a third method, plan that hasn't even been tried. what if you save all the money you spend on foreign corporations running these concentration camps, put your officials into bali where the refugees are turning up and use your officials and use the money you are wasting on hysteria at the moment, use that money to process those people. they call them detention centres not concentration camps but it is difficult for governments because you can't allow unfettered, you know... asylum seekers coming in. and it is not even a kind of right wing thing but actually labour prime ministers, labour governments, the liberal, who are the conservatives. my nieces the shadow minister for conservatives. my nieces the shadow ministerfor home conservatives. my nieces the shadow minister for home affairs. it is conservatives. my nieces the shadow ministerfor home affairs. it is on her. public opinion on the whole supports governments keeping out boat people. indeed. buti supports governments keeping out boat people. indeed. but i think it has been done with smoke and mirrors and lies. the real option, the civilising option and the only option that is going to work in europe or here is if there is collaboration across many governments and i know the hungarians don't want to be agreed on terms for dealing with this problem because it is delusional to think it is going to stop. there are 60 million of these people worldwide, they are a nation in the midst of us and we will be unable to deal with them by just midst of us and we will be unable to deal with them byjust saying no, no, no. when you look at australia using nearly half the population, 49%, were born abroad or one of their parents was born abroad, so it isa their parents was born abroad, so it is a very welcoming country. a country built by immigrants starting on the 18th century with the british coming here. so how would you describe australia today in terms of being a successful multicultural country, which many of its people here say it is. there is an undeniable generosity in those who have it. i'm not talking about myself. these aren't noble people. there is an undeniable tolerance combined with great political incorrectness. i think the americans, with all due respect to john oliver, the americans say one thing, they are careful about what they say in their language is clear in that they are primitively racist often at base. the australians often say something outrageous but they're practically not racist at base. not all ways. i do not wish to romanticise us. that is always a mistake, to romanticise anyone. i'm not trying to excuse australian racism. but it is the truth that amongst men in particular, the british irish working—class tradition of expressing affection through mutual insults is very strong. so don't take the abusive invective at face value. there is the stereotype of an australian male of being a chauvinistic almost misogynistic character. almost misogynistic, you are too kind to us. julia gillard, the former prime minister talked about it. but you are famous for your work ethic, thomas kennelly. you already began your next book? i'm fascinated by the fact that australia was the netherworld to which 19th—century british sent its people and dickens sent his son. child —— this is going to be about the youngest son of charles dickens, his girlfriend and his family collapsed. we look forward to it. thomas kennelly, thank you very much and thank you for coming on hardtalk. hello again. following all the heavy rain that we had last week, all that water has been running up hills and into our river catchments. this is the river severn and a number of flood warnings in force. an area of low pressure has been influencing the weather across the uk every single day of this month so far and for monday, the low pressure is just to the west of ireland, continuing to the west of ireland, continuing to bring showers and lengthy outbreaks of rain. if you are heading outside over the next hour 01’ heading outside over the next hour or two, take the wet weather gear across northern scotland because the rain will be heavy. a few showers for northern ireland and some rain working in as well across wales and pa rt working in as well across wales and part of north—west england. it is a mild start to the morning so you do not need too many layers out and about to through monday, out and about, the front is not going to move about, the front is not going to m ove very about, the front is not going to move very far very quickly. to the north, to the finals of england, northern ireland and scotland, it is a day of heavy infantry showers and limited bright and sunny spells. across the southern east midlands, east anglia and much of southern england, the weather should stay largely dry with some warm june sunshine and temperatures reaching the low 20s. the good news is we finally lose the influence of this area of low pressure mid week and the bad news was that we have another area of low pressure moving in from the south bringing the threat of some more heavy and potentially foundry rain. this is how tuesday starts off. wet weather sta rts how tuesday starts off. wet weather starts the day in highland scotland, gradually moving eastwards with time. starting to turn a bit cloudier later in the day and feeling perhaps a little more humid as well across the south of wales and southern parts of england. we may start to see some showers breakout. low showers, we already have my office warning for these, late on tuesday through tuesday night and into wednesday, the amount of rain that we get will vary a lot from place to place. even that the ground is completely saturated, where we do get the heavy downpour is coming through we could see some surface water flooding building very quickly. there is a whisk of some disruption to road and rail. the exact decision of the thundery downpours are still open to doubt, a large spread of east—west movement but it mostly looks like england at risk on perhaps a little rain into eastern parts of wales. through wednesday also some heavy showers again through northern ireland and scotla nd again through northern ireland and scotland bringing unsettled weather but the weather has not been as wet across this part of the uk as other areas so hopefully that rain will 00:28:11,248 --> 4294966103:13:29,430 not be impactful.

Related Keywords

Australia , Midlands , Leicestershire , United Kingdom , United States , Hong Kong , Argentina , Antarctica , Australian Alps , New South Wales , China , Northern Ireland , Craigavon , London , City Of , Christmas Island , Nauru , Saint Helena , India , Sydney , River Severn , United Kingdom General , Uruguay , Ireland , Bali , Zhejiang , Americans , Australian , Chinese , British , Scotland , Australians , Irish , American , Kevin Rudd , Schindler Ark , Kasia Madera , Julia Gillard , Scott Morrison , Carrie Lam , Thomas Kennelly , Liam Neeson ,