Well talk to the former deputy mayor of london, lee jasper, whos joining the family in calling for an immediate Public Inquiry into what hes calling police brutality. And if your childs classmates hadnt had their vaccinations, would you want them excluded from school . The Health Secretary, matt hancock, says he hasnt ruled that out after vaccination levels in the uk dropped to levels well below the World Health Organisations target. Hello. Welcome to the programme. Were live until 11 this morning. If youre a parent, or a teacher, do get in touch about our story this morning on whether children who havent been vaccinated should be told to stay home from school. Weve had some comments already. Jo on email says we have a responsibility to ensure that not only are our own children are protected from the devastation of measles but also all the children with whom they mix inside and outside of formal situations. Craig on email says it would be quite easy to ensure everyone was vaccinated by stopping children entering a School Environment entirely. Also stopping unvaccinated children entering any area populated by a number of children. And iain on email says there is a simple answer to this. Make it the law. Do get in touch on all the stories were talking about use the hashtag victoria live. If youre emailing and are happy for us to contact you and maybe want to take part in the Programme Please include your phone number in your message. If you text, youll be charged at the Standard Network rate. First, annita has the news. Good morning and thank you. Good morning, everyone. Britains most senior Civil Servant has begun a formal inquiry into the leak from a meeting of the National Security council. The secret meeting which was attended by cabinet ministers discussed the potential use of equipment manufactured by the Chinese Company huawei in the uks 56 mobile network. Lord gus odonnell the former cabinet secretary who set up the National Security council described the leak as a complete outrage when every meeting starts you start with the head of thejoint Intelligence Committee assessing evidence. This is very classified material, very serious. Breaking news, debenhams has announced a number of store closures, 22 stores will shut in 2020. About 1200 staff will shut in 2020. About 1200 staff will be affected by the closures we are told. Emergency services are attending the tata steelworks in port talbot after several loud explosions in the early hours. South wales police say the blasts appear to have been caused by molten metalfalling off a train and setting fire to several buildings. Two people suffered minor injuries and tata says an investigation is underway. Sri lankas president says the hunt is on for dozens of suspects linked to the islamic state, who are still at large inside the country. The president also said the islamist preacher who is believed to have planned easter sundays suicide bombings was killed in one of the attacks. Leaders of the Muslim Community have called for friday prayers to be held in private forfear of retaliatory attacks. Its understood the british and irish governments are planning to set up fresh talks to restore power sharing in Northern Ireland. The plan would see them start after the Council Elections on 2nd may. It follows the death of journalist lyra mckee who was shot dead a week ago, during riots in derry. We can cross to a News Conference which has just begun, we can cross to a News Conference which hasjust begun, the Police Service of Northern Ireland and they are holding a News Conference regarding the death of lyra mckee. From the direction of the shops. Here you can see these men. At the front you can see a man circled, he is carrying a crate of petrol bombs. Behind him, you can see two other men. The man on the inside nearest of all is the next tallest. You can see this on the footage shortly. The man on the inside is wearing dark skinnyjeans, blue man on the inside is wearing dark skinny jeans, blue nikkei man on the inside is wearing dark skinnyjeans, blue nikkei trainers with a fight tech and white soul. He is wearing a camouflage scarf or other covering across his face. I believe that the public knows who he is. In otherfootage, you can see he can be seen holding a petrol bomb and in the light his clothing is clearly visible. As he walked along the footpath he was accompanied by the footpath he was accompanied by the third man. You will see from the footage he is shorter than both at the other man and is of stocky build. It is my belief he is the gunman that fired indiscriminately into the crowd and place the community and Police Officers at risk. I believe he is the person that took the life of lyra mckee. You can see he is wearing dark clothing and in the new light on this footage you can see his clothing more clearly. I believe that people in the Community Know who this individual is. I recognise that People Living in creggan may feel its difficult to come forward to speak to police. Today i want to provide a personal reassurance that we are able to deal with those issues sensitively. At the funeral of lyra mckee on wednesday we heard many messages about the potential for a Better Future but many messages about the potential for a betterfuture but as i said previously, such sentiment will be all in vain if collectively we cannot tackle the malign influences that some individuals continue to exert over our communities. Im really grateful to the Crimestoppers Charity for supporting our efforts to unlock the information i believe rests within the community. The substantial reward that they have offered as a recognition of the challenges that some within the community may feel that they face. To date, we have received widespread public support and this includes within 140 public support and this includes within1a0 People Public support and this includes within 140 people who provided within140 people who provided images, footage and other information via a Major Incident public portal. However, Community Intelligence and Community Information is not evidence, such information is not evidence, such information simply gets me through the door but it doesnt get me to the door but it doesnt get me to the door but it doesnt get me to the door of a court room. I need people to contact my team to talk to us people to contact my team to talk to us about what they know. 0k, ladies and gents, im happy to ta ke 0k, ladies and gents, im happy to take some questions, please bear in mindi take some questions, please bear in mind i am on a fairly short time frame here. Hang on, one second. To be clear, that is the person you believe pulled the trigger . Yes. Following questions, i will go back and anything anyone needs. Is that 0k . Can ijust is that 0k . Can i just come is that 0k . Can ijust come over is that 0k . Can i just come over the other side of you, superintendent . Thank you. Well some questions. So, you heard from detective superintendent jason murphy speaking live from belfast, giving a Police Statement on the investigation into the murder of lyra mckee. He was saying that he believes that the Community Knows who these three individuals are, details released, pictures released of three men, cctv footage. They also identified one of the men that they believe was the gunman who shot lyra mckee and they are appealing to the community to come forward with more information because they believe that information is known within the community. You could see detective superintendent jason murphy was about to take questions from the media and if we get any more details we will bring it to you. A marathon running family have accused organisers of the London Marathon of discrimination because of rules that say they cant push their disabled son along the route. David and sandra kerr have run 35 marathons pushing aaron in his adapted wheelchair and wanted to do the same this weekend. Despite asking the race organisers to change their minds, London Marathon say long Standing International race rules are clear that everyone taking part must do so under their own power meaning they cant push aaron along the route. Well, we can speak to david and sandra from their home in county down now. Aaron is non verbal but is there with them. Thank you so much forjoining us this morning. David, firstly, youve run so many races this morning. David, firstly, youve run so many races with aaron, 35 marathons as we heard. Explain what it does for you as a family to com plete it does for you as a family to complete those marathons together . Firstly, thank you for inviting us to talk this morning, we appreciate it. Running together, its to talk this morning, we appreciate it. Running together, its changed oui it. Running together, its changed our lives. I think its not too dramatic to say. We have lived with disability for many years, we were isolated for many years. We came across running, sandra first and then myself and aaron joint. Across running, sandra first and then myself and aaronjoint. Sandra, since then, we caught the bug and the changes in our life, notjust us, in aaron, in particular, the changes in his confidence, social skills, his health, because aaron is immunosuppressed, its amazing. And it has been life changing for our family. We can see the medals behind you, the incredible stash that you have so if youve competed in so many marathons why is it important to run the London Marathon . The London Marathon is one of the greatest in the world and we like any other marathon runners aspire to run that. Let me read to you a statement from the chief executive of London Marathon events. He said an individual cannot be considered a competitor in the London Marathon u nless competitor in the London Marathon unless they are participating in the event under their own power. Some races permit non competitors to be pushed or carried, some allow bicycles to participate at the same time even though they are governed by different rules and a different governing body. Every race is different. The London Marathon has high density, some narrow roads and steep hills, this is a combination of the races may not have. We have received numerous requests every year is similarto received numerous requests every year is similar to this and we have to respond in the same way to all. Can you understand that, especially when they talk about narrow roads, is details and the sheer number of people taking part . We have competed in countless races like manchester and dublin alongside other assisted runners. Theres been no issue. When it comes to things like hills, narrow streets, we have run in high density races, races of mass participation. With regards to health, we live in ireland, 29 out of 32 counties in ireland have hills, we do most of our training on health. Im not really sure, weve heard that quite a few times. Regarding international rules, weve run in many other iaaf events, weve had it confirmed from the iaaf that aaron could take part in london as a nonparticipant and aaron could take part in london as a nonparticipa nt and its aaron could take part in london as a nonparticipant and its at the london discretion whether that happens but clearly as it says in a statement, they are not prepared for that to happen and i think in 2019, we are being encouraged to get out, to stay fit and healthy, and you know, as carers, thats incredibly difficult to do but we have decided this is what we want to do and i think it should be there are a lot of people out there coming to us and contacting us that do assisted running and they are looking to see what london is doing in the sun to be honest, when you see other races around the world, like new york, boston, various others, or allow assisted runners to take part, you know, we just assisted runners to take part, you know, wejust wonder assisted runners to take part, you know, we just wonder why cant london talk to us about this . Why cant we find a way forward . We want to work with them, not against them, we dont want to create a false, we dont need special treatment, we dont need special treatment, we dont need special treatment, we dont need the course adjusted. Dont need special treatment, we dont need the course adjustedlj guess dont need the course adjusted. guess some people may think the worry could be, for example, you clearly have run a lot of marathons and you are clearly very fed but i guess the concern could be if you are running up a steep hill, pushing are running up a steep hill, pushing a wheelchair or maybe people want to ta ke a wheelchair or maybe people want to take children, push buggies, if their fitness isnt up to it, take children, push buggies, if theirfitness isnt up to it, they could cause a problem, people could full, i guess they are concerned about the safety of all of the participants, not just yourselves. totally understand that which is why we say we want to work with them and talk to them about it. Weve done almost 140 events, we have 100 safety record, we take our safety and the safety of others very, very seriously, we work with the organisers when we attend events, we have had comments from organisers on our professionalism so i understand the concerns completely. If they dont talk to us about it, we cannot reassure them and you know, move forward with this. There are a lot of regulations on a course, it gets too high density but as i say weve done races with 20,000 people on the course with no issues. All assisted runners, self propelled chairs, visually impaired, with guides, go of five minutes before the first wave. Runners come behind us, we have no issues, weve done that for yea rs have no issues, weve done that for years ina have no issues, weve done that for years in a row at an iaaf event. David, sandra and aaron, thank you so david, sandra and aaron, thank you so much for your time. Stay in touch with us and tell us if you manage to speak to London Marathon. Thank you. The Environmental Campaign Group Extinction Rebellion last night declared the end of its 11 day campaign which brought parts of london to a strand still. A boat was parked in the middle of Oxford Street for several days, stopping traffic. Protestors glued themselves to the top of trains and to the doors of the stock exchange. And there have been smaller protests in other cities around the uk. The metropolitan police says its arrested more than a thousand people, and has charged around 70 with offences like obstructing a highway and obstructing the police. So, did the organisations aims of moving Climate Change up the political agenda justify disruption for ordinary people . Lets talk to the conservative mp huw merriman, who thinks Extinction Rebellions actions may have been counter productive. And labours danielle rowley, who thinks the protests have been a success. Thanks both of you forjoining us. Why do you think the action may have been counter productive . why do you think the action may have been counterproductive . I think the message put out is incredibly important, people should take action but i think obstructing and inconveniencing people so they cannot go about their business frustrates people and my concern is it will put people off the cause. They appeal to people already concerned about it but reaching out to the masses by blocking access to roads, shutting down parts of public transport, therefore making london even more dirty and more unclean is hardly inner, counterintuitive, from that perspective. I regret the real direction, the direct action taken andi direction, the direct action taken and i have a feeling maybe they will look at their campaign a new and maybe reach out to people rather than put people off . Daniel, do you think it has put people off . Its really brought the issue to the forefront of the agenda. And weve seen so forefront of the agenda. And weve seen so much forefront of the agenda. And weve seen so much news coverage, forefront of the agenda. And weve seen so much news coverage, its been, Climate Change, being debated in parliament, talked about a prime ministers questions, that wouldnt have happened if we hadnt had extension rebellion but also School Strikers and the huge amount of publicity and effort that has come out of this. Extension rebellion. I hear what youre saying but i dont think it will put people off, it gives a platform to an issue and people who might not have engaged with it before it will be aware now. I want to play you a clip of our reporter, she spoke to an organiser of Extinction Rebellion, listen to this. How many people do you want to get arrested, how many people do you wa nt to get arrested, how many people do you want to go to prison . What do you think will make a difference. Its difficult to tell but somewhere in the thousands, you are in the game park of getting into government, ruling government, police will go to govern, say they are not doing it any more. They will not start arresting 84 year old grannies are ten year old kids, this could be a political solution. Extinction rebellion got what they want 1000 people arrested, they have a meeting with michael gove next week, it worked . The thing that concerns me hugely, there is a great amount of and were not actually talking about and were not actually talking about a huge amount of progress thats been made so i think there is a lot of ignorance and i detected it in whats been played. We dont need people being arrested, we need to need to continue to support scientists and innovators and make great progress. What we have to bear in mind, it used to be the case that we received only 6 of our Electricity Supply from renewables, backin Electricity Supply from renewables, back in 2010, thats almost at 40 . Emissions are lower than when Queen Victoria was on the throne, theyve never been this strong in an industrialised context and the other thing to bear in mind, of all the industrialised countries, we have the best record in reducing carbon so the best record in reducing carbon soi the best record in reducing carbon so i think, my concern is, theres a huge amount of fear and we should be talking about building on the great progress the uk has made and we lead the way. If you look at coal, just to be 70 reliant on coal, the attention has to be on china, 70 reliant on coal and building hundreds more power stations. Protesters in this country cannot influence what china does but they can influence what the government does and danielle, is it acceptable to break the law in order to get this message across . to break the law in order to get this message across . I thought it was interesting for Hugh Merriman said, listen to scientists, but scientists had been backing what Extinction Rebellion have done and they are using science to say that they are using science to say that the government hasnt done enough. The uk is on course to miss its targets and whats happening, people should be worried and they should be scared and they should be demanding action because the government needs to be doing much more. So yes, there is recognition about what the government has already done but its not good enough to you know, pat the government on the back and say that will be fine because it wont be fine. And theres so much at stake here. Sol fine. And theres so much at stake here. So i think its really important we listen to the protesters, we listen to scientists and we listen to people like the fantastic Greta Thunberg who came to parliament this week and spoke to politicians about the urgent action is needed because not enough, not nearly enough is being done. Let me read you a statement that weve had from the government and it says weve seen first hand the impact Climate Change is having on the environment and we share the passion to tackle this issue and protect the planet for future generations. People should be free to gather and demonstrate their views in public provided they do so within the boundaries of the law and without endangering the safety of the public. When you bear in mind what we are hearing from the united nations, for example, saying there has to be a drastic reduction in Greenhouse Gas production to make sure there isnt this global temperatures, do you think we are in a Climate Emergency . temperatures, do you think we are in a Climate Emergency . I think we absolutely have to do more but im more optimistic than perhaps danielle is. Emissions reduced by 44 in this country since the 1990s and theres no reason why we can see them reduce further and i back scientists because the reality is scientists because the reality is scientists are the engineers to get us scientists are the engineers to get us through this. Carbon capture and storage to me is key in the Climate Change report and they have said so. Weve had great news in the last month on that front. These will be the solution is, the technology providing solutions. Its great people protest and make us drive forward but the reality is it will be protesters who cause us to reduce emissions, it will be the scientists and the innovators and the government has put over a 50 billion into this sphere since 2010 so we have a great record. Ijust wish be more optimistic and proud of what weve done and as a country we have a better record than most of the industrialised countries. We need to talk up our record and persuade the likes of china and india that they can likes of china and india that they ca n follow likes of china and india that they can follow our lead so we use soft parrot to do so. A bit more optimism i think parrot to do so. A bit more optimism ithink and parrot to do so. A bit more optimism i think and a bit less fear and perhaps we can all Grow Together on this. Lots of people will say Greta Thunberg is one of them, we need to fear and we need to panic because of the situation we are in. Danielle, i wonder if the protesters have done is reinforce the view in the minds of people who agreed with them, push people away who didnt agree with them anyway . Do you think their action has converted anybody to the cause . I think its not about conversion, its about awareness and they have certainly, their actions had been all across the media and here in scotland, people have been talking about what was going on in london and i think it really has brought awareness to people that might not have had as much awareness but you know, its been a real team effort. You had protesters, School Strikers, David Attenborough and i think its so important not to listen to these voices. Sol think its so important not to listen to these voices. So i think theyve done a really, really good job of making sure its on the agenda and that people are talking about it so i think thats been a real success of the campaign. Thank you both very much for your time. Multi Level Marketing. You might not have heard the term before, but you might have seen friends or family selling products over social media. We looked at this kind of online selling last year on the programme after being contacted by viewers and the online Forum Mumsnet who were worried about it. The industry mostly targets young women with the promise of earning lots of money from the comfort of your own home. Heres a clip from our report last year explaining how it works. Firstly lets explain what multiLevel Marketing is. The Company Makes its own perfumes. Fictional amy is recruited by her Old School Friend karen tojoin her team. Amy joins by paying £100 for a starter kit. Karen makes company for recruiting amy. Amy makes money by selling perfume to her customers like her sister and her best friend. Karen gets a cut of those sales as well. Amy also builds a team, she makes money for recruiting her sister and every time jane sells perfume amy gets a cut of that. And then karen gets money from the recruitment of jane and her sales. The industry has thousands of passionate supporters. In a new bbc three documentary, ellie flynn goes undercover to investigate accusations that mlms are targeting vulnerable people, brainwashing them, and even conducting illegal pyramid selling. In a moment well speak to ellie and someone who lost £3,000 through an mlm. But first heres a clip from the documentary. Jessica left younique in 2018. Hi jessica, hi. Hello shes asked us to hide her identity. Can you explain a bit more about how it affected your relationships . Its 24 hours a day. You eat, sleep and breathe it. You know, they have this hashtag, team no sleep. But i was losing friends because of it, and, you know, my family were like, its a cult. I was like, no, its not, its not, you know. And they do training where, basically, what they tell you is, if someone doesnt support you, then you get rid of them. That doesnt matter if its your mum, your brother, your sister, your husband, yourfriend, you dont need that in your life. Me and my partner would argue constantly. I even nearly said to him. Well, i did say to him, like, why are you even marrying me . , you know. Some of them get really nasty and that as well, and i think thats why you get a little bit nervous about leaving, because they start calling you, like, names. Like fat and ugly, and theyll properly pull you apart. And they say, like, if you leave, that youve failed. How dare you. You could have made it, but you dont know because you quit. Joining us now is undercover journalist, ellie flynn, and lindsay chant, a student who worked for younique, one of these multi Level Marketing schemes, for three years. Thank you both for coming in. Three yea rs thank you both for coming in. Three years you worked for younique. Tell us about it. Within that group of friends that i was in, we trusted each other and she started selling younique at home and she said she was making £500 a month, and if she returned she could make that every week and she could make that every week and she was looking for people to join her team. At the time i wasnt sure how i was going to pay bills so i thought, if i work hard, and there is £500 a month, thats going to be quite useful. How much money did you put in and how difficult was it to start selling these products . put in and how difficult was it to start selling these products . I put in over three years about £3000. Give or take. It was actually really ha rd to give or take. It was actually really hard to sell anything because for the quality of the make up, its quite overpriced. In the area i live in people havent got that sort of money. £23 for a mascara. Thats high end. It is and its not a high end product. So you really, if its high end product, then you can justify £23. And its not high and you cannot justify it. Justify £23. And its not high and you cannotjustify it. Ellie, you found this was mostly women that are being targeted. Do you think thats a conscious decision, young women in particular . I think so. A conscious decision, young women in particular . Ithink so. Often a conscious decision, young women in particular . I think so. Often young mums because mums want to stay at home with the children, they want to contribute to the Family Finances and this presents a perfect opportunity, they say you can have Financial Freedom and time freedom, you can be at home with your children and earn extra income. Lindsay, you struggled to sell these products, but did you start to feel pressure, did you start by protect yourself so you could hit targets . Yes, you have a target, you had to have an income coming in so whether it was she that spend it in customer sales, around 125 over three months. A lot of that gets lost when you translate currencies and so often, in the uk, presenters feel they have to spend £125 every three months just to keep active. And they have to spend £125 every three monthsjust to keep active. And its generally a little bit less but its easier tojust say generally a little bit less but its easier to just say its £125 that i got to spend because we have to keep active and you have to have the latest product before they go on general sale to the public. So even if you havent sold the previous stock you have to buy new stock to get out . Ellie, some people when they watch a documentary may say this looks like a pyramid selling so whats the difference between and pyramid selling which is clearly illegal . MultiLevel Marketing is legal, pyramid selling is when you get most of your compensation from recruiting other people into the scheme. Lots of campaigners argue over this and claim lots of those companies are operating as a legal pyramid schemes because there was such a heavy emphasis on recruitment. Covers we got a statement from younique, they said the experience described is not accurately reflect that of of younique presenters around the world. We were funded to a blister, validate, empower and build self esteem in women around the world. Younique purposely built a Business Model to allow people to run businesses on their own terms, we support people well respecting their autonomy and right to run their autonomy and right to run their business their own way and we comply with the uk direct sellers associations code of contact. It talks about getting rid of negativity in your life, you said it almost resembles a cult at times . M basically is one. I went to and npower you event in 2016 and it was like being at a Justin Bieber npower you event in 2016 and it was like being at aJustin Bieber or 0ne direction concert the way people are reacting to the funder. I went to an empower you event. They are screaming like ten or 11 year olds, they are fully grown women acting like lovestruck teenagers, it is an atmosphere built within these events. Atmosphere built within these eve nts. Eve n atmosphere built within these events. Even the ones which are just personal training with some black status presenters, the first when i went to was not long after younique launched in the uk, probably only about six people earning black status, a black status presenters from the usa was coming over the two others and it was exactly the same. Cult status, people think it is quite a strong word . A player it came up quite a few times in the investigation, lots of people told me they felt brainwashed, you often encouraged to cut out any negative people from your life. Friends and family will often raise concerns about your likelihood of success, when you are told to cut them out and focus on the business and only ever speak positively about the company, i think it raises concerns. That is where the issue of brainwashing comes in . Yes, people said they were brainwashed into thinking the company was great and they would make money and they had to ignore anyone telling them otherwise. How difficult was it for you to leave . They make it quite difficult, you either let your account going to suspension and wait three months of it being suspended, then they terminate you, it takes three months of not selling anything and not buying anything to get to that point where you have not hit 125 for three months, then you had to wait another three. So giving up that way where you do not have to communicate with anyone takes six months to leave. The other way is e mail then, tell them you are leaving, they come back to you and they say you do realise he will not be able to sign up for six months and we might not allow you back into the company . Just reassure as you had a positive experience . It took me three e mails back and forth before they agreed to close my account down, because they would not take, iam account down, because they would not take, i am leaving, account down, because they would not take, iam leaving, i have account down, because they would not take, i am leaving, i have had enough, as an answer. Thank you for explaining your experiences, thank you ellie flynn and lindsay. And secrets of the multi level millionaires ellie undercover will be available on iplayer, to watch from 10am tomorrow. 20 years ago today the television presenterjill dando was murdered outside her home in fulham, west london. The 37 year old crimewatch host was shot once in the head, and later discovered by a neighbour. A local man, barry george, who had a history of stalking and sexual offences, was convicted of her murder two years later and sentenced to life imprisonment, but was acquitted in 2008 after forensics evidence was proved to be inaccurate. Jills murder is still unsolved. I spoke to her cousin judith, and she told me what sort of person jill was. Well, she was very kind. She was very considerate. She was very, very generous. She was very family orientated. Despite the fact that, you know, she was very busy. But she always found the time to spend time with us whenever we had sort of big family events. And she always was thinking of us. And tell us where you were and how you found out aboutjills death . Well, i was returning from having worked the winter in the french alps, actually. I was on my way back whenjill was actually killed. Very fortunately, i didnt switch the radio on. So i actually got all the way home to the west country before. I found out from my sisters who came to visit me as soon as i got home. You were close. I mean, you were going to be a bridesmaid at her wedding later in the year . I think you were just 18 months apart in age, so incredibly close. So for you to losejill, what effect has that had on your life . Well, the worst thing about it is that whenever Something Big in your life happened, so, for instance, jill wasnt there two or three months later when my daughter was christened, and jill was going to be a godmother. She wasnt there when i got married several years later. And she hasnt been there at all the big times in my life. So, she hasnt been around when my daughter graduated. So, yes, big events which ordinarily you would share and you celebrate together. And, of course, herwedding which was coming up quite soon after she was killed, and that was something that we were going to work on together in the run up to herwedding. Shed asked me if id help her arrange her wedding, because obviously, she was very busy, and she wanted me to maybe help with arranging the transport, to help with other stuff that she really couldnt do because she didnt have the time to do it. Im quite good on admin. So she thought that i would be great to come along and help her. Have you found over the course of these 20 years that your emotions have changed . Do you ever feel angry . I mean, youve talked about the things thatjill wasnt there for, all of those things. Those big things in your life and your familys life that she wasnt there for. Does that make you angry . No, it doesnt make me angry, it makes me feel very sad. Its a complete and utter waste, completely unnecessary. And. Its just. A waste of a very good persons life. So, no, its not anger, its sadness. Today is 20 years sincejills death. How are you going to be marking this anniversary . Well, i think today is all about looking forward and looking atjills legacy. And i wanted to be part of that contribution. And so im running the London Marathon on sunday, so im very much looking at that at the moment. Its only two days away. And i will be looking at how i can really celebrate jills legacy and make sure that shes top of mind for people that they remember her. And what a fabulous person that she was. And you were running for the British Heart Foundation, arent you, for a particular reason . Yes. Sojill had open heart surgery which saved her life when she was a toddler. She had numerous heart defects. And it was a charity that was really, really close to her heart. So i wanted to do the London Marathon for her sake. So this is me running onjills behalf to run in to raise money for the British Heart Foundation in her memory. Judith, thats wonderful, thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Take care. Thank you. Should children who have not had their mmr jab be banned from school . Well, nhs england is warning that parents who reject the measles vaccine are contributing to a serious and growing Public Health time bomb. And when the question was put directly to Health Secretary matt hancock he said he wouldnt rule out anything out. So badges the situation in italy that unvaccinated children are being excluded from schools there. So bad is the situation in italy. The number of measles cases almost quadrupled last year, and according to unicef, more than half a million children in the uk were not vaccinated against the highly contagious virus between 2010 and 2017. Ben wolfin is a dad of four children, the youngest aged four. Dr Caroline Dollery is a gp based in essex. Geoff barton is the general secretary of the association of school and College Leaders teachers union. Thank you all for speaking to us today. Doctor caroline, you must see in yourgp surgery today. Doctor caroline, you must see in your gp surgery all the time pa rents in your gp surgery all the time parents making decisions about whether they want to vaccinate their children or not . Do you think they should be for the vaccinating . In two vaccinating. No the prospective clinicians always take is informed consent. I suppose it is important parents understand the perils of not having your children vaccinated. There is a generational gap in understanding the consequences of needles, mumps and rubella infection. Measles, mumps and rubella. People have forgotten how bad they are. As a Junior Doctor many years back i saw children die from measles and mumps, i had seen children badly affected, brain damage through encephalitis and others. People think about these conditions being like chickenpox but they are much worse. You can understand why people get anxious about immunisations as well. The truth as it is important to allow people access to the right information and come to a good judgment. It is really important for people to understand a part a concept called her to immunity. Measles is a good example. For every case of measles, 90 people could contract measles from that one case and you spread that without any symptoms, so you do not develop the symptoms, so you do not develop the symptoms of measles and for three days you are spreading that disease. It is highly contagious. If you get 95 of the population vaccinated, you protect the unvaccinated population. As an example, newborn babies are really vulnerable to these conditions, because they cannot have the mmr. If you do not vaccinate your children you are contributing to severe illness and death of young babies. Equally the elderly and people on chemotherapy. We know if the vaccination rate drops below 95 , those people are the ones likely to suffer. Studio i wa nt to the ones likely to suffer. Studio i want to bring in ben and geoff barton. Ben, you are a father of four. I and a father of three. Revise apologies, i had given you an extra child my wife will be pleased your youngest is four, do you think parents should be told unvaccinated children cannot go to school . I have read on this and i agree with the union idea, youre punishing children for their pa re nts punishing children for their parents mistakes. Punishing children for their pa rents mistakes. That punishing children for their parents mistakes. That said, your medical colleague has very adequately and appropriately explained the situation. For me, it isa explained the situation. For me, it is a no brainer. 0bviously explained the situation. For me, it is a no brainer. Obviously i have read things on the internets and made an informed decision by listening to health professionals, medical experts. Ijust think listening to health professionals, medical experts. I just think that what is more important is that people stop spreading their internet nonsense. Wakefield has been massively discredited, i agree with james obrien, there are no two sites, there is only one side, science. I will not risk my children, all three of them, they are 11, seven and four, i will not risk them to three extraordinarily dangerous conditions. You talk about andrew wakefield, whose views were discredited. Geoff barton, from a teachers perspective. When my children started school i got an information sheet asking if they had been vaccinated, so a school could practically enforce if the government decided to exclude unvaccinated children from school . It is only a matter of weeks since i was here because her teachers were being accused of excluding too many people, now the Health Secretary himself says some young people should not be in school, so there will be irritation from school leaders. But if we can learn from best international practice, we are not saying young people in school will be sent home at six because they have not been vaccinated, which would be risky and foolish, if we are saying there has to be registration to incentivise parents, it has to be about education and something incentivising parents, i think we would support this. How do you incentivise . A bloke we had to learn from italy and france, one colleague of mine said that when she put her child into a ski resort crash in france she had to prove they had been vaccinated. The off the cuff remark from yesterday has opened up and important issue that we need evidence of how this would work in practice, the main responsibility is to keep all children safe and not have children at home in more risk than if they we re at home in more risk than if they were at school. 0ne were at school. One person on twitter says an unvaccinated child can carry the virus when they visit others they can spread it. We should not allow holes in the vaccination barrier because of ignorance. Anon on text in france a child has to be vaccinated to attend any group activity. This includes colony holidays and creche. The establishment needs to see the Health Certificate for vaccinations every year. My three children went to school there. Nessie on twitter my two children had jabs singularly at great cost over 16 years ago. Why are these not available on nhs to worried parents . It is all about the cost, dont blame parents. Doctor caroline collie, we have heard about individual vaccines if people are concerned about the vaccines together. Is it about answering questions of parents who are fearful . Single vaccinations are not as effective as the mmr, there is a huge amount of evidence on that. The reason is that the combined vaccine protected better against the mumps virus, any single vaccine it only gives you 60 to 90 protection, two doses of mmr bring you up to pretty much 100 . Always have the mmr, not single vaccinations. It is really important to educate and inform. I was ina important to educate and inform. I was in a travellers capturing the wakefield time, i stayed there for three days and everybody was vaccinated, that is because they could drop in and have a chat. They had the same anxieties as any middle class patient between succeeded in vaccinating everyone and they had no more measles. The other camp had devastating consequences, deaths. From the schools perspective, having people within the school to act as a facilitator, a professional scientist, to explain and interpret the information. Is that realistic, geoff, to have somebody in your school that if parents are concerned about vaccinations they can have a chat . It is uncharted territory at a time when we are saying we do not have money for teachers and teaching assistants, to have another member of staff. This is not about whether vaccination is good, we think that it is. How to encourage the sense of education around it and what happens if a child comes to school who has not been vaccinated. That is a really big issue. It might be there should bea big issue. It might be there should be a memberof big issue. It might be there should be a member of staff, to me that seems potential overkill, but lets look at the evidence that we can do something in the interest of the child. Ben, did you have these conversations between parents at school, is it discussed . Sorry, yes . I wondered if parents even talk about whether children have been vaccinated . No, i think it is about whether children have been vaccinated . No, ithink it is a com plete vaccinated . No, ithink it is a complete and at a no brainer. I am baffled, i have looked at some of the anti vax comments, i lump them in with a flat earthers. It seems to be based on discredited nonsense and it isa be based on discredited nonsense and it is a no brainer. As your medical expert pointed out, there has been a generation who has not experienced this. People think it is quite light touch, it is not. Mmr, measles, mumps, rubella, they are very serious if, for example. For pregnant women and children. I must confess, i had not had a conversation about this. Thank you for your time, we were up against it but i appreciated. Also thank you to doctor Caroline Dollery and geoff barton. The mother of a teenage boy who was filmed being repeatedly hit by a Police Office has exclusively told this programme she is appalled at the Violent Arrest of her son. The 17 year old had been stopped and searched with another teen in romford in east london on monday when its said he struggled and was detained. A member of the public filmed what happened and shared it on social media and the contents shocked many. We are going to play you a short extract now. A warning, some people may find this distressing. What the bleep, man . bleep. What the bleep . bleep. Iama i am a child this is illegal you cant do this somebody dial 199. You cantjust hit him like that. Hes slapping me with a stick. No, no, no. Somebody, please record this, please. Oh, my god. Bleep. The 17 year old was found in possession of class b drugs and was arrested. The metropolitan police says it expects the highest standards from all of its officers, and appropriate action will be taken if these standards are not met, adding that the footage is being reviewed. Well, joining us now is former deputy mayor of london lee jasper. He is representing the teenagers family and has started a petition calling for the metropolitan police to suspend the officer responsible. Also here is tele lawal Labour Party Councillor on the london borough of havering council. Leejasperyou i know you met with the teenagers family last night, lee jasper. I know you met with the teenagers family last night, leejasper. His mother said i am appalled at the circumstances following the recent Violent Arrest by metropolitan Police Officer. As a family we are traumatised on the community to support our call for the immediate suspension of the Police Officer and an independent Mayoral Election scrutinised by a Community Reference panel panel. We are consulting lawyers about where we go next. We are enormously grateful for the huge amount of support received since the publication of the video. What did the family to you . They are in a state of shock, trying to make sense of what happened and understand their Legal Options to getjustice for what they see as a very egregious, violent and necessary, disproportionately violent, arrest ofa disproportionately violent, arrest of a young boy for a very small amount of cannabis. The difficulty here is we do not see what happened prior to the handcuffs being put on, we know the metropolitan police says two teenagers were stopped and searched. The second one ran off, the metropolitan police claim that when an officer found the 14 year old the officer was assaulted, so it is difficult to know, tele lawal, what happened in the run up . Know, tele lawal, what happened in the runup . That is why i welcome the runup . That is why i welcome the investigation, we will be able to find out what happened to lead up to find out what happened to lead up to that incident, that is why we are so to that incident, that is why we are so happy the investigation is being conducted, but we also want that done by community members, local stakeholders, people who can scrutinise what the police say so that we can say, ok, this is reasonable, necessary force. This was a plainclothes Police Officer, is it normal they would not have body cams . They are supposed to wear them, not all offending. The question to the police is why werent you wearing one . They are supposed to wear them, not all of them do. This case is similar to rodney king, that is the extent to which people are upset and angry at what they see as a continuing trend of disproportionate Violent Arrests of disproportionate Violent Arrests of young black people. In your mind it is to do with race . In relation to the disproportionate number of black young men and women routinely stopped. This specific incident . In my opinion, lots of people had jumped to race, to so many assumptions, lets have the investigation. We know we do not live in a Perfect Society with no racial tension, there has been continuous breakdown of ethnic minorities, we talked about it today, how ethnic minorities do not trust police because of what has happened for years. We cannot say they are wrong for assuming it is due to race, but lets see the investigation, how young blackmail. To search more than their counterparts. To search more than their counterparts. How young black men are stopped and searched more than their counterparts. We had seen reviews and the statistics. We cannot say people are wrong for assuming that but we cannot say the Police Officer is racist, we have no evidence to prove that yet, but nobody can tell people who have that opinion that they are wrong, they are opinion that they are wrong, they a re allowed opinion that they are wrong, they are allowed that opinion, but lets have all the facts on the table. We are always exhorted to treat these incidents in isolation, but looking at it over 40 years there is a routine that the institutional working culture of the met produces this outcome. Research shows they use disproportionate. In the arrest of black people, they disproportionately charge black first time offenders for crimes which way white first time offenders are cautioned for. So we can see this as a discriminatory operation, or policing process, so i think it is reasonable to conclude that was a factor in this case. The family believe that to be the case. The metropolitan police save that an investigation is being carried out. The mp5 investigation is being carried out. The mps expects the highest standards and these have not been met. Appropriate action will be taken. We await the result of the review to establish the full circumstances. Here are some messages on twitter. Stephen says before be plain police by giving theirjob can be please present the story and a balanced way . Has the reason for the officer during his baton been asked . Robbie and twitter says i hope the met is throwing the book at that pc and will kick him out of the police post. We may never know what happened before. Witness evidence to that effect, we have that. They will be deployed in relation to giving evidence to what happened. The public do not know but the family knows and those who witnessed the event no. I think what Everyone Needs to highlight is put yourself in that position. If a young boy is perfect and saying, please stop, please stop, stop. Simple. Ithink the bigger thing to look at its reasonable force, necessary. It is open so wide. You can say he should be suspended but it could happen again, we need to review how they use. Is how they use a baton weapon to ensure a suspect is naturally store does not on the Police Officer. We are out of time, banking so much, thank you for taking time to speak to us. Thank you so much. Bbc newsroom live is coming up next. Thank you for your company today. That morning. It has been a rather bright start for many, lots of sunshine. Has increased from the west, with its outbreaks of rain moving from parts of wales and western areas. It will continue to spread eastward, this showery band of rain, into scotland and Northern Ireland. The best of any sunshine will continue across the north of scotla nd will continue across the north of scotland and eastern england, maximum temperature getting up to about 13 to 16, perhaps 17 degrees. Towards the west we have a storm brewing, this will move in through tonight and into the early hours of the morning, storm hannah. The isobars are close together across wales and the south west of england. 60 to 70 mph gusts. Strong winds on saturday with gales across southern and central areas of england. Gusty winds continue into the afternoon, they will ease slightly, a rather disappointing day with lots of cloud, outbreaks of rain and much colder compared to recently, temperatures about nine to 13 degrees. Goodbye. Youre watching bbc newsroom live its 11 am and these are the main stories this Morning Police in Northern Ireland release new footage of the man they suspect is behind the murder of the journalist, lyra mckee in londonderry. Debenhams names 22 of the 50 stores it plans to close at the start of next year putting 1,200 jobs at risk. 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