it's time for hardtalk. you sound very unsympathetic, as though these are recalcitrant youth somehow. welcome to hardtalk the protests in december last year — were very dire, there was rampant with me, zeinab badawi. inflation, widespread unemployment, events have moved at breathtaking a report by the institute of international finance on april 10 speed in sudan in the past few days. shows that sudan continues to struggle with its omar al—bashir is no longer balance of payments. you know, the situation was dire, president and is under arrest. these were notjust naughty young a new military—lead council people as you seem to suggest. is running the country and says it will stay in place for two years. but the african union is demanding handover to a transitional civilian administration in days. no. and the protesters say they won't give up until that happens. no, they are not. the demonstrations have been led by young professionals who have made it clear they want to sever but the way you are formulating links with sudan's military the questions is a problem. and islamist past. my guest is ghazi salahuddin sorry to say that. you put them in a very atabani, the chairman confrontational way, a situation that is confrontational. of an opposition grouping reform now. mostly confrontational. until 2013 he was a key advisor of president bashirfor a quarter i'm just being critical. critical of myself and certain people within the nation. of a century and was so i don't consider them associated with leadership to be naughty children, i think they deserve our sympathy, of the islamist wing cooperation and guidance in bashir‘s governing party. so, are politicians if they wish to have those things. like him now irrelevant? my three sons participated in the demonstrations and have been for the last few weeks, this applies to many people within the system. so i don't think the problem is one of the military or denouncing their behaviour. that was the implication ghazi salahuddin atabani in khartoum, welcome to hardtalk. of what you were saying. one very clear outcome of these protests and revolution that was the implication is that the old guard of what you, the tone such as yourself are now in which you gave your answer. politically irrelevant. yeah, well, i'm sorry, then. isn't that right? us being circulating amongst the political class in general, you put it sometimes in a way that one can't avoid answering if coming but i don't think it's true. from a different point of view, but i'm definitely sympathetic. i think we have a growing all right. let's take a look at the wider coming up generation which is becoming relevant everyday to our politics. but we still have the old guard rule, we still count. picture in sudan, notjust why do you still count? because i'll tell you something that one of the generals said at a televised news conference on the 12th of april the urban protest. there is a lot of instability that mr bashir‘s national congress party would be excluded from talks because it was responsible in regions of sudan, for what happened. that is true, and you were once a member of the ncp, darfur, blue nile, so that means people don't and a former south sudan diplomat does make sudan, want you in the picture. said that a quick hand over might lead to a fight using these people, let people decide. the uncertainty to pursue secession, is that a danger in your view? that's what we say. it is and has always been. we maintain our relevance it has been set aside, in different walks of life it has been ignored for some time because of problems in other parts and that's why we are of the country were more pressing. asked our opinion. that was wrong. we hear news coming from those and sometimes, we form coalitions areas, pointing to the fact they are ready to splinter off which are really effective from mainland sudan, in sudanese politics. which is troubling to us and agonising and at a time when everyone seems to be maybe we are doing at the old way preoccupied with what's happening but i think we still in the capital here. get good results. i'll come on to what you are now offering the sudanese, but i have to ask you about your own credibility at the moment. because you have been tainted by association with president bashir. you were cabinet minister, a key advisor, the ultimate insider. you even lead the ruling national congress party in parliament. are you not too linked to that? all right. well, happening in the capital we understand that is where the former president is bashir being held. he's somebody you got well, i am quite clear to know over many years, how do you think you'll be reacting to all this and his house arrest about my position. and talk of him being tried and i think i had to reach a certain tipping point before i left the ncp. before that, i thought i would be doing better if i try to reform from within the party. in the sudan, perhaps under that's something which many politicians have done around the world, and the fact that i haven't succeeded, did not mean that i was wrong in my choice. i don't feel that i have international supervision, how do you think he'll be to apologise for what i have done. responding or feeling? he has done a lot of injustice i'm still trying my best to the country and to his own people and in a way i'm producing results. and he should ? he should be held accountable for that and if he can but these are troubled times be tried, that should also take in sudan and they're not anything place according to normal procedure. tojudge by. but i think about what we should focus on is the way he conducted we're waiting for the outcome the country and he managed of these protests, the results might the country, which was completely — look shocking to some i get the impression he was completely out of his depth. people as well. he had been advised several times and i don't think we should rush by people several times by people. i had written him a memoranda to condemn those who are behind the present situation protests. of initiatives but he didn't seem to care. i don't think he had a real grasp of the situation he was facing nobody is rushing to condemn and hejust messed it up. the protesters, one thing that they have said consistently, particularly the sudan professional just messed it up. ghazi salahuddin atabani association, the young professionals behind the protests, is that they want to re—secularise the sudan. can i ask you whether you are still sticking to your political islamist views? in khartoum, thank you very much because you were very much from that wing of the ruling ncp when you were with them up until 2013. do you still want indeed for coming on hardtalk. political islamism ? the fact is, way back, even before this race and the protest took place, there was a kind of revisionist islamist groups hello there, good morning. sprouting around the country, as expected, tuesday was a cloudy day for many of us. who demanded a new definition rain and drizzle around as well. and this was the scene, actually, of religion, and it's wrong, in the north—west of england and i think that's still valid. where it was quite a bit cooler thanks to that rain and drizzle we don't want to fall and low cloud. in the trap of these dualisms, islamism, secularism, capitalism, socialism, etc. but we had a taste of things they are things of the past. to come in cornwall. the sun was out and it was a good so to start with, i don't deal warmer as well. like to characterise our thinking and we're going to find more sunshine more widely and introspection or internal as we into the easter weekend. and as a result it will be dialogue as one between turning warmer everywhere. now, still some cloud on the scene. islamists and secularists. this cloud is heading i think we have passed that stage. towards iberia to bring some cooler, wetter weather. do you really think this cloud brought the rain you have passed that stage? and drizzle earlier on. because one thing that's striking that it is tending to about these protests peter out all the while. is the role of women. it's a little bit damp across western scotland. further south, clearing skies means you've even got one young woman, some mist and fog forming in wales, the midlands, and parts who has become the symbol, of southern england. that will take a little the iconic symbol of the revolution. while to clear away in the morning. the drizzle won't last long in western scotland. the cloud breaks, the sunshine develops more widely. you've seen the young unmarried but we could bubble up a bit women going about the streets, of cloud from east anglia right in the vanguard towards the pennines and maybe squeeze out an isolated late shower. of this protest and yet, 0n the whole, it's a dry and a warm afternoon, with temperatures getting up to 19 under 30 years of president bashir‘s or 20 and the south—east of england. rule, we saw that the rights the only downside with this warmth and sunshine — of women deteriorated significantly during that time. high pollen levels across england and you were part of it, and wales in particular. but as we head into the evening and overnight, we've got to watch until five or six years ago. out towards the east to see some mist and low cloud coming in off the north sea. well, i think "deteriorated" that will push its way further inland across northern areas. is not a fair description so a bit misty and murky in the hills and chilly around because on the other some rural areas. those are the temperatures side you can see a different role for women. in parliament, for instance, in towns and cities. in public service, as professionals, everything. you find them everywhere you go. it will, however, get warmer as we head towards easter. really warming up, actually, and they are certainly much more across central europe. and this is where our air liberated than they used to be is going to be coming from, in the past. hence those rising temperatures so it's unfair to draw a conclusion. on that south—easterly breeze. there will be some mist and cloud around to begin with on thursday. there still are problems relating that cloud tending to break up. sunshine developing quite widely. south—easterly breezes. to the role of women in society, still a little bit cooler around that's something to be recognised. some of those north sea coasts, eastern scotland, northeast england. but otherwise temperatures but the situation of are continuing to rise, women is getting better. definitely, if you compare it 20 or 21 is quite likely on thursday. friday, hardly a cloud in the sky. to 30, 40, 50 years back. a beautiful day, good friday. we'll see lots of sunshine. it's definitely better. it was dame rosalind marsden, former british ambassador to the sudan and also then after, special eu envoy for sudan who said that women's rights had deteriorated significantly during 30 years of president bashir‘s rule. but she's also said now that the scale of female participation is unprecedented. this light south to south—easterly sudanese women have become aware breeze putting that warmth of their power and their role northwards. so 21 or 22 through as agents of change. the central belt of scotland. 22 or 23 from london whatever happens now, through the midlands to the north—west of england. nothing is going to go back to how this is a flavour of what's to come it was before. over the easter weekend. you can't turn the peak of the heat likely clock back, can you? to be on saturday. northern areas turn more cloudy. i don't see why we should cut back seeing some rain, particularly on sunday. the southeast still dry on their gains and achievements. with some sunshine. if you come and see the streets of sudan, our attention on certain issues relating to the heavier public freedoms, social freedoms issues, like we have a many other countries. but in essence, the movement of women and their achievements are forward—looking. ok, but on this issue, of the nature of the protests. your generation's very out of touch, isn't it? this is a very, very young revolution, my understanding is that when you, yourself, wanted tojoin the protest, you were prevented from getting out of your car. because people didn't want you to jump on their bandwagon. no, that's not true. that is absolutely not true. i was in the street, i was faced with the revolutionaries they demanded that i make the victory sign, i did the salute, and i passed on. i was not stopped by anyone. these are interpretations put on the true story. and i'm here, i came all the way from my house to the studio without having been attacked or pushed and shoved by anyone. i live my life as i did before this protest took place. general abdel fattah abdelrahman burhan is now the leader of the transitional military council. he has invited, as he says, all spectrums of sudanese people for dialogue. have you been invited? if they make the invitation and they send invitations, they would send us one, because we are a registered party by law and according to the constitution which is still valid, and so we have legitimacy to be invited to these official events. so the protesters are calling for a civilian led transitional government now, perhaps just limited representation. the african union is given the military counciljust about two weeks to hand over to a civilian administration. what is the likelihood of that happening? in past experiences, the african union, the period this is the briefing. required within which they should take action and have elections, i'm sally bundock. we have seen this in our top story: president macron tells france other parts of africa. the notre—dame can be rebuilt within five years as donors pledge i don't think the country of sudan almost a billion dollars for the task. would be much affected by this voting's coming to a close in indonesia's elections, which saw old rivals find decision if it were in the right past or officially launch a dialogue a new role for religion. reinstituting democracy in sudan. nearly 300 climate change activists have been arrested after blocking roads in central london for a second day. in past experience, being cut off managing expectations — by the african union for 15 days netflix posts healthy subscriber did not prevent the growth that's better than expected, country from surviving. so why are its shares falling? other countries, in that case. and one can quote a number of them. there are countries which want to see sudan succeed. the united kingdom for instance, the british foreign secretaryjeremy hunt has treated that we need to see a swift move to an inclusive representative civilian leadership. uk is pledging to help sudan write off its 50—odd billion dollars of external debt and so on. sudan needs friends like that at this critical time. it should hear what they are saying, no? absolutely. i completely agree with you and i think the uk is making the right decision and taking the right position in the respect. ultimately, we have to reach a conclusion, the sudanese will have to reach a conclusion of resolving our differences. but you see, having said that, the fact of the matter is, the last years since sudan signed the peace agreement, it hasn't been redeemed. it hasn't been rewarded adequately for the sacrifice it has made. so, most of the blame falls on the shoulders of other countries who have promised a lot and delivered very little. there's going to be a new situation in the sudan now so i suppose we'll have to see how much the community will extend. let's go back to what's going on now. let me tell you what the veteran sudan expert alex duvall says. he says, there is no centre of power with which to negotiate. that the power struggle within the security cabal that took power isjust beginning. bashir had kept the rivalries and ambitions in check, his removal brings in its wake, unregulated uncertainty. which faction in the security services, in the army, in the intelligence services is dominant at the moment? because there seemed to be several competing centres of power, as alex duvall suggests there. the prime force in sudan is the army. where the army takes sides, that side wins. this has been thriving in the past and has succeeded in ‘64 and ‘85 when we had similar revolutions, slightly similar. 30 years have passed and a lot of changes have taken place within those institutions in particular. because of the war that was raging in the south and other things, this tended to shape our lives in sudan. it very much affected us by military activity, and military confrontations in the south and other parts of the country. we need to get rid of that. the idea behind the compliance agreement as well is to get rid of that and have normal political life. that's what i call the solution. now, we have tried that over the last 30 years and i don't have any guarantees or indications that it would succeed now, and that's why the situation is very precarious in my view. it's changing all the time, and i tend to agree with duvall on the question of the vulnerability of the political system and also the fact that it's changing in a way that no—one can predict the final outcome. so, i mean, what will happen then? do you think that there will be a transitional government which will be civillian—lead? or do you think that the army will stay in power? we hear various statements coming from them, you know, generals saying military leaders are not hungry for power, generals will be the protectors of the people. what exactly does that mean? are they going to quit the scene and allow the civilians to take over, as the protesters are demanding? anything can happen. i just would like to say that there seems to be no mentality, no method to this madness so far. i can't predict what will happen tomorrow, all i know is that the politics we are practising today and the last five days is unorthodox, is unconventional, and therefore you cannot draw conclusions. people are panicking around the country believing that life might change to something completely different. so there is this kind of panic, you know, in the country, which no—one has any means to address. what do you mean panic? all we see — i don't know what you mean by panic. all we see is in khartoum and other cities in the sudan are young people, older people rejoicing that they have seen the end of a 30 year dictatorship and what they hope will be the end of army rule, it doesn't seem like panic. it seems like euphoria. it's euphoria in parts, it's panic in other parts. what i'm saying is i'm seeing a division in the society. those past a certain age feel threatened and that is very natural for them. it could affect their status in life et cetera. the young are, you know, looking forward to a different life from the one they are living and did in the past 20—30 years. there is a clear generational gap here. one that can be identified easily, and is expressing itself 00:18:10,994 --> 2147483051:45:50,212 through certain phenomena 2147483051:45:50,212 --> 4294966103:13:29,430 and statements by these protesters.

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