to her when she was held at yarl‘s wood detention centre. it's just mental torture. it's so depressing. it's just so hard. twice she's avoided deportation — but now she's been told she has to leave and she's talking exclusively to us about it. and an exclusive first interview with the new head of the rspca. chris sherwood today calls for animal welfare to be taught in schools because the charity recevies 5000 incidents on animal cruelty online each year — like these images on snapchat and youtube. —— because the charity receives. what do you think of the idea? we'll talk to the new rscpa boss after ten. hello. welcome to the programme. we're live until 11 this morning. do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about — use the hashtag victorialive. we will bring you the details of how universal credit roll—out is going to be delayed again, so contact us on that. if you're emailing and are happy for us to contact you — and maybe want to take part in the programme — please include your phone number in your message. if you text, you'll be charged at the standard network rate. our top story this morning: leaked documents seen by the bbc reveal that ministers have bowed to pressure and are planning to further delay the roll—out of their flagship welfare reform, universal credit. the new system merges six benefits into one payment and has been plagued by problems. it's massively overspent and will be at least six years late. the leaked papers also contain proposals to spend hundreds of millions of pounds to try to prevent claimants suffering hardship when they move onto it. the government said it always intended to introduce the benefit slowly. here's our social affairs correspondent, michael buchanan. it was meant to make things easier, bringing six different benefits into one monthly payment, but the roll—out of universal credit is already years behind schedule, and now we've learned it's going to be further delayed. the next step, moving up to four million benefit recipients onto universal credit, won't now properly start until november, 2020, more than a year later than planned. in the commons yesterday, the secretary of state hinted at such a delay. it won't be starting in january in 2019. it will be later on in the year, and then for a further year, with a small amount of people, maybe 10,000 people, we will be learning as we go to make sure it is right, and then it will increase in the roll—out from 2020 onwards. leaked documents we've seen suggest that ministers want to use the delay to make significant changes to universal credit, amid evidence that the use of food banks increases when the benefit is introduced in an area. the dwp hope to continue paying some benefits to claimants for an extra fortnight — most existing benefits are currently stopped when someone applies for universal credit — reduce the maximum reductions that can be taken from a universal credit payment, and make it easier for self—employed people to receive the new benefit. paying for the changes, which would cost hundreds of millions of pounds, still needs to be approved by the treasury. the problem we have is that it's the coming together of a big benefit change, with large welfare cuts at the same time, that is making this toxic. the government should, as a priority, both improve the operation of universal credit but also reverse some of those cuts that are making the political roll—out of this benefit so difficult. but tentative plans to also continue paying child tax credits for a fortnight, crucial to single parents in particular, have seemingly been scrapped because they were deemed undeliverable because of the way universal credit operates. the department for work and pensions said it didn't comment on leaks. michael buchanan, bbc news. joanna is in the bbc newsroom with a summary of the rest of the day's news. theresa may will try to rally ministers behind her this morning at the start of a critical 48 hours for brexit. the prime minister is about to brief her cabinet on the deadlock in negotiations. senior ministers voiced concerns about her proposals during a meeting over pizza last night. here's our political correspondent nick eardley. how to guarantee no hard border in ireland after brexit? still the key stumbling block to a deal with europe. the prime minister is offering an insurance policy which could see the uk follow europe's customs rules for a period. theresa may's playing down the idea that could end up being a long—term arrangement, but some want guarantees there would be a strict time limit. the brexit secretary, dominic raab, and the foreign secretary, jeremy hunt, were among eight ministers who met last night over pizza. they discussed the need for an end date to a customs deal, an issue that's likely to come up again this morning at the cabinet table. the stakes are high. the pm will be hoping she can maintain a sense of unity in government today because, tomorrow, an even bigger challenge as she heads to brussels to try and persuade other european leaders a breakthrough is possible. nick eardley, bbc news. the government will have to find an extra £19 billion a year if it is to uphold theresa may's promise that "austerity is over," according to the institute for fiscal studies' pre—budget report. the economic research institute also says chancellor philip hammond will face increasing borrowing and taxes, as the pledges to raise nhs spending and balance the books by 2020 are incompatible. president trump has said he is aware of unconfirmed reports that saudi arabia is preparing to say that the missing journalist jamal khashoggi died during an unauthorised interrogation at its consulate in turkey. 0fficials investigating the disappearance of the prominent saudi critic have been searching the building in istanbul. the us secretary of state mike pompeo has arrived in saudi arabia for a meeting with the country's leadership. offences motivated by prejudice against men could become hate crimes as part of a government review. figures released today are expected to show a spike in hate crime in england and wales. ministers say they want to make sure all vulnerable groups are protected in court, and are also looking to include misogyny and ageism. facebook has brought in new rules for political advertising on the social network in the uk. from now on anyone running a political advert will have to prove their identity, and say who has paid for it. this system is already in operation in the united states and brazil. britain's busiest railway stations have seen over half of all train services delayed by a minute or more this year, according to research by the consumer group which. manchester oxford road station was the least punctual with two third of services delayed. york, gatwick airport and birmingham new street were also among stations that experienced plenty of delays, with 40% of trains arriving on time. the co—founder of microsoft, paul allen, has died. he was 65 and had blood cancer. he persuaded his childhood friend bill gates to drop out of harvard to start the computer giant in 1975. mr gates said he was heartbroken at the loss of one of his oldest and dearest friends. the consumer group which says parents should stop using one of three market—leading child stair gates after it failed the firm's safety tests. which tested ten gates, to see how they would withstand being pulled by a child. it says the dream baby gate should be immediately recalled. dream baby said complaints about its products are rare but are investigated immediately. the duke and duchess of sussex have been on their first public outing since it was revealed that they are due to become parents. the couple are in australia for their first overseas tour and have already been given their first baby presents. they were handed a toy kangaroo and a pair of booties as they met australia's governor—general. they will also visit new zealand, fiji and tonga on their 16—day trip. from milk bottle tops to sticky back plastic, blue peter is the world's longest running children's television programme. today it celebrates its 60th birthday. it's been a fixture in the lives of youngsters, and their parents, since 1958. and while everyone has their favourite presenter, it's the animals that were more often than not the stars of the show. here's one we made earlier. hello there. hello. hello! welcome to live blue peter. i think this the first time i've shampooed a camel. hold on to that. 0h, get off my foot! that was a very scary moment. i'll tell you now... and here it is — tracy island. your very own blue peter silver badge. this might be the proudest day of my life. that is fantastic. here is your very own gold blue peter badge. it is the best day of my life. whoa! that is wicked! woohoo—hoo! 0h, whoa! i'm abseiling off blackpool tower. i'm ready to skydive. the memories! that's a summary of the latest bbc news. more at 9.30am. we will bring you the story about universal credit with our social affairs editor michael buchanan, he has the documents would show the whole thing will be delayed for another nine months or so. alan has e—mailed, i was put onto universal credit four months ago and have lost £400 a month from my benefits, and there is nothing i can do to get this back, i don't think that the government cares. we will talk more about it, and your experiences, we know it is a huge issue. we will also talk about brexit in the next hour and bring you the sport in the next few minutes. but before that... a 28—year—old botswanan woman who's lived in the uk since the age of 13 has had her application to stay in britain rejected by the home office. 0pelo kgari went to school here and has lived in britain for 15 years. she's here speaking to us exclusively this morning for the first time since she was released from an immigration detention centre — yarl‘s wood in bedford — where people are sent before being deported. you might remember we spoke to her and her mum florence earlier this year when they were both detained at yarl‘s wood. they've narrowly avoided deportation on two occasions. miss kgari was put in a van?to heathrow to be placed?on a flight to botswana, from where they'd fled her violent father. ?she was told?she couldn't meet anyone to say goodbye. this is what miss kgari and her mum told us from yarl‘s wood back in april, where by that stage they'd been held there for 11 weeks. it's so sad, victoria, really sad, and i can't really explain. it's mental torture. it's so depressing. it's just so hard. can you describe the inside of the centre? because most people will have no idea. to be honest with you, it's a place where you can never wish not even your worst enemy to be in this situation at all. it's mentally torturing and depressing. depressing and, you know... when you are uncertain of your future, it is so sad. that was 0pelo's mum florence. let's talk to 0pelo kgari and her lawyer bahar ata. thank you very much for coming on the programme. you have finally been told you have to leave the uk. what's your reaction? i'm just i'mjust ina i'm just in a state of shock, really. i don't understand why i'm having to go through this. but we're just hoping that we'lljust kind of keep going and fighting and hoping that we will see an to this. how were you told the news? we had a letter, i was with my solicitor and my mum a few days ago, when my solicitor told is that the application we have made had been refused and we were hoping to go through appeal and go to court and see that through. how have you been since we last spoke, when you were in the detention centre at yarl‘s wood? it's been quite difficult, but it has been really good to get back to familiarity and being in a place i know and love and surrounded by people that i do know and have been with me over the last few years, and supporting me, but it is also really difficult knowing that this is an ongoing situation which lingers over me, and my life is ata ongoing situation which lingers over me, and my life is at a standstill right now. it is really difficult, but i have to keep going, really. you live in stoke with your mum, are you able to work? no, while going through this process we are not allowed to work, i am not allowed to study or do anything really that allows me to carry on with life or do anything, really. in terms of studying, this 0lly emerged when you applied the university, when an issue with the geysers emerge? —— this all emerged when you applied for university, when you applied for university, when an issue with the visas emerge. yes, i was an international students, i had never realised that was the case. we had to get our visas read on, it has been an ongoing process since then and trying to get out of it, really. that is in 2010. eight years, this has been going on. does it feel like your life is on hold? it really does. i have just celebrated my birthday. being as old asiam, i celebrated my birthday. being as old as i am, ifeel celebrated my birthday. being as old as i am, i feel like celebrated my birthday. being as old as i am, ifeel like i should have done so much with my life by now, andi done so much with my life by now, and i haven't. iam just done so much with my life by now, and i haven't. i am just waiting and hoping that a decision will be made that will allow me to get so much stuff done and actually catch up. because your friends have been to universities, got jobs? yes, lots of them are on to five—year career plans and getting married and having kids and i am just kind of like, well, what about me? can you explain to the audience what your argument is for staying in britain? as it stands, i... i have a genuine fearfor going back home britain? as it stands, i... i have a genuine fear for going back home to botswa na. genuine fear for going back home to botswana. i have been here for such a long time and have such deep roots here in the uk, and i have people around me who want to carry on being in my life. but should i be deported, i will not have that support system and i don't think i can even fathom how life will even be. yeah. and what is your fear about botswana ? be. yeah. and what is your fear about botswana? my fear, really, is that... well, i have got a really violent father and he is extremely abusive and could... end life for us, really. but knowing that we are here and able to carry on means that we can have a life, and a life that is full. and your mother's case is different to yours? my mum has got a... she is currently going through an asylum claim. wide as she argues she needs to stay here? —— wide as she argue that she needs to stay here? she wa nts to that she needs to stay here? she wants to be here as my mum and the family unit, knowing we will be safe and have a full life here. she will not be able to have a full life if she and! not be able to have a full life if she and i were to be deported back to botswana, and that is our fight, really. i also want to highlight the injustices that the home office are casually sweeping under the rug am not doing anything about. what is the injustice in your case, that you feel british and have lived here for a long time and should be able to stay? having lived in the uk for such a long time and having gone through the education system, i feel that i am part of this country. it has moulded me into the person that iam has moulded me into the person that i am today and i want to be able to give back everything i have learned into this country that i cant and consider as home, but i am not being allowed to do that currently and it is really difficult. this is your home? would you say you feel more british? yes. let me bring in your lawyer, thank you for talking to us. let me tell you what the home office has said, the uk has a proud history of granting asylum to those needing our protection. when someone is found not to need our protection we expect them to leave the country voluntarily. where they do not, we will seek to enforce their removal. how do you respond to that? in principle, yes, that is correct, those not entitled to protection would be required to leave. but in this circumstance the home office needs to know all the circumstances of the case before requiring someone to leave the uk. on that point, they say that originally 0pelo kgari was scheduled to be deported in march this year, then she was detained, following the submission of new evidence which was not included in the original application the decision was taken to cancel the removal flight to ensure time was available to fully consider the case. further submissions were refused following careful consideration, so they would argue they have diligently looked at the case. i disagree, we are currently pursuing an appeal in the case of 0pelo and her mother. the removal for 0pelo and her mother was cancelled because we managed to get an injunction against the mother's removal and in effect the home office then made a decision that they were going to remove the mother and daughter together and subsequently cancelled 0pelo 's removal. what arguments will you use an appealing this decision? i can't really discuss the appeal, it is that really early stages this dumbl it is that really early stages this dumb i grabbed the moment. does that mean you don't know? -- i can't really discuss the appeal, it is at the really early stages at the moment. suffice to say, 0pelo has a very strong claim under article eight of the european convention of human rights, having lived in this country for the majority of this... her life. what is article eight about? the right to private and family life. she has been in the uk since she was a child, lived here most her life. ample evidence was provided with the application to the home office. and having seen the refusal letter and gone through it very carefully with 0pelo, the evidence was not properly considered. 0pelo, i understand you have been diagnosed with depression, partly as a result of this being in limbo? yes. i had a clinical psychologist seamy just after we were released from yarl‘s wood and we had quite a long sits down together, and she said that i am showing signs of depression. it has been really difficult just to depression. it has been really difficultjust to do life knowing that i really can't do a great deal andi that i really can't do a great deal and i can't make any plans, not too far in the future anyway, just because i really don't know what the fate of my life years. we played a clip from your mother florence, how she described being in ya rl‘s florence, how she described being in yarl‘s wood detention centre. she described it as mental torture. you have been there twice, the first attention was last year, how long for? just for four weeks. and this year it was between january and may, four to five months. how would you describe those experiences? really, really scary. just being in a place where it feels like you are in prison but when you are in prison at least you know how long you will be in prison for. in this case we did not know how long we would be detained, it could have been a week but we were there for nearly five months, it was really hard and difficult having to sit with different people and then sharing their stories of how they came to their stories of how they came to the uk and why they are where they are, and actually that was really ha rd to are, and actually that was really hard to try to get them through, as well as getting myself and my mum through that process. i am still kind of trying to deal with all of that and figure out how to carry on, really. it is mental torture. on twitter, one viewer says 0pelo kgarihas on twitter, one viewer says 0pelo kgari has made a contribution to the uk economy and i see her as a valued member of society. people like her should be able to stay. built on twitter says with the uk allowing eu citizens to stay after brexit, is it not time we took a better line with those like 0pelo kgari to stay? some sort of amnesty, for example? cheryl on twitter says we cannot send such an intelligent integrated individual back to wake country that, quite frankly, she does not belong in any longer. it is ridiculous. matthew says kgari has no claim to be here, she and her mother are illegal immigrant. she has no claim and her mother's claim is to be with her, even less of a claim. johnny says she has no reason to remain, she needs to go back to the country of her birth. thank you for coming on the programme, we will continue to follow your story. thank you for talking to us, 0pelo kgari and her lawyer bahar ata. thank you so much. coming up... almost a quarter of schoolchildren aged ten—to—18 have witnessed animal cruelty and neglect on social media. that is according to a pole by the rspca. -- that is according to a pole by the rspca. —— according to a poll. we are speaking to the chief of a charity, who was calling for animal welfare to be part of the school curriculum. ministers are planning to further delay the roll—out of flagship welfare reform universal credit. michael buchanan has learned this, tell us more. the next stage of universal credit, manage migration, there are around 1 million people in universal credit at the moment because their circumstances have changed, they may have lost a job, moved house or had a new address. from january, people whose circumstances did not change, four million benefit recipients, we re four million benefit recipients, were going to begin getting letters saying you need to apply the universal credit. there will be a small—scale test injanuary, then tens of thousands would start getting these letters injuly and the whole thing was going to roll over every four years. that has all been delayed, the small—scale testing will not start until the summer, the massive numbers will not start getting the letters until november 2020 and that will lead to a delay at the other end. the deadline for the complete roll—out of universal credit has now slipped until december 2020 three, nine months later than the current plans they had, six and a half years later than the original plan. that is the delay. why? what are they going to do? during that time, what the dwp hope to do at least, is they will spend, with permission of the treasury, hundreds of millions of pounds trying to make it easierfor hundreds of millions of pounds trying to make it easier for people to move on to universal credit. so if you apply for the new benefit at the moment, any benefits you currently receives stop, with the exception of housing benefit. so you have seen lots of difficulties with people waiting weeks for money u nless people waiting weeks for money unless they get advanced payment. they are now planning to pay some of these old benefits, jobseeker‘s allowa nce, these old benefits, jobseeker‘s allowance, employment support allowa nce, allowance, employment support allowance, income support, for two weeks after you have applied. there will not be such a gap, that 35 they wait? exactly, if it works properly it should come down to a three week weights because they will backdate the universal credit payment. they are also thinking of reducing the amount of money taken from a universal credit award, so if you getan universal credit award, so if you get an advanced payment, they can ta ke get an advanced payment, they can take up to 40% backing any one month at the moment, afterwards they will bring that down to 30, they are thinking of making it easierfor self—employed people to stay on the benefit for a year. interestingly one of the things they thought about doing but according to these documents at least they have had to pull back from was to continue to pay child tax credits, these are particularly important to single pa rents. particularly important to single parents. they wanted to keep paying them for two weeks as well, but because of the way universal credit is defined is effectively a massive computer system, the other information from the department for work and pensions of the tax authority, it comes together, especially for tax credits because ofa especially for tax credits because of a complicated way in which it works. they thought they were paying child tax credits but at the moment they say it is undeliverable. very briefly, you have talked about the various things they are trying to do to ameliorate the complaints made over the system, but there is a big complaint that this is a system that makes poor people correct, what did the work and pensions secretary say about that? you has admitted some people will be worse off. the department for work and pensions continue to believe this benefit is fit for purpose and the national audit office in the summer said we know there are many problems with that but we are going too far down the road and has to be continued. the department for work and pensions say they are doing it gradually, they don't comment on leaks but they still remain committed to the benefit. thank you very much, a la social affairs correspondent, michael buchanan. your own experiences are very welcome. saudi arabia is preparing to admit that they killed the saudi journalist jamal khashoggi, according to unconfirmed reports in the us media. it's reported they will say that they intended to abduct him, but that he died by mistake as a result of an interrogation that went wrong. mr khashoggi was last seen at the saudi consulate in istanbul two weeks ago. mike pompeo — the us secretary of state — has arrived in saudi arabia's capital riyadh this morning to meet king salman to discuss the journalist's fate. president donald trump has said he's aware of the claims that saudi arabia is set to change its story and said he'd spoken to king salman. the king told me that turkey the king told me that turkey and the king told me that turkey and saudi arabia are working hand in hand very closely to get to the bottom of what happened, so we will see what happened but mike pompeo is leaving literally within an hour or so, he is heading to saudi arabia. we are going to leave nothing uncovered. with that being said, the king firmly denied any knowledge of it. he didn't really know, maybe, i don't want to get into his mind but it sounded to me like maybe these could have been wrote killers. who knows? we are going to try get into the bottom of it very soon but his was a flat denial. all i can do is report what he told me and he told me ina report what he told me and he told me in a very firm way that they had no knowledge of it. he said it very strongly. let's talk to our turkey correspondent mark lowen, who's in istanbul, where jamal khashoggi was killed, and a friend of mr khashoggi who is back on our programme — dr daud abdullah, who had dinner with mr khashoggi two days before he died. mark, for two weeks, riyadh has denied any involvement in the killing. this is changing. it is changing, and there has been increasing pressure on the saudis clearly internationally to come up with answers. and it seems, if us media reports are to believed, is the answer they will come out with is one that will be greeted with a lot of scepticism. if this really was an interrogation that went wrong, why, for example, would a couple of members of the saudi team that was sent here to be part of that was sent here to be part of that alleged interrogation, one of them would be an autopsy expert, one of them was a forensics expert, they are reported to have brought they bone saw with them. if they wrote killers, as president trump suggested in that discussion with journalists yesterday, is that really possible a country with a very vertical power structure like saudi arabia where, for something like this to happen inside a saudi diplomatic mission, with a team having come in on private saudi jets, have possible to have happened without knowledge or approval from the highest levels of the saudi leadership? i think a lot of critics will see in this an attempt by the saudi government to absolve itself of responsibility, to protect the crown prince mohammed bin salman, who is a very close ally of donald trump, and basically protect saudi arabia's relations with the us and with turkey at a time when, you know, the relationship with washington is based on arms deals and the relationship with turkey, turkey needs saudi arabia at a time of economic problems and it needs saudi money. thank you. doctor abdullah, wrote killers, killed accidentally, do you buy it? -- rogue killers. not at all. we know that these 15 individuals were members of the crown prince's security detail and they came to turkey on the very day that jamal went missing and they left on the same day, even though they were booked into hotels forfour same day, even though they were booked into hotels for four nights. what is at stake here is who bears criminal responsibility for the crime? is it the top individual, the crown prince, or even the king, for that matter? or the rogue elements that matter? or the rogue elements that they are saying? we know that ina that they are saying? we know that in a situation like this, it is not just the person who executed the crime but the one who ordered it and this is a problem that the saudis face today, and this is where the trump administration comes in. they appear to be acting on behalf of the upper echelons, ie the crown prince and his father, to absolve them from the crime and this is very difficult. sorry to interrupt. so as president trump said, picking very strongly denied it. is it possible that his son, the crown prince, could have ordered this without the king know it —— the king very strongly denied it. he is the de fa cto strongly denied it. he is the de facto ruler of the kingdom, there is no doubt about this. the war in yemen, the blockade of qatar, the squandering of the saudis‘ vast oil wealth is very much his doing and in this sense he bears responsibility. all of the evidence points in his direction. they were hoping for a diplomatic resolution of the whole thing and they sent four delegations to turkey over the last 10—15 days trying to persuade the turks to have some kind of politicalformula trying to persuade the turks to have some kind of political formula to the crisis. the turks are insisting this is a legal matter, this is a political matter and we wanted to settle this way and this is why the turks released information through their security sources into the media in dribs and drabs and they did not make a formal statement from the foreign office or from the presidency. they did it in such a way to influence public opinion and to ensure that it remains an international issue of a criminal and legal status. thank you very much again for coming on our programme, doctor abdullah, a friend ofjamal programme, doctor abdullah, a friend of jamal khashoggi's and programme, doctor abdullah, a friend ofjamal khashoggi's and he had dinner with him just two days before jamal khashoggi lost his life. still to come. the prime minister will meet with senior ministers in her cabinet this morning as she continues to try and get them behind her brexit strategy. we'll hear from two conservative mps — one who is behind the prime minister and one who disagrees with her. a new poll suggests that almost half of young people wouldn't be comfortable with a visually impaired boss. we'll be talking to people who suffer from sight loss to find out if public attitudes to blindness need to change. time for the latest news — here's joanna gosling. a further delay to the rollout of universal credit is being planned, according to leaked documents seen by the bbc. it's also suggested that there are plans to spend hundreds of millions of pounds, to ease the hardship when claimants are moved onto the system. the department for work and pensions said it always intended a slow roll—out, and it wouldn't comment on leaks. ministers have begun arriving for a crucial cabinet meeting at which theresa may will try to rally ministers at the start of a critical 48 hours for brexit. on monday, the prime minister told mps an agreement with the eu were still achievable despite an apparent deadlock over the irish border issue. eu leaders have said no deal issue. eu leaders have said no deal is more likely than ever before. the government will have to find an extra £19 billion a year if it is to uphold theresa may's promise that "austerity is over", according to the institute for fiscal studies' pre—budget report. the economic research institute also says chancellor philip hammond will face increasing borrowing and taxes, as the pledges to raise nhs spending and "balance the books" by 2020 are incompatible. offences motivated by prejudice against men could become hate crimes as part of a government review. figures released today are expected to show a spike in hate crime in england and wales. ministers say they want to make sure all vulnerable groups are protected in court, and are also looking to include misogyny and ageism. that's a summary of the latest bbc news. here's some sport now with olly foster. but we can't hear him. raheem stirling scored twice, his first england goals for three years, it was their first win in england goals for three years, it was theirfirst win in spain england goals for three years, it was their first win in spain for over 30 years. northern ireland are yet to win a point in the nations lead, they lost 2—0 against bosnia—herzegovina. edin dzeko scored twice. lizzy yarnold is retiring from skeleton. she became the first british olympian to win back—to—back gold medals in the winter olympics. and niles snapped finger ligaments in training on the parallel bars and will miss... that is all the sports honour. theresa may will try to rally ministers behind her this morning at the start of a critical 48 hours for brexit. the pm is meeting her top team in downing st right now to update them on negotiations for leaving the european union and to see which members of her cabinet still back her. perhaps ominously, a number of them had a pre—cabinet meeting last night — over pizza. let's speak to norman smith now, our political guru. who was at the pizza gathering? well, there were eight cabinet minister is there, so about a third of the cabinet turned up at the meeting in andrea leadsom's office. there were some of the prominent brexiteers but also, there were some theresa may's loyalists, some of the swing voices in the cabinet, so people like jeremy hunt, swing voices in the cabinet, so people likejeremy hunt, michael gove, chris grayling, which suggests the disquiet in the cabinet is now beginning to ripple out from beyond the ardent brexiteers. but we learned that, actually, having met last night, they couldn't really decide what to do, so it seems as if there is not going to be some great big bloodbath inside the cabinet this morning. it doesn't feel like people are going to storm out and slammed the door and say, "on this, i quit!" slammed the door and say, "on this, iquit!"| slammed the door and say, "on this, i quit!" i get the feeling they are all sort of holding back and the reason of course is because theresa may has pretty much put the negotiations on pause, she has decided let's just take a breather, let's not carry on on the current track, we can't agree over this northern ireland backstop to avoid a ha rd northern ireland backstop to avoid a hard and because she's put things on pause, i think her critics have put things on pause and certainly if you listen to some of them this morning, as they were heading to today's meeting, fingers like penny mordaunt in andrea leadsom —— features like penny mordaunt and andrea leadsom, they seem to be talking things down and ruling out resignations. no one is planning on resigning, we are all doing ourjobs and we are trying to get the best deal for this country and that's it. we are approaching the end of the negotiations, this is going to be a difficult time, but the whole cabinet is digging in to get the best deal for this country. are you satisfied that the prime minister has not guaranteed and end date? good morning, andrea, are you going to tell the prime minister to change course? the prime minister is doing a very, very complicated job and i'm fully supporting are in getting her done. are you going to... you think the promised assures your vision of brexit? i sincerely hope so and i'm supporting her to do that. so the whole cabinet digging in, but not to peter, this morning. so where does it leave us? i think it leaves us in the slow lane because we have seen a and again throughout this brexit process , and again throughout this brexit process, when mrs may meets difficulties, her usual strategy is to opt for the lay and i think that is what is beginning to play out and all of the expectation that tomorrow's summit was going to be the moment of truth ain't going to happen —— her usual strategy is to t happen —— her usual strategy is to opt for delay. it looks like the moment of truth, we may not get to november, maybe even december, because that has been mrs may's approach to this whole brexit process , approach to this whole brexit process, to try and ground down —— grind down her opponents inside the cabinet and the eu by a slow attritional processor gradually, gradually wearing them down and i think that is what we are seeing once again. it will be some christmas present. lets talk to jonathan djanogly, the conservative mp for huntingdon in cambridgeshire, who agrees with theresa may's position on the brexit negotiations, and to ross thomson, conservative mp for aberdeen south, who wants her to change approach. do you agree with that assessment, that things are calming down with the cabinet? i think there is a lot of anticipation because we are coming towards the end game in terms of the negotiations. i think there's a lot of frustration within parliament and that is reflected in the country. a lot of my constituents are still saying we had the referendum, why aren't you getting on with it? we need to look at it in two ways. firstly, it took us at it in two ways. firstly, it took us 40 years to get into the situation. the water we drink at the food we eat, the manufactured goods you see around you, all of that is based on european regulation. the idea that we would pull out of that quickly or easily was a i don't think anybody thought it would be easy it just looks like think anybody thought it would be easy itjust looks like the conservative party, from afar, has been arguing for two years. the other issue is that when it comes to international negotiations, there has never yet been an international treaty that hasn't been sorted out at the 11th hour. that is simply how they work. we need to hold our nerve and fightand they work. we need to hold our nerve and fight and stay steady on the basis of the chequers deal, which is the white paper agreed by cabinet. are you holding your nerve? absolutely, myself and other colleagues, notjust holding our nerve, but holding the prime ministerand nerve, but holding the prime minister and the government to the promises made. in our manifesto, we we re very promises made. in our manifesto, we were very clear that we wanted to leave the customs union and single market and in the landmark lancaster house speech, whether prime minister articulated her vision to brexit, she said the same things again. articulated her vision to brexit, she said the same things againm is the manifesto you want to hold her to rather than chequers?” is the manifesto you want to hold her to rather than chequers? i feel chequers is a departure from those promises. her former aide nick timothy writing in the sun today says it is time for her to find her ina says it is time for her to find her in a boudicca, who rose up against the roman empire, to stand up to the eu. do you agree? yes, she is negotiating on behalf of this country and now is not the time to be wobbly kneed, now is the time to get there and negotiate and we need to support her in what she's doing. imean, to support her in what she's doing. i mean, chequers is the agreed position, that is what she must stick to. if there are people in her cabinet who publicly disagree with that, they should stand down from the government. history will remember the deal, not a few minister is —— cabinet ministers who made a fuss. i thinkjonathan is right, if there are members of the cabinet unhappy, they should make that known. are you expecting resignations? i'm not expecting anything, we have come to this critical time on a number of occasions and nothing has happened but i'm hoping those cabinet members will hold their nerve and help the prime minister to change course. there is absolutely no evidence at all to suggest that theresa may is going to change course. there have been cabinet resignations, it made no difference. i'm hoping with the eu saying this deal is unacceptable and having made a statement to parliament yesterday, it was quite clear from all sides of the parliamentary party and in the commons that there is unhappiness with this deal and if it is towards that canada style, free trade agreement which would be in the best interest... which has no solution for keeping an invisible border in northern ireland. the er g and others have put forward credible suggestions from the eu's point of view about how you can do that. they are the only ones who seem to support that. this idea of being happy to deal. chequers is not about being happy, it is a compromise about different positions between party members... this week is about the backstop policy, which would only kick in if there is no trade deal, so hopefully it will never be needed. all she has to do is set a firm date for when britain would finally leave the eu. why is that so difficult? it is difficult because the eu is not prepared to have a deal that doesn't look at northern ireland. so if we are saying that northern ireland has to be treated equally with the rest of the united kingdom, which is basically where ross and i are certainly don't agree and most members of parliament will ee, and most members of parliament will agree, so if we are going to have an a nswer to agree, so if we are going to have an answer to what the european union wa nts, answer to what the european union wants, it would involve staying as pa rt wants, it would involve staying as part of the customs union which, by the way, is where i would like to be. that is actually what concerns me, a backstop for tyres into the customs union and it looks like indefinitely. that does not hold true to what the people voted for in june 2016. that doesn't allow us to said trade tariffs, our own trade deals. you have to admit, that would not be leaving the eu.” not be leaving the eu. i totally disagree. i think if you look at the people who voted to leave... hayward staying in a customs union be leaving the european union? -- howwood. because we would no longer be part of the infrastructure or the committees of the european union. you wouldn't be able to do your own deals with other countries?m depends, you could possibly separated between goods and services but more to the point, i think it needs to be looked at again. the government's i'm policy is that one third countries are going to be dealt with in the same way as the eu currently deals with them, so the benefits of doing our own trade deals need to be looked at more closely. replay and finally, who is going to blink first? theresa may or the eu? the eu have offered a free trade deal, so hopefully theresa may will move towards that. she doesn't wa nt will move towards that. she doesn't want that. i mean on the end date. we can't have an indefinite tie—in to the customs union. so the eu in your view. wto and canada will not get through the house of commons. a free—trade deal will go through the house of commons. thank you both very much. coming up... almost a quarter of schoolchildren aged 10—18 have witnessed animal cruelty and neglect on social media. we'll speak to the new boss of the rspca who is calling for animal welfare to be part of the school curriculum. it is his first interview since taking over thejob it is his first interview since taking over the job and it is his first interview since taking over thejob and it it is his first interview since taking over the job and it will be a wide—ranging one after ten o'clock. you can see some of those horrible exa m ples you can see some of those horrible examples on social media. that was on snapchat. that is a cat being strangled, as you can see. would you be happy to work under a blind or partially sighted boss? a new poll's suggesting nearly half of 18—24 year olds wouldn't be comfortable with it. the survey was carried out by the royal national institute of blind people and also shows that 40% of people think that you're more likely to have a less successful career if you've suffered sight loss. the rnib has released the research for its 150—year anniversary and the organisation says public attitudes need to change significantly. let's talk now to lizzie capener — she's an opera singer who has suffered a loss of peripheral vision and struggles to see in darkness because of a hereditary condition. georgie morrell is a comedian who began losing her sight aged three. she's totally blind in her left eye and has lost some of the sight in her right. and eleanor southwood is the chair of the rnib. she's also partially sighted. we are hoping to bejoined by graham drew, who is partially sighted and is the head of a recruitment agency. thank you for coming on the programme. how'd you react to the of this survey? personally, it is a bit ofan this survey? personally, it is a bit of an antiquated view, i think. there seems to be a view in society that if you have some sort of physical disability, that you also much that could lead must have some sort of mental disability, which i don't think is true at all —— that you also must have. i know visually impaired people that solicitors, gosh... opera singers! comediennes! absolutely. we do all sorts of jobs. i don't think there's any truth that whatsoever. georgie, so many 18-24 —year—olds would be comfortable having a boss that is visually impaired. i was disappointed to save their lives, because everything i'm working towards using comedy to raise awareness of visual impairment hasjust gone to raise awareness of visual impairment has just gone to waste a little bit. there is a responsibility of both parties, those who are visually impaired, to communicate more and tell our stories and for everyone else to listen and take that out into the world and that is not a big ask. eleanor, you must agree that these findings are a bit depressing. they are pretty sobering. it is quite something being 150 years old as an organisation and it is an opportunity to look back and lots has changed. it is important to remind ourselves that 150 years ago, there was no way to read and they're almost certainly was no career prospects at all, but there is clearly a long, long way to go. only one in four people who is blind or partially sighted has a job today which, if you compare to other statistics across other disabilities and with the general population, is pretty appalling. why do you think that is? there are lots of reasons for that. some of it is what you have highlighted, some real misconceptions. so if there are lots of people out there and interestingly, more younger people, who do not think that blind and partially sighted people can access books, can enjoy television and can hold down a job, then it is little wonder that when recruiting for positions or when looking at who to employ, those stereotypes and misconceptions really come to the fore. let me bring georgie back in. how does your impairment affect you? it has become the basis of my career ifi it has become the basis of my career iflam it has become the basis of my career if i am absolutely honest. i got to the stage in my early 20s where i was sick of hiding it. i trained as an actor and moved into comedy and i got a little bit fed up that i had to pretend it wasn't there, because it wasn't what fitted in and decided to embrace it and it's been the source to embrace it and it's been the source of my material and what i do and it has been a lot of fun along the way. and what about you, lizzie, how would you describe your impairmentand how would you describe your impairment and how it affect you?” have a condition that is degenerative, i was diagnosed and i was 17 and my peripheral has sort of slowly diminished as i got older. it is the same sort of thing is georgie, really, isort is the same sort of thing is georgie, really, i sort of went along in my life thinking, it is fine, i don't need to deal with is, until it got to the stage... i trained as a secondary music teacher and was teaching in east london and, as you can imagine, if you can't see children in a room in east london, particularly older children, they might not necessarily be doing what you want them to be doing so we had to get to the stage where i gave up that career and that was difficult. that was difficult because i hadn't sort of said anything to anybody about it before and was trying to get on with it. i'm going to introduce graham, who just wandered in. graham drew, very nice deceived, partially sighted, managing director ofa partially sighted, managing director of a recruitment —— nice to see you, managing director of a recruitment company and your dog. ricky. we love dogs on this show. there are many green things that have come out of this survey but there is the suggestion that a lot of 18—24 —year—olds would not feel co mforta ble —year—olds would not feel comfortable with the visually impaired boss. how'd you react as an md of impaired boss. how'd you react as an mdofa impaired boss. how'd you react as an md of a company? it is a difficult one, it is comparing it to baby boomers and a lot of empathy has built up, lots of experience of people who are older and have worked with people who are visually impaired, just through having a longer period of time to be exposed to that and i don't know the statistics are fine, but are more likely to have experience in visual degradation themselves or have peers who have. and equally, if you look back, i think the question in the reporters could you see yourself having a boss or an mp? baby boomers had david blunkett, they had an mp, they don't have to imagine it. they have cultural icons like ray charles and stevie wonder and i think now, we have such an homogenised media, everything is such perfection, there aren't really that many role models the people, even visually impaired people, to look up to or indeed people, to look up to or indeed people who aren't visually impaired to look and see these people in roles. how does your, the fact that you are partially sighted, affect your ability to be a managing director of a private company, if at all? it means i have to really trust my staff... and your dog. indeed, but he isn't as good at telling me when my administrators are rolling their eyes at me. it is only a matter of time before dogs learn that skill. make the effort, ricky. let me read some comments if i may. nigel on e—mail says i have 10% vision and i have spent most of my working life trying to convince people that are being able to see did not mean i was incapable of certainty and thought. this particularly so while i was in the civil service. the trouble with this places it attracts the sort of personality that sees weakness of any kind, including disability, has something to scorn or exploit. interestingly, i have started to use a white stick in crowded areas and for crossing roads. it has made me feel more vulnerable, rather than less and with few exceptions, people pay no attention at all. i have even been tarted up for in someone's way getting on the chut. eileen says my daughter is blind and went to uni and hoping to get a job but unfortunately, businesses didn't wa nt to but unfortunately, businesses didn't want to help as i thought they didn't know how to handle a blind person. she has been lucky, a company has taken her on with full support after years of refusals at interviews. what advice would you give, eleanor, to companies who don't know how to" handle a blind person"? it is all in that phrase. i think part of the reason for the stats we are talking about is that beer, perhaps our fear of not wanting to offend and also one of the reasons why our big focus in the rnib is to encourage people to see differently and seeing things differently and seeing things differently is about curiosity and asking questions. so is it located say to a person who is blind or partially sighted, why are you partially sighted, why are you partially sighted, why are you partially sighted —— is it ok?” think that might be an interesting way of asking a question, that implies that somehow... is somebody asked me, in that way, when i walk out of here today, i certainly wouldn't start shouting at them because i think sometimes closing down that... what is a better way? how can! down that... what is a better way? how can i help? what is it that i can do to help? and i think that there's as much was somebody who might see somebody out and about on the chut, in the street, on the bus, as it does for somebody who needs somebody in a job interview. i think the other thing is about people knowing about where to go for information. obviously, the rnib helpline is a really good first start but working with people out there in graham's line of work, who are recruiting people, working with employers day in, day out, breaking down some of those barriers so it doesn't feel like a frightening scary thing to see that slight difference in people. by the way, i was suggesting that people would go up was suggesting that people would go up to blind people on the underground, for example, and say, "why are you blind?" victoria, you would be amazed. what has happened to you? i use mike kane, obviously i don't necessarily looked like there is anything wrong with me and i have had people say, "you are not blind." i have had friends who have had people wave hands in front of their face. i have a friend is, someone danced in front of him saying, "can you see me now?" there is a serious benefit, i know of people who have had "benefits benefit, i know of people who have had " benefits scrounger" benefit, i know of people who have had "benefits scrounger" shouted at them and we live in a society at the moment that this sort of riven with some divisions and some fear and i think in that context, it makes it even harder for people who are blind or partially sighted who sometimes are the recipients of that. my experience of it has always been a minute that someone thinks you are gaining this system for whatever reason, and i have my face close to a tube map, then you are clearly not blind and it is a really long: i have on the go if that is the case. you have gone to a heck of a lot of effort. the reason that people react like that is part of the problem, they feel like this is a really vulnerable, fragile group of people that we have to be really careful than the minute they think you are taking advantage of that, very misguided of them, they start yelling at you and it needs to be normalised. it is a group that are incredibly resilient than confident andl incredibly resilient than confident and i think the best thing we can do is instead of focusing on the really disappointed statistics is focused on people who are living by example. so people around me who are who they are and take it out into the world. and that is exactly what we are calling for with this research, for people to see evil for who they are rather the disability they have. thank you, all of you. really grateful to see you all. thank you. news and sports on the wave, but before that simon has the weather. hello. it started off misty and murky for many this morning, fog has been causing problems. this is from a weather watcher in cumbria. the ministers lifting away, sunshine is coming through in the south—east of england and that is where we will see the lion's sherrock the sunshine. —— mark the mist is lifting away. it will be warmer than yesterday. low pressure is moving towards iceland, but the low pressure will bring rain across northern ireland and into scotland. gail is likely today. there will be some sunny gail is likely today. there will be some sunny spells developing and northern ireland later, brighter skies and sunshine later, in the east of england it will feel pretty warm for the time of year. further north and west, a bit cooler, but warmer than yesterday. typical values today of about 16 to 18 celsius, 21 or 22 in the south—east of england. through tonight, this area of cloud patchy rain will continue to move south and east into north—east england, the midlands and south west england. this will keep temperatures in double figures overnight tonight, but with clear spells further north and west, temperatures down in single figures. on wednesday we still have a weather front which will really stick around in south—west england and the midlands towards lincolnshire and east anglia, patchy rain on that throughout wednesday. towards the south east, ahead of the weather front, it will be mostly sunny towards london and the south—east. further north and west behind the weather front, it will be brighter woodson cheng, one of two showers moving in but actually a day. even in the south—east, feeling cooler than today. the weather front eventually clears away during wednesday daytime and we have a big ridge of high pressure across the uk, settling things down onto thursday. drier for many with light winds, patchy mist and fog, low cloud floating through the morning. that will gradually lifted away and for most of us it will be a fairly sunny day on thursday. temperatures down to about 14 or 16 degrees, a bit chilly but with the light winds and sunshine it should not feel too bad. hello, it's tuesday, it's 10am, i'm victoria derbyshire. the roll—out of the goverment‘s universal credit policy is to be delayed yet again and may not be up and running until the end of 2023. 0h, oh, simon's microphone was still up! some say it's ruined their lives. what's been the worst part for you? not being able to see my sun. (inaudible). all she is asking for is £54 a week. if you receive universal credit, how do you react to this news? get in touch and let us know. we are talking about it in the next hour. a 28—year—old woman from botswana whose just been told she's to be deported. 0pelo kgari — a woman who has lived in britain for 15 years — and was detained twice at yarls wood detention centre but whose appeals to stay here have been rejected by the home office. i'm just i'mjust ina i'm just in a state of shock, really. i don't understand why i'm having to go through this, but we're just hoping that we can keep gobbling and fighting and hoping that we will cnn to this. —— see an end to this. if you want to hear the full interview with 0pelo, you can go to the victoria derbyshire programme page at bbc.co.uk. and, animal welfare should be on the school curriculum — that's the view of the rspca's ceo as it's revealed that a quarter of schoolchildren aged 10—18 have witnessed animal cruelty and neglect on social media. we have an exclusive interview with the new rscpa in a few moments' time. good morning, it's ten o'clock. here's joanna gosling with a summary of the day's news. ministers have bowed to pressure and are planning to further delay the roll—out of the flagship welfare reform universal credit, according to leaked documents seen by the bbc. the documents also reveal that there are plans to spend hundreds of millions of pounds to ease the hardship when claimants are moved onto the system. the department for work and pensions said it always intended a slow roll—out, and it wouldn't comment on leaks. a crucial cabinet meeting is taking place as theresa may attempts to rally ministers at the start of a critical 48 hours for brexit. senior ministers voiced concerns about her proposals during a meeting over pizza last night. they're worried about the so—called northern ireland backstop, which is designed to prevent a hard border in ireland. they want it to have a definite end date, to prevent the uk following eu customs rules indefinitely. no one is planning on resigning, we're all doing ourjobs and trying to get the best deal for this country, and that's it. we're ending... were approaching the end of the negotiations, this will be a difficult time but the whole cabinet is digging in to get the best deal for this country. are you satisfied that the prime minister has not guaranteed and n steel? end date? president trump has said he is aware of unconfirmed reports that saudi arabia is preparing to say that the missing journalist jamal khashoggi died during an unauthorised interrogation at its consulate in turkey. the us secretary of state is meeting with king salman in saudi arabia amid controversy over the fate of saudi journalist. —— the saudi journalist. meanwhile, the un's human rights chief has urged saudi arabia and turkey to reveal all information and to lift immunity on diplomatic premises. there has been an increase in every category of hate crime in england and wales, according to the latest figures. the 17% rise is a record high of which the majority were religious hate crimes. more than half of religious hate offences were directed at muslims. the increase in every category may reflect better reporting methods used by police and a greater willingness from victims to come forward. the number of employed people in britain remains at a near record high, despite a slight fall of five thousand as revealed by the latest unemployment figures. despite the decrease, employment is 289,000 higher than a year ago. meanwhile basic wages have risen at the fastest pace in nearly a decade over the past three months. earnings, excluding bonuses, rose by just over 3% in the three months to august. the duke and duchess of sussex have been on their first public outing since it was revealed that they are due to become parents. the couple are in australia for their first overseas tour and have already been given their first baby presents as they met australia's governor—general. they will also visit new zealand, fiji and tonga on their 16—day trip. the children's tv show blue peter mark 60 years today since it was first aired. it has seen 37 presenters and 25 pets, including cats, dogs and taught us is, and it has added more than 5000 episodes. the famous blue peter badge was launched five years after the show first aired and has been given to approximately 1 first aired and has been given to approximately1 million first aired and has been given to approximately 1 million fans. there will be an hour—long anniversary show celebrating the milestone tonight. that's a summary of the latest bbc news — more at 10:30am. thank you for your comments on universal credit, i will read some in the next half hour or so. do get in touch with us throughout the morning — use the hashtag #victorialive. if you're emailing and are happy for us to contact you — and maybe want to take part in the programme — please include your phone number in your message. there is also whatsapp on facebook. olly foster is at the bbc sport centre. good morning. gareth southgate praised the bravery of his players after beating spain in spain for the first time in 30 years. they won 3—2 in the nations league in seville. after a brilliant display of counterattackiing football, they were 3—0 up by halftime. raheem sterling scored twice, his first england goals for three years. that was his first, set up by marcus rashford. captain harry kane then teed up rashford. and kane also got the assist for sterling's second. spain hadn't lost a competitive match at home for 15 years. and pulled two back, but england held on and the manager is very satisfied with where his team is at the moment. we had a really good summer. we had to show signs that we could step forward and we've learned a lot. this week has been a really good week, two good performances, we tried a new system and we found out a lot about some young players who've done exceptionally well. so, yeah, i'm really happy with what everybody‘s done. northern ireland are bottom of their nations league group with no points after their latest defeat, beaten away against bosnia— herzegovina 2—0, but they hit the woodwork three times. they were already trailing to an eden dzeko goal when gavin whyte came off the bench, he managed to hit the post from pretty much point blank range. dzeko then scored his second, to make it three wins out of three for them, but whyte still managed to hit the post again late on. that's three defeats in a row for northern ireland in this competition and there's every chance that they will now be relegated. a really frustrating night for their manager. the whole dynamic of the game change. george hit the post, he had a great chance before that when he should have scored, to be honest. ultimately, we were punished for our mistake. bosnia pressed very well but we did not give them many opportunities, jacko had a half chance that the mistake cost us and jacko's class punished us. —— and edin dzeko's class pernicious. skeleton olympic champion lizzie yarnold is retiring from the sport. she became the first british winter olympian to win back—to—back titles and she said it was time for a new chapter and she'd been contemplating her future since winning that second gold medal. i tried not to get my head thinking about a time before bjorn chang, it was such an important race i wanted to make sure i was totally focused on that. —— a time before peon chang. then there were a couple of injuries, i was ill, chang. then there were a couple of injuries, iwas ill, i chang. then there were a couple of injuries, i was ill, i did not know how the result would go. i did not wa nt to how the result would go. i did not want to retire thinking was because it was a bad result i was injured. i have had an amazing team of rehab, the medical team have been fantastic, a tough summer but now i realise i am super proud of having an amazing ten years. the thai teenage football team who were rescued after two weeks trapped in a flooded cave have been given a brilliant surprise. the 12 boys and their coach were appearing on the ellen degeneres show when zlatan ibrahimovic stepped out to meet them. they'd just told ellen that he was their idol. this team is more braver than me. they showed their collective teamwork and they had patients, faith and belief in other hands, also. this is probably the best team in the world. pretty special. that's all this board for now, i will be back in the next hour. —— all the sport for now. the new head of the rspca is calling for animal welfare to be taught in schools after the charity says 5000 online incidents of animal cruelty are reported to it every year. chris sherwood says a quarter of children between ten and 18 have been exposed to animal cruelty on social media. here are some of the examples. the first is a cat being strangled, posted on youtube. the next shows a bird being force—fed alcohol and cigarettes by teenagers — that was on snapchat and shared on facebook. and then there's the dog that was chained to a sofa, again seen on snapchat and shared on twitter. you can see the lock at the bottom of the chain. and the last one is apparently a squirrel being set on fire — that was on snapchat. let's talk to the new chief executive of the rspca, chris sherwood, in his very first interview since taking over as head of the organisation which last year raised £140 million in donations and legacies. he earns a salary of £150,000 and is their eighth chief executive in 11 years. he's here with harley, whose story we'll explain in a moment. he is being so well—behaved, but his tail started working as soon as he heard his name. first of all, what do you think of those images of animal cruelty posted on various social media apps? good morning and thank you for having me on, it is a pleasure to talk to you about the work of the rspca. when i look at those images, particularly the squirrel being set on fire, it horrifies me. that brought a tear to my eye. that is why the rspca is launching the biggest prevention campaign of its kind in the 194 years of its history, because we want to support young people to have the right information and skills and education, because we know from our research that one in four young people has seen images like that through social media, which is very different to when i grew up. the computer was brought undone a trolley around school, it was before the advent of social media. —— the computer was brought in on a trolley. my worry is that these images could desensitise them or they could see them as normal, it should not happen like that. and it could potentially lead to copycat incidents? that is the concern. our campaign is called generation kind, we wa nt campaign is called generation kind, we want to reach 2 million people by 2030 to get out the message about animal welfare so young people can exercise choice and consent, it is not ok to share images like that or make them, we want to encourage young people to share positive images, dogs like harley, we want to challenge the negative images and end animal cruelty. why do some young people, why are some young people, cruel to animals, do you think? the biggest issue we see in our inspectorate, and we have 350 inspectors throughout the country who respond daily to animal welfare incidents, the biggest issue is neglect, which comes from a lack of information about the five principles of animal welfare. particularly if you have an exotic animal like the welfare or snake, ensuring it is appropriately fed and housed, taken ensuring it is appropriately fed and housed, ta ken care ensuring it is appropriately fed and housed, taken care off. those images we showed was young people perpetrating cruelty, was it not? absolutely, and we want to end cruelty in that way. where does that come from? one of the challenges of social media is for young people to be able to produce and share them, they are looking for the next thing that goes viral and we want to challenge that. positive images of animals are much more likely to go viral, we want to challenge that. hence your call for animal welfare to be taught in schools? we wa nt schools? we want to get animal welfare on the national curriculum, we think it is really important. 97% of young people in our survey said they thought it was imported by young people had education and skills before taking on the responsibility of having a pet. surely that is pa rents, of having a pet. surely that is parents, not the school curriculum? it takes all others to be kind to animals and promote that kindness and compassion. —— it takes all of us. it is parents, it is also government ensuring animal welfare is on the national curriculum, it is also associations that the rspca. we wa nt to also associations that the rspca. we want to have a kind generation, to reach 2 million people by 2030. we are talking about this and want to encourage others, weather that is business or government and parents themselves, we are putting resources out there. we have over 2500 schools signed up to the compassionate costu me signed up to the compassionate costume initiative, one of the ambitious, innovative projects we have as part of generation kind. if we promote kindness for animals, we get it right for everybody. we all wa nt to get it right for everybody. we all want to live in a kinder, fairer, more inclusive society. badger watch on twitter says all animal abuse offenders should be put on a register, similar to six offenders. what do you think? —— similar to sex offenders. when prosecutions take place under the animal welfare act, one of the problems is tracking them. one of the things that happens under the animal welfare act as people can be forbidden for having an animal for a period of time or their whole life, making sure the information is out there. so do you need a register? it can help to make sure responsible pet owners are not distracted and those who have committed cruelty or abuse are prevented from having an animal in the future. john says it should not need to be taught, it should be about basic decency. anybody who abuses animals does not have that. this text says schools should teach animal welfare from reception age to secondary. this is where harley comes in, he is pa rt this is where harley comes in, he is part of generation kind. he did not have an amazing start in life but has been re—homed recently. you matched him with a young person who was also vulnerable and lacking in self esteem, you put the two together as part of your project. what difference does it make to both? this is one of the projects i am proud and passionate about, which is our paws for change project. he is our paws for change project. he is mid—range austin in his name, cuddles and treats. harley is seven yea rs cuddles and treats. harley is seven years old, he struggled to adapt to life in kennels, he was in there for nine months before being re—homed. —— he is much more interested in his name, cuddles and treats. he was very down and not engaging with people in the centre. alexis was a young woman who came into the centre and through a structured programme she learned about our behaviour and training programmes for dogs and harley got the benefit of not spending a lot of time in kennels and building our relationship with alexis. i am and building our relationship with alexis. iam pleased and building our relationship with alexis. i am pleased to say that after four weeks he was alexis. i am pleased to say that afterfour weeks he was re—homed with pam and derek, who brought him along today. he has lived with him and his forever home for the past four weeks. that is the win—win of the paws for change programme, harley had a good experience but alexis developed her self—confidence and self—esteem. there is a video of them on the rspca website. that is www.rspca.org.uk. well done for getting back in. the charity was given an official warning by the charity commission this year all reportedly giving the former chief executive a payoff reported to be around £200,000. the charity said the decision was not made properly given the large amounts involved and it amounted to mismanagement in the administration of the charity. obviously this had nothing to do with you, it was before you came along, but what is your view on the size of that payoff? in terms of the specific issues around how he left, i cannot comment. you can give me your view about the size of payoff. the official warning was taken very seriously by the charity of the board of trustees. was a too much? we are looking at modernising governance, we are midway through a governance, we are midway through a governance review and that is very much part of what i will be working with the trustees on during my time as chief executive. do you think it was too much? i am focused on moving forward into the future, generation kind is part of my vision for the organisation. i am a millennial, just about, and older millennial. i wa nt just about, and older millennial. i want the rspca to enable and empower the next generation of advocates and campaigners and supporters of animal welfare. which is why the payoff and warning is important, i know you will not give me your view on weather it is too much a too little, you can possibly think it is not too much, but that size of payoff and the subsequent criticism damages trust in the rspca, would you agree? trust and confidence are important. one survey, a yougov survey, the charity saw a biggest increase interest, they found is that that. was this before the payoff for warning? but was this year. my vision is how we engage with the next generation of supporters and advocates. millennials are incredibly passionate about animal welfare, a recent yougov survey found that the top ten charities, four animal welfare charities and the rspca is the tenth. we have experienced challenges, i have been in post for two and a half months, i am focused on taking this amazing organisation that works tirelessly every day for animals, to move it forward and build. is it cruel to seals? i think the story you are talking about is the fa ct story you are talking about is the fact that there are farms across the country... including ones that shoot seals, because they are seen as predatory towards the salmon? salmon consumption is growing in society, we respond to that the man. we want to give consumers the ability to make informed choices about the animal products they buy. we are committed to raising standards about animal welfare. unfortunately we had to balance the welfare needs of different species and we have an issue with certain salmon farms off the coast of scotland where if they seal breaks in and gets you the defences, it can inflict pain and suffering on hundreds if not thousands of salmon and potentially kill many. is it cruelto thousands of salmon and potentially kill many. is it cruel to shoot seals? we want a position where no seals? we want a position where no seals are shot, that is the pledge by 2020. if you stop approving the ones that shoot seals, it might hasten the change. we have said that by2020 hasten the change. we have said that by 2020 we want to see a zero policy of shooting seals on any salmon farm assured by the rspca. so what we're doing at the moment is looking at research, in british columbia they have achieved that. what worked there that we can bring over to scotland? there that we can bring over to scotland ? we are there that we can bring over to scotland? we are looking at standards very actively at the moment and will take a stronger line, we want to ensure that no seals shot but we may have a situation where it has to be shot if it breaks into it, but we don't want to have that situation where a seal is shot, and and we are the biggest rehabilitate of seals in the country. is it hypocritical if you are improving scottish salmon farms who shoot seals? —— if you are approving? the difficult choice we have to makers balancing the welfare needs. the challenge of the question you pose is whether we prioritise the needs of the seal over the welfare needs of salmon? that is a difficult choice that we have to make daily. it is reported that some of the people who sit on your advisory group for your assurance scheme, who hand out the rspca assured label, work for salmon fishing farming firms. isn't that a huge conflict of interest? we engage with industry, we are an animal welfare charity and need to work with the industry. but are the people who work for those farms on your assurance scheme? there are people... that is a conflict of interest? but alongside those people we have academics and scientists and all of our standards which inform our scheme are informed by the science. we don't make choices without consulting science or vets and all the decisions that we make. is that something you would look at, the people who work for the salmon farms being on your panel? one thing we really want to prioritise looking at is how we get to that position by 2020, that no seals are shot on a salmon farm. we are looking at research evidence about this, all of our work is informed by science, also looking at welfare standards informed by science as well to see how to get to that position. i want to ask you about pit bulls. they are banned in this country, as the audience will know, and if you own a pit bull it is likely it would have to be put down even if it has done nothing wrong, by your organisation. the rspca put down 81 such dogs last year in compliance with the law. tomorrow the environment select committee is due to publish a report into the effectiveness of the dangerous dogs act, which came in 27 years ago, under which pit bulls are banned. harley is not a pit bull, i don't know why i am gesturing in his direction. do you think the dangerous dogs act is effective in protecting the public from dog attacks? i think the evidence speaks for itself. there were in the region of 50 individuals killed by dangerous dogs in the past ten yea rs, dangerous dogs in the past ten years, the majority were not covered by the dangerous dogs act. 30 people have died since then in dog related incidents. so we are seeing a trend across europe for taking breed specific legislation of the statutory group, which we have called for. why? 81 dogs euthanised by the rspca last year under the law, the assessment ta kes pla ce year under the law, the assessment takes place based on the look of the dog, there is no dna testing, testing of genetic history, it is purely on how the dog looks, it is quite arbitrary. rather than their behaviour? yes, it is based on their behaviour? yes, it is based on their behaviour —— appearance, not behaviour. i saw a very gorgeous great pit bull who was very calm and measured in his behaviour, it had to be euthanised because it looked like a pit bull. we are calling for the legislation to change. we want more research, on your point about understanding more about how we can work with dogs demonstrating bad behaviour, how we can work with them more and needing to see more legislation, and even if we can't get it changed we are hoping that it least organisations like the rspca will get the power to re—home a dog which can be re—homed, covered by section one of the dangerous dogs act. we would like to see that come out of the reported tomorrow, it is heartbreaking for stav. someone like harley was with us for nine months, you form a relationship and then you had to put them to sleep, it is incredibly distressing for staff and it happened 81 times last year, it is unnecessary it happened 81 times last year, it is unnecessary as we can it happened 81 times last year, it is unnecessary as we can look about differently. to be absolutely clear, are you saying the breed specific legislation should be scrapped, ie pit bulls and the other three under the dangerous dogs act, the other three banned breeds, should not be banned? we think we should repeal the legislation and go down the road looking much more at behavioural assessment before going in purely on the look of a dog. it is very arbitrary, it is about whether someone arbitrary, it is about whether someonejudges that dog. arbitrary, it is about whether someone judges that dog. and when you make the assessments it is not just simply not trained, those assessments need to be based on individuals like vets. one final story, it is in the observer on sunday, and above trophy hunting firms are offering trophy shooting packages in bedfordshire, red deer stag can be shot a £9,000, according to a price list from last year. the abbott said exotic deer in bedfordshire, including at woburn abbey deer park. —— the advert said. woburn said it was not affiliated with that, but what do you think?” did not read the story so i cannot comment, but we do not want to see a position where we're shooting animals for sport. clearly there are some circumstances where an animal needs to be euthanised, that is not something you would see an rspca brand on, there are better things you can do at a weekend. come to one of ouranimal you can do at a weekend. come to one of our animal centres and tree hole one of our animals, we have more than 50 across the country if you're looking for a dog, cat, robert or there —— and three hole of our animals. animals like harley, how can you not fall in love with this gorgeous dog? i am covered and hair but very happy. thank you so much for talking to us and giving is so much time, and to harley, who has been so well behaved. i adore him. thank you. coming up... a team has been set up in sheffield to allow the police, council and agencies to work together to tackle child grooming by criminal gangs who use children as young as ten to carry out criminal activities. we will talk about that in the next half an hour. now back to one of our top stories today. leaked documents seen by the bbc reveal that ministers have bowed to pressure and are planning to further delay the rollout of their flagship welfare reform, universal credit. the new system merges six benefits into one payment and has been plagued by problems. it's massively overspent and will be at least six years late. the leaked papers also contain proposals to spend hundreds of millions of pounds to try to prevent claimants suffering hardship when they move onto it. the government said it always intended to introduce the benefit slowly. with me now in the studio is independent mp — formerly labour mp — frank field. in our westminster studio is andrew bowie, a conservative mp, and alsojoining us is naomi krzykawiak. she contacted the programme this morning and has come into the birmingham studio for us. naomi, i know! naomi, i know i mangled the pronunciation of your surname, so i apologise in advance, but tell us your experience. it is definitely very hard, it does take a long time to come through and when you apply through it, you don't really realise what issues it can cause. i was pregnant at the time i applied the universal credit, having to wait around six weeks for the benefit to be accepted was an issue. what did it mean you have to do? it did definitely mean using food banks, which is not the best of circumstances whilst being pregnant. it does definitely not make you feel good, that is something i had to do around eight times before the benefit has been accepted. around eight times before the benefit has been acceptedm around eight times before the benefit has been accepted. it won't help you, of course, because you are already receiving it but how would you react to the news today that the full roll—out will now not happen for another few years?” full roll—out will now not happen for another few years? i am shocked andi for another few years? i am shocked and i feel sorry, being for another few years? i am shocked and ifeel sorry, being in that situation myself, for the people who are now forced to use food banks, like myself, or getting into debt with their friends or familyjust to be able to survive. andrew bowie, hired you respond to naomi's experience on universal credit, as you are a conservative mp —— how do you are a conservative mp —— how do you respond? situations like the one naomi finds herself and tragic and one of the thing that gets lost in this whole debate about universal when we politicise it, for whichever party is doing good, is we lose track of the individuals involved in actually concern and naomi's cases a tragic case. nobody should ever be in the position whereby they are forced to use food bank to offset the situation. it is the way universal credit was designed by your party. that is why it has led to naomi having to use a food bank. which is why the government have been listening to cases like naomi's and why i was very proud tojoin frank, who i know is on the programme as well, on the work and pensions committee last year in forcing the government to reduce the waiting time from six weeks down to five weeks and to make access to emergency payments much easier. the government has been taking a very slow, steady and sure view of the roll—out of universal credit from the very beginning. but don't you model these things before you bring them in? don't you work it out? intellectually, surely someone says i wonder what impact it would have on somebody having to wait for six weeks, or five weeks, on somebody having to wait for six weeks, orfive weeks, before on somebody having to wait for six weeks, or five weeks, before they get theirfirst weeks, or five weeks, before they get their first universal credit payment. as i said, it's a tragedy when anybody... you have all be said that, i'm asking about the intellectual curiosity amongst politicians and civil servants before a new system is brought in.” was elected in june before a new system is brought in.” was elected injune 2017, when the debate on universal credit was already raging and as i said, i was pleased tojoin already raging and as i said, i was pleased to join frank already raging and as i said, i was pleased tojoin frank on already raging and as i said, i was pleased to join frank on the work and pensions committee and being successful in doing something to mitigate some of the issues regarding universal credit, issues which the government fully aware of. they have kept a listening ear through this entire process and first david gauke and now esther mcvey have been working very, very ha rd mcvey have been working very, very hard to make sure universal credit does actually work for everybody who needs to be in receipt. esther mcvey told the bbc last week that some people will be poorer under universal credit. is that working very, very hard? esther mcvey is working very hard and all of the officials in dwp are working very ha rd officials in dwp are working very hard to make it works. does that include making poor people poorer? universal credit well end up with people earning more and will incentivise work. some of these people are already working, they are in work. this will incentivise work and actually make work pay. the tragedy was the previous systems, whereby people were better off in cases in benefits rather than in work and we have seen today with wage growth rising and unemployment at its lowest level since the early 19705, at its lowest level since the early 1970s, these changes are having a positive impact on millions of people around the country. frank field, do you accept that, for some people, there is a positive impact? well, i accept that the government now is in an impossible position and andrew illustrates that. he is one of the most able of the new intake of the most able of the new intake of mps and has real difficulty, real difficulty in defending what the government is doing and while the leaked document is welcome, it goes nowhere near far enough. essentially, universal credit would be brilliant for you and me to claim, because we are on a monthly pay cheque, we are used to receiving money like that but most people who receive universal credit are poorer, they are paid daily or weekly. which is why from these leaked documents, it looks as though claimants are going to be able to continue receiving their old benefits for another two weeks at least, so that the timeframe for waiting for the first universal credit payment has been brought down. it has been brought down but if you are actually waiting five weeks, that is three weeks spare. if it all goes well and it is paid on time and we know that for too many claimants, it is not, so for too many claimants, it is not, so the government needs today to give a commitment that the benefits you are on will continue to pay until you have got universal credit in your hand. that is one thing. secondly, they have made an announcement that they are going to reduce the claw— back from announcement that they are going to reduce the claw—back from dead from 40- reduce the claw—back from dead from 40 - 30% -- reduce the claw—back from dead from 40 — 30% —— from death. careful reading shows that is only on any advance you get, not on any of the debts that they have found in the store and charging you for an under this proposal, some claimants will get no benefit because they are claiming back what are called historic debts and they are doing it out of the rate which means no benefit at all. your old party, is that the right way of describing labour? you are sitting as an independent. i don't know, universal credit is easier, rather than working out my position. labour's shadow chancellorjohn mcdonnell said a couple of weekends ago that labour, if they win the next general election, will scrap universal credit. you think that is credible? because so many people are now on it. is he really talking about rolling everything back and starting ain? rolling everything back and starting again? what chaos without cause?” think too many people have rowed back on that statement. the key thing is to say to the government, please do not continue this roll—out. there are key reforms which you must do. for example, benefit, your historic benefit, must continue until the new benefit is up and running and into your bank account. we are not going to claw— back account. we are not going to claw—back this account. we are not going to claw— back this rate account. we are not going to claw—back this rate of debt, pay debts by all means but at a rate which you can actually sustain. look at the self—employed, we are encouraging people into self—employment, the rules don't actually work like that. none of the roll—out will occur until about six major reforms occur and then, very slowly, we ought to see whether it works. naomi, you said that you began receiving universal credit while you were pregnant. i know your babyis while you were pregnant. i know your baby is three months old now, congratulations. how long did it ta ke congratulations. how long did it take for you to get universal credit sorted? so it was around six weeks originally and obviously, since the birth of my child, that then left me with a few more weeks to wait before the actual child element has been added as well now they have been joined together. and when you tried to get through on the phone or visit them in person, how much help did you get? it seems like the benefit has actually been introduced without the necessary training for that, so ido find the necessary training for that, so i do find myself giving them a call or even uploading a journal message and sometimes it takes a lot of time to resolve my issue, whereas there is not enough training and some people have to confirm it with a tea m people have to confirm it with a team leader or manager if they are giving you the right information, which is a shame, because this is our lives. we are grateful you dashed into the birmingham studio, thank you. andrew barry, who sits on the work and pensions select committee, thank you for that and frank field, independent mp, whatever you are! thank you. more than 2,500 organised crime groups are operating across england and wales — and police say children as young as ten are at risk of being drawn into them. gangs of criminals involved in drugs and violence are often targeting vulnerable young people to carry out criminal activities. in sheffield, a new team has been set up so that police can work with the council to identify children at risk. emma glasbey reports. early morning in sheffield, this police raid is targeting an organised crime group operating in the city. we're in! we are in! two raids are being carried out on houses in sheffield in the same time. at this address, two people are arrested on suspicion of drugs offences. we can't show you the faces of these officers because of the serious police operations they are involved in. the main aim was the two arrests, which we're happy with, and we can proceed with our investigation. we have got further evidence to put to them in terms of this, which we've been able to locate at the addresses. so you suspect there are links to organised crime here? yes, there are, yeah. these people, they are linked to other people that we're looking into at the minute. police say there are currently 20 organised crime groups operating in sheffield city centre, and children as young as ten can be drawn into them. children can be easily manipulated and easily exploited. the risks can be fatal. that's the reality of this circumstance. we have seen young men predominantly in our city over the last number of years, who have been involved in this type of criminality, murdered. haneef was expelled from school at 14 and selling heroin at 15. he now runs the youth charity in2change in sheffield, and warns young people about the consequences of crime. he says he was exploited when he was a teenager, and now sees other young people at risk of following a similar path. these older guys want me on their team, you know, they're buying me things, they're making me feel good. i remember looking at my school friends — and this is ironic, too — thinking, you suckers. you're going to school. you have no idea what the world is. look at us, we're with these big guys. and it was actually the other way around. they were so focused and i was being exploited. so it is very, very scary and, like i said, we are trying to raise awareness to young people, show them that prison is not fun, it's not glamorous, it's not sensationalised, nor are the streets, and these people are actually not your friends. police say one crime group currently operating in sheffield is connected to 30 children. when you add the children they mix with, it clear to see how easily young people can be linked to these groups. that's why south yorkshire police is starting a new team, working alongside the council. they'll try to make sure children at risk are going to school. they'll work with housing to move families if needed. they want to spot warning signs before young people can be recruited into gangs. it's about us being able to work with families as well, to understand any changes in behaviour, changes in patterns, or different things like increased money or different access to phones and clothes and things. so just different behaviours that we don't understand. there are concerns that budget cuts to many services working with young people could have contributed to putting children at risk. i think most people are seeing that support for young people, whether it's for mental health, whether it's for young people excluded from school, or support in and around schools and, you know, families, that's slowly diminished over quite a long period of time now. so it's no surprise that there's more young people out there who might be vulnerable to being targeted by organised crime groups. raids like this one will continue, as south yorkshire police targets organised crime. the big challenge will be stopping these groups recruiting vulnerable young people. we can speak now to hanif mohammed, who, as you saw in that report, was groomed by gangs and dealing heroin by the time he was 15. he now works with potentially vulnerable young people at the youth organisation in2change. here in the studio is rhiannon sawyer, from the children's society. you were expelled from school aged 14. things started to go wrong after that, tell our audience how and why you were groomed. well, it's a fascinating story because the demographics of where i live now here in sheffield are completely different. todmorden, a very small market town but once i was expelled from school, there was no support mechanism in terms of alternative education for me to continue and because i was that way inclined anyway, i was picked up by people much older than me who were involved in the criminal fraternity and rather than, you know, giving me good advice, they befriended me under the pretence that they were my friends when in actual fact, they we re friends when in actual fact, they were making me go on the streets, sel class a drugs, take the risk but in my own mind, because i was immature, i thought they were my friends and had my best interests at heart. how wrong i was. what was in it to you? obviously you say you thought they were friends but what are you getting in return for selling class a drugs on the street? watch the stand is there is no monetary game because the end they we re monetary game because the end they were giving me and them and they wa nted were giving me and them and they wanted back, it doesn't tally up. what i was getting was street cred and again, i was very naive than the association, knowing i am linked into people much older, people my own age were still going to school, very, very young but i felt as though it gave me a sense of authority and credibility on the street. in actual fact, authority and credibility on the street. in actualfact, i was authority and credibility on the street. in actual fact, i was very exposed and for rubble. let me bring in rhiannon. what do you think of this plan for education services, housing, immigration, youth justice, to try and stop people being recruited into gangs? at the children's society we welcome a multi—agency response, where you get all sorts of different people around the table. it is notjust a policing problem. police want other people around the table as well, education and youth services to provide diversion but also immigration, we have seen immigration can be a push factor for children. what do you mean? so families with no recourse to public funds who may be living in poverty and are scared to call the police for help because they are worried about themselves getting detained, that can be a push factor that having youth services there is really important because, like what was said, you can't get a child out of it without providing something else meaningful for them to do.” mean, hanif has his own example but is this a new thing or not? at the children's society, we would say it is not a new thing. we have seen an increased use of children over the years but this has been going on for a long, long time and we have been doing campaigns, work in westminster and on the ground work with missing and on the ground work with missing and exploited children prolonged time, trying to raise awareness of the issue. we don't want there to be moral outrage now as if it is a new thing, because it is not and we need to safeguard these children and should have been doing it for a long time. hanif, what do so to stop kids being pulled into criminal gangs? first of all, i welcome the multi—agency approach. i hope that also includes smaller charities like ours, because we hold valuable information ourselves, the services have been shaved based on our experiences. young people who are being groomed, it is essentially the same sexual exploitation, they think adults are interfering with their lives where in actual fact, they are being exploited, but they don't recognise the symptoms and signs, so i would say in lehmans terms, if someone i would say in lehmans terms, if someone is telling you to do something good, that is yourfriend. if someone is taking it down the wrong path, they are not your friends and have an all teary motive but you are too naive to see that. -- all but you are too naive to see that. —— all teary motive. if someone had said that to you when you were 15, people saying it, you wouldn't have taken a blind bit of notice, would you? this is where my mental had a vision, rather than use people within the community —— this is where my mentor had a vision, to use people in the community. these people in the community. these people have a vision, they are perceived as authority figures and he had the vision of using ex—offenders to shatter the misconception that young people have that crime is fun and it is cool and you are part of something, because it is coming from the horse's mouth and we feel that resonates with the young people we engage with. thank you, both of you, for coming on the programme, really appreciate your time. hanif, who was groomed by gangs and was dealing heroin at the age of 15 and rhiannon sawyer from the children's society. in the last hour, new figures show there's been a significant increase in hate crimes recorded by police in england and wales. the total number in the 12 months to the end of march was 17% higher than the year before. crimes of religious hatred went up by 40%, and more than half of them were directed at muslims. hate crimes are offences motivated by prejudice against someone's disability, race, religion, sexual orientation or transgender identity. but should other so—called "protected characteristics" be included as well? the law commission are now looking to include ageism and hatred of certain alternative cultures — such as goths or punks — as hate crimes. the communities secretary james brokenshire explained the reason behind the revised plan for tackling hate crime. we are publishing a revised and updated hate crime action plan today. this is to do with all forms of hatred, whether that be race, religion, disability, transgender identity or people's sexuality. but we're asking the law commission to look at the existing law, to see how it protects those particular forms of hatred, and equally seeing whether there should be an extension to deal with things like elder abuse and in terms of misogyny. we want to ensure the law is in the right place to underline the real action that needs to be ta ken where vulnerability or hatred is involved, and that's why we're intent on seeing if the law can be reformed, updated and made even better. let's get reaction from that. joining me now are professor mark walters, a professor of criminal law and criminology at the university of sussex, and jane vass, head of policy at age uk and sylvia lancaster, chief executive of sophie lancaster foundation. she set up the charity after her daughter sophie died in 2007. sophie and her boyfriend were attacked and at the trial, their attackers said they targeted them because they were goths — or moshers. sylvia now campaigns for attacks against alternative cultures to be classed a hate crime. so how do you react, sylvia, to the fa ct so how do you react, sylvia, to the fact that may be included after this review by the law commission? obviously very pleased and it is very interesting, you know, to read the rhetoric and to be part of it, actually. what difference would it make, do you think? it can make a massive difference. we have been working very closely with different police services and we are now having services on board who do monitor alternative hate crime and the people in those areas tell us how much say that they feel when they are out on the streets, etc, and they know they will be taken with seriousness, so it does help a whole community to feel safer and as pa rt of whole community to feel safer and as part of society as well. how would you define alternative hate crime? how would i define it? there are five strands of hate crime and there is no difference. you are attacked because you are alternative, attacked because of your race, because you are transgender, it is no different, it is exactly the same. jane, thank you for talking to us, from age uk. how do you react to the fact that ageism might be included when it comes to hate crime? we are very pleased that this review is taking place. it is something we asked for the last time the government looked at it and there is a gap in protection, because age is a protected characteristic, they call it, under the equality act, but hate crime legislation doesn't currently apply and that feeds and draws on some very ageist attitudes in the whole of our society around us, that somehow it is acceptable to dehumanisation groups of people simply because of who they are, not because of any other individual characteristics —— dehumanise groups of people. can you give us some exa m ples of of people. can you give us some examples of the hate crimes towards older people? some of the cases we are aware of, some of the cases in ca re are aware of, some of the cases in care homes that we hear of, and i must say there are many care homes and care homes that would not think of doing this but in one case, a ca re of doing this but in one case, a care worker took off her vest and shouted at this poor man, "do you like that, you dirty old man? " and sat on him. but we already have legislation to punish someone who does that. but there are also other crimes such as victimising older people for distraction burglary, simply because they are older and i think having it as a specific crime would send out a very strong message to, for example, the police, to sentencing authorities and to wider society that these sort of attitudes and the sort of the humanising that goes on isn't acceptable. what you mean by victimising older people distraction burglaries? for example, we hear many cases where their neighbourhoods, distraction burglars might stakeout neighbourhoods, distraction burglars might sta keout out neighbourhoods, distraction burglars might stakeout out a particular area, watch out for houses with older people in them and feel no compunction about particularly targeting those groups. that is burglary, that is against the law. y—word adding age to hate crime legislation stop that? —— white would. i think it would help with some of the enforcement, with sentencing taking this seriously as a crime that goes beyond just a crime to really the dehumanising of an entire group. professor mark walters, you are a professor of criminal law and criminology. what you think about potentially widening hate crime —— what do you think?” think it is a really important question, it has been on the cards for several years, now that we start to look at other characteristics that might be included under the law but i think we have to set out some careful criteria before we do that. we need to ask some questions and i think the first question to ask is whether there is prejudice based conduct or crimes which are being specifically targeted against a group of individuals because of their identity. and then from there, we need to ask a second question, which is is there evidence to show that there are distinct types of harms that are caused based on that prejudice motivated conduct, such as enhanced levels of fear or anxiety or anger or even shame? we need to review the evidence base and then once we have answered those questions, we can look at whatever other characteristics should be included. it is really important from the criminal law perspective that we ask those questions because there is a risk that if you expand there is a risk that if you expand the characteristics too far that you might undermine the potency of the term hate crime what the law is trying to achieve. some of the exa m ples we trying to achieve. some of the examples we have heard in our conversation, is there not already legislation that would protect those groups of people? well, there are certainly sentencing guidelines, which allow the courts to enhance a penalty, for example, if they feel that there is age related aggravation in the crime, or whether someone aggravation in the crime, or whether someone is perceived to be particularly vulnerable, then a judge can aggravate an offence, but it is important that we recognise prejudice motivated crimes in the criminal law, because it sends a very powerful message to society that these types of crimes won't be tolerated. it also sends an important message to groups of individuals who are being disproportionately targeted, but they will be protected by the state and the police and the criminal justice system will take it seriously. the questions of which groups should be protected, that is a slightly different matter and we need to re—review the evidence before making any firm decisions. thank you, all of you, for coming on the programme, appreciate your time. thank if your company as well and the getting in touch with the programme, we are back tomorrow at nine a:m.. bbc newsroom live is next. have a good day. she mist and fog, most of which clearing away. we've got some sunshine down in the south, particularly the south—east at the moment. strong sunshine coming through here. more in the way of cloud and showers moving through into scotland, strong wind in the far north—west. elsewhere, that cloud, that mist will clear, bright spells, feeling quite warm. temperatures getting up to 16 or 18 celsius. 21 or even 22 degrees in the south—east. tonight this band of cloud and rain with deliverable moves south and east, either side of that, some sunny spells. into wednesday, the best of the sunshine in scotland, northern ireland, northern anne western england and wales. temperatures reached 13 soldiers on wednesday. temperatures down to st germain protein in the south—east. reached 13 celsius. you're watching bbc newsroom live — it's11am, and these are the main stories this morning. ministers plan to further delay the rollout of universal credit, the reformed welfare system merging six benefits into one. hundreds of millions of pounds will be spent in order to help claimants. in order to help claimants. a crucial cabinet meeting is taking place as theresa may attempts to rally ministers at the start of a critical 48 hours in the brexit negotiations. as the brexit negotiations reached deadlock, theresa may calls for calm and a cabinet critic plays down talk ofa and a cabinet critic plays down talk of a revolt on designations. hate crimes have reached a record high in england and wales, with every category of hate crimes seeing an increase. facebook introduces a new tool to make political ads more transparent. the duke and duchess of sussex start their overseas tour

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