welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi. my guest today is the oldest head of government in the world. malaysia's prime minister, mahathir mohamad, came back to office in may after a shock election victory against his own former ruling coalition. the country has been mired in allegations of corruption swirling around the previous government, which has dented confidence at home and abroad. first time around, mahathir was prime minister for more than 20 consecutive years until 2003. can he leave his own chequered past behind him and lead malaysia to a brighter future? prime minister mahathir mohamad, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. extraordinary return to power in may for you. after 15 years of retirement, what made you want to return to government? people came to me frequently, groups of people, asking me to please do something about a government which they found not the kind of usual government. it's very oppressive, it's very corrupt. so you've got this big corruption case against the former prime minister, najib razak, in connection with 1mdb, which is the state's sovereign fund. $680 million missing. he says he was given that by the saudi royal family and that he's done nothing wrong. when there was a case against him when he was prime minister, he was cleared of all charges. you seem to think he's already guilty. well, he said that he got it free from saudi, but nobody gives that amount of money to anybody in the history of the world. how do you know? well, i have never read of anybody getting that kind of money. have you asked the saudis whether they did or not? well, the saudis, if they have given him money when he moved, leaves a trail of documents behind. the money was in the bank and then the bank sends the money over, and how did they get the money in the first place? so, properties connected to him have all been raided, $28.6 million in cash were found, plus 430 designer handbags belonging to his wife. you said it is obvious that he has stolen money. shouldn't you really leave all this to the courts? well, in the first place, the americans, the department ofjustice made that statement that the money was stolen from 1mdb. they wouldn't have made that statement unless they had proof, real proof, that it was stolen money. but it doesn't necessarily mean that the former prime minister, najib razak, stole it. anyway, should you not allow the courts to carry out the due process of law? enough for us to charge him and it is up to the court to decide whether our evidence is great or his denial is great. alright, but he has denied this, just to make sure you know that. 430 designer handbags, your finance minister lim guan eng says, "realistically, the hopes of recovering 30% "of the money misappropriated, that is all you can hope for." you will not go far by trying to revivify your economy with the proceeds of 430 designer handbags, are you? no, we are not talking about the handbags alone. we're talking about lots of money, billions of dollars, which has been stolen and is now nowhere to be found. all right. when you were prime minister you said, a couple of years ago, "there was corruption when i was prime minister, "but not on this scale." so, do you accept any of the blame yourself at the state of affairs that malaysia finds itself in now, mired in corruption allegations? if i have to accept the blame, then all governments must accept the blame. because this corruption, it's found everywhere to some degree. there is no country that can boast that it has no corruption at all. but did you perhaps set in motion something we see today? after all, you were ahead of this ruling coalition, which has been in power for more than 60 years. najib razak was somebody that you thought would be a good prime minister, so you were part of the system? no. the system may be the same, but the men is different. that system has had four, five prime pinisters before him, there is no accusation of corruption on that scale against all those four. but the system can be abused. what he did was to make — he used his authority to steal money. allegedly, as i keep on saying. najib razak says he is not guilty, he's entirely innocent. but in the time that you were prime minister, a book about you by the wall streetjournal‘s barry wayne, claimed that 100 billion ringgit, that's about tens of billions worth in dollars, went missing under your watch. that is a lot of money. at that time, they didn't prove i took any money. we did lose money because some of our people got involved in trading in currency and they lost money. it wasn't me, i couldn't take the blame for somebody doing, being corrupt. so, you haven't benefited yourself, personally, living a lavish lifestyle or anything like that? they have seen my house, they have seen my lifestyle and they know i don't live lavishly like the last prime minister. so, najib razak was somebody you had approved of, as i said, and some of his predecessors, like abdullah ahmad badawi and anwar ibrahim, of course, who was your deputy prime minister when you were in power. 1998, you pushed him out as deputy prime minister. it is said, because he was pointing to state contracts that were given to some of your cronies. that is what he said at the time. you thought, "hmm, don't want this man hanging about, really." we saw the case against him, he says trumped up charges of sodomy. do you really think he was guilty of sodomy? well, the courts decided that he was guilty and sentenced him to jail. it wasn't me. what he says about this accusation is his opinion, his explanation. whether it is trumped up or not is up to the court to decide, up to the prosecutors and the defence. but he suffered terribly. he had spent six years at first, in total, the best part of a decade, but six years at first in solitary confinement, denied access to his children, he's a father of six. even when he was released in 2004, when you were no longer prime minister, you continued your tirade against him. you said, "imagine having a gay prime minister, "nobody would be safe" — that is what you said. that is what i said at that time, but it was necessarily for me to work with him to oust najib as prime minister. so, both of us decide to forget about the past because this is far more important and we focus on that issue and nothing else. so, after he was released now, after a royal pardon, he told the bbc injune that mahathir mohamad told him that he had made a mistake and that he wants the chance to make amends. that's what you told him. that is his opinion. well, that's what he said you told him. i didn't tell him that. you didn't? i didn't tell him. but other people put words into my mouth because they want me to apologise, but i have never made any formal apologies to him. you don't regret what happened to him? well, i regret that he has to go to jail, but... not seeing his children? i can't take the blame for his jailing because it was decided by the courts. it was not done by me. but do you feel sorry for him that he went through what he did? well, i feel sorry for people who have done something and been sentenced to jail by the court. it's interesting, because this is his exact quote, he says, because he has reassured supporters of your transformation, because a lot of people were upset about what happened to him when you were prime minister, he says, "mahathir mohamad has proven his tenacity, "accepted past limitation, apologised and sacrificed "on his time and energy to raise "the dignity of the people and the country. " you've brought wan azizah, anwar ibrahim's wife as your deputy prime minister, so is all this not true that you didn't apologise or express regret? the matters were not discussed. after that, we concentrated on getting rid of najib. all right. so, he says he's also raised with you the fact that you have brought back some of the old guard into your government and he has said, "look, i'm concerned about this" and that you said to him, "i need these people because i need them to carry out the reforms "that we want to." if he joins the government and becomes the prime minister, that would be an old guard also. because he was with me as deputy prime minister for a very long time. so if i cannot bring back people who have served me, then i think i will have to rely on people with no experience. and these people whojoin me, they have the same opinion about najib‘s government. so they want to join together, form a coalition and contest against najib. so, all right, you're bringing back some of these old faces, as i said. muhyiddin yassin, the home minister, your son mukhriz is the chief minister of the state and daim zainuddin is head of the council of eminent persons, your advisors. so, these are some of the old faces from your old government. and when you were in power until 2003, the criticisms are that you launched vigorous attacks on the judiciary. you used internal security acts to repress and dissent and go against people who opposed you. so, i mean, should we be nervous? no. why shouldn't i say something against people who are against me, the opposition? and as for my son, he was not allowed to go into politics until i resigned, until i was no longer the prime minister. then only he became the chief minister, not during my time. i don't allow any of my children to go into politics while i was still the prime minister. you make it seem as though, because you were described as one of asia's strongmen and that your rule was sometimes repressive. let me give you an example. in the south china morning post, lynette 0ng, who's a professor of political science at the university of toronto, says, "i grew up in malaysia during the mahathir mohamad era "when the country was part of the coveted asian tigers club "that boasted strong economic grown, yet much of the prosperity came "at the expense of curbed political expression and restricted civil liberties. over a long period, the law and judiciary, instead of delivering justice, have been used by the government as a weapon against political opponents and dissidents." that is her opinion. has she done any study about how i have been accused of being a dictator? no. no dictators have ever resigned, i resigned and now i have come back. after more than 20 years in power. yes. that's a long enough time. well, we need time to develop a country. you know, it's not so easy just like flicking your fingers. all right. so, she's talking about using some of the laws of the state. i'll ask you this then — will you revoke the sedition act and the security offences act which have been used to suppress freedoms? the same laws were in existence before i became prime minister. the first, second and third prime minister used the same laws to detain people, but nothing was said about that. why is it that when i do it, it becomes wrong? i am asking you now because you're sitting in front of me on hardtalk. i put it to you, if i had a chance to talk to them i would ask them that too. i have to give you the background. but will you revoke the sedition act and the security offences act? well, the sedition act is still there. the isa, the international security act, which allows the prime minister of the government to detain people without trial was there when i was there, it has now been repealed. but we now have another law which is even worse to replace that law that was revoked. and that was done by my predecessor. the concern is that, as amnesty international said, that pa katan hara pan, your alliance of hope as it's known in malay, came to office on a wave of goodwill, amid hope that true progress on human rights was coming to the country. the danger now is that human rights will slowly recede as a priority the longer you are in power. is it receding as a priority? you seem to just bat it away. you know, journalists write things about what they've heard other journalists write. they don't do any investigation. we have abolished the isa but the previous government has enacted a worse law which allows him to detain people even without declaring a state of emergency. so these are the true facts. before journalists write, they invariably read about... this is not journalists. i mean, amnesty international has recently issued a review of your government's first 100 days in office and in may it reported, for example, that you are a defender of malaysia's retrograde affirmative—action which gives all sorts of benefits and advantages to the ethnic malay people in your country. you're about 32 million people, 60% are ethnic malay people. all sorts of advantages — housing, jobs, so on. why won't you stop this affirmative—action? why should i stop. the thing is, we are trying to correct the disparity of wealth between the malays and others. we have to bring up the malaysians to be as wealthy or as well off as the others. that needs correction because if you allow disparity to go by itself, it becomes bigger and bigger and then there will be tension in the country, there will be even fighting in the country. but it's creating tensions now with the other ethnicities in malaysia. that's what you say. look at the brain drain of ethnic chinese malays. they've left. about a third of malaysia's 1—million strong diaspora are highly—skilled migrants, many of them ethnic chinese. they're voting with their feet. yeah, because they're finding better jobs elsewhere. they are welcome to go. but many of them are very loyal to malaysia. yesterday i had lunch with them and they are all waving malaysian flags. even though they have been part of the diaspora of malaysians in other countries. so, except that your coalition has got, for example, the chinese—dominated democratic action party as part of your coalition but you can categorically say that affirmative action in favour of the ethnic malays, who you say need it, is not going to result in discrimination against malaysia's other ethnic communities? no, there's been no discrimination. because if you go to malaysia, you will find that the so—called victims of this policy are now the richest people in malaysia. right, so you talk about the richest people in malaysia, talking about riches in malaysia, the country is in a bit of a bad state. a very high level of debt. 54% of gdp. you've got a huge funding gap, you can't do all the things you want to do. trying to woo international investors and so on. but one very eye—catching policy you have made is to cancel $23—billion—worth of infrastructure products backed by china and also singapore. this has caused some concern amongst international investors that you have done this. you've referred to what you call debt colonialism on the part of the chinese. are you worried about the chinese being a colonial... i didn't accuse the chinese, i merely said that are other forms of colonialism and one of them was neo—colonialism which was coined by president sukarno. that's what i said, i didn't accuse the chinese of... sukarno of indonesia, former. are you worried about the chinese when you say and a new form of colonialism? is that who you're pointing the finger at? they're still coming, they still want to invest in malaysia. they've seen me, many of them have seen me, even recently, and they don't seem to be in any way angry with me because of what i said regarding colonialism. but do you see them as bringing about a new form of colonialism with their 0ne belt 0ne road infrastructure products around asia? no, not at all, one belt 0ne road is ok. but, you see, some people sell big pieces of land to the chinese where they are going to build a city which is very luxurious. it is for their people to come and live there, 700,000 of them. that is not foreign direct investment, foreign direct investment is about bringing money, bringing technology, setting up plants in malaysia, employing malaysians. that, we accept. so you don't want chinese people coming to settle in malaysia? no, no country wants other people to come en masse to their country and settle there. look at what's happening in europe now. do you think that's going to affect... they're telling all the syrians to go away because... that's not the matter. donald trump has built a big wall against mexico. is it because you don't want ethnic chinese living in malaysia to upset the balance? it's not chinese. even if it is sudanese, they are welcome. but if you come by the millions, sorry, no entry. you've also refer to the south china seas in your recent united nations speech and of course there is a big dispute going on there between china and some of its asian neighbours — malaysia, the philippines and so on. are you worried that china is flexing its muscles there? i explained that china has every right to go wherever they want to go but please, don't check on ships or prevent ships from passing through the strait of malacca and the south china sea, that is all we want. and could you see this escalating? it may escalate if people begin to irritate and provoke china. would you be one of those who might provoke china? well, somebody else who is comparable in size and strength. who's that? huh? who is that, the united states you're thinking of? you can guess, i don't have to mention the word. i'm not allowed... so are you saying there could be a conflagration military, one between the us and china over the south china sea because other countries aren't up to it? our policy is not to have battleships and warships in the south china sea because if people start stationing their warships there, there will be tension and conflict and it may result in a war. 0k. in your un speech, you also talked about the worsening plight of the palestinians, as you described it. while many would agree with you on that particular statement, they wouldn't agree with your stance onjews in the world. the israeli press, for instance, has described you as a proud anti—semite. would you accept that? there are many races in this world, i've said nasty things about them, they never accused me of being anti—this and anti—that. but the israelis are special. you cannot even mention that in the holocaust, it's not six million but four million who were victims of the holocaust. that is anti—semitic, why? let me tell you about what you said at a conference in 2010 according to reports in the british press. this is what you said about the jews. "even after their massacre by the nazis, jews survived to be a source of even greater problems to the world." in 1970 in your book, the malay dilemma, you said thejews were not merely hooked—nosed but understand money instinctively. these kinds of things are not acceptable, are they, prime minister? well, lots of people say nasty things about us, that malays are lazy and all kinds of things, but i didn't take it up against them. that is their opinion and i gave my opinion of things. do you stand by those sorts of opinions? if you are going to be truthful, the problem in the middle east began with the creation of the state of israel, that is the whole truth. but i cannot say that, why is it that you cannot... why say hook—nosed and good with money? it's not necessary, is it? they are hook—nosed. right...well, i'm sure that many people would really find that very offensive. many people call the malays fat—nosed. we did not object, we didn't go to warfor that. right, 0k. um, we're coming to the end of this interview. at 93, mahathir mohamad, with all respect, do you have the energy and vision to take malaysia forward and accomplish the reforms that are needed to set the country on a new path of prosperity? i try, i will try. and i think my last stint as prime minister did not result in people condemning me for not developing the country. they even called the country an asian tiger during that time. now i've been asked to do something, i will try. when will you stop? two years and handover to anwar ibrahim, as has been reported? yes, if that is what the nation wants, i'll stop, but i made a promise, iwill stick by my promise. two years and then you will step down at 95? yes. prime minister mahathir mohamad, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk, thank you. you're welcome. hello there. the weather for the next couple of days is looking fairly benign before something a bit more active appears during the course of the weekend, with some pretty heavy and persistent rain for some. the pressure chart, as we head into thursday, shows high pressure dominating the scene for most. this weather system will continue to encroach into the far north—west corner into the country to bring increasing breeze, cloud, and outbreaks of rain. further south, mainly dry bar the odd light shower around, bit of early mist and fog which should clear through the morning. much like wednesday we should see the clouds thin and break and some sunny spells. the wind lighter across the south, turning stronger across this north—west corner, where it will be cool. further south, given some sunshine, this warm air mass, it could make 17—19 or perhaps 20 degrees. heading through thursday night, the weather front in the north—west sinks further southwards and comes to a halt across central parts of the country. here it will be wet. to the north clear and quite cold. to the south, variable cloud and mild conditions. friday we will have a 3—way split. we continue to see this weather front through central areas, bringing outbreaks of rain to northern england and parts of wales. to the south of it, given some sunny spells, again that mild air mass is going to be quite warm, temperatures around 20—21 degrees. to the north of the weather front, scotland and northern ireland, largely dry but cool. 10—12 degrees. still some uncertainty on the weekend weather. it looks like this developing area of low pressure will bring a spell of very wet weather, primarily to england and wales, much of scotland and northern ireland, bar the off shower should stay largely dry on saturday with some sunshine. it could be very wet across parts of england and wales, particularly central, southern, and eastern england. up to an inch in spots. it will be quite cool generally across the board. cross the far south—east we could see temperatures in the high teens, before the cooler, wetter weather moves in from the west. on sunday, that area of low pressure pushes off into the new continent. a ridge of high pressure builds. we could see a window of fine weather before the next weather system makes inroads across the north—west corner of the uk. meanwhile, a clearance across the south—east. winds picking up across the north—west. elsewhere it should be fairly light. in the sunshine it won't feel too bad. temperatures ranging from 12 to 15 degrees. so the weekend is going to be a mixed one. there will be quite a lot of rain for some of us. there will be some spells of sunshine as well. it will not be a complete washout. i'm rico hizon in singapore. the headlines: rescuers say time is running out for hope of finding more survivors, after indonesia's earthquake and tsunammi. translation: she often asks, "where's my mum?" "where has my mother gone?" i tell her we're still looking for her, or i say, "your mother has gone on a long journey." authorities struggle to get aid to some areas. many survivors are thirsty, hungry and have no shelter. here in palu, food and waterfinally trickling in. at eight agencies told us trickling in. at eight agencies told us that arranging logistics, especially transportation, has been a major challenge. also on the programme:

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