now on bbc news — it's hardtalk. —— now on bbc news — it's hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur and this is munich — a city emblematic of germany's prosperity and small sea conservatism. —— small c. but right now, german politics looks anything but steady, stable and predictable. angela merkel‘s new grand coalition with the social democrats is very fragile and the biggest opposition party is the far right — alternative fur deutschland. my guest today is the influential md mp, peter boehringer. so how will his party try to exploit the weakness of angela merkel? peter boehringer, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. let's start with a big picture of german politics today. in some ways, nothing much has changed. here we are again facing a grand coalition led by angela merkel with the christian democrats and the spdt together. but actually, things quite different this time? we are not even there. we do not have that coalition. you are right, we will have that pretty soon. having said that, i would agree that it is no longer the same, we have now a coalition of official losers, both the sp0 and the cdu of angela merkel have lost more than 15% at the general election last autumn and in the meantime they have lost even more, you could say — they have lost more than 20% of the votes in 2013. it is of course a different situation, absolutely. what is your strategy in the md? are you going to be spoilers looking for a fight or will you try to be constructive? you are now, in essence, the biggest opposition party. we are. but fight is not an end in its own right, of course. so we are not fighting just for the sake of fighting, we are fighting for bringing germany back on a legal track where laws are not violated all the time, especially when it comes to euro rescue and the border controls and the immigration. we are also trying to bring back a little bit more direct democracy, that is that people have the say in the bundestag again, which they didn't have for a long time. your bedfellows in europe, i guess, the national front in france, the austrian freedom party, geert wilders‘ party in the netherlands. many people in your country and across this continent are extraordinarily worried about the power and influence you can now wield. actually, we are latecomers. in germany, it is very late that germany ultimately has come up with a central right new party, sticking to the values and virtues that were normal in europe up until the 1990s and 2000's. you are not centre—right, you are far right. i have just listed your bedfellows, they are all far right, many people would say — extremist parties. i would have to look into each and every one of them, geert wilders is completely different from marine le pen and from the austrian right, that is properly going too far now. in what way are you completely different? the way i see it. we — and in my personal opinion too, i haven't changed my political opinion in 20, 30, a0 years at all. i stick to a world where the nation state was undisputedly the natural state of affairs and nobody disputed that. no party, we have a programme and i was a member of the programme commission that the cdu had up until 2005 and even the spd had in the 1990s. we are not extremists, that was normal at the time, we did not change, society has changed and especially the media perception of society. i am not talking about media perception, i am talking about perceptions of significant people. let me quote one — charlotte knobloch — a former president of the council of german jews. she describes your party, the afd, as a destructive power which endangers democracy. i don't know what crystal ball ms knobloch has but she cannot see in the future if she has the evidence whatsoever... —— no evidence. she isjudging you on the words of your senior party members. well you can always put individual words out of context, i don't see it in that way. 0ur programme is not radical at all its absoutely bourgeois i would say in the positive sense of the word. we need to question against words that senior leaders have said. you would need to put that into context, it seems that has not been done. your main, biggest opposition, let's see if the tone is beginning to change. one of your senior figures — bjorn hocke... he is always quoted, even though he is not a seniorfigure. he is a seniorfigure, in his region. he is one of 16 regionalfigures. yes. there you go. he is quoted all of the time exclusively. maybe you know what i will ask you. whether you now distance yourself from his comments when he described the holocaust memorial in berlin as a monument of shame and he should have suggested that germany should not have put it up and no other nation would have put it up. he put it like that and it is a memorial of shame, it is one of the worst periods of german history and... you know what he meant. he meant it was a shame that it had been erected. it was a shame, i don't know what he meant when he said that no other country would put up a memorial for the worst period of their — of it's history. i wouldn't have put it in that way, but that is what he meant. last one on this style, it is important to find out whether now that you are the biggest opposition party that your language is going to change. as a party i will quote you stephan brandner. he is important because now as an mp he is now going to be the chair of the judicial committee. he referred to the green party as child molesters and cokeheads. he has been suspended from his regional parliament because of his outrageous behaviour. is it, do you think, wise to put him into a position such as committee chairman of the judicial committee? it was not my decision, it was the decision of others, the elder council of the bundestag. they put him in that position. nobody disagreed, not even the lefts and the greens themselves, nobody disagreed, it was only at the election proper, the initial meeting of that committee that it was disputed for whatever reasons. this is the first time it has happened in 60 years in german history, same for me. for no reason at all. we have seen former nazis in the 1950s heading those parties, we have seen former communists from the sed party in the 1990s. nobody was ever disputed and some people who got a few calls in regional parliaments and even me, who did nothing at all basically, were disputed just because we were afd members. this is the treatment the afd is receiving all the time. let me put it this way, do you acknowledge that the party is going to have to change and part of that change is going to be different style, tone and language and maybe some members of the party who were senior figures in the past will not be in the future? yes, i will agree there. but that is normal with every party. we have to become more professional but ultimately you have to understand that the tone and the brutality is only a reaction from our side against the brutality of the ruling class. they break laws all the time, it is us who give people who are really furious about developments in europe and germany a voice. sometimes, especially if you are not yet in a parliamentary position, which we had been up until well, 2014, you have to use a little stronger language, all opposition parties have done that in the past. yes, but you can't excuse some of the things said by figures in your party. i don't want to excuse everything. i'm i don't want to excuse everything. alright well let's talk a little bit of substance. let's talk about immigration and integration policy in germany today and let me quote you the words of a very seniorfigure in your party — alexander gauland, who got into an argument very recently with the german commissioner for integration — aydan ozoguz, who has turkish ethnic roots. now, ms ozoguz, had said — and this in a newspaper article — that a specifically german culture beyond the language is not identifiable. to which mr gauland said, this is what a german turk says, let's invite her to eichsfeld and tell her specifically what german culture is and afterwards she will never come back and we will be able to dispose of her in anatolia. you would probably — me as a german would have to explain what he means because i don't understand. in the translation i get the tone and sense of what he is trying to say. is that acceptable? to dispose of her? i don't even know of the word eichsfeld, is it acceptable that ms ozoguz — who you must be aware of that — the integration minister of the government does not percieve or recognise a german culture. how can you integrate into something which does not exist? that is what she started out with and this is a perfect example that our reaction is just, i would say, adequate. she is from hamburg and fully german. 0bviously she doesn't feel like hamburgian! as a citizen of hamburg and germany, she has a right to an opinion, doesn't she?. she is the integration minister, judge her on her time in office. your leader is basically saying that they will dispose of her in anatolia. a senior figure from cdu said that this language... the german word does not mean to get rid of her somehow. or not more than that. senior figures on the conservative right said that the language is disgusting and dehumanising. why won't you say that too? i would say the policy of the coalition government including him, is disgustable and has been disgustable for decades now, so we are reacting and giving those who are disgusted of that policy. i want to talk about economics. really?! 0n the specifics of immigration policy, what we see today is that there is a significant number of people coming into germany on those immigration flows from the east. the numbers were extraordinary, we know that many more than 1 million came in that period after 2015, but in the last year the figures suggest 187,000 came in compared to 280,000 in 2016, far down from the peak in 2015. so it does appear that the policies adopted by ms merkel‘s government in the last year or two have very much reduced the inflow, would you accept that? it is a relative comparison. comparing it to the levels of 2015, which were suicidal to any society. we had abandoned our borders at the time, just imagine. i am asking you that now in the current situation, where the government has changed policy and the numbers are down, what would you do that is so very different from the angela merkel government today? if you don't interrupt me, i could finalise my sentence. she invited everybody in september 2nd, 2015 by basically officially saying we are abandoning our borders, our police, the head of the german police wanted that order in writing. it was an executive order, no law was changed. but we officially abandoned our order and the word spread in africa and arabia within minutes. we would stop that, we would stop that invitation. it has stopped. no it has not stopped, absolutely, the official number that the government admits to is 220,000, not counting families of those refugees. we are talking about more than 500,000 people, illegal immigrants still. this is the current number. whatever numbers you have there are not right and ms merkel has not stopped it. that is why her polls are falling dramatically. so what do you do? you end schengen for a start, the free movement on people within the eu and do you also put up walls? i am not clear what the afd would do. it's all about mass psychology. we would not have to do that. we would stop that invitation officially and seriously and bring back, even by force, a few of those illegal immigrants and even if you only dealt with a couple thousand seriously that word would also spread into africa and into arabia and that mass influx would stop immediately. to what extent is this about muslims in particular? i notice that you have a policy to ban foreign funding in mosques in germany, to ban the burqa, the full—bodied veil. we are not the only ones, i guess. ban the muslims call to prayer in germany, put all imams through very vigorous state vetting. it's fair to say that to many muslim germans, this feels like some sort of war on their religion? well, you could argue who started that war as well? but yes, i would say, statistically, 85% of that immigration is muslims and it is mainly sunni muslims. so you could say it is also an islamic problem in our point of view. but it is not only that. abandoning its borders would even be wrong if only scandinavians came and ended up into germany. it is always a case, always a problem. so, well, what you havejust elaborated or numbered is not totally true. we accept the legal right to private confession of religious freedom, if you want, article four of our constitution. we fully accept that, no one disputes that with the afd. the individual muslims have a right to pray in private and public, but no right to put sharia law ahead of secular law and that is what many muslims are unfortunately doing, especially muslim groups. you have a background in economics and business. are you comfortable that these days the afd seems to find its strongest support and, indeed, its main raison d'etre in anti—immigration policies rather than the more technocratic anti— eurozone stance that actually the party began with? nobody can really say why people vote for us. at least 50% of the voters still vote for the anti—euro reasons i stand for. that is what i find interesting, whether you are comfortable... fighting against islamisation is a fight against illiberalism. islam and especially the islam of the strong religious people, muslims, is antiliberal, it is against women's rights and human rights. it is a fight for freedom, actually. it does not contradict in any way our fight for freedom that we have against the euro rescue and against the eu in total. you cannot sort this around and say that this is a minor group of our electorate and, well... whatever you call them, nationalists or chauvinists or patriots are the majority of our voters. you now have an important position in the german parliament. you chair the committee on the budget. that gives you real power and influence. how will you use it? it is a moderator ‘s role, a symbolic role if you will, to head a committee where i only represent a minority. i will be over voted frequently in almost all budget decisions. you are the chair. you can shape the agenda and have influence. it comes back to my original question about how the afd sees itself today in a fluid political situation. will you push very hard on issues such as future eurozone bailouts and the ambition that germany and france appear to have to go into a much deeper fiscal integration. will you do your utmost to block that? i would love to. but the bulk of money that was taken into the hands of the european union to permanently rescue the euro, every day, with 1—2 billion, that does not appear on our budget. it is not on the official german budget because it is money coming from the european central bank, guarantees spoken or given by the european government, by the german government especially but they are not automatically part of my budget. we are talking sums that exceed these huge budget i am heading. now it is more than 320 billion a year and it does not even appear. this is one of the scandals of this budget because the money comes from europe. it is future european tax money from european citizens, especially german ones. i understand that the afd really does not like the way the eurozone works and wishes that the deutschmark could be restored to germany. would you go further? would you want germany to leave the eu? do you look at brexit and think that that is something that we want and need in germany as well? i am sympathetic towards the british who voted for brexit. however, the world did not go under in britain, just because you left or are about to leave. so those doomsday prophecies that the world would go under if britain left did not come true. and i believe they will not come true. having said that... yes. do you think the german public has any interest in leaving the eu? they would if they knew how much money had been spent on the euro rescue. but whether afd existed or not, the euro would have a natural end of life. it is an unnatural currency, and one that has to be rescued every day is no currency. it is a contradiction in terms. it is a crash that will happen, it will happen in any case and if we wait too long with that inescapable decision then the euro can really become a question of war and peace. ijust looked at some opinion polls that showed that you and the afd, having won just short of 13% in the last election, now stand at 15% in the latest national polls. do you see yourself in the long—term becoming, somehow becoming partners of a post— merkel conservative party in germany or do you see yourselves replacing that cdu/csu? that is a question that is being heavily discussed in our party. to date, no—one wants to be in a coalition with us and we do not want to be in a coalition because they follow that supra—nationalistic agenda which we do not accept. they follow a planned central economic policy of the eurozone, which we do not accept and that includes the liberal democrats here in germany. to date we cannot do a coalition. things do change and i think they will change quickly. afd works today from the opposition lines into the government lines and if the leading class of those parties is being replaced, then it will happen quickly. then maybe we have a different situation. these parties will have to become, will have to accept the very idea of the nationstate again, which they have abandoned. 0ur good election results are only the result of us sticking to that idea. ultimately, and we should not forget this, your party scored 12.6% in the last election. i am telling you that your poll standing now may be as high as 15% but that is a very long way from becoming the biggest party in germany. if you are to do that or to really gather political momentum, it seems to me that you may have to consider changing some of your core messages and your style and your tone, particularly on issues concerning immigration, the german muslim community, and reaching out in a way that you have refused and failed to do thus far to show that you are not a racist party. how will you do that? i do not recognise your analysis. we are not racist. that is ridiculous and a false allegation. we are not racist. islam is not a race. so being critics of islam does not make you a racist. that is ridiculous. we have nothing against foreigners, not at all, but we have something against illegal people in our country who have no reason whatsoever. this is true in a strict legal sense for 98% of those who've come since 2015. we need to change a little bit here, and we need to change the tone. we need to be more professional but compared to 2013 when we were, in your words, a not so radical party, we have even gained, while the major parties have lost 20% injust four years. if you repeat that in another four years than we have a majority. we will see what happens then. you really think your party are the future of germany? i am not predicting that but that is what we are looking for. thank you very much for being on hardtalk. good morning. it looks like the weather pattern and weather type will change significantly over the week ahead. the past few weeks we have had fast—moving weather, a strong jetstream propagating across the atlantic with fluctuations between sunshine and it's noted that everything slows down over the next few days, the jet stream will weaken and change position and get more undulations. and it is under one of those that we induce this area of high pressure to build in the middle of next week. something we've not had much of in the past few weeks. not much sunshine around on sunday. we have some to the lee of high ground across parts of wales and the south—east and east anglia got sunshine as well as north—east scotland though for many of us, cloud rolled in and lot of cloud at the moment so no frost. two weather fronts on the scene as well, the first one bringing most of the current rain and drizzle. in between the two we have a pocket of mild air. get sunshine in the west this time that will boost the temperature. a change of fortune on monday. eastern scotland and eastern england are drab and dreary with a lot of cloud, rain and drizzle. dry and bright with a little sunshine especially in coastal areas and in northern ireland. ahead of the second band of rain that arrives later in the day. get some sunshine, 13 degrees in the east under the cloud and rain, only 7—9. those two bands of rain join forces to bring rain for england on tuesday, probably from humber southwards. heavy for a while, easing off in the afternoon but a strong wind will push cloud through the midlands towards the west country. further west and north in particular the air will be drier with more sunshine around and decent temperatures. 0vernight clear skies, light winds and the temperatures will fall away. the rain peters out towards the south—east. we will have some cloud at times across southern areas but elsewhere we will be back in the blue with frost in rural parts — the first of a few frosty nights to come. a cold start on wednesday but brightening up with nice sunshine around for many. more in the way of cloud through the day at times, wales, the midlands and southern england with sunny skies further north. by this stage the wind are light everywhere and you get some sunshine it will not feel too bad, but this temperatures will be around 7—8 degrees or so. some weather system threaten to come in from the north—west and bring back the sort of weather that we have been seen but they will be held at bay by the blocking area of high pressure so thursday and friday will still be drier. temperatures reaching perhaps 13 degrees at the beginning of the week and that mild start will turn chilly, particularly at night but it is becoming dry. this is the briefing. i'm sally bundock. our top story: a new russian doping scandal. an athlete at the winter olympics is suspected of failing a test. as poland's patriots make their voices heard, we look at how tensions between populism and the liberal elite highlight wider european divisions. and the winner is... and the stars are out for the annual bafta awards, we'll have the winners and those who missed out, later. is the world's trading system in crisis? as china hits back at us plans for more import tariffs, a high—level un meeting looks for a way forward.

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