the removal of robert mugabe as president of zimbabwe in november led to several mugabe loyalists going underground. the most prominent of these is probablyjonathan moyo, until recently a cabinet minister, key ally and close adviser to robert mugabe and his wife, grace. he has been described as one of the most hated men in zimbabwe, and is wanted in the country on corruption charges. jonathan moyo is now in hiding in self—imposed exile, and says his family is being harassed, and that his life is under threat. we cannot disclose his location, at his request. this is his first interview since his ousting of president mugabe. what has he got to say for himself? jonathan moyo, welcome to hardtalk. why have you gone into hiding, and not wish to disclose your whereabouts? it is because of the extraordinary situation that exists in zimbabwe, following the unconstitutional overthrow of the government in a military coup that took place on 15 november. and on that day, the military specifically targeted my house and myself, with a clear intention to cause harm. and that is why i am not in the country. although i left the country legally, i am not at liberty to disclose my whereabouts, because they have shown a very clear and determined intention to find me and harm me, wherever i am. you have talked about worries about your life, and threats and harassment, and so on. what is the evidence for that? it is common cause in zimbabwe. i have even put that evidence on my twitter feed. on the morning of 15 november, around 2:30am zimbabwean time, between 15—25 heavily armed sas soldiers came to my residence, and they destroyed the gate, destroyed the entrance, the door to my house, and shot their way into every room looking for me. but fortunately they did not find me, and none of the members of my family were there, because i had been forewarned the previous night that the military were going to raid my house, and i was advised by a very close friend that i should not spend the night at my house, and that i should take every member of my family with me out of the house. and the evidence, physical evidence, of what then happened to my house, has been there for anybody to see. all right, so where did you go then? where did you go? reports are that you went with your family to robert mugabe's mansion, and that they were allowed to stay, but you refused. is that what happened? that is false. the military people who wanted to harm me on the night of the coup don't actually know what happened, and they have been peddling falsehoods about these occurrences. what i would say, without putting in jeopardy many of god's people who were very kind to give me assistance, is that it is true that i took my family with me on the night 01:14 november to my colleague's residence, and my colleague being saviour kasukuwere, the then—minister of local government. and the amazing fact is that his house was also attacked about the same time when my house was being attacked, when i was there with my family, it was him and his family, and altogether there were 11 of us at his residence when the residence was attacked. all right, so that's where you went. we know that kasukuwere and you are one of the most wanted men from zimbabwe, and in fact the former finance minister is in prison. how did you manage to escape zimbabwe? you say you left legally, but on the other hand, you havejust described how the army and the authorities were coming after you. yes, when they came to attack saviour kasukuwere‘s house, at about 2:30am on 15 november, they subjected it to some 15 minutes of gunfire. and amazingly, after those 15 minutes, and they surrounded the house, the sound of gunfire just went silent. and we waited there for i think something like ten minutes, and there was no movement or sign of any presence of these special forces that had surrounded the house, and shot at it from every angle. and we then managed to get out of the house, and we were amazed that they were no longer there. they probably believed that they... so how did you leave the country? you have explained how the army attacked both your house and saviour kasukuwere‘s house, but how did you actually leave zimbabwe? and the other question i asked you is, why do you now fear for your life, since you have left the country? are you receiving more death threats where you are? and how did you leave the country? i left zimbabwean with the help of people who to me are angels, because they saved lives. and i am not at liberty to say who helped me, how they helped me, and how i left zimbabwe, except to say i left zimbabwe when president mugabe was the president of the country, and i left with the assistance of these people, legally. legally — i left the country legally. i managed to escape the net of the military people, and to be where i am, legally. so — but do you not think that, as i said, you know, you have got the new zimbabwean government saying they have got interpol — they want interpol to help them locate you, and a couple of others, the most wanted, some say most hated man in zimbabwe, because you were of course very, very close to robert mugabe. it is going to be a matter of time, isn't it, before you are returned to the country? well, fortunately there is something called international law. i want to make clear that, when i left zimbabwe, there was no warrant of arrest against me, and there was only a death warrant. and we have incontrovertible evidence, in black and white, documentation that shows what the intention of the junta in harare was, with respect to my security and that of my colleagues. they have, since the coup, started framing all sorts of political charges, in the guise of criminal charges. they say they were targeting the so—called criminal people, criminals surrounding president mugabe, but we now know that they were talking about political criminals. they have not come up with any crimes that rise to the level of charges that would warrant the interest or attention of interpol. these are people in pursuit of a political agenda. they believe that we committed political crimes by supporting president mugabe and not supporting them. so this is a very strange and unique definition of criminals, only applicable to zimbabwe. but, i repeat, there is international law. yes, everything will finally... there is also zimbabwean law. and the government has said it wants president emmerson mnangagwa — he wants to track $2 billion of state funds that have disappeared through corruption, and the reports suggest that you are wanted for allegedly stealing assets, under the systemic corruption that we know existed under the mugabe years. there is no such evidence they put anywhere. they are going after people who they allege were holding beans, rice... you are one of those. you are one of the people they say was involved in systemic corruption. let me just tell you what ibbo mandaza, a political analyst and former party member, has said. he talks about the new government's delicate handling of the old man, robert mugabe, but they will make an example of grace mugabe, and some others around her, even though the corruption goes much bigger. you were one of grace mugabe's key allies, part of the so—called g40 faction, which was trying to manoeuvre her as successor to robert mugabe, so you are really top of the list when it comes to the people who are wanted for this alleged corruption. first of all, it is not corrupt to support a particular politician to become any officeholder, whether it is vice president, president... it can't be a crime in a constitutional democracy. it is false to allege that there was an attempt to elevate dr grace mugabe, the former first lady. what is really going on here is that there is a group of people that sees itself as the stockholders of zimbabwe. and this group is led by emmerson mnangagwa, who is now president. but the controller of this group is general constantino chiwenga, who is the vice president now. but he is vice president because of a military coup. he has not been voted into that office. if you grant power by force, you then must find excuses to justify that grant, and this is what they are doing. you are questioning mnangagwa, the new president. world reaction has by and large welcomed him. rex tillerson, the us secretary of state — zimbabwe has an opportunity to put itself on a new path. borisjohnson — the uk will offer support to the new government if mnangagwa delivers reform. and angela merkel — germany will support you as a partner in your endeavours to start a new chapter in the history of zimbabwe. that is the reality you are facing now. you can criticise what has happened as much as you like, but that is what the world is saying. it has accepted this. yes — it is not the world which chooses the leaders of zimbabwe. zimbabwe has a constitution, and mnangagwa and chiwenga know only too well that they have come into power via the bullet, and not the ballot. the constitution of zimbabwe requires people to come into power via the ballot. there will be elections in 2018, this year. the people of zimbabwe will decide. if the world wants to be at odds with the popular will of the people of zimbabwe, that is up to them. we can only be concerned about the republic of zimbabwe, the views of the people of zimbabwe. the international conspiracy that supports a dictatorship, that has come to power via the bullet, is another story. it will not be experienced by the zimbabweans for the first time. well, he has promised free and fair elections in august this year. you can't hold free and fair elections. there has never been a single case of a government that has come to power via the bullet. you have talked of conspiracy, but what is it you want? because, in one of your tweets since mugabe lost power, you said to the new leadership in zimbabwe, if you and your lot think that this will last, then you ain't seen nothing yet, come rain or shine. are you plotting? zimbabwe, in spite of this coup, zeinab, it has come off age. we have a new constitution and this is constitution the people have made for themselves, and it has been broken, and it has been broken via a coup, and if anyone out there thinks zimbabweans will embrace the coup and change leaders, when they know the factors. right now, the cabinet of the republic zimbabwe is by the most feared people in this country. they're feared because they're associated with every atrocity that has happened, from gukurahundi to murambatsvina. the people of zimbabwe cannot be expected to embrace the most feared individuals. what do you want, a return to the status quo, a return of robert mugabe and grace mugabe as his possible successor? is that what you'd like to see? well, every thinking, right—thinking zimbabwean would like to see the return of constitutionalism and legitimacy in zimbabwe. it is not about any individual. it is about the rule of law. the constitution of the country has been subverted. and there has to be a return to constitutionalism. and we do not expect the same people who overthrew the constitution to restore it. and there is a lot that gets said about mugabe. i want to put on record that i, for one, am very, very happy, proud of the fact that i served with him and under him. and you backed grace mugabe, who is by and large not admired at all in the country. are you happy, do you want to see her still having chances of getting into power? zeinab, the fact that people, some people, who may in fact be a minority, have issues with doctor grace mugabe does not mean it is a crime to support her. no one can sustain that view. it is only the people who decide who will lead them through an election. you do not prevent an election through a military coup, simply arguing that you do not like grace mugabe. it is unprofessional for an army to do that. the zimbabwean army, led by chiyangwa, hasjoined the ranks of banana republics where military individuals intervene because they do not like individual, they lay that individual. they have reduced our country to a country of good guys versus bad guys. have you spoken to grace mugabe? yeah, i mean, as far as i am concerned... grace mugabe was not only the first lady, she was also the secretary for women's affairs in the ruling party, and that position, zeinab, is a very serious position. and as a leader, a top leader in the party, she was entitled, one, to discharge a programme and, two, express her views as to who should occupy whatever office. she was entitled to that. and in doing so... have you spoken to her? she has not been seen since the removal of her husband from power. have you spoken to her, or, for that matter, robert mugabe? no, i haven't, because of circumstances that have arisen. i look forward to doing so, especially to speaking with president mugabe. president mugabe is zimbabwe's pastor, and unfortunately we are not cubans, because our politics have been influenced by our colonial relationship with the white settler economy, and with britain. you said you're proud of having served under robert mugabe. you've talked about his legacy. his legacy, for example, is that three quarters of zimbabwe's population live on less than $5.50 a day. a quarter under the age of five, 27% of them, experience stunted growth. the trade union congress in zimbabwe says that there's 90% unemployment. i could go on and on. you were higher education minister. the fees for a term at a university in zimbabwe is $1,000 us a term. so it's become really something that only the privileged few can enjoy. i mean, that'sjust an example of the legacy that you talk about. no, that is not the legacy! that is what you are calling the legacy. you are identifying certain challenges that the republic zimbabwe has and you say that this is the legacy. no! that is a very strange definition of legacy. we accept, as we did even as we were in government, that there were challenges facing the country. we know what the reasons for some of those policy challenges are. but, unfortunately, the president put faith in the people who have now turned against him and who used his assignment of responsibility to, in fact, plot his downfall. but you were part of a government, as i said, which, this current government says now, you're part of this systemic corruption, we have heard press reports of your lavish home in harare. my home is a very modest in the neighbourhood. there is nothing extraordinary about it. it's described as lavish. i build that house when i was not in government. i worked very hard in order to get that house built. i am very proud. you people can create as many stories as they want. but the truth of the matter is you will not find a single case where i took a cent to build anything for myself almost family. are you talking to an intermediary about your own future and whether you can make some kind of deal on unity from prosecution? you cannot discuss those issues with an illegal regime. and an illegal regime is one that comes into power against the constitution, in violation of the constitution. that regime may be in effective control of the territory, but it is an illegal regime, it is an illegitimate regime. they kept saying they want to have elections in six months. we know that when mnangagwa and chiwenga went to morgan tsvangirai's house, morgan tsvangirai, the opposition leader in zimbabwe, they pretended that they were concerned about his health and so forth, but we know they wanted to negotiate with him to postpone elections for at least three years. all right, let's talk about you. they are afraid of elections. they do not want to have free and fair elections, let alone credible elections. what will you do, do you want immunity from prosecution, do you want to go back to zimbabwe? we would... every zimbabwean who cares about the country would like to see a return to constitutionalism. that is the fundamental. we must have the rule of law. the army deployed itself in zimbabwe when the constitution says only the president can deploy it. when you have people who have deployed themselves, ta ken over all the institutions of the state and government, you don't discuss immunity with them. but if you were to be offered it, would you go back, if you were to be offered it, would you go back? when the offers you immunity, you would be a fool to enter into what is called a faustian bargain? there are press reports that you asked the kenyan authorities for a bargain and this was refused. where would you go? these are false reports. there are been all sorts of reports on my whereabouts. i want to tell you, zeinab, what you know. you can't have people become stateless just because some individuals have grabbed power in their home country. that's not international law. we do not live in the jungle any more. so these questions will resolve themselves in the fullness of time. so how isjonathan moyo going to live, be forever a fugitive, on the run? where are you going to live, where will you seek asylum? i want to remind you, when i left zimbabwe there was no warrant of arrest against me. i did not run away from any warrant of arrest. i ran away, if you want to use those terms, from a death warrant, an unlawful attack on my house by military people. there's no one anywhere in the world who would sit there and say, come and attack me, come and kill me. you do not implementjustice by sending armed soldiers to attack a civilian resident. so, i'm not bothered about that question, because at some point the rule of law and constitutionalism will speak. zimbabweans are already demanding... they want to know what happened to president mugabe. he was humiliated by the very same people who were saying they want to restore his legacy, who were claiming to be targeting others around him when, in fact, they were targeting mugabe and they targeted him in a very humiliating and totally unacceptable way. zimbabweans, forget about me, zimbabweans in the country are asking fundamental questions about what happened, why it happened and they want to see restoration of the rule of law, constitutionalism in zimbabwe, and they will get it. jonathan moyo, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. hi there. i'll be the first one to admit the weather has not been exciting in the last few days. take yesterday, many of us had cloud, mist and fog. just a few cloud breaks, the best of these in south—west england and wales and across western scotland. they could remain there for friday. the cloud was low enough to touch the top of the tallest buildings in london. more of the same for friday. here's the picture. low pressure in greenland, high pressure near finland. a long way away from the uk. and that means, for us, there is barely a breath of wind. that is why the weather is not changing a great deal. for many of us, a cloudy start. yes, there will be a few mist and fog patches dotted around. some of the worst of these in northern ireland and the somerset levels. poor visibility. down to below 100m in a few places. hill fog elsewhere. don't expect any major changes elsewhere. a few sunny spells coming through. i think the best of these in parts of south—west england and wales and running up into western scotland. perhaps northern ireland as well. but across central and eastern england, that is where the cloud is likely to be rather thicker. there could be occasional brighter spells. but on the whole, quite a cloudy day. it could even be thick enough for the occasional spot of drizzle from time to time. heading through friday night, little overall change, cloud in central and eastern areas. to the west, there is a change. this atlantic front begins to slowly move through bringing rain towards the end of the night towards northern ireland. that takes us to saturday. the start of the weekend. this is a slow—moving weather front. stuck underneath this band of rain, it could rain most of the day. some coming and going. further east, cloud. bright and sunny spells. perhaps more of these in east anglia in south—east england than we have seen. sunday, another pretty cloudy affair. this band of rain eventually will swing south and eastwards as we go on through sunday night and into monday, clearing out of the way. then, the weather gets more exciting next week, you will be pleased to hear, as cold air comes surging back in. it could be turning much colder. it could be windy, perhaps very windy at times, quite early on in the week. and cold enough for some snow, especially in the north, on the hills, and especially on northern hills. that's your latest weather. this is the briefing, i'm samantha simmonds. our top story: president trump's planned visit to the uk to open the new us embassy has been called off. deadline day. chancellor angela merkel holds more tough talks to find a coalition deal with germany's second—biggest party. new pictures of the terrifying moment a river of mud hit a town in california. the search for the missing goes on. and coming up in the business briefing: 0pen banking revolution. new rules will give consumers control of their own financial data, and challenge the power of the big banks. also: crude comeback. i will be finding out what is behind the recovery in oil prices,

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