Transcripts For BBCNEWS Newsnight 20171212 : comparemela.com

BBCNEWS Newsnight December 12, 2017

I interviewed the Prime Minister. She promised the residents they would be rehoused within three weeks. Two weeks before christmas, more than a hundred households are still in hotel rooms. So where have things gone wrong . The council has allotted huge sums of money for rehousing kensington and chelsea have set aside £235 million to secure accommodation for the people made homeless by the fire. So why is it is stalling . Justice for grenfell nojustice no peace this protest outside the Council Offices last week was only a fraction of the size of the ones in the summer. They are living a second trauma because theyre not considered worthy enough to be given housing. The focus of this is to demand permanent new homes for the survivors. There are still people stuck in hotels with their children. Their children are in a room next door. It is not an adjoining room so the children will sleep with the parents. So then you may have a family of five in one room. Because actually they dont want their children in the next room, they want to keep an eye on them. It is a really horrible way to live. Christmas is coming, theyre going to spend christmas in hotels. Not much has changed on the tower itself, but what has the council done for the residents who survived this disaster . One fact that has hugely complicated matters for the council is that the number of houses or flats they are looking for has gone up by more than 50 since the tragedy. As groups of people who were housed in one unit inside the tower have elected to be rehoused in two or sometimes more units outside. That means what was originally a search for 138 new houses or flats has become a search for 210. Of that total just 45 households are now in new, permanent homes. 5a are in temporary accommodation. And 111 are still in emergency accommodation. That is typically hotel rooms. That figure includes antonio roncolato. He was one of the last people to be rescued from grenfell. He was trapped on the tenth floor of the burning tower for five hours. He shared his flat with his adult son. They will now be rehoused separately. In terms of finding permanent accommodation, its not easy. And obviously we have had our assessment with the council, with my housing officer. And there are some requirements that we have requested and i understand that it takes time and it takes a little bit of. We have to be patient. And also considering that moving into a place is one thing, moving into a place which will have to become your home is another thing. So its like, ok, if i move into a place, it has to be something that i can turn into a home. And i will be there for the rest of my life. So therefore i might have to turn down one, two or three. I dont know how many. Are the council putting any pressure on you to accept anything . No, you know, theyre lately, for the last two or three months, they have been very active in showing, in trying. And i must say i appreciate that. But in the sense of pressure, no. It is understandable that antonio and other grenfell survivors dont want to be rushed. According to one housing charity, this is straining a system not used to providing choice. We have a real crisis in Affordable Housing in this country. And we have a social housing system that doesnt give people any choice. Once you actually start asking people what they want, you then have to deal with the fact that actually it cant be delivered. So i think what we are seeing is a system that is not used to any element of choice and is very disempowering. Suddenly when youre trying to empower people within that system and give them some choice, the system simply cant cope. To provide choice, the council has put aside £235 million to buy new houses and flats for the survivors of Grenfell Tower. That works out at £1. 7 million per original household. This doesnt include the cost of hotels, new furniture, resettlement grants and writing off rent and Service Charges in the new homes untiljune 2019. These are being paid for from another budget. This is the living space and the kitchen. And then through here youve got two bedrooms. The council showed us this place that they bought for a grenfell survivor. Its in a low rise block of privately owned flats not far from the tower. The director of housing wouldnt tell me what they paid for it, but similar flats seemed to go for around £850,000. We still do have people in hotels, thats true. Weve got 28 families with children under 18 in hotels. Now, 16 of those have accepted something, so they will be moving on and we are trying to support them at the moment to do that as soon as possible. But we have got 12 families who havent accepted an offer. So were working as hard as we can with them to try and get something that meets their needs and their preferences. Because of what people have been through, most people want to live at lower floor levels. Most people would like a bit of outside space. A lot of people want to be in the North Kensington area, not everybody. And we have got to meet all of those desires with the properties that we are acquiring. But that doesnt include residents of the surrounding blocks who were evacuated during the fire. The blocks themselves were undamaged although the heating and hot Water Systems were destroyed. They have now been replaced and two thirds of the residents have returned to their homes. But 109 households dont want to go back. Some of them dont feel ready to return. For example until the tower is wrapped or some of those kind of decisions. So what were saying to those people is we will rent you a property in the private rented sector locally in kensington and chelsea for you to move into whilst you take stock of what you want to do next. And then we will work with them quite intensively over the next few months to see what they want to do. Do they want to return home. 0r obviously we have got a consultation out at the moment around awarding people points for priority on the housing register. So actually if they feel that they cant be on the estate, that theyve got the opportunity to move. But that is not enough of an assurance for thomasina hessel. She shared a hotel room with her son jesse for six months. She doesnt want to go back to her flat near the base of the tower, but doesnt feel there is enough certainty of what will happen in the long term to move out of this hotel room into a temporary flat. They have not made me any offers, first of all. And they have made some of my neighbours offers and insisted that they make decisions based on this draft housing policy that they have going. And i think that is unfair because it is a draft policy. Anything can change so anyone making a decision now is making it on something that may not exist in a months time. So that is unfair. Their reason for doing that in my view is because a, it saves them money to get people out by christmas. And b, it makes them look good. Is part of the problem though, that in the initial rush to help, residents were led to believe that rehousing would take place at an ultra fast pace . Heres the Prime Minister on this programme injune, two days after the fire. Other things we will do as well to provide support for people, to ensure they are rehoused within three weeks. Today a group of survivors and the bereaved from grenfell arrived at downing street to remind the Prime Minister of this commitment. We were given promises by theresa may that they would be housed in three weeks. It is coming up to christmas, it is six months. Thursday will be a telling day. You know, if she is coming to the memorial service, we hope that she comes with a message of positivity and you know, things that have been accomplished rather than empty promises. Nothing can change what happened here six months ago. Rehousing those who lost homes and loved ones is only the start of trying to repair the damage. But it is clear there is still a long way to go, even on that limited objective. David grossman there. Lets get some reaction to what weve just seen and look ahead to the inquiry which has been meeting for the first time to discuss the parameters and how best to effect it. Emma norris works at the institute for government and has been working on how public inquiries can be carried out most effectively, Cyrilia Davies Knight is a solicitor for 13 of the Grenfell Tower families. What do you understand from your families is the hold up with the housing right now for them . Good question. Actually im unclear as to what the delay is with the housing. A lot of my clients whom i represent remaining hotels, in temporary accommodation, and its a lot of my clients whom i represent remaining hotels, in temporary accommodation, and its unclear what the issue is with rehousing them. The money is there. This huge sum of £235 million which has been put aside by the council. Are the people you are representing very keen to get into their new houses . Where is the delay, do you think . Certainly my clients are keen to get into their new houses. I represent vulnerable, some bereaved, and some survivors, and indeed they would like to be rehoused as quickly as possible. However, they are not prepared to accept accommodation that is inadequate or substandard to what they had. Do you think they are being offered. It was very hard to see. The apartments we were seen inside of, something around £850,000, they looked incredible, but you think what is being offered is substandard . There needs to be a thorough means tested assessment. So that the clients i represent are given appropriate accommodation for their needs. Many of my clients, as i said, are vulnerable and traumatised. And the delay in being rehoused isnt helping them. Im not sure what the delay is but i do know it is unhelpful. David was explaining the numbers. What started off as 138 families needing to be rehoused has now become a search for 210 households because they have splintered off. Antonio said his son wanted his own house. Some people want to move out from parents or other relatives. Was that always going to be part of the process . How does that work in terms of these increasing numbers . I can only speak for those i represent. What i would say is that it is absolutely paramount that those affected by this disaster are rehoused as quickly as possible, as promised by our Prime Minister. Emma, look ahead for us to the enquiry, there is a lot of momentum at the beginning of these things. I guess the key is that some of that actually drives through to results, right . I think thats right. Youve picked up on one of the key issue straightaway. A successful enquiry isnt about what happened at the beginning of an enquiry or during, but afterwards. Often that is where some of our institutions are at their weakest. We need to see the up with a powerful set of recommendations for change. But we also need to see the Government Act upon them, and that is often where enquiries fall down. As an enquiry got a dual role . I wonder how much of an enquiry is catharsis and how much you need to see things. Good question. The enquiries are there to answer three questions. What happened, who is responsible to some extent, and what can we learn from what happened. Those first two questions speak to that emotional catharsis you mentioned. At the moment the community is understandably mistrustful of the enquiry process. It got off to a rocky start. There are some signs things are getting better. The chair has appointed a Community Engagement specialist to the panel. But we know from past enquiries the dangers of failing to listen to victims and families. Hillsborough, for example, examples of when there were failures to put the victims at the heart of the process. Youve seen enough of these enquiries to know that they often dont deliver, right . How many times do we get to the end of an enquiry, the victims seem unhappy, the public doesnt trust them, there is no sense anything is going to change. Do they work . Public enquiries are one of the only tools we have to look independently as some of the worst tragedies that we experience as a society. We need to seek government be far better in setting out how to implement recommendations and Parliament Following up on that. Looking back at the 68 enquiries that have taken place since 1990, only six have received full follow up by parliament. We need to do better than that. Looking at what is coming in and yourfamilies, is there a sense of expectation . I think my clients are distrusting and expectations are quite low. I have to say. I think that housing is one of the key points that needs to be addressed first and foremost in order to help rebuild the trust and confidence in the process that they are subjected to. I think other things can be done to help rebuild that trust. There needs to be a commitment to psychological one of our fire and well being. Psychological welfare. This needs to start sooner rather than later, the enquiry. There needs to be equality when the enquiry comes to start. I wonder if you also think that the enquiry is up against a particular difficulty when social media can spread a sense of not trusting the right person or questioning the judges or the figures. It can be very useful tool but also exacerbate worries and concerns or perhaps they do not know. That is why its important to make sure youre involved in the community and with the victims properly. Looking at the hillsborough inquest, they gave the brive the opportunity to talk about the people they had lost as part of the inquest process and i think adopting a similar process in this enquiry would make sure that the victims are at the heart of it. So there is a sense of them and us, are you going into this thinking youre doing battle almost . I would not say were doing battle. I think it is clear and it has been made clear that my clients feel they have been, their voices have gone unheard, they have not been listened to or properly engaged thus far. There are distrusting. They want the truth, they want justice and accountability, they want the answers. There are many ways that can be achieved. That could be achieved through disclosure, disclosure needs to take place quickly of documents from the tmo, from the council, so they can feed into the process. They have lived this, this is their lives, their reality. Thank you both very much. And more on Grenfell Tower six months on over the next couple of nights. Environment secretary michael gove has promised to make brexit work not just for citizens but for the animals we love too. The conservatives have been talking about animals a lot recently. The beavers that will be released into the wild. The puppies that will no longer be smuggled. The rare sea birds to be saved by an extension of the blue belt. Today mr gove promised higher sentences for animal cruelty, and to reflect animal sentience their response to pain in law. So why this concentration on Animal Rights, right now . Is it about more than just, well animals . Some people call us the nasty party. When theresa may spoke of the danger all those years ago of being perceived as the nasty party, she struck a chord notjust with voters, but with those in her own party who realised that perception of niceness was paramount. It was no coincidence that David Cameron as he rose to power spent time with husky dogs in the polar regions. The conservatives, you see, were modern and compassionate and environmental. They even knew about veganism. They were, the theory ran, more palatable to younger, more liberal metropolitan voters as well as their rural base. But the austerity years took care of all that. The huskies were put out into the cold again, in came badger culling, a free vote on fox hunting, the green went true blue. The viral story of the last election was a failure by the conservatives to effect a manifesto promise of a ban on ivory imports. And last month a misunderstanding got reported and shared by millions, suggesting the conservatives did not believe animals could feel pain. Had even voted against it. Even though the story was quickly disproved, the damage had been done. The tories were back to being in some voters minds the nasty party again. The damage control was instant. And in the last weeks and months weve seen defra roll out policy after policy that shows the conservatives love of animals. None so enthusiastically perhaps as michael gove who sincejune has announced he will be saving trafficked puppies, freeing beavers, looking after animals in slaughterhouses. The list goes on. So does the party seem more caring . Are those younger, metropolitan liberal voters even listening . Or is the old image of the tory out hunting to attempting to move on . Im joined by Deborah Mattinson the Founding Partner of the research and Polling Organisation britain thinks and jack elsom who is the chair of the london universities conservatives. Lovely to have you both. What is going on, does being nice to animals actually win votes . Im a young conservative voter but it would be pretty foolish of me to come on here and say the conservatives do not have a problem attracting young people. Deborah bull tell you that im sure in a minute. But in my conversations notjust in conservative circles that universities but with labour and lib dem friends, it is not the hot topic of debate at universities. It is mainly towards brexodus tuition fees. So do you mean that people think about it but not at the top, or do not talk about it at all . Really not at all but i do think having said that what michael gove said today will be able to unite students whether it is recognising that animals can feel pain or good news for animals about how sentences for maximum abuse. Well this is interesting, in university talking about these things and yet we are told that the stories that went viral during the election, that is the story about not fulfilling the pledge on the ivory ban and this one on the sentience of animals, how are we getting this wrong. To say is not the hot topic is the understatement of the century, it has never made more than 1 of the issues. As any people tell you you have a small number of people who care a lot about Animal Rights. In a way what is not to like but actually it is not what drives Younger Voters or older voters for that matter. But the point about the election, fox hunting for example, the reason why that was noticed was because it struck a chord and it spoke to the tory brand and is said to people this is what i believe the tory brand to be about. Back to nasty. Unf

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