Comedy is subversive. It finds laughter in dark and difficult places, but when it goes wrong, well, things can get ugly. My guest today knows that. Kathy griffin is an american stand up comedian probably best known for being pictured last may Holding Donald trumps severed head in her hand. The trump head was fake, but the outrage was real, from the president , the tv network which fired her, the fbi which investigated her, and the public which heaped abuse on her head. What was, and is, Kathy Griffin thinking . Kathy griffin, welcome to hardtalk. Hi, steve. Your stand up show, which you are taking around the world. Yes. Its funny and its frank but to many people its also shocking and to some its offensive. I wonder whether you carefully calculate how to offend . I do. Im an expert in offending people. Ive offended you just in the make uproom alone, because first of all, i cant believe someone married you. But good luck to her. Anyway, when i took that photo, one of the things that struck me was that people actually were saying that it was a severed head, so what i like to talk about it in my act is, i make a joke of it as if i went to the severed head store which doesnt exist so the outrage is faux, in my opinion and, you know, i dont have a single day of paid work ahead of me in my own country and im a work horse. Because of the reaction. Because of the reaction. Lets get to that in a minute but lets not start with the reaction, lets start with the action. I thought i was the guest but really, lets do the show your way. No, no, no, im. Dont man splain to me, dont you man splain me. Well, lets start with the action of choosing to go into the photographers studio with that mask and that ketchup. Let me just stop you and say, one thing i will say thats difficult is the photographer, tyler shields, has the copyright and i have no say in the copyright, so ijust have to say, because i trusted him i kind of got screwed that he can make however much money from that image, which will sort of stay with me forever, so theres that, everywhere i go. And your biography and, frankly, your epitaph probably be about the moment you decided to stand with. Yes, people at airports want me that pose with their head and i say i cant. You know, as i posed the question, in the introduction, what were you thinking at that time . You must have known that you were crossing a line here. Yes, of course, that is a comedians job, thats what we do. I feel, if you dont cross the line or i like to move it and then cross it then what are we doing . What am i going to do, jokes about the difference between puppies and kittens . I mean, there has never been a president like this in history. Theres never been a president who deserved to be shamed so much and i really think the reason he had such as reaction, and his grown children, although i lovingly call them eddie monster and date rape i dont know if theyre fully formed human beings. Lets stick with your thinking. As we tease out your career, i think it is important to understand how you make decisions. There you are with Donald Trumps head and you adopt a pose which, of course, is reminiscent of those jihadists, those so called Islamic State fighters. Or perseus and medusa. Well, perhaps. A lot of iconic imagery in comedy has been done. Theres a movie called, 8 heads in a duffle bag with david spade, i believe theres a scene in death becomes her where they roll Meryl Streeps head down a bowling alley. So this is all open for interpretation. But i want to be clear, none of this outrage would have happened if donald trump did not get freaked out that a girl shamed him. Thats what this is about. A girl shamed him. Well, yeah, but you had depicted the beheading of the commander in chief and america has sensitivities about the security of its president not without good reason. You have crossed so many lines, i cant even count them. Ijust wonder, when you talk about not being confused and being clear about what you were doing, you then, after all of this reaction, issued an apology, so are you sorry are arent you . I am not sorry. I take the apology back 1000 . And the reason i made the apology is that, when the image went out, i really thought people would think it is just kathy doing another shocking image. Ive done many throughout my career. And i say shocking things, when i won my first emmy, i got in trouble because i said suck it, jesus, this award is my god now and you know, the conservatives took ads out in the papers and thats what they like to spend their time and money on. So yes, i knew what i was doing, and the reason i apologised is my good friend, rosie odonnell, the pre eminent expert by the way on being trolled by this fool, the accidental president , as i call it, you know, he has been trolling herfor io years and she said the words, what if daniel pearls mother saw this and then. Daniel pearl, of course, the americanjournalist who was beheaded in pakistan. Yes, and so when she said that, i said, oh, my gosh. And i said, look, ive never apologised for a joke but i get it. Now, what i need to be clear about, though is that, number one, the apology was not enough the trump psycho still came after me and the president was thrilled to have something distract the country away from russia investigation and all these other improprieties, shall we say. So im very aware that i, like many other folks, have been used as a tool to distract from his actual incompetence. I also believe. When you say i went too far, i apologise, i beg for forgiveness, that was all completely insincere . You were just. No, it was sincere at the moment. Worried about your career. No i am not worried about my career. I have two emmys and a grammy and in the guinness book of World Records for writing and producing more stand up comedy and specials. Because of tmz. Why report those in real time, though . Tmz. Com reported the cancellations of my american tour 50 cities in real time. And also i want to point out, i have been to iraq and afghanistan, has donald trump . Ive performed in a war zone and i performed on a mortifier so i know exactly what im doing and im more of a patriot than he is on his weakest day. You seem to believe that donald trump has, in a way, organised a plot against you. You seem to be accusing him of being behind the secret service investigation. Department ofjustice. The fact that you were briefly on a no fly list. Um, first of all, im still on the interpol list. I was detained at heathrow. Ive been detained in every single airport on this tour. And you seriously think President Trump, sitting there in the white house, has time to say, oh, lets get Kathy Griffin. Are you not aware of this guy . Yes, this is what he does, he doesnt govern. He worries about me and colin kaepernick. Do you find donald trump funny . You know, ive known him for so long, and thats why im proud of this tour because i have had this trump material, honestly, for like 20 years, because ive known this orange fool, the accidental president , i call him, for so long. But you know, the americans never really take him seriously. This guy shows to the opening of an envelope so i have met him several times. And i was seated next to him one, at a four hour event, and he turned to me and said, so, youre a female comedian, and i said, yes, next thing you know were going to want to vote. It went right over his nest. Hes an idiot. Hes a moron, dont give him any credence or credibility. Whether you like him or hate him donald trump is a pretty extraordinary president , he is governing in a way. Careful. No individual has governed before. What do you mean by extraordinary president . Whether going on stage and slapping him off is actually comedy . Slagging him off. Well, i have personal experience with him. My current show its not just jokes about trump. Youre coming to see someone whos actually had interactions with him. And the idea that now he is accidentally the president through cheating etc, is sort of comical to me. Now, it is frightening as a citizen but as a comedian, yes, its a gold mine. And i have personal quotes from him. One time, when i was doing new years eve on nbc, before cnn, carson daly goes, in like a throwaway, do you want to interview the trumps . And i go, only melania. Oh, that was heaven. You were fired by cnn. You used to do their new years eve show, with anderson cooper. For ten years. Yes, ten years and now its all over. Do you feel bitter about the way, not trump or even the secret service and the fbi have treated your. I just want to say, a two month taxpayer funded investigation which has never happened in the history of the United States so, if nothing else, respect the history of the fact that youre looking at the only woman, an american citizen, who the entire white house, oval office family, fox news and the department ofjustice and this isnt donjunior Eddie Munster in his words, we want to decimate Kathy Griffin. So it wasntjust ending my career, it wasnt just the Death Threats to my mother, in her retirement village, to my sister as she was dying of cancer, in the hospital, yes, it is a campaign its all very well documented. The fact that you lost your sister in the middle of all of this. That is why i shaved my head so i know i look like eleven, from stranger things. You mean in solidarity with your sister . Yes, of course. Many of my Death Threats were dear bald dyke i wished you died of cancer instead of your sister. So this is like a daily thing. This does sound the most incredibly painful moment. Its unprecedented. When your sisters dying. Of course. Ijust wonder, why on earth you are now back on the road, doing stand up comedy, engaging with the very people whom you say tried to bring you down. You are still getting i read it the vile abuse on twitter because, frankly, you still engage. Well, its notjust on twitter. You engage in twitterfeuds. Hang on, it is two ways. What comedians dont . Name one comedian who doesnt. The point is, why do you want to play this game anymore . Its my life. They are playing with my life. He is trying to stop me from making a living. I want to be a case study. I am very clear, the reason im doing this tour is because i want younger women, younger people of colour, younger lgbt folk i dont want this to happen to anyone else again. It doesnt matter who the president is. It doesnt matter what your party is. This should not happen to an american citizen. My point of doing this tour, believe it or not, it is not about me, i want younger people to look and go, alright if they couldnt take that old bird down, then they wont take me down because this should not happen to an american citizen. The Death Threats, are they continuing today . Yes. How do you handle them . I mean, do you take them seriously, are they just water off a ducks back . To be honest, i am all over the map. I will have days where im just in a ball crying, and then ill have days where i am just defiant. There is one which i read on stage. Cause its so over the top. A lot of the trump fans are not into the grammar so much, and sometimes it gets so crazy it is actually funny. So thats what im enjoying about this tour is, you know, one thing i have done my whole life most comics will tell you this is we like to take something dark or difficult and spin it and spin it in until we can make it funny and relatable. Sometimes i willjust read a death threat on stage and hopefully make hilarious comments. My show currently is different than my regular act because now it has a layer to it that it never did and i got a standing ovation at the Sydney Opera House and trust me nobody in hollywood cares one bit. I suspect thats true because it seems to me youre in this weird position where you are bringing in big crowds in big arenas around the world and you cannot get a gig in the us. Correct. And no one will lift a finger. Youre finished back home. We will see, never say never but the point that no one will lift a finger hurts. I have never been more on my own and yet, honestly, i have never had more fun with the material. We will get back to the way show biz works in the us because it raises issues that have been in the news recently. But i want to stick with the personalfor a bit longer. You talk about how you take the dark stuff in your life and you spin it around until it is comedic as well as painful but you do that to an extreme. You pick apart your life and some of the really darkest corners in your upbringing in a way that i cannot think many other people would be able to do, including abusive behaviour inside yourfamily. My brother is a paedophile. All the Harvey Weinstein stuff , i kind of know certain words, certain triggers. Im kind of aware of all that stuff. I was sexually assaulted myself, twice, and frankly my narrative is a little bit more about ageism and misogyny and that is what i have experienced more than any other challenge. Is there not some stuff inside your family that for them as much as for you, it would be better not to put out there. No. I do not coverfor paedophiles, even if he was my brother. The truth hurts. You have a paedophile in your family, you think that does not effect you . It coloured my whole life. He was never convicted. He did go to prison for other offences but he would talk to me about it in a way that was unbelievable so when you grow up like that, hearing things that really no child should hear, it turned me into the type of comedian, the anti ellen, if you will, where my comedy is very boundaryless and in your face. And i think thats why the folks that come to my shows are forward thinking people, people who feel disinfranchised, people who cannot be shocked and, honestly, i think that is why im doing well here overseas. I cant shock you people. I know there are some novelists find there are certain things they cannot write while their parents are still alive. Obviously that for you has never been an issue . Does your mother come and watch your show . She only comes to see me in los angeles, she wont get on a plane any more because she might get the runs. Look, thats how i was raised, she talks about getting the runs. Also, old people talk about their ailments a lot, i know all of her ailments. Comedy, has it always been for you because you had a difficult upbringing and youve had a complicated life has it always been a form of therapy . Let me be clear, my life now is much more difficult than my upbringing. My upbringing was almost typicalfor a comedian. But myjourney through my 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s, it has never been harder than now. That is why i am speaking out now. The people who kept me down, the jeff zuckers of the world. That sob. I did five and a half hours on cnn, the highest ratings in ten years, im not a cnn employee. All those people who hate cnn or whatever i worked there one night a year. What do i get for it . And i got fired. Here is what i see as a paradox. You should see what happened when i tried to get a raise. Well. I daresay many people watching this will have been there themselves. We can all relate to that. I just want women to know, when Cheryl Sandberg says lean in, in my case i fell on my face and broke the nose. Soi so i leaned in and i gota so i leaned in and i got a bloody face for it. Why do you continue, clearly, to have this drive and ambition to make it in showbiz . You have made it, you have won two emmys. But you got so fired up by the fact that cnn fired you. No, the cnn thing. Let me finish the question. You hate showbiz in so many ways. How dare you, i love it you have talked about a business that has, over time, it encouraged, if not forced you to get cosmetic surgery, to get so sick with different forms of losing weight because of a particular way they want women to look on screen. Two nose jobs, all that. You took speed to lose weight. The speed, thats just funny. I took speed back when it was called speckled eggs. I dont know if they even make those any more. But when i was 19, working in a shop, i took speed to try to be thin because i had so many agents say if i was thin and i wasnt so ugly i might work. And i believed them at that age. Men, it has to be said, dont suffer in the same way. Ive never been told, god knows i probably need it, to get a hairjob or a facejob. And probably do not suffer the same way that women have these demands on them on screen, especially in the us. So why do you still want to do it . Firstly, i love it. I really love it. Thats weird. How can you say that . There is Nothing Better than making people laugh. How can you love being in a business which objectifies you, demeans you, judges you on the things you do not regard truly important yet you love it . Because i think i have finally figured out a way to run it like a boss. I have all male employees. Every material is my own. I do not have writers like many otherfemale comedians. Like i said, ive done 23 stand up comedy specials, and ijust wanted to be in the guinness book of World Records for younger women so they do not have to fight that stigma of women not being funny. I like to set these records so after im gone, young women can say maybe they have a shot. She did it, so i will try. Its not even just about the demands on looks and weight and everything else. It is also a basic sort of thing about money, isnt it . Of course. I would kill to make 80 cents on the dollar. When women say, making 80 cents on the dollar, in my business i make a nickel on the dollar. You think i make anywhere near my former groundling student will ferrell . I was his teacher. You think i make sandler money . This is a quote from you recently. Im not saying there isnt progress, but there is not a woman in hollywood who can really sign a cheque, for example, a woman rupert murdoch. What is going to change that . To get the people with the money and the power to get more women in those positions . First of all, women have to not be discouraged out of the business. One thing, obviously, people are talking about is Harvey Weinstein. One of the things that breaks my heart is all the women who either became addicted to drugs after being raped, how could you not, orjust left the business, how could you not. One thing i want to do is, stay in it. I am not going to let them win. And luckily, like i said, when i do the vicar in dublin, when i do the palladium, its two hours, sometimes longer, and i canjust breathe. And i love it. Im not a snob about comedy. I dont care if its a funny commercial, a funny sitcom, ive done it all. Ive done a reality show, a talk show. Any opportunity to make people laugh, i cherish it. You say, im not going to let them win. In this conversation weve already acknowledged that right now your career in america is effectively over. Youre not getting the live gigs, youre not getting the tv work. Do you even want to be in america anymore . Yeah. Its my home. Well see what happens. Anything can happen. Im going to finish this tour, im going to go home, and i dont know whats going to happen. Its frightening to me, to not have, like i said, a day of paid work. And you should know, all the celebrities i make fun of, they always come to me to host their charity gigs for free, so they hate me until they want the free performance. Chelsea and sarah said no. Anyway, i love doing it and i will keep doing it. Thank goodness stand up is the one thing that even a horrible man, and i could list the names right now, cant stop me from doing. Because as long as there is an audience and a mouth and a microphone, then i can do that. Thats what im doing now. Do you feel patriotic . I think, like i said, you dontjust go to afghanistan unless youre patriotic. You dont go do stand up in pakistan and kuwait and iraq unless youre a patriot. I am more patriotic than any of those nazi trump supporters. I think our president is a nazi. I think people should be frightened. I think there is an actual nazi, or at least somewhat nazi leaning, in the white house. Wake up. We began the interview with you saying that sort of thing, and were ending the interview with that sort of thing. Because everybody is afraid to say it, especially the american journos the way that you say it, and the fact you are so determined to say it, suggests to me that youve burnt your bridges in america, and networks who have to ensure that they sort of appeal to a wide range of different people across the nation are not going to put you on television. Are you nuts . Wait until i do the first thing that gets ratings. They will come running back. Thats all they care about. I do one thing that gets ratings, boom, theyre back. Ive done it, like, four times in my career. Its a merry go round. Up and down. I learned so much from my dear departed friend, joan rivers, about riding the wave. She was fearless, peerless, and didnt give a you know what. I think thats essential for comedy. That is interesting, didnt give a you know what. Given the choices you have made all your career, you must have the thickest skin imaginable. You cannot afford to show pain and vulnerability. Yet in the fallout from the trump head incident, you did show pain and vulnerability. And i think. I cried on stage, i cried on stage. Yeah. Look, this is all new material. Im standing on stage at the Sydney Opera House. You couldnt afford to be vulnerable, not the way you have chosen to run your career. I dont agree with that. Folks who come to my show know they will get something real. They know that my act is very improvisational, it changes all the time, and i love changing it. When i play vienna i will do material unique to that city. When i play in antwerp ok, i cant find it on a map, but i will make it funny. I love changing it. That keeps it fresh and funny. I want to end with some words from ricky gervais, i dont know if you know him. Oh, yes. He says he has no problem offending people, but he says, yes, we comedians have the right to say horrible things, and everybody else has the right to hate you for doing it. You say horrible things, you have to take the consequences. Are you prepared to live the rest of your life on that basis . Saying horrible things and then taking the consequences . I think i have proven that. Never has a comedian been on the interpol list and the five eyes list. Obviously i am willing to take it. But how long can you do it . Youre in your 50s now. Im 57 i was detained here, i will be detained at the next airport. You know what i think in the next 20 minutes . Can i put this in the act . I might mention that guy, hes kind of funny, ill put this in the act. Its a lonely life. No, i have a great team. My team manager is my boyfriend. We travel the world together. I love it. I love doing it. And you know what, kind of without the other stuff, the agents, and for the first time in my life, actually i dont have somebody saying, youre an ugly old hag, stop. I dont have those people around any more. So i have it a little smaller and ijust get to do myjob and i love it. And at the end of the show, they stand. Kathy griffin, its the end of the show. Icant stand. Get up, steve but thank you very much. Thank you. Im a big fan. Hello, again. Theres some Colder Weather on the way for this weekend. But overnight its not going to be quite as cold, because this area of cloud is moving down from the north west, bringing with it a bit of rain and drizzle. As the cloud clears away from northern scotland, it will turn chilly later. Perhaps the lowest temperatures for a while ahead of that cloud more towards the south east. Here the numbers will be higher by the morning. We start the day with cloudy skies and some light rain or drizzle, and temperatures six or seven. For much of southern england, wales, the midlands, perhaps up into yorkshire and lincolnshire, it will be of a dull start. Low cloud, rain or drizzle here and there. No great amounts. Already, its brightening in northern england, and some sunshine today in northern ireland, and particularly scotland, where there will be a chill in the air here. And weve got some sharp showers into northern scotland. They will continue pretty much all day. And it will be quite windy here, too. Further south, some slow improvements through the day, as we see brighter skies and sunshine filtering southwards, pushing away the dull and damp weather, eventually into the english channel. It will take a while to get the sunshine out significantly across southern england in the afternoon. Further north, in the sunshine, temperatures about 10 12 degrees. Those showers continue, though, for northern scotland. Still quite windy here as well. Clear skies in the evening will see the temperatures dipping, but then we get another spell of rain and cloud and stronger winds, this time pushing the wet weather down quickly across the uk on thursday night into friday morning. The skies clear to the north, again, the temperatures dip away, and its cold enough in northern scotland for the showers to be wintry in the hills. Quickly, well see some sunshine developing further south, one or two showers, perhaps, but then later in the day we see the cloud increasing, again. And weve got some rain on the way, thats going to be particularly evident in northern ireland. Quite cold in scotland, seven or eight degrees. The rain thats coming in is coming from whats left of Tropical Storm rina, and that will move its way quickly to bring some rain mainly for england and wales, some strong winds through the english channel. But it doesnt last long. By the time we get to the weekend, the wind direction is changing, were going to draw down a northerly wind as the weekend goes on and it will be turning colder, day and night. This is saturday. Some spells of sunshine, some showers, though, for northern ireland, running in the irish sea, coming to wales, wintry showers for northern scotland, some showers down the north sea coasts, and it will be feeling cold in the wind. The strongest winds around coastal areas in the west, the north and the east, and thats where well see the showers. For many inland, yes, its going to be a cold day but it should be quite dry and quite sunny. Im rico hizon in singapore, the headlines day two in china after talking tough over north korea can President Trump get the support he needs from president xi . When you push too so, the chineses ultimate concern is regime instability. The British Government loses its second cabinet minister in a week priti patel quits over unauthorised meetings in israel. Im kasia madera in london. Also in the Programme Second day of thick grey smog in the indian Capital Force the closure of all delhis schools. The louvre comes to the middle east. The french president opens a new museum in abu dhabi. Live from our
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