I am stephen sackur. We tend to pigeonhole creative types writer, musician, actor they get a label. I talk to a guest who defies simple description punk is perhaps the only word that captures the spirit of Henry Rollins. He first found success in the punk band black flag back in the early eighties. Since then hes variously made a name as a non conforming writer, broadcaster, actor and intrepid traveller. How hard is it to swim against the cultural tide in the United States . Henry rollins, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you sir. I want to talk about punk. Can you still have a punk sensibility in your 50s . I think so. For me punk rock is different for everyone you asked to define it. It was always the idea of questioning authority and cutting through it getting to the what is it of the things. The older i get, the more important it becomes. The early days of punk rock i think of the sex pistols, and i think of anger and rebellion against what was and the status quo. Were you full of anger as a kid . Full of anger then and full of anger now. Angry about what . I live in america because a lot of people get angry if bill and todd get married. Do you mean the gay marriage issue and the way they have responded to it . If we have to get all the way to the Supreme Court to argue about this. Its fine, shut up, move on. The fact that we argue about these things and the fact that we have so much racism, homophobia and misogyny. This is four year old kids in the sandbox stuff. Why can we not lose the gills . What made you angry as a teenager . You were raised in washington, what was burning you up then . I come from a completely comfortable and middle class lifestyle. I never missed a meal in my life. I was a horrible student. Life was frustrating. I could not talk to girls and could not throw the ball straight. I kept not being able to figure things out. By the time i was 17 i was a ball of anger and then punk rock happened. And one of the extraordinary things about you was that you were floating around and it was the beginnings of a real scene in new york, particularly, and one day you went to see a band that you liked. Yeah. Black flag and something changed your life in that crowd. I sort of knew, and i looked at my watch and i had to drive five hours from new york to myjob, throw on a fresh t shirt and start scooping ice creams. You know that song that you have about going to work, well play it. And they asked me to sing it. I hopped onstage and i kind of knew the song. And the singer asked me to jump on stage. I sang it and i will never forget that i looked around like a quarterback for the snap and the band was like, that was cool. And the audience thought i was cool. And i gave the microphone back after 90 seconds. And a day later they called me and asked because they were looking for a singer and he wanted to be the rhythm guitar player. I was looking at my apron and ice cream scoop and said i have nothing to lose. I went back up there on the train and i auditioned and i got it. A week later i am in the van with them with my duffle bag and everything has been downhill ever since. One of the classic album titles, of course you were in black flag for quite a while, and one of the albums you released was called hard volume. There is something about your music, and you call it intense, it is beyond intense. It is earthshatteringly loud. That is what ive gone for because im not the brightest bulb. Hard to be max volume, we were in belgium, and someone showed me a sheet that we were getting airplay and we were in the category of high volume music. And i said that was an album title. Let us give people a sense of the musical style that you are inhabiting. This was from 20 years ago. On my way to the cage. The fear is in their eyes. I am all blood. On my way to the cage. No regrets here no last words. On my way to the cage. On my way to the cage is the lyric. Just tell me, it is you as a young man. When you look at that version of yourself, do you still feel he is inside you . Absolutely. Except if i did that song now i would be on the floor trying to give out. That is a tame version of what you used to do because you used to be stripped off from the torso. And your body is a display cabinet of tattoos. The reason i only used to wear a pair of shorts was function because im going to sweat half a litre on the stage. Usually i would go back to a van and do the washing up in a restaurant. I did not play injeans because they were the only pants that i had. No shoes because they would get sweated out. I would get gym shorts and on that day i was very lavish. I wonder when you think about your music, would it have made a big difference if you had become something more than an alternative cult band, because you did get a top a0 hit with the Henry Rollins band. At one point you were actually voted details magazine as man of the year. You were on the cusp of becoming more than an alternative guy and almost going mainstream. I wonder if you were ever disappointed that you did not fulfil your journey into mainstream . No. Because you have to do your own thing. We wrote the songs that we wrote and freakishly, the one that we were even going to put on a record, became the single. The Record Company called and said that was a single. We said that was a joke. We dont even have a chord structure for it. It is this thing that we do at concerts. All of a sudden im on the cover of some interesting magazine. I know that all of a sudden in six weeks it might be over. And that is all i ever thought about it. Did you want to be famous . No i did not want it. Believe it or not. Any notoriety that i have it is only a hindrance. In that i am walking and talking to this guy, or i am standing in the middle of an aeroplane doing a photo with a guy who has been waiting for me outside with his phone. Can we do a photo . Yes. It is not too weird. Let us do that. Otherwise ijust do my work. Ive always been very utilitarian in all of this stuff. And that is what coming from punk rock gave to me. I dont feel like i am anybody. If i wont be the something i will say sure. I dont think i am anything. Maybe because you were scooping ice cream not too long ago and maybe there is an element of insecurity in you that unless you keep working and keep striving you could end up back there. I figure that that is eventual. I move forward because ive nothing to lose. I am nobody from nowhere. Im from the minimum wage working world a hundred years ago. I dont ever have in my head that that is any more than one tour away from coming back. And so i like to work. It is not a money or fame thing. It is about activity and challenge. The other thing that is in my head now and maybe that has something to do with the death of david bowie and all of the response that has come with that and what an extraordinary artist he was. As i was saying, there are a lot of artists in contemporary culture that are very hard to pigeonhole. David bowie was one that was like that. And you are another. And he was very big in the 70s and 80s when you were making your way. Was he an inspiration to you with his multiple identities, his determination to forge his own path and ability to break conventional wisdoms . He inspired me from hearing his single. As stupidly as a teenager i never bought the record. 20 songs would come on a radio and one lyric grabs you and you think that someone gets you. That song gets it. It is an anthem for that. And i dont know why i didnt go right to the record store for 4. 99 and buy that record. Frankly i got into his records in my early 20s. Someone gave me ziggy stardust. As far as inspiration goes, i am in awe of him. And now that he has departed, he leaves his music but he takes with him a universe in that he is not genre specific. He is a sovereign nation. And that is why everyone is so affected because you lose part of yourself when he goes. He was into design, into clothing, into the look and of course he was into his music, but he did acting too. He did film and art. I met him once. He walked by me at a festival and i was like, wow he asked me if i wanted to have lunch. He started quoting me from interviews. And last year you said this, and he is quoting me again. So when is your next book out . Ive read a few of them, not all of them, and i was thinking i was going numb. And i had this amazing conversation with him at lunch. It was one of the biggest moments of my life. He took his art in Different Directions but he was never hugely political. You chose to be very political. As you branched out from the music you did your speaking tours, your spoken word records and clearly, when we talk about burning with anger earlier, were a lot of things on your mind, political things that you are determined to say. But that, in america, has been tough for you because you are saying many things that americans regard as toxic. In my opinion, just my opinion, ive never said anything controversial in my life. I dont advocate murder or destruction. I advocate literacy, empty battlefields, empty prisons and bathrooms swelling with potential. And i will take it. Some of the feedback of what your work has produced, some feel that you despise your own country. I love it so much i feel the need to critique it in order to make it better. How can say you are an exceptional country when you go online and see all these people say Michelle Obama is an ape and her children look like the stand ins for the planet of the apes and her husband is a socialist kenyan, insert very horrible words . That is regressive. And im not going to point that out . I come from a country that starts fake wars. One that has gone out of their way to keep people from better education and when you finally have equality in america, which will never happen, everything changes. Wall street changes, neighbourhoods change. And to say that and if someone gets mad at me for that, so what . Did you feel you are warrior in americas culture wars . Not necessarily. The United States of America Today is a deeply polarised place. You sit there, a metropolitan american, a coastal american. Yes. I wonder when you talk in the way you just have to me how that goes down in what they call flyover america, Middle America . Those communities where frankly you sound like an alien. Some people say, there is a bullet waiting for you next time you come to st louis. I have got that e mail, yes. I dont think im advocating anything except what the constitution is. But what im getting at is whether when you go on tour, do you feel it is important to reach out to those americans who come from a very different sort of intellectual and cultural tradition . Do you want to build bridges or burn bridges . No, build, build, build. But sadly, as a performer, you are preaching, as i call it, to the perverted. People do not pay 30 to endure you. Youre talking to people who are already on your team anyway. And i realise with adults, you cannot convince me of things that i dont. If you say there is no such thing as Global Climate change, i dont care what you bring with you, im still on the side of the scientists. If somebody thinks they need 80 guns in the bedroom because here comes obama, i cant divorce someone of that notion, i cant disabuse them of their paranoia and i dont want to get a broken nose trying to do it. Because adults, and you are one, we cant be changed. At some point you have to go, ok, thats you. And at a certain point, ijust let it go. One thing that you do, which interests me, is you travel extensively. You go to places that most americans, let alone most people around the world would not go to. Youve been to north korea, iran, afghanistan, syria. You have been to all these places. Yeah. And you go on your own. You dont go with a film crew and a bunch of other people, you go alone. With a backpack and a camera and a lot of protein bars, yeah. What is the point of those visits . You can fall in love with humanity over and over again because you meet people with nothing but a bowl and a t shirt and they are so gentle and generous and they live their lives without food and water and security, and all they want is a day without war, a day without a minefield, and just some clean water. All they want is just a moment to breathe, which you and i enjoy, we count on it. I was in northern uganda on my way to south sudan and i had a translator. I was speaking with some local people and i said, what about the idea of retirement . They dont know what im talking about. I said, you get old. They said, your kids take care of you. Their wives and husbands. I said vacation, and they didnt know. Life insurance. There are parts of the world where every day is immediate. There is no 20 miles up the road or in four years im going to be here. Theyre thinking, tomorrow im hoping for that bowl of rice. And when you encounter that and you get on an aeroplane and a day and a half later youre driving down sunset boulevard with the dust of that country still on your boots and you can look down and see it, its a lot to walk around with, and i live for that. I wonder what you make of the way in which people in those sorts of places, from syria to afghanistan to south sudan, the way they perceive America Today. I dont know if theyre people just trying to make nice with me but when i say im from america, its almost like, oh america they go kind of kooky. Obama obama taxi drivers all over the world love obama. Right now we are in political season in the us. Right, sure. Perhaps the one candidate that has sucked up more of the oxygen of publicity than anyone else is, and you know im going to say it, donald trump. A guy like you on the progressive, liberal left of american politics, when you look at the traction donald trump is getting for views which to many outside of america would see as ego driven and bizarre, how does that make you feel . It speaks of an america with a systematic dumbing down of people, who do not question, who are not scientifically inclined, who do not travel. They dont have a passport. They wont go to india and see how a different culture does its thing. And they want the information in Bumper Sticker sized pieces. Im not putting these people down. Why do they need only little bits of news . Because theyre working two jobs. Theyre getting up at liz30am, feeding the kids, getting into a cubicle or a car that they hope will not break down. And someone says theyll build a wall and there will be no more of those damn muslims, and its a way of getting people to your side with tough talk when Economic Times are hard. And historically, that is how you get people to do unspeakable things. Can the american mindset be changed . You are talking about a lack of knowledge and a lack of curiosity about the rest of the world. Can it change . Sure do you feel you can be an agent of change . All i can do is shoot my mouth off and speak what i think is the truth. If america really wanted to, if you took the money that you put into defence and put it into education, in about 100 years, you might have less crime and more middle class mobility, because more people would have the option. They would have more intellect, more stuff in there, and maybe there would be some options. I was raised with options. Im a white male, raised middle class. The nature of the colour of my skin and gender in america, sadly, opens doors for me. It should not be that way. I should bejudged on what i do but thats not how it works. I want to end, if i may, with some personal reflection. You are pretty extraordinary because from the punk rock to the one man shows to travelling the world, youre constantly mixing with the public and putting yourself on show. But you have described yourself as a deeply solitary person. You have said you would be happy to be on tour all of the time because you would not be beholden to anyone except for yourself. You dont want the kids or a partner at home to be tying you down. Are you truly that lonely . Im not lonely. Im solitary. It is a lonely mindset. Im not lonely. Its a solitary mindset. I dont miss anybody. I miss the audience. But that is not a true intimate relationship. Not at all. Do you not want intimate relationships . I tried. Im just not wired for it. I have been into gals and ive been into them and theyve been momentarily into me, but not so much, because im always looking at my schedule and then it is like, i can hang out with you for a day and a half and then im leaving. Everybody sees my priorities. I was lonely in my 20s. But i was way more analogue. When you had a girlfriend, you would write her a letter. Im 55 and i nowjust want to go and do stuff. I want to work vigorously, travel hard and have a crazy itinerary that demands that i get up at 8 00 in the morning and do this and dont be late and prepare for this thing that im really not that good at doing but i signed up for anyway. It keeps the blood thin. Thats the life i lead. Its eventful, but there are things i go without. I dont go home to anybody. Most of the relationships i have i either pay a commission or salary to these people. I like them and respect them and i hope they like and respect me, but we dont hang out on the weekends. I see them monday to friday. Unless its the road manager. Then well be glued together for the next year. You are probably the most self contained guest i have had on the show. I dont know what else to do. This is how i am. You know, youre not 22 anymore. When youre an adult, you find out who you are and i guess thats who i am. Henry rollins, it has been a pleasure. Thank you. Hi there. Over the last few days, weve been carefully tracking the progress of hurricane maria, which wrecked puerto rico. Lots of weather in the atlantic. A big area of low pressure and a powerfuljetstream over that, a big swell of cloud that looks like a massive ear pushing a band of rain eastwards over the uk over the next 12 hours or so. We will see some rain as we start friday, our main weather front across west scotland and western england and wales. Ahead of that, patches of light rain, drizzle and foggy conditions over the hills of southern england, particularly Salisbury Plains and the downs. A mild start to the morning, temperatures 16 17 degrees even at eight oclock in the morning. Rain beginning to clear away from western england and wales, some sunshine coming out. The rain could be heavy for a time across north west england. Wet weather with us for some, and a soggy commute to work. Most places have the chance of seeing some morning sunshine. Through the day, brisk winds pushing rain eastwards across the country. Eventually clearing away from east anglia, lincolnshire and yorkshire as well. Some blustery showers into Northern Ireland and western scotland, some quite heavy. Starting to feel a good deal cooler across the north west. Temperatures 14 15 degrees. Potentially reaching as high as 20 degrees, some sunshine across eastern england. Further clumps of