Its the divorce of the century but who will pay the bill . As the uk negotiates its exit from the European Union, the optimists believe it can reshape global trade, freeing it from barriers to outsiders that any Customs Union of a group of country creates. The task is harder because british Prime Minister theresa may threw away her parliamentary majority in a general election that has left the government severely weakened. My guest today, nicky morgan, is worried about brexit and indeed opposed it and her view matters, not because she used to be in the british cabinet, but because she has just taken the chair of one of parliaments most important watchdogs, the treasury committee. Mrs morgan describes herself as an insurgent. What or who is she prepared to overthrow . Nicky morgan, welcome to hardtalk. After you were dismissed from the cabinet by theresa may when she became Prime Minister, you said, im revelling in being part of the awkward squad. Should the government be worried . Well, thank you first of all for having me. I think when youre released, if you like, from the bounds of collective responsibility its nice to be able to ask the questions from the backbenches that you otherwise could not have asked. And yes, as you said in your introduction, brexit is a huge deal for this country in so many different ways and i think there are a lot of us who have many questions still to be answered and we will do that. And the more you put former ministers on to backbenches and into select committees, we know how government works, we know which bits to press. And you are also the people who, in a sense, have motive and the opportunity because you are not worried about your chance of promotion any more. I think you said, im not interested in sucking up to anybody, were the insurgents now. Well, i think its about asking those questions. Is it because you want to halt and reverse brexit . No. Look, i dont hide from the fact that i was a committed campaigner for the remain side of the debate. You accept it is going to happen . I do accept its going to happen. So no second referendum . No, im not in favour of a second referendum because i think if you ask people the question, if politicians or the establishment say, were not very keen on the answer, lets have another go, actually that breaks down that trust between politicians and the electorate even further. So i think we have a situation now that needs to be negotiated in the National Interest but the point is, and i think this brexit issue, if you like, has put before politicians that question of country before party or which way does it work, in a way that i have not seen certainly. Ive been in parliament for seven years, ive been involved in the conservative party for 28 years, i havent seen that question being put in this way before. So this is fundamental stuff that effects notjust internal british political life but has implications for the National Interest and potentially for europe and even beyond. Absolutely. One of the reasons i was a committed remain campaigner was because i felt, our geopolitical place in the world, we had more power and influence actually be able to be influential in the eu, thats what our allies around the world wanted us to be. But look, thats not going to be the case, were still going to have a deep and special partnership, as the Prime Minister says, with europe. The Prime Minister hopes that will be the case and that depends on the negotiations which have just begun again a couple of days before we are speaking. You have asked for further information from the bank of england on what the implications of brexit are but youre not exactly asking a neutral player, are you . Mark carney, the governor of the bank, was heavily criticised after the referendum because he had issued some dire warnings about what would follow from a vote to leave the European Union, many of which have not come to place, and, in a sense, he is one of the experts your former cabinet colleague michael gove said the british people had heard enough from. Well, i think michael said. There was a whole quote behind that, it was shortened to were not listening to experts now. And i think actually mark carney as the bank of england governor was right to warn of the potential consequences. Of course at the moment brexit has not happened and we are some way from that split, expected in march 2019, and i think we are beginning to see that working its way through the economy. But even the questions you are posing are kind of loaded, arent they . You talk about the cliff edge facing businesses when we leave. Its going to become in your view, a cliff edge were dropping off. Its a cause for concern, you say the risks of the eu not agreeing a divorce agreement with britain, views on the desirability of a transitional arrangement to provide more time to negotiate and prepare. This is nicky morgan who wanted to remain in the eu revelling in being in the awkward squad, to quote your words. No, i mean, ithink actually, you know, you are able as a politician, im a former lawyer as well, to take on the role as a chair of a select committee. You are there to hold government accountable to parliament. Parliament is going to be hugely important in this process, we are asking the questions our constituents want us to ask. But i think anybody who thinks that brexit is going to be easy and painless has not been straight with the british public. These things are always doable, there will be a negotiation, i very much expect that there will be an end deal but its going to be bumpy and i think people are realising that. What do you make of how the European Union is handling these negotiations . We had just a couple of days ago jean claude juncker, who is president of the commission, saying that he has seen all the position papers the British Government has issued during the course of the summer, and they are a pretty substantial pile of papers, and he says, rather dismissively, none of them is satisfactory. I think it is to be expected. I was eu budget ministerfor art while a couple of years ago and eu negotiations are always. Both sides dance around a bit and eventually a deal is done, often towards the end of the alloted time period. To be honest with you, i wouldnt expect any less or any more if you like from the eu at the moment. And i think, you know, on those position papers, though, i do have to wonder that its good to see the details and the clarity we now have but with a lot still to be resolved and i do wonder how it has taken 12 months to get to that particular level of detail. I think Parliament SelectCommittee Chairmen like me are going to be asking for a lot more detail. So British Government ministers can expect to be hauled in front of you perhaps a bit more frequently than they have been in the last year or so by the previous committees . I think the previous committees have been very active already but yes, i think there will be plenty of cross examination and i think that committees like mine and others will not be just focusing on our own ministers if you like. Normally the Treasury Select Committee would quiz treasury ministers. But of course we are going to be interested in ministers in the department for exiting the eu and there may well be other relevant enquiries where we will ask other ministers as well. Because brexit again is such a big thing and it crosses so many different parts of government. Would you like to hear from the Prime Minister since, in a sense, she embodies the whole government . Well, what happens is the chairs of the select committees are part of a bigger committee called the Liaison Committee that quizzes is the Prime Minister twice a year at least. So i would expect, im sure that brexit and our whole eu negotiations will come up as a subject in the next Liaison Committee meeting. Now, in terms of the particular proposals there is frustration not just on the british side. The association of german chambers of commerce and industry said in the course of this week that politicians need to put shared economic interests first. Its really worried about the delays in this process and it says it wants a temporary customs arrangement with britain for this transition period. Do you share that ambition that there should at least be something in place very soon so that we are then able to prepare the ground for the 31st of march and that businesses dont find suddenly the rules change overnight . I think one of the important moves if you like this summer has been, it seems to be an acceptance from the British Government that there is going to be a transition period asked for. Of course, this is a negotiation. We dont know what the eu are going to offer up. But i think its very important to listen to the voice of business, not least because they are critical to a strong economy, they are employers, and i think its very encouraging to hear the views of german business as well and they will no doubt be talking to their own government. But yes, i think the issue is, although we have technically until march 2019, actually it will be before that period when the negotiations end because there has to be time for the Eu Parliament and Uk Parliament to approve the final agreements. And we also know, and i will be asking for evidence, further evidence on this, that british businesses, particularly financial institutions, are going to make decisions within the next few months if not weeks about where they are going to locate, where their employees are going to be, how theyre going to be able to set themselves up in europe going forward. So we dont have, what, 18 months, i think we have a matter of six to seven months to get to the nub of this. But those are options, arent they . Of course they are going to look at what we would do if britain actually were to be unable to agree a deal with the European Union, that is entirely prudent. Its a bit like the uk businesses that were considering leaving scotland if scotland had voted to leave. Here we are going to leave but thats no reason to say there will not be an arrangement and let me put to you what gerard lyons, who is a member of economies for free trade, these were the people who backed brexit, said in the Sun Newspaper in august. He said, the league table ranking financial centres has london as number one. Its rivals are new york, singapore, hong kong. That is where the future competition is. Those banks have all got bases there already. That is the threat if there is one. Its not really europe, its not amsterdam, its not frankfurt, its not paris, much as they may wish it was. To follow a famous phrase, he would say that, wouldnt he . Given his particular views. He used to work for your colleague, the foreign secretary borisjohnson. Well, there we are. And of course we know which side boris was on in the referendum debate. But the point is, its. There are a number of different businesses. We know some of the banks will be looking seriously at frankfurt. We know paris is on manoeuvres to try to tempt business overseas. And we know that businesses are preparing. You are right to say that of course everybody hopes we dont get to a cliff edge no deal scenario but they have to prepare for the worst case and making decisions about employment, finding the local regulatory licenses, those take months, not weeks or days. So people are preparing. One of his colleagues, professor Patrick Minford, said that he thinks brexit can in many ways be compared to the event which gave birth to your political party, the modern version of your political party, the repeal of the corn laws. And he says we should simply abolish our trade barriers without asking others to do the same, just as we did in 1846 when sir robert peel, that revolutionaries insurgent in conservative politics, basically abandoned the pricey form of protectionism that kept up the price of corn when farmers in britain were under pressure. It reduced the price of food, it helped to stimulate the industrial revolution, never mind changing the whole political dynamic and arguably providing the base on which the conservative party still thrives, as a party of free trade and enterprise. Well, ithink, two things i would say. Firstly i think Patrick Minford was one of the people who said in the course of the report on whether to call a referendum, that it would be ok if our Manufacturing Industry just disappeared. Well, i know as an mp representing a heavy manufacturing based area, that that would not be a good thing for local employment or our national economy. The other thing is actually a lot of this debate is sort of, we would like this, we would like that, we would like to have no tariffs, but actually what are other markets going to do . And the minute another market, another country puts up a tariff or puts up a barrier then actually the response from our businesses, different sectors, is going to be well, actually, the uk needs to do the same. So i think to actually expect there to be unlimited free trade is not actually. It doesnt really reflect the world we live in in the 21st century. And youre worried that the world in which donald trump for example has been so critical of, free trade and the consequences of free trade, where many people have lost out, is not actually a world where that bright scenario for britain beckons. Ijust dont think. Look, i think at the end of the day, we will, as i said before. It will be bumpy for a while. There will be a future for britain. I know many people are very confident its going to be a Bright Future and i hope that absolutely is the case. You talk about looking forward. In a strange way which appear in terms of the politics of your party to almost have gone backwards. Some of the divisions which were the slow acting poison which arguably 20 years ago destroyed the conservative party and put it in opposition for more than a decade do seem to be back. In the words of your former leader David Cameron, is the party now doomed to bang on about europe for years to come, again . Well i really hope not. I mean i have to say, look, europe has been a fault line running through the conservative party for a long time now. Pretty much all the time i have been involved in politics and many others as well. I think we, in a way, having had the referendum, we now dont have the voices saying, weve got to leave the eu, its going to happen. So weve now got to, as i say, negotiate in the National Interests, get the best possible deal for the country. But i think one of the other challenges is going to be, and i think perhaps in this autumn ahead, you know, we have our Party Conference coming up, is how the Prime Minister and ministers set out what else the conservative party in government is going to be doing because thats very important. The danger is that that all gets squeezed out. Absolutely. The danger is that the whole of the oxygen of whitehall is sucked into this whole brexit debate, and thats inevitable because its very big, very challenging, very complex. But actually we know there are many other reasons and issues people want us to tackle and many reasons why people voted to leave in the referendum which will not be solved by brexit but actually those policy ideas to tackle those issues, for example lack of Employment Opportunities or poor education in parts of the country, have to be dealt with by Government Departments at the same time. I wonder, though, how much opportunity theres going to be in parliament to do that. Because notwithstanding the deal which your party made with a small Northern Irish party, the democratic unionists, to get some kind of majority in key votes. The fact is, it would only take a dozen or so of your colleagues to rebel perhaps people like yourself, who were supporters of staying in the eu, or particular details of brexit for the whole process to be slowed down. I mean, there is a real risk here, isnt there, that actually, this becomes whether you like it or not the absolutely dominant issue for the next 18 months, and everything is crowded out. The youre right. There is a huge risk that this becomes a huge issue and the only issue that is talked about. And i have to say that would be wrong for a number of reasons. First of all, there are some big issues is that i think people expect us to to tackle. I think many people think, you know, the referendum happened injune 2016, why are they still talking about it . And so thats about explaining about the detail, the level of complexity of any deal. But also it would be bad news for the conservative party. Let me ask you, though you talk about the danger of the party if it doesnt hang together, it hangs apart. Your colleague, anna soubry, who, like you, was a supporter of remain, a former minister sacked by mrs may, the Prime Minister, wrote an article, this month, in which she said, you know, could i see myself joining with like minded people who want to save our country from the appalling fate of hard brexit . Well, at the moment, i can only say not now, but its not impossible. And if you have people like that saying i could ultimately vote against my party or leave it, because of this issue, that adds to the instability, doesnt it . Well, it would be a tremendous shame if people like anna felt like the conservative party was no longerfor them. Anna is a totally committed conservative, and it was a delight to work alongside her, both in cabinet, and now in parliament. You mentioned putting country before policy. Well, i was going to say, it takes us back. But this is not an issue that is just entirely academic. Yeah it its not entirely academic. It does take us back to that debate. Its such a huge and important issue for the future of the country for t