Hello and welcome to the program. Im for the back people. The International Court of justice has ordered his route to stop. Its a sold on rafa. The order is one of 3 issued by the un top court in the genocide case, brought by south africa against israel. Over its war on god is around his long declared. He plans to intensify, sold on the southern city, saying its necessary to dismantle from us. And it appears advance to follow through with that strategy. The i, c, j is warnings of final and legally binding, but it doesnt have a way to enforce them. So, does this play to sort of carry any weight and will it affect events on the ground . And how will prime and as soon as now 9 age increase pressure at home and abroad would explore these questions. But i guess in just a moment, but for us this report by continental past already on the its a significant move for the us top court. A landmark emergency ruling ordering is relative stop. Its assault on rafa. Is it Must Immediately hold its media to events and any other accident and did also have governors which made conflict on the, by the city of the group and gaza conditions of life that would bring about its physical destruction in hold or input bought shortly after the International Court of justice issued its ruling is really forces intensify their attacks, wiping out entire neighborhood. The ruling is part of a wider legal case that began with south africa, accusing israel of genocide and gaza. Many palestinians dont any of the courts orders will change things or stop the government of as really Prime MinisterBenjamin Netanyahu from moving forward with the offensive men. They know if i hype is rel, will comply. But it hasnt cared about quotes, rulings or even its allies in the past. So it was the middle of. Busy these are able to continue, the massacres is why it is a state above the lock and no one could stop it. As part of the ruling, israel was ordered to reopen the roof of Border Crossing and allow aid into gaza. Fam, it is already asserting parts of the north, and the World Health Organization says it can spread across the strip fast is really officials have condemned the i c js ruling. The government says its defending itself and finding home us, and some is released agree. The fact that there are even having this conversation is quite ludicrous, to be honest, i think, said we have women, young women, we have men, we have elderly individuals that have been taken hostage. And while israel is a signatory to the geneva conventions, the i, c, j has no means to enforce its orders. Many analysts now question whether the ruling like other legal motions will be dismissed by israel. And if so, if there will be consequences. States can choose to take Counter Measures against other states. A non violent Counter Measures would include things like economic sanctions, for example. Um, in order to induce enforcement, all of that depends obviously on the political will in the situation for now post and he hasnt got some must wait to see if the i see jays court orders will extend beyond words. Katia lopez again alj a 0 for insight story. The well, its now bringing our guess for today show joining us in occupied East Jerusalem is mohammed to ha, who is a lawyer and a founder of an East Jerusalem law firm that practices in the east really and policy and Legal Systems and kind of eve, ireland, d l a former is really diplomat who served as, as rise and bassett, or to south africa and in london, william sure boss. Hes an International Law expert and a professor at middlesex university. German, thank you for joining us on inside. So a will welcome to all of you how to ha, i can start with you a legally binding order from the International Court of justice for israel to stop is offensive on a rafa. Are you at all hopeful these release will heat this call at some point in time so far . It doesnt seem to be the case. And yeah, it hasnt been the case, but i think the z, the z, the government cannot continue to ignore International Law, in this case, a specific International Court order. This is a clear order of this time i need to fill out a specific area of the area. And i think that this time it was uh eh, one of the orders that i missed, the orders by the i c. C. Also waiting for the hold on god. I think the government will think twice this time when they beside the home there are future actions in dropbox. So its not it despite, it hasnt been following International Law in the past. But i think with this kind of door, the big, when are they, they will they want to treat it in a different rate . I dont think of as a golf can continue to violate International Law can continue and not to comply with orders issued by the International Court of justice, the highest court in the world and get away with it. I think this time they know that the time has come for his and really to comply with this or those im a to comply with the International Law. And if they dont do so, then that is fair. The rest once for the 2 gentlemen that you spoke about and maybe how does that risk is, is getting higher and higher. Okay, alan neal, your thoughts . Well, lets narrow completely know this order will be, is ready. Government continue to defy the highest court of International Law is the interpretation is the friend. At least writing government has seized the order as to so the bottle is once it gave the damage, possibly the us the most, the day, the angel casualties on the wall in law. And i the interpretation, it will be very cautious, especially when its task to see a yes, a, but i dont think is the best way to a welcome to the. Maybe they have policies where to go. So hes getting these folders go there. Youre a Security Council for vote and will lead to another american the dont. The new procedure we stopped. Okay, ill ask you a little bit more about what we can expect at the un Security Council in a moment. Let me bring in william some ice into the conversation. William allen leo says there is or in israel that theres a very different interpretation of this law. But as that Mohammed Douglas said its, its a very clear order this time from the International Court of justice, a very specific routing on like the 2 previous ones. The court is ordering is around to stop the split, the military operation in rough. I to allow humanitarian aid in through rafa and now the crossings. How much weight does this rolling carry despite israel, ignoring previous rulings of the court . Well, i totally agree. I think its a really and the order from the court couldnt be much clearer than it is. And the, the idea of the israel can interpret this in some way that allows it to continue with its military. Ready offensive is quite a deposit or something i think the whole world will see that of course, its clear now that is real doesnt the intend to comply with whatever, whatever contract interpretation it develops about the order. And as, as everyone knows that. Ready is not an enforcement mechanism as such the and tell me whats the purpose then of these measurements, wendy, im sure boss if theyre going to be ignored. But you dont know that theyre going to be ignored until you order them. And i think thats the most countries have been on the receiving end of these orders historically they dont comply with them. And so software for guy has no alternative if it has to go to the court to get the orders. And then hopefully political pressure will be put on israel to get it to comply. Already were seeing the consequences on israel with many of its allies and friends. Many of the countries that have been very supportive and friendly to israel are losing their taste for this. Partly because they also value and, and respect the International Court of justice. They cant stomach, israels attitude of absolute disdain. For an order by a cord is real accepted as israel never had to ratify the genocide convention. But once it did it open the door to orders from the International Court of justice and it is, it is obliged to respect them. I dont know how does this row continue to justify rejecting these orders from the Instructional Court of justice is israel above the law . Oh i explained how is that adjusted 5 . Is it a d takes the ac may in the fleet, install a box. The headlines in the uh, the all the is the sheet in roswell and different. Okay. And this we create, uh, mostly this is um, add some weight probably in anyones there some weight by the 20. I know the this International Court of justice, or the estate of the owners. Oh, you love this place, zillow, things happening now. It is wise for relations, the palsy, lovely cold here see mommy pointed to be so mommy. And these are as to why the agent, the way it was being sold in a more low spots of the especially, you know, the scene is very important to us. Yeah. Certainly, alan, this has been a bad week for israel hopkins. Certain guy is really is about this growing International Pressure. In this growing international i sedation. Its not just displayed to swing by the International Court of justice. Its also the i c c seeking to issue arrest warrants against is really leaders and also have my feet is and some very important europe and countries as you mentioned, who are now demanding that an independent palestinian state be established. How does this resonate with these really probably good launch in the sense a unfortunately, the visual was the way that most of these really body. But no matter what we do that well, i wouldnt be against us as the world is by finishing unless a big so there is a tendency dont overload whats happening in the international. What we want to do on that many is why it is a really, really worried that a fact that we have the hallmark and we so what are this is the, is the in the body how we dont want, maybe he does the side points on his own is somebody that somebody is does say thats the way im is pushing for them either way and he has to do this on. Yeah. All right, a mom at the your thoughts about this all in the else is there a different interpretation of the slate . Is really by israel and the israel views these decisions made at the International Level as anti semitic. What do you make of this . What i think, or as you know, is that it has sent to a judge adult. The judge in the buck who is part of the restaurant golf justice. And i think now does that just trying a basically to base its case on his defending will be in a mental opinion. He tied to say that actually the International Court of justice is not at all very uh to the freeze of the military conference in the for in dropbox. But actually it, it does. So it with 50 provisions about this. They are mit events such as the show stopped well, but it should. But if its a button and click this. Busy physical damage to the scene have invested in population, then the outpatient can continue. So that, that explicit explanation got there, but in his opinion, and when did you, i made sure that what do you actually present it to the is there any government that as the that the general basically didnt advise to the army yet . The leading the decision of the few judges in the court. They say that actually there is no way to the open involve uh without inflicting this damage on this would be there but illusion they mention what is that it has tried to do with the hundreds but a senior and vac deleted from about 5 to im oh, i see here, yeah, the other areas of the, the port phase and its ruling then those areas are not adequate for the happy vision people can attend. Is there no houses, no water, no sewage, nothing did for the end of provision given by this really is i think will not be accepted by anybody in the world. But thats the, thats how is the, the old right side is that it has its own interpretation for International Law including the mass and human very. Busy and that was the only really interpretation of is different from what the lord and scholars think about in the last thing you might know a briefly mama donnelly, before i bring with him a back into the conversation, the routing also says israel has to allow you and investigators into guys to, to investigate the genocide case. Right. Whats the likelihood of that happening, of israel allowing investigators into the territory it hasnt the best suit. Uh you have the quality permissions to where they. Busy supposed to come to the scene of the past based on the front of it illusions of the machine. But you know, i think we a human rights. Busy pounds to or other committees and is a in the past, as in being cooperative and this time i dont think its going to be any different. As a business actually is the show. The case of gaza garza has deemed to seize a god, but its been on the very need for your control from the feed from the air. Im from the board. Does that the borders . No, im come into the guy showed up and its really kind of a part of the consent. And design is the only one who decides who comes and goes out, does not bid for eh, our big leather green is, would not allow that. The investigators to come in so far we havent been able to maybe get him getting on the the general guys, the seat was my favorite. The guys i only been shut off at that point, but you will not be able to get it to be inside. Does that, does it have been really good but seen inside as right, but she wasnt able to get inside the door. You got the information from either you, im agencies, but anything in progress that is that the different story is likely to have all the time in the, in the unlikely is happened, then william will a defiance of disorder. My understanding is that theres no immediate sanction for violating the provisional orders issued by the International Court of justice. But does the voiding have broader implications for the genocide case that as well as facing as well in principle, it doesnt. Its a preliminary ruling about an urgent situation and its without prejudice, as we lawyers say to the merits of the case. But clearly the attitude and the violence its we, we can sense the attitude of the judges already. I think israels approach in reading this order in this very technical matter. Ready suggesting that somehow it allows them to continue with businesses huge. Ready is really not a reading in good faith. You have to read the judgements. You have to mean what the other members of the court upset in their individual opinions and 0. 01 that this is a part that is getting more angry or angry or, and more and more impatient with israel. So israels not heading into a good place in this case. Of course theres going to be a great debate when this finally goes on the merits. But its not, its not working, but for israel in terms of its future at the International Court of justice. What about the International Criminal court, while in defiance of this order by israel affect the Pre Trial Chamber of the i, c. C, which is currently debating whether to issue arrest, warrants against is really need is the, technically, of course the, because it as low as the the, the 2 are not directly related in any way. But again, what we can see here, listen, there are 13 judges of the court from all over the world, from countries that are friendly, the israel, as well as countries that are perhaps less from the day is real. And theyre unanimous about this. We can expect the same kind of sentiment, the same kind of move amongst the 3 judges at the Pre Trial Chamber of the International Criminal court to were going to have to rule in the coming weeks on the prosecutors application for the arrest warrants. Of course, we cant foresee what theyll decide, but this sets the tone and i think we, we can anticipate that those are restaurants will be issued. And theyre all kinds of other sort of soft effects of this to go outside the legal sphere altogether. And weve made reference to them already, the fact that theres an increasing number of rolling momentum upstaged to recognize palestine as a state, and probably open the door still the United States as an obstacle, but its the last only the last obstacle admitting tell us its a full member state of the united nations. Right. And mom, and ill ask you about about this, the us being this obstacle, but let me just get out of the else thoughts about what william said there. I mean, what happens all and if these arrest warrants are issued, israels credibility has radically diminished within the course of this war. And guys are, theres a shifting perception today in the world of israel as a law abiding democracy. What would it mean for his route to lose that status and to be treated as a non democracy . Oh, as far as i remember the wow how they plan, they saw countries, members of the. Ready world and when the story risk. Now when we got our and we have sold for the fast info on this issue. So this is why the boss man, the why the dog or a phone relations is one of the way dry door under my j legally. This is still being my, the status of the most about even spoilers wouldnt be issued because the United States is not a member of the i c c, this stage from all the discussion. The issue is the why is why is because my race just to join the call, somebody called me this is a, this been a while, that being the best of joint, the gospel cannot do a discussion there. And this is josie golf, through the state. A