Its unlawful action and policies in the 5 fathers damian, 3030 as a nation makes this case at the i. C. J, the in the nation fall in minnesota. And i know most of the folks out to sierra the in the me just for one minutes, but i have no mux. So the thank you for talking to alex and sierra. Thank you for having me. And alicia is one of the countries on the forefront of the case at the International Court of justice on the legality of the patient listing, entire trust me. Why is this case so important to in the nation . Look at what happened in the last 70 years after. So with this put down, it is killing almost every day, especially currently in an in garza. So the question is, can we stay still the opposite of being this very worrying and septic tuition . It is not an indonesia, in particular. Our constitution monday about it, about the right to Self Determination. So it is monday then in our constitution and indignation constitution. So there is no other way that indonesia has to be in the forefront for the a postilion costs. So in this case is before the i, c j basically have of course seen over the decades the situation hasnt improved. Right . Yeah. For the processing and people who have had an opinion from the icing j before 20 years ago as well, has completely ignore the why do you think this time this case will make a difference . The situation again. Number one, i want to respond 1st about the implementation with the just all of the decision of the you and the solution. And i mention it again and again in almost every meetings that i have including during the t 20 for the ministers meeting. I mention about please avoid doubles thunder. We step, we need the International Law. We need to uphold it and implemented in a consistent manner. So to who would that you say, no double standards to all, to all of us . Any anyone in particular may be do us secretary of state. I said to call before the to 20 meeting and also, but also in any meetings. Because implementing the international in a consistent mentor because its not happening right now. Its not happening. As you mentioned, there is the route before of the i c j. It did not. I mean the application is not there. And how many you end security considered a solution have already been adopted for the palestinian, including the mentioning of the 2 state solution. So again, the implementation is very important. N, i mean, so many countries saying about International Law, International Rules based order said implemented in a consistent manner. And thats what you made with double stand. Thats why youre talking about come to select the United States or what, what are the, what are you feeling now or having to double spend . Well, uh like literally the western countries to the quite often mention about the International Law who based but again, at the pressure on it applies to when ever received police also do it in a consistent mentor. But not. And just because if it is big and just then whats happened is on uh, on the palestinian of people is just one of the very best example how double standard a price in our lives. But a new nation has a very close relationship with United States, right. You had a meeting also with anthony blinking at the us secretary staff in, in brazil during the g 20. I think what kind of pressure can you put, i mean, or is it the dependency you have from the United States . It also with hopes indonesia back because youre worried about the relationship. I had a very good conversation and you fairly good communication with antonia bank. So we had a good communication. I can, didnt read the position of indonesia. And especially when i was in brazil, i mention about number one, why the u. S. Federal to get a better solution number to mention about how important 2 issues that should be upheld by the us. Number one is about displacement because not everybody is worried about the displacement, especially on the southern part of the gas in the alpha. So and the u. S. A administration clearly mentioned against. So i said that piece to, i know they have also again see, told the resolution just a few younger ones that decision and i think the, the position of the u. S. Hispanic, you said thats why i mentioned above the issue of how do you feel about the fee to uh, let me continue on the number 2 that i mentioned to uh, secretary clinton of the importance of u. S. To keep that position on the 2 state solution because im really worried step up this 2 step solution and the government of the prime minister. Nathaniel already mentioned that there is no 2 state solution. There is no published in as a solution. So what about all the decision that we have taken in the us, which we have to respect me. So i just want to present this is that a solution . This is the decision that we have taken, which you involve in the n, what we need this to implemented, but not to have to ask if there is nothing, theres nothing that is noticed solution on the test it so version. So what back the 1st funds do you get if you say this to uh, to banking for example . Yeah. Secretary benefit message. Yes. Uh the u. S. Mean, did the position on 2 issues that i mentioned that is on the displacement and on the 2 state solution. But i want to ask you again, how do we respond about the fee to that again, the us has as put down on on a resolution on a ceasefire. Once we know that hundreds of people in guys are starting every day. Yeah. I can be my precision that the site is very important because ceasefire is a game changer. And i mentioned it before. The 220. 00 meeting says fire is a game changer. We thought see, fire. Im afraid that this situation will continue. But again, what i mention uh by a secretary blink and during my meeting, the meeting with me is exactly like the same of the statement by the person in the percentage of the u. S. A. D u n. During the u. N. S. The me thing, when the u. S. Feel to us in the nation of course is a fairly important player. Its the largest Muslim Country in the world has a very strong cost for the purchasing and people. How do you feel as an, as administer re presenting indonesia and in this, in this circuit of International Leaders who dont seem to do anything at the moment . I always mentioned that indonesia will take any possible avenue to defend justice, to defend humanity. And to be with the palestinian people, because as i mentioned to us already over 70 years, and i recall what happened in bundled, the asked year after because some of the 955 in 1955 boston is the only country who did not enjoy freedom of independence yet. So we all did the policy union, a people, n a get number 2 because it is in the, in the constitution. And number 3 though i o. O. Always mentioned that the issue of policy then is nothing to do with the religious issue. It is the principal, a lot of things, the voice of indonesia as the largest, most of them population is very because you have, you will get a lot of pressure. I know you have a lot of pressure from islamic organizations and emilys you have to do more. Right about the situation in gaza. Dont you feel that indonesia is it . Yeah, its kind of invisible right now on the world stage. If you look at the situation and gaza should and then you should not have a more prominent role, no, indonesia, for this guess, its relative to simple. Its very feasible n. But we dont see much, right . If you see whats going on between europe, the middle east, the u. S. And where was the very best of all i, ill tell you during the, the, as the assignment of, uh, add up leaks. And the, oh, i see indonesia represented by the french minister is one of the freed administered that assigned by the leaders of our public. And also the oh i see to make effort to find was to fix a towards the solution of the situation. So together with the freedom and instead of up. So d jordan at 2 cop tar turkey, nigeria, indonesia, and of course the palestine. Weve visited separate those of 5 for monday, members of the un security council. And then was that uh it was in november. It was in november, so we visited epic capital of p 5 countries. And we also had a meeting with uh no way in also i could not make uh make it at that time. But the rest of the group visit it also met the friends, can use the us no reading up on the know rate but also with the not the 1st less with the benefits. But have you been able to make a difference during that visit . Yeah, at least a for example, during the conversation and i just met also the new for administrative of, of friends. So we tried to compare notes and we tried to underline the importance of their contribution to solve the issue because we stopped the contribution the situation with a to nowhere. So in terms of follows up, i was getting an issue. Indonesia is almost everywhere, but not very favorable, maybe behind the scenes. But we dont really see it in the fall from maybe your to focus your to focus on, on the surrounding countries. But in every meeting about palestine, indonesia is always in the forefront in your speech. You said that all the countries, all the states are responsible. They have an obligation. Yeah. It shouldnt the world step up much more in that direction . I think the word should show show straight up. Um you mentioned about the collective responsibility to collect these judy. Its true, we need that. We need that especially especially once again the b 5, the member of security concern. They have the responsibility there, have the judy to end up trust it this and they use the fee to every time in the yeah, well that is the issue. That is the issue. So once again, we thought collect the responsibility. Its very difficult and you mentioned about sanction in the conversation with number of colleagues i mention about is this kind of at this kind of policies does by the countries, what would it be . Can you imagine . What will be the reaction of the work . What i can imagine is less of the sanction may be kicking off the country from Many Organizations will happen. But what about this . Its quite a fuse its. Its happens every day. But i mean, its on the beach and literally imagine about why we cannot solve the issue. Because again, of the responsibility should be ours. All of us has that response. But if youll country indonesia has started accession discussions with the o e. C. D, a organization for Economic Development and corporation as the 1st country in southeast asia. Its a fairly prestigious thing. Mm hm. But there was some reports that is pro, is also a member, was trying to block your accession. Have you, have you been forced to make some compromises there . No, no, no. I mean, im make my statement very 3 years since. Thats the very beginning. Of course the accession is there. There is a discussion, the dynamics i, i for the money part of the situation. I had a very good conversation communication with the secretary general of the or i c or cd. And i talked before the decision, i talked to, oh, almost all european union, a friend ministers. And theyve got to work with you. Everybody support. But its, i was trying to block it. And i mention that is the trade off is between oxidation and normalization. Wow. Now the answer is simple. Nope. So, so finally they decide to to accept the excess you enough, indonesia. This is just a beginning, april. This is just a beginning. So there was no pretty competition from national precondition. We will see because some country and its about 5 years, some countries even nip a few years if as i mention the benchmark for indonesia to normalize the relation with this product or this very simple and we do not create a new element. And that is the 2 state solution. Its already mentioned everywhere. So the benchmark remains the twisted solution. If today wireless, then got the engines that is a, its a set solution. Then immediately tomorrow, or my decision that the day as simple as that. But its a prestigious thing as i sat, right . That means a lot for indonesia, this, this membership. Would you make that choice really on principle, grounds to not to become a member . Because as well as they are and this trying to, to block it. Once again, the process just started. So i dont want to give the hypothetical answer rotate. Let us see what is happening now. The process is a starting, but did understand the principle of indonesia, a Foreign Policy. Its very clear. Youve talked a lot about Self Determination, right . In your speech a d i, c k, in the nation has of course also in the past some groups within the country asking for Self Determination. The pop when people in the east and have to people in the locus, or even some people protesting. What do you tell them about Self Determination . Do you think that the case is similar . Im telling you, i dont think im in comparing. The issue that you mentioned with paula study issue is completely completely different. I think that is what i can say. And can you explain why . Ok, well, i mean if you look up from all the angles, all the reason its, i mean we thought explaining in details different. Heres why you mean quite is quite a, is quite clear that comparing. I mean, we dont have to compare or we cannot compare to be more x, or we can compare those 2 cases. You kind of explain the bit for the y 2 of us one to know because i think they might not know. I just, i just give one example. They started cubic. Thats it. So in the nation was also considering to support the case of a south africa at the china side, right at the i c j. But then uh, thats impossible because indonesia hasnt signed to genocide convention. Why is that . Why we are not there yet . Yeah, yeah, well, the process is not, is not re, does not reach the final states, of course, to be a part of a convention. It is time it takes time and we are not yet to reach the consensus within the country about uh, being a part of the genocide convention. But i talked with the south africa friend ministers in brazil and we discussed about it. And i mentioned to her clearly though indonesia is not in the convention is not a party of some conventions, but the gifts, the model support what south africa is doing right now because the vast majority of countries is, is a signatory to this genocide convention. I think its only like 40 countries will happen throughout the fight is right in any size. So yeah, it has to do with the past with, with what it actually knock on 90. 65 with the National Consensus is needed in every convention that we will uh, just to be a part of the state party and every country. So of course, if the country has a different views, but every country needs also the National Consensus, like indonesia. But this doesnt have to do with things thats happened like more than 50 years ago. Like a 9065 window with a lot of different for jean. Right. Told yeah, well i said theres been, as i mentioned to your headings and i mean the National Consensus is not there yet and the nature has been at goal the success story. If you look at the market, the democrats ization, right. I was a witness myself, have been in the nation for a long time and from an author with terry and we seem to democracy. Indonesia was seen as an example under this covering precedence. So can we, though its been sad that its been some setbacks on the democracy . And one of the examples is whats happened with the nomination of his own son as a Vice President ial candidate. And there was a change in the Constitutional Court to lower the age limits for a Vice President ial candidate, which was accepted by the court. And the, the, the ruling judge happens to be the brother in law of the president himself. This doesnt sound like the reformation, the reforms that i witnessed in indonesia and all those years. Do you see this also as a said back on how do you explain this to me to colleagues, for example, around the world . Well, a free democracy has as always, in concert dynamics or challenges. But rest assured, stress assured that democracy is already being off the d. N. A of indonesia. Okay. And you mention a few mention about up and down to mention about up and as long as the in is there an hour, but i mean its, but its in the look around the world. The community is on decline, not only in indonesia, but in other comes actually its a formidable thing, guess, venerable thing. Its verbal thing. And democracy is not calling from this guy. But we have to nurture. And i think indonesian people remains, call me to nurture to build democracy because again, after being a democratic country more then how many years more than 202525 years. I mean being a democratic cancer for 25 years is very young. It is about 25 years is enough for us to set that democracy is be one of the d n a oftentimes. But which would then come down what happens at the Constitutional Court . What i call it now is, and what i can say is that whatever happens, democracy is part of the end of the other problem. Its with democracy might be the, the election of probable. So be on to us, the new president of indonesia. He is known as someone who has of the dark past human rights abuses in the past, and also was banned by do nighted states for 20 years. And these know alexis and very possibly will be the next president of indonesia. How worried are you with him as the president about democracy . And again, able, i mentioned already mentioned about the democracy. But i think as you mention during before the conversation that this interview will be focus on the posting in issue. So i think im enough conveying my mission about democracy, that democracy is on the part of the indonesian d n. E and respect. Come to strengthen democracy, whatever situations. So you would be part of the new government estimates for administer. Uh, it is very difficult. A question for me able ive been in my position for 10 years, so i think its long enough. Really . Yes, it is long enough to be a friend minister for 10 years. In those 10 years, a lot has changed right in the world. If you look back because, i mean, its been a fairly turbulent time, i think, worldwide. Weve just been discussing all sort of changing world order. Uh, also a double standard credibility of the wes, how do you see after 10 years where the world is going more on certain martins people that is more like what i see right now. Im gonna be worried about the situation. If there is no commitment from all of us to make it better, but after also to see from the other