city, and you have to think in some way what countries not, not just one. ah, it is good to have you with the seller adrian for get here. and so how the headlines and al jazeera leaders of the world's 20 biggest economy is holding an emergency meeting to address afghans growing economic, humanitarian and security crises. it comes a day after the un secretary general appeal to the international community for urgent cash assistance. al jazeera, stephanie decker reports from cobble. the challenge now is we've just had a pledge in the european commission saying, you know, missed 1000000000 euros being pledged yet. how does it filter through to the people salaries aren't being paid? people hadn't been paid in months. many of the taliban fighters have been paid for months when that could be a security challenge at the time when ice okay. is on the rise year in terms of recruitment. so there's so many elements to the us of the stand off, if you will, between the international community and the town about of withholding. you know, billions of dollars of money that this country has become dependent upon over the last $2.00 decades. and really is having a devastating impact on the people. preliminary election results in iraq point to a strong outcome full the policy of shia cleric mac tele asada. but none of the political blocks appear to secure the majority. former prime minister muriel marquee look sent to have the 2nd largest verse among cheer parties. some of those poll was held several months early after mess anti government protests. the u. k. governments delay and imposing a locked out of the started pandemic is one of the country's was ever public health failures. that's the conclusion of a newly released parliamentary report. the inquiry by m p's also found that releasing people from hospital into care homes, cost thousands of lives. and those are the headlines that use continuously on al jazeera, after inside story, which we recorded earlier. ah, a huge show of support for the european union, thousands of people rally in poland after top court there rejected one of the use founding legal principles. could poland follow the u. k. and leave the block at? how should you leaders respond? this is inside story. ah, ah hello, welcome to the program, i'm adrian finnegan. one of the european union's core principles is the supremacy of its laws. that means that regulations decided in brussels are applied equally across it's 27, been the states and override national legislation. poland is challenging, that idea, it's top court has all the parts of each law and not compatible with the polish constitution. the government in warsaw has welcomed the decision, but e. u leaders are threatening to retaliate on sunday. hundreds of thousands of polish protest has urged their government to commit to keeping poland in the block will bring in our guests in just a moment. but 1st a report from others. here as warri challenz in morsel i, it's large crowds and e. u flags are plenty, and central war. so and real fears for the countries future we would like to stay in the european union and we are very afraid that, that we are going to, to the pull exit together with the government of mister kaczynski and the others here. it's like, you know, a magician who's playing a young magician who's playing, who is fire and he doesn't know how to her, how to stop so it can explode. so i think is the same here for they don't really know what they did since the constitutional tribunal ruled on thursday. that foundational parts of you law don't apply in poland, starting opposition, politicians and e. you supporters of been mobilizing the turn out here, reinforces a central points support for the european union in poland is overwhelming, some 75 to 80 percent of the population, not even the ruling. lauren justice party, really questions ponens membership of the european union. so begs the question, why is the government picking such a potentially dangerous fight with brussels? we did invite poland government and supporters in the media to explain their position, but none took the opportunity. so i put the question to adam bordner until being ousted by the same tribunal that ruled against the e. u. he was poland, human rights ombudsman. it seems to me that government would simply like to accept ok. we can take the money, we can take all those benefits, but please leave us alone when it comes to end, the pressure concerning the compliance with and the european standards. but it is impossible simply because you cannot be at the same time member of the european union and ignore basic rules of european integration. the e u is thinking about its response. it neither wants to let this slide nor worse than the dispute. we will react, of course, like we're like we have done in the last weeks and most you have seen that again, we already know false new decisions of the court of justice about as efficient in colon also possible, a daily financial sanction. the constitution now joins issues like judicial reform, abortion, and l g b t writes connected fronts in a power struggle between poland, government and the e. u. that's getting worse, not better, rory, talents, how to 0, also or other e u. member states are resisting some of the blocks so called shared values. hungary has backed poland, controversial court ruling prime minister, victor all been has been at odds with the e, you about judicial independence. the european commission is worried about political interference and the legal system of some of its members states. it's also concerned about attacks on journalists and hostility towards activists defending women's and l g b t q writes 11 member states, including austria and islands, say the e. you should respect the authority to set their own policies on education, child care, and labor laws. ah. so let's bring in our guests for today's discussion from warsaw, we're joined by me. how vacovich a lawyer and co founder of the hashtags free courts initiative for dresden, rick brooklyn, up political analyst and professor of political science at stanford university in berlin and from brussels. peter club up a lawyer, an editor of brussels report. you gentlemen, welcome to you. will let me how to start with you is poland heading for the use exit door. are we looking at poll exit here? that is very serious concern, because that is the consequence of the battle that we have for last 6 years. when the unlawfully kept church constitutional court issues, the verdict saying that exactly polish it government and the polish government do not have to accept do not have to execute the no rulings of the european court of justice. and that is the, and that is the issue because polish government do not have, do not want to have the control from the european union institutions when it comes to the independence of judiciary, polish government and polish parliament. throughout the last 60 years changed completely the system of judiciary in poland and to from the systemic point of view . it is captured by the government. it is not independent any more. and that's why brussels and that's why luxemburg and the european court of justice is trying to force, preserve ants of the european law in poland. and that is the essence of the conflict over cuz we had a few minutes ago in the report. the you says it will react to the courts pronouncement at, but how is this going to be resolved? is it possible that you could say to poland? either you change your constitutional, you simply can't remain a member state. well, in my understanding, poland has already left the legal community. it's not a matter of is it happening one day? under certain conditions, you consist of different legal communities and economic community, community off principles and cultural values. it's a political community, and most importantly, it's a legal one. and if a country claims that it's no longer legally committed to the obligations and it only wants to use the privileges and the rights, it has practically said good bye to the legal community. the problem with you is that it's not a state. we cannot send the cavalry, and the torture instruments are rather limited because the ones that will be tortured are the ones who have collectively to decide about the use of the torture instruments. and you will always find someone who fears that if i do this now, and if i stick to the rules of the community, i will be next. and that is why all on from hungary and most likely also. but india is backing the position of the polish government. it's been described as unprecedented. a massive escalation of the crisis of the rule of law in poland. what are the implications of this if poland doesn't voluntarily withdraw from the union? what are the chances of it being frozen out legally, from within well, legally, it's not possible to exclude the member states that the european commission can initiate and under infringement procedure discount ultimately culminate in a fine. if paul does not pay the fine, then the commission can sort of take the money from the transfers that the polish states receives from the, the european union. there's also the so called article 7 procedure, which in theory allows member states to, to, to vote. so poland no longer has voting rights and this is all of course political. ready science fiction, i think in practice the priority will be to try to find a political solution. and i understand that that's what many belief is behind all this. many belief, like the polish guess, says that the pull polish constitutional court is actually instructed by the polish government and that this is all a ploy for the polish governments to, to increase its it's leverage. now if you look at, of course, the history and if you look at other member states, you can see that the policy constitutional court in 2005 has already issued a ruling where it declares the fullest constitution to be superior to law. now, this time around, it's all a lot more aggressive. you may say, if you look at the jurisprudence of the german constitutional courts since the 1970 s really with this so long a rulings, it has said that the german constitution is ultimately superior to you. law in a test repeated this stance. however, tolerating so the fact that you law is barrier. now, the problem is that the treaty does not contain any content on this. this is all based on a jurisprudence of the top you core to top you court and declares that your law is superior. and so far this has been sort of tolerated defacto. busy by your member states. and of course at one point when you have the top court of the member states and the government openly challenging this and then you have a problem. we have a picking up on, on what peter was saying there, about this being perhaps of a ploy. how legitimate is poland constitutional court are we talking about independent judges here, or government appointed ones and, and what does this mean for regular polish judges? what consequences do they face if they now implement e, you law over polish law and vice versa? doesn't put them in something of an impossible position. well, it uncommon toward sir, my colleague from brussels, said it actually there is no conflict between the standard that is described in polish constitution and the standard which is described in the you law in treaties and the charter, the same standard of independence of judiciary. so there is no conflict, this is only potential political conflict rising by, by our government. but coming back to your question, regarding this legitimacy of this constitutional court, this constitutional court is and lawfully, are composed there. there are 3 illegal judges sitting in the panel of the constitutional court. it is, it was already confirmed by the european court of human rights in july, in excess of florida case. the european court of human the rights directly said that these constitutional court with these 3 illegal judges, is not the court in the meaning of european standards. so what will be the consequence of this verdict? i suppose that polish chords, especially this supreme court, will ignore these very addict and polish judges, and polish court will follow the judgments of the european court of justice. okay. but is that going to get them into any potential legal problems they're in, in potent that, that is obvious. we have incredible legal cows in a polish system. and of course such a very big produces and other conflicts and other problems. but at the end of the day, i believe that the polish courts and polish judges which are really brave and 3 independent . and they do not afraid consequences, even if they are really toughly repressed by the government with the disciplinary proceedings with the criminal proceedings. with other former for oppression. and we have more than $150.00 proceedings against bullies, judges repressions. i mean repressions against bullies, judges, then it's a serious problem. but even though pose judges are brave enough to issue independence very next. and i say said at the end of the day, i believe that that verdict of the constitutional court will be ignored by polish courts and polish court bullies. judges will follow the european law. busy in this standards described by the european court of justice photographs we sent a few moments ago, this has been described as unprecedented. but, but is it? germany is constitutional court challenge the ears, legal order. when judges founded, the european central bank overstepped its mandate. so why is poland being criticized in a way that germany wasn't at all double standards of play here? it's not double standards because these are 2 different standards. but the supreme court in germany did was to do what supreme court do with a look at their constitution and see if what the executive is doing is backed by the constitution. so the supreme court in germany warned the government that if we transformed germany into something like a liability union or united states of europe, forum that is not backed by the constitution, we have to adapt the constitution. so this is by no means a way to say good bye to the european union and germany class, it's independence. it is just to look into what does the quote, because it's in germany say, what the polish churches are asked to do politically by the government is to support their confrontational course. to create a situation which is very different from wars trading about money. you cannot apply a little bit of the rule of law. it's like pregnancy, either you are pregnant or you're not. if the polish government would apply for membership as a candidate with such a position, it would never ever become a member. now that the, i mean, i'm not really sure what my colleague from boston said before, that the nuclear option is purely political science fiction. if the confrontational course will be as confrontational as it sounds right now, this is the last option. peter has, has the commission gradually overstepped it's, it's remit. shouldn't sovereignty and differing national priorities be taken into account by by the commission? well yes, sentimentally, i think there is a problem of the european union overstepping its powers. but here i would not so much blame the commission, i mean they are to blame, but ultimately the european court of justice, which has been permitting this this power overreach for years. i mean a former german president room on head. so it has been warning for this, many other people and the question is more, how do you solve it? because of course, european court of justice as well we, we respect the competences and i believe that and an interesting creative way to solve it would be to subject the european court of justice to what i would call a subsidy or the court basically. yet another court and inter governmental court that would have very few cases, but that basically would be responsible to, to sort out disputes on distribution of competence. so whenever a government thing, so the u. s. overstepping its power here and the european court of justice is permitting. this then only on this cases this new court will be able to overrule. so i think that would make it, let's say a lot more than likely that you would not have this kind of differences in opinion. and it's probably true that the poor government is sort of exploiting this long, lingering constitutional law problem to basically implement it's traditional reforms. that i indeed agree that you could raise a lot of question marks, especially if you see sort of situation with the government. so in such a broil with judges, that's a very unhealthy situation. and, and, and we see similar tendencies all across central and eastern europe. sadly, me how, what's your response to that? what, why is the polish government picking such a potentially dangerous fight with you, or are the treaties as they exist simply unworkable across such a politically diverse block of countries? is it the you that's out of state with, with member states and not the individual nations? you know, 1st of all, my answer is the polish situation regarding the violation of independence of judiciary is black and white is absolutely obvious. so all the verdicts already should by european court of justice and the european court of human rights are saying clearly that polish government violates european law and violates this at fundamental standards. one of them is independence of judiciary is the protection of the rule of law. so it is not the discussion between lawyers, it is not the conflict between lawyers, even. this is an obvious situation. this is a conflict between law in violation of law. so what i was the participant, as the representative for the judge is steven supreme court judges in these proceedings in the european court of human, in the european a court in luxembourg. and i could see what was presented by polish government. what was presented by european commission and other countries which participate in these proceedings. and as i said, these conflict, this situation is black and white. and we are, as the democrats protecting european, valid on the, on the white position. and the government is, is violating obviously the rule of law. you wouldn't imagine what is happening in poland every day with judges who are trying to implement directly european law, which are trying to ask the questions for preliminary rolling to the european court of justice. they are simply repressed or rick, if it's black and white me how says hunger is prime minister victor all been signed the declaration welcoming the polish court ruling and said that the i quote, the i am received at the privacy of each law should only apply in areas where the e u has competence and the framework for this is laid down in the e use founding treaties. constitutional courts and tribunals have every right to examine the scope and limits of new competences. he has a point, does me? this is perfectly right and that's the very nature of the european union. on the one hand, the member states remain the masters of the process and they decide what competence is our european eyes, to what extent and this is written. and that has been treaty at the moment. it has to be had been the same with the founding treatise and all the following treaties. that's the one side of the story. the other side of the story is the moment your european eyes law. this law supersedes over national law or any law. it doesn't matter if it's written in the constitution or if it's a convention or a unwritten law. this is the only way to create a legal space in which law is equal to everyone. so no one questions this, and i also don't think that it's the core of the problem that it's a judicial one. the core of the problem is a political one, because kuchinski and the routing party in poland. and on with this ruling party, simply dream of a different political system, which is not in line with what the european union defines as a requirement for membership in the european union. this is the collision, of course, and not the question of if national churches agree with what has been the world in luxembourg and so on. peter, a recent european commission dossier on respect for rule of law across the block express concerns about several countries. we're not talking just about poland and hungary here, democratic backsliding, as it's been called. what has changed politically since member states side up to the treaties. how dangerous is it for that for the you and what can the commission do about it? well, i think for a fact that there are problems with the rule of law in several member states, probably in every member stay at the end of the day. but definitely in a probably a very problematic way in certain number states. and i would, there to single out of the new member stated, entered in 2004. the reasons for that that's pro perhaps another debate. i don't think we should glorify how the situation was right after the fall of communism. in some cases, like in romania, the transition was not all that transitions. you can see the secret service is continuing to play a role. there are, for example, a similar problems in bulgaria. the situation was much better in poland and hungary . now a 2nd question is, what can you, what can other member states do about all that? i think it's very, very hard to easily end up in, in debates with double standard say people will say, well, why are you going after 4. busy months or an officer how spanish treating catalonia, for example, and maybe to some of my points, i think they should at least not send massive sums of money. oligarchs. that's sorry, peter, we, we're almost out of time. i just want to ask, we have one very quick question about 30 seconds. be how, how dangerous is this for, for poland government with you support writing so high? is there a danger that people just met might get so fed up with the vote them out? well, it is a dangerous situation for poland, control, polish government because i as far as i can see, european institution are consequence consequent and the european commission. i decided to stop this crisis because it is not on the, our internal polish issue. it is that it is the problem of the whole europe. if you do not stop this crisis of rule of law, you fallen it can be a domino effect for the whole europe. the i'm afraid gentlemen will have to leave it. we're out of time. many thanks indeed, be however, k, which already broken up and peter clapper. thank you too for watching. don't forget, you can see the program again at any time just by going to the website of al jazeera dot com for further discussion. join us at our facebook page, you'll find that at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. and you can join the conversation on twitter. i'll handle at a inside story from me, adrian finnegan and whole team here in doha. thanks for being with us. we'll see you again. ah ah in the country with an abundance of resource raid and walk indonesia whose firms forming we moved the ball to grow and froth, we balance for green economy, blue economy, and the digital economy with the new job creation law, indonesia is progressively ensuring the policy reform to create quality jobs invest, let's be part when the lease is growth and progress invest indonesia. now, lanita is approaching a tipping point in the lead up to the called $26.00 climate summits. al jazeera showcase is program dedicated to one veiling the realities of the climate emergency witnesses queens films documenting the human experience on the front line planet at the wet report from greenland on how the rapid rate of melting ice is having a profound effect on the population people empower us why politicians have been so unaffected in fighting climate change. folk lines investigate horizon temperatures of fueling a water war in the us. algae, there were well shows how a community in senegal is dependent on the preservation of the natural resources. the screen takes the fight, the climate justice to our digital community, and up front. it's hard, demanding environmental accountability, the climate emergency a season of special coverage on al jazeera. ah, hello, i'm fully batch boy in doha, with a look at our main stories on al jazeera leaders of the world 20 biggest economies . they're holding an emergency meeting to address have ganeth stance, growing economic, humanitarian and security crises. it comes a day after the u. n. chief appeals to the international community to for origin cash for i've got to stand the u. s. and other countries throws afghan assets after the taliban to.

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