Besides that there is no regional divide, separating the interests of our atlantic and our pacific partners. This partnership with australian, thE United kingdom, is a signal that were committed to working with our allies and partners, including in europe, to ensure a free and open in pacific. We welcome European Countries playing an important role in the, in the, you know, specific. We look forward to continue close cooperation with nato, with the are P And Union and others in this endeavor. The new alliance means paris is lost, the multi 1000000000. 00 deal to bill submarines for australia. The french government is angry, accusing the trillions, stopping them in the back. The taliban insistence morE United than ever after reports that its leaders are in a major power struggle. The group says the claims are aimed at these stabilizing the country just weeks after it took control. Leaders from the west african economic block eco, was having both sanctions on guineas, military withers, their demands in elections be held within 6 months. And he was suspended from miko on last week after delivery. Coo Moves President , alpha. Com de from power fighters in nigeria have killed at least 18 government soldiers in an ambush in the northeast, in state of for no west african ice. The philly. It says it carry that the Attack Area has been at the heart of the bloody 12 year. Insurgency is killed on the 40000 people displaced more than 2000000 health officials in china say they fully vaccinated, more than a 1000000000 people against the corona virus. Thats around 72 percent of the population. Well, most populous nation hit the milestone or battling a new outbreak of the Delta Variance in the southeastern province for jen ortiz, have locked the Neighborhood School schools and restricted travel. And the state to stay with us inside story is next news. News. Can the European Union defend itself, its leader says the block should increase its military capabilities and not rely so much on us. Lead nicer. But whats holding it back from achieving that goal . This is insight story. Ah hello and welcome to the program. Im the stars. The attain now, many European Leaders have long pushed for a big military role. One Thats Independence of thE Us, lead nato alliance. The need for this increased Military Capability was recently made clear during the chaotic evacuations, from Cabal Airport European Nations had to rely almost entirely on thE United states. Now European Commission President F Love on the lion says the block needs the political will to stand on its own. She says the you should be able to deploy a military force without relying on thE Us. Busy or nato, but many in europe have strongly rejected the idea of an active european military force, while others say the time has come for europe to increase its military presence. That are your opinion is a unique security provider. There will be mission where nato, all the, your united nations will not be present. But where you up should be. You can have the most advanced forces in the world. But if you never prepared to use them of what use all day. What does has helped us back until now is not just a shortfall of capacity. It is the lack of political will. While the Naser Secretary general warned earlier this month and you Defense Force should not stretch nature resources, you installs and bug said, we welcome morE Us its own defense, but that cannot replace nato. It should not duplicate naser because we have one set of forces. And we have scarce resources on earlier this month, you ministers debated creating a 5000. 00 Troops Force to deploy during emergencies. And that plan faces opposition from some countries that are also members of nato, particularly those bordering russia. In 2007 so called battle groups of 1500 soldiers drawn from each Member State were created, but never actually used low Defense Spending among European Countries as seen as a major obstacle to the continent. The military independence, European Naser members spend 1. 64 percent of their g, d, p on military expenditure last year. Thats well below the alliances 2 Percent Target and germany and france though, amongst the biggest spend is they both increased Family Tree budgets last year. The. Well lets bring in our gas now in brussels. We have theresa fallon, the director of the center for russia, europe, asia studies in washington dc. David De Roche Associate professor at the national Defense University and also a former nato Operations Director at the joint chiefs of staff also in brussels. Nicholas, why its an international affair. Strategist and senior director for global solutions at a p c. R. Worldwide. Thank you for joining us and welcome to the program. I do want to start with the practicalities here. I found a very important, really just how realistic this all is. So this obviously isnt a new idea and its been basis and discussed so much that we get to the point where some Member States actually roll their eyes every time it comes up. So david, whats actually stops the you from establishing a military force they fall . Well i, i have to disagree with miss franka. Its a lack of capacity. Look, you know, i came back from a Nato Summit in 2006 and my son met me at the airport. He was 4 years old. And in the course of talking he said, im going to grow a beard. And i said, good for you kid. Its going to take a lot of time and determination. And then as i drove home, i realized that was kinda like what i had heard about european strategic on the trips. People have been talking about it for a very long time. Theyve never done anything. And when they tried to do something, they give it over to their militaries, which proposed headquarters. You know, European Battle group is a great idea, but they didnt create infantry battalions. They created a headquarters that means you know, the staff that does the Staff Work on. This creates a lot of jobs for kernels and majors and generals. Those are very expensive. Theyre pop here because theyre jobs for senior officers. But you know, a general is the equivalent of an infantry squad. And so what you get are youre draining precious resources out of the same Shrinking Pool of defense things and youre creating duplicates of headquarters that are commanding the same 3 infantry battalions. So, you know, i mean its a good idea, but if it would have been done, it would have been done already, and its gonna take a long time. If people decide to do it will show you this is all going to take a huge amount of resources as well as building the existing capacity. Im curious teresa because i could see you nodding that you, i believe were also part of the strategic advisors group today. So now, if you will, the E U, why not just actually contribute more to nato, or if nato is so irrelevant . Why does nature exist at all . Well, thats another issue that has been long discussed having a strengthened European Pillar within nato, so that there wouldnt be duplication. And thats a key issue. And i think right now we had the state of thE Union address yesterday, which you had some tape over the vendor line, but she didnt mention in her speech strategic autonomy. So i think thats a really important point to know is what was and said, it seems like france is pretty much, very loud about the strategic autonomy debate. And then in addition to that, we see this big inter pacific announcement made Today Everyone has been waiting for for such a long time. And that was kind of undercut by thE U. S. U k, australia, because new strategic partnership. So i think that europe is kind of really right now, and theyre not sure what theyre going to do. Theyve had a year where breasted, you know, better has left thE U. K. Was one of the biggest defense providers. And they were trying to think of a way for the e, U And U. K to continue to work together. But because of what just happened, its clear that thE U. K is working far more closely with thE U. S. And australia. So i think that was kind of reeling from that as well. And today at the account touted europeans Endo Pacific strategy. All of the questions. All of them were about the new strategic because thE U. K. U. S. So it seems that theyre picking me that on the international stage when it comes to defense issue. Teresa, i do want to dig into some of the pacific stuff in just a moment as plenty to discuss that. But nicholas, i want to bring you in here because were talking about you political well, not just in terms of finding money to do all of this, but also in terms of spending it on the right things and also dealing with the whole nature issue. So in your mind, nicholas, whats actually holding this hold on there are a couple of things. One of them has been mentioned by both my colleagues already, which is the fear of duplication between the resorts already go into a show. The results of my going to you on a little bit skeptical about this, to be honest because actually this is, these are resorts that are going to bE Used one way or the other anyway. And im not sure it makes such a big difference which helps people are wearing when theyre, when theyrE Under a particular taking a particular mission. But forget that theres another strand within thE U as well, which is those countries that are not members of national sweden. Walter cypress, these are not big you Member States, but at the same time that you as a creature of consensus. And its quite difficult to build a Defense Structure that will civil tenuously satisfy those like friends who want to see a strong European Defense and those whose national approach has been a bit more cautious and perhaps been a bit morE Un focus thus. And then the other issue and again you have mentioned that france is very keen on this. Ready germany is last team, im germany, of course, has an election very, very soon. The german government does emerges from that selection is going to have a very important port. Germany as has historically been very reluctant to make any moves that are too strong in the military domain. For perfectly understandable historical reasons. And i think a combination of german reluctance failures convinced neutrals and fear of duplication with nato. Have been the reasons that we have not seen this progress since theyve told us 4 year old son pierce. Youre someone 19, by the way it was. I wonder if hes tried . Yes. And he has the beard and he has a beard. Well, well see if a manager may get a bit. I do want to ask you all about the timing of this, right, because as you just alluded to that, nicholas, theyre all, not just one crucial election in germany, but also very crucial elections in france. And so, well, both many in france where the promotion of this idea to begin with and clearly the french, im much more keen on it right now. And i see that micron is the pass on whos supposed to be chairing this. You defend summit, alina, some nice opportunity for him to, to be quite prominent and flex and muscle. So, to reason, let me ask you, then, is that the political will for this, some Member States, as weve been here, and obviously not very keen. Well, thats the key question, is there a political will we saw that france left afghanistan 6 years ago, there also preparing to leave the sa hell, which will give an opportunity for russia to come in there. And so they are leaving the stage and the fact that macro intimately called Nato Brain dead hasnt been missed by many analysts. And after the Nato Summit, the communicate which every t, every i is carefully vetted beforehand. There are no surprises in any of that macro. And said, i never, and it was the 1st time they really mentioned china several times in a communicate. So we saw that micro afterwards. So they never saw china in the north atlantic. So it was kind of a strange comment to make. And i think that theres questions about the reliability of some of these partners. We thought the munich security conference, joe biden, who has always been attending this actually attended the 1st time as president. It was done virtually, but his, his Speech Wasnt really very warmly received, at least that was the impression of many analysts. And both Mccrory And Merkle said, we do not want to join any sort of Counter Balancing democratic force against china. So i think thats the newest Developments Kind of show that well, right, if youre not with us, thats fine, youve made your choice. At the same time we see China Kind of almost punishing germany. Germany has under merkel, has been very cautious to bounce values and interests. And they, 1st time in 20 years, they sense of the buyer and german frigate to the south time C Region and trying to ask them to come to the shanghai later. They turn the tables and said, you cant come to shanghai. This was denounced as well yesterday. So it was kind of the tightness, seismic shift in brussels. All of these things coming together all at once. And that in many respects, it was to humiliate Germany And Angel merkel has been a huge Friend And Partner of she, jim ping. So it was interesting timing and this kind of china narrative, it will be very difficult. I think for china, for europe to continue down this kind of road of careful, carefully cultivated, sitting on the fence and avoid making decisions. Because in many respects as china, thats making them make decisions. And clearly political will is left well as really interesting. The whole idea of pushing back against trying to cuz we had a lot more of that than we have in the past from on the line in her Speech Yesterday. And she talked about pushing back on or banding products produced by force labor. Thats obviously a and in relation to whats happening and shinji young, the need for independence when it comes to producing semiconductors and microchips within the e. You really trying to take a step back from the pacific. And david previously seen a us realignment here of the strategic priorities towards the Endo Pacific. I mean the Submarine Deal with the you can us a case in point . Do you think that thE U. S. And you share a common view of the world now . Well, its converging, i mean, you know, theres always some friction. I mean, you know, in, in a large part of the European Pens on community, the European Union has replaced christianity as the religion of choice. And so theres a lot of decisions made for the European Union that quite frankly dont really comport with a strict definition of national interest. There seems to be this idea that Everything Nato has the p in union has to have perhaps better. But that being aside, most of what thE U. S. Wants out of europe in confronting china, is not really military because we recognize theres a lack of capacity and the limited capacity can be best spent in defending against russia. And, you know, possibly Mass Migration from the south, things like that. Its simple. What were concerned about, or things like having chinese infrastructure and backdoors. Hard wired into their electric backbone, stuff like that. And the European Union can deal with that. So i think that there will be cordial, helpful, and developing relations with the you on the security issue, but it wont be hard. Security issue of tanks, ships, airplanes, it will be more things like this sort of broad band of chinese communist Party Capture of economic sectors in kia for structure sectors in europe. So we are going to be getting more details. I believe this week about thE Use in the pacific strategy, but it does feel like the temperature is rising there. And i know that you are already planning to launch this so called global Gateway Initiative to really compete with chinas Belton Road initiative. Nicholas in your mind, is there a new cold War Brewing here . And what does that then means that you security and the china is not a hard Security Threat to the you or to you interest. So i think we should be careful, separate these things out with for america, its a big difference because american house, strong defense commitments and in that part of the Worlds Church of pounds, even more important looks well. But for your, there is still a threat from china and thats seen very clearly. I thought lines best line in her Speech Yesterday was that the you should not be trapped into the building wonderful ro, which the just go from a chinese mine to a chinese own portion in africa or wherever. So, i think its, its seen as real. Some in the you would say defensively, it was actually they have loads of initiatives already which added up together would make would be equivalent to. Ready chinese belts and rosen. Ready issue thats not the public reception. I attendance of the china eastern europe so much in sophia 3 years ago as which of the chinese prime minister, astonished to everybody by saying that china favors european integration, a strong european single currency. Which i guess just shows that sometimes you can be nice to your, to the people who. Ready you are investing, so i think we, its a complex situation, but for your was not a hard Security Question in a way to assist for america. I think one of the things is happening in europe, and youve alluded to a couple of times is a quest for relevance and credibility. And you know, we have your opinion and just picking up something davis says, the people want to put you flag on everything that you is under pressure, like all systems, government or to deliver for the systems. And one of the things that it feels it should be able to deliver better. All that is doing at the moment is physical, hard security. And Thats Part of whats driving this conversation. I saw, well let me bring in teresa here. Then i see your agreeing with nicholas in terms of relevance of the you, right . You, you need to have some kind of common policy. Thats the whole idea of the you, especially when it comes to security. And presumably that means that you need to have some common sense of foreign policy interests. And when youre looking at the rest of the outside world, i mean, this seems fairly obvious. I know spains military official is saying exactly this just a couple of weeks ago that creating a European Army means having common foreign policy that we all share the same interest. I mean, truth is that even vaguely likely given the lack of ability to even put together a single asylum, seek a policy for you. Well, when you have 27 members said with diverging interest, its usually. Ready always, you know, leaving from the bottom and thats where you saw in a tweet issued by a k, k, Germany Defense Minister yesterday, perhaps take with coalitions of the willing. So i think everyonE Understands that there will never bE Unanimity within the you on any of these issues that nato is definitely the organ that they need to work through and that they will work through coalitions of the willing. For example, the you is hamstrung by hungry, which kind of Stops Everything that, that you wants to do towards china, or there are other countries with various interests who will block things. So its almost impossible to get human imagery. So from that point of view, its extremely difficult and unrealistic to think of it, and then the other way. In addition, theyve brought over 7 of me who originally had worked at nato. So theres an interesting tie there are over 60 discussion groups between the you and nato. So i think that this is a rich area that can improve. And i think that there are many people work in various levels that want that politically. Some in france like to have a different narrative, but i think what is clear is that its not just burden sharing any longer with thE Us and its allies, its burden shifting us is focusing more on the pacific and europe is going to have to up their game in order to take care of their own neighborhood and their own security issues there. And its not a question of going to china. China is coming to europe. They have invested in over 10 percent of european ports. Weve seen russia, china maritime exercises in the mediterranean, in the baltic. Weve seen like fire exercises with them off the course of clinical near clinic grad. So i think that, you know, europe doesnt have this kind of. The goober is laying back and thinking time is far away. Its happening right here in their own neighborhood. While you spoke there a little bit about the context of thE U. S. While pulling out and pulling back in certain parts of the world, particularly obviously in afghanistan over the last few weeks. David, this was always a us lead mission. Know that started with counter terrorism, became Nation Building. Really, the europeans were always there because of national article 5 out of solidarity with thE U. S. So because this was always a washington initiative. Why is it that you feel quite so betrayed at the moment . Well, its a good question. I think its because of the way in which the withdrawal was announced, it was set out that the press there wasnt really, you know, there was consultations on an eventual withdrawal. I think. But i dont think there was consultations on the way the, the timeframe that withdrawal would occur, that it occurred over the summer that caused a lot of allies by surprise. And, you know, it really showed the allies, they, they had the choice of withdrawing on thE U. S time table or not withdrawing at all. And you know, thats a, thats a moment of strategic confront. Her ability that was exposed. Pretty pretty. You know, pretty importantly, but you know, we get the shocks to our partners, but they happen repeatedly and then theyre just sort of filed away. So if you look at the libyan campaign, that was supposed to be european lead operation, where europe and do most of the work there. And thE United states was to just provide, you know, intelligence surveillance, reconnaissance area refueling, a few key capabilities within 2 weeks. The Rp And Capacity was exhausted, thE United states was in lead. And, you know, President Obama says thats the biggest mistake of his life, was 1st off, he described his role as, as leading from behind, which was ridicule viciously in thE United states. But secondly, you know, it shows a lack of European Capacity for, you know, what was a very major Security Concern because of the threat of Mass Migration and all that. And unfortunately in our European Partners have never got down to building the basic capacity they handed over to the bureaucracy which builds headquarters. And again, you know, more majors and kernels, devising plans for the same 3 infantry battalions will no longer lie and saying she wants an expeditionary force. And ive been wondering what the troops are actually meant to be doing. Something really struck me in her speech. She said, there will be missions when they say, well, thE Us will not be present, but where the you should be on the ground. Our soldiers went side by side with police officers, lawyers, doctors, humanitarian work as human rights defend, as teachers, engineers. We can combine military and civilian along with diplomacy and development, and we have a long history in building and protecting piece nicholas about pounds an awful lot like Nation Building to me. I see theyve also launched this European Piece facility to provide weapons and trainings and non european military forces around the world is the huge you think, wanting to take on a more interventionist role here that he was always be an installation building. Lets be clear about that. So thats the whole point of the original munching project. Tracy was to support state structures among the 6 countries that originally joined. And if you look at what youve been doing in terms of development and colleagues to be like critical of thE Use level of military mission, lets not forget that there have been a number of moderately successful if rather small military security missions and the place for this has been most active, most recently is africa and particularly west africa, subsaharan central north central africa. And you know, if you look at the map, you can see why this is and this also addresses the migration point. So i think we should be clear that there isnt, maybe, maybe nobody wants to says out loud, but this is the obvious thanks much more. So Math Canister where europe interests are at stake and american interests on the who are not. We have, we, weve had the violence changed the government into those countries in the last couple of weeks childs and again, a concrete several others are a festive instability and all of this is direct Feed Feeding into the you. So i think that that answers your question, if i want to say one other thing, i think weve concentrated the last here on the obstacles towards crazy in the few military. Those obstacles are real serious. Its going to be a political process. Its going to be led by micro and by others. Its also going to reason the section going to enroll stefano so nino, who is one of the most gifted diplomats ive ever come across. So if Theres Somebody who constituent these pieces together and turn it into something looks more like division the Phone Line because i was there Speech Yesterday. Its probably him. Maybe somebody stepped on church, never sorry to interrupt you. I want to bring teresa and had just very briefly because there was a lot of talk about the soul of the E U inventor line speech, especially around trying to come together around some kind of common interest. So to me, let me give you the last one here. Do you see there being some kind of coalescence around this idea . Were looking into the future the european. So well know it when we see it. I think that there is a lot of skepticism and depending where you sit in europe, for example, the baltics i was just at the Leonard Mary Conference in this donia. Theyre very skeptical about friends guarding their interest. We saw even with coping in how the the gate went off when it came to mask. So italy with angry friends because they shut off masks for them. Do you think that theyre going to trust them if they have any sort of need for military intervention . So i think that this is one of the things that will deeply divide europe if the European Army continues the snare. Because you have the baltics, you have poland, who are very, very skeptical about these. Theyre even the Way Nivia recently was, you know, kind of put it on the naughty set by china and because for leaving the 17 plus one and there was no, you solitary or very, very little of it. Were going to have to see if we do actually eventually find any solid arity around this issue. Were out of time. So i do want to say thank you to all of our guests theresa fallon, david de roche, and nicholas wife. And you too, for watching you can see this program again, any time by visiting our website out there a Dot Com and have other discussion do go to our Facebook Page that facebook Dot Com, forward Slash Age 8 and 5 story. We can also join the conversation on Twitter Handle as a inside story means tells us, hey, im hoping here by the news news, news. News. News is one of the worlds most powerful and dangerous criminal enterprises. Central to the livelihoods of hundreds of thousands of people. And behind the death of many more exceptional access to some of its key players reveals the inner workings of an organization telling the name to many as the blood alliance. Inside this, in a la Carte House Part 2 of a 2 part investigation, people and power on Al Jazeera, the revealing eco friendly solutions to combat threat to our planet. On Al Jazeera Al Jazeera recounts the shocking story of the assassination of counts full cabana dot. The 1st you and envoy trying to bring peace to the middle east. How is negotiations with himmler helped save thousands of jews from nazi concentration camps and how these mediation skills put him at the vanguard in the quest for peace in the middle east. Killing the count on Al Jazeera. Ah, im, how am i he didnt indoor her with the headlines on Al Jazeera, thE U. S. ThE U. K. And australia have defended their new strategic alliance after it camE Under attack from china under the agreements the strictly and governments will get you clear parts of marines. Its seen as an efforts to come to beijing is influence in the induct. PacifiC Region with china says it will only intensify an Arms Race was when jordan reports in washington dc. ThE U. S. U. K and australia reportedly agreed to form a new Defense Alliance on