Again, im fully battle with the headlines on al jazeera. Unicef is warning close to a 1000000 children in afghanistan as threatened by acute man nutrition. The Un Secretary General is holding a Donors Conference to raise 600000000. 00 to avoid humanitarian crisis. Cut us foreign minister has met taliban leaders to address the humanitarian security challenges in afghanistan. Mom has been, mano fannys, the most senior official from any country to visit since the Group Stake over a back assign. International Airlines Train has become one of the 1st and national commercial 5 for 9 gun. Its been baton able to control the pain touchdown. I called airport, loaded with vaccines and hes just returned to focus on with passengers. In other news, japan says North Korea is threatening the region is peace and safety. After launch a new type of cruise missiles, several mythos flew up to 1500 kilometers during testing. At the weekend, the chief of the us nuclear Watchdog Phase talks in iran have averted a showdown between these comic republic and the west. Iran has agreed to allow inspectors install Memory Cod in surveillance cameras at sensitive nucleus. The coming together of the Jigsaw Puzzle will come when that hes an agreement as a J C P devil. But at that time we will have all this. Ready information and there will not have been a gap. So i think with, with this agreement we have today we are going to be able. Ready to do exactly that or sales political movements, both on the right and left have joined forces against President Wilson Arrow pushing for his impeachment brazilian unhappy with rising Inflation And Poverty rates and also about his handling of the current divide it up to date with a headlines on al jazeera, ill be back with more News Right after inside story to stay with from talk to al jazeera, we can what gives you hope that there is going to be peace because the situation on the ground seems to be pointing. Otherwise we listen. We were never on the. 3 whatever road to off migration we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories on sierra its a tory, a symbol of the United States, the so called war on terror. Guantanamo bay is where prisoners were tortured and denied their rights most released without charge. Why is it still open . 20 is off that the September 11th attacks. That is it, im sorry. Ah hello, welcome to the program. Im in, ron con. Once out of my bay opened in the shadow, the 911 attacks 20 years ago was meant to be a temporary Detention Center for the biggest threats to us national security. As part of the so called war on terror. But the place soon became notorious for human rights abuses. At its peak, it held 780. 00 detainees, most without charge, somewhat tortured using techniques such as water boarding. They had no protection on the u. S. Or international law, and no access to a fair trial. 39 prisoners is still there, including the alleged mastermind of the September 11th attacks. President Joe Biden has promised to close it by 2024, but. Busy his administration faces many legal and political challenges. I dont have a timeline for you, as you know theres a process. There are different layers of the process, but that remains our goal. And we are considering all available avenue to responsibly transfer detainees. And of course, close one time of the prism was established at the us base in guantanamo bay, southeast of cuba. In january, 2002 former president Brock Obama failed to shut it down after congress imposed limits on the transfer of its detainees. And donald trump pledged to keep the prison open and loaded up with those he called bad dudes. President Joe Biden is being challenged by some republicans who see the release of detainees as a threat to us security. His administration is trying to secure guarantees that the detainees will get humane treatment in the Home Country or 3rd countries will resettle them. For a 5 terabyte members released in 2014, in exchange for american soldier. And now members of the new taliban government and upon us on the lets bring it, i guess. In belgrade, mansell at a fee, a former guantanamo detainees at Guantanamo Coordinator for kj human rights advocacy organization. And i saw mo, jasmine, elegant, our senior managers at the institute for strategic dialogue, and a former pentagon, middle East Adviser and in york. Kenneth ross, executive director of human rights watch. Welcome to the program. Lets begin in New York with you kind of throw off the rough and possibly the most obvious question. Why is going on my base still open . Well, there are various reasons. Part of it is that a number of the people there are a minority, have been charged criminal lee, but have not been brought before regular court are being tried before these Make Shift military commission. That the u. S. Government establish basically to cover up its torch. They felt it contrived, they could control the trial proceedings better, but these military commissions and prevent evidence of the torture for coming out. But these commissions dont pretend to provide real Justice And Theyve been subject to all kinds of challenges and problems. And as a result, theyre going nowhere. I remember going to guantanamo in 2012. So 9 years ago, for the Opening Charge of the arraignment against the 5 Reading Mastermind suspects for 911. 00. And there still has not been a trial. So one of the problems is, you know, how do you move toward a fair system of justice for the hand, for people who are being charged. As for the rest, the us government has actually impose legislation, prohibiting the spending of money has send people back to the United States. So the government needs to find other places to take them, which is done for, you know, most of what, at one point with 780 people heck, one time. There are 39 last still a majority of never been charged and some of them the u. S government is, is moving toward trying to put someplace else, but theres relative handful that it believes still are dangerous. But they Cant Charge them. They dont really have any crime that they can take that they committed. And, you know, thats the problem. And frankly, i think its a made up problem because if you look around the world, there are many, many people who wish the United States har if they had the opportunity might research a terrorist, a tiny handful in guantanamo, but the reason now the, by the ministration to frankly, this is true for the early ones as well. Doesnt want to release them as they dont want political responsibility for what might, what happened you to, to this handful of people. You mentioned the opening that, you know, some of the 100 detainees, farmer detainees are now in the taliban government. And thats the kind of political problem the us government doesnt like. Obviously the taliban has many, many abusive people. That can feel that the government where, you know, the spies have been chosen really, i think just kind of, you know, hope the United States. But you know, that said the, by the ministrations afraid of what in the us called the willie horton. That is, you know, if you release somebody who commits a crime, then youre politically responsible for it. And so i think its really politics more than anything else that at this stage is standing in the way of actually quoting. Well, lets bring one of those so called problems into the conversation. Months or a day, see you a problem for the us government. You are a for when detainee. I think i have, you know, sorry. I asked the question for the last 15 years i spent im going to try to find out what was, what was the problem being there. First of all, i was, i used to be the 0 and 9 of its either. So historically i was the 2nd year on history after like center, after 15 years or almost like 15 years, i was told it was a mistake in identity and it is unclear join or not. I said, guy, you, guy, the guy that, that told me we can just say we did turn an innocent medical 15 years. I would love to say something about that. One thing with a big met. Like we know be what youre seeing, that dont get Adversity Or None of it, which im actually trying to find out. What led to that . And i love it since once. And i asked everyone what the reason that they wanted to not have to happen once the i didnt up outside of the law, that is the only legal basis for that place. So it will be hard for the next day to percent at the speed that those brothers, theyre at the same time we were the worst of the worst tourist in the planet that would promote it, proposed to get them up to the world. So over and over again, last month or 2 months ago, the thin met when 6 Level Consent Letter 2 by the and asked him to close 110. 00 because the remain detainees are the worst of the worst that i have been getting with during the go button. Administration, when congress displayed may i, when they said, i want to know that im going to be because the told the worst is the worst thirst, as you know, according to the law that 86 percent of the detainer. Wondering where either a mistaken identity or so for bond money. Now lets bring in Jasmine Alga Mall and stumble. Jasmine, this is a political problem and it very much seems to me that the republicans, the language using and often blocking any attempts to close dangling is very simple. These are bad guys, and if we release them, theyre going to come and get us. Now, is there any truck with that argument . Is there any honesty in the argument you know, the short answer is no, and im not a political person at all. So this is, this is not a political answer your question. The fact is that from the very beginning, one Tunnel Bay was an extremely political. C political topic and the creation of one Carnival Bay was based on here based policy. Is that the Bush Administration in response to 911. 00, we were afraid we made a lot of bad choices and a lot of wrong choices. And one Tunnel Bay was one of them, and might your other guests on the show that was there unfortunately, at the of the detainees made a very good point. And he said that over 80 percent of the detainees were released at some point that we were asking for. We were offering money to anyone who would offer us forces. An arab was living in a stand because we thought that all our living in a stand must be ida and must be out to get us. So there were all of these problems like structural problems at the beginning. Once we got these detainees, one animal bay, i arrived in the summer 2004. And i started working on something called the administrative review boards that basically looked at every Detainees Story and, and was able to determine whether they were in fact there wrongly or rightly, and most of them were the so i guess we, we seem to have lost, you that im going to come back to mind, but i want to bring in Kenneth Ross here in New York. You jasmine was saying that this is a very much a political is a structural problem. But theres a bigger problem when it comes to actually trying to shut it down because there is no real legal framework that the United States can rely on to put them on trial because these are 3rd party nationals. Is that right . No, thats not right. In other words, if somebody commits terrorism against the United States that its easy to prosecute and indeed, you know, had a legit mastermind of 911 been brought to a regular federal court, you know, in downtown manhattan, their trial would have been completed years ago. In fact, you know, there had been hundreds of terrorism trials completed, including, frankly, of the so called 20th hijacker, who was convicted in, in federal court. So theres, there would have been no problem with trying people. But the u. S. Government didnt want to go before the regular you know, totally. First of the logical reasons that said these people are not criminals, their Enemy Combatants. Now, i dont know why being called an enemy combat. Its worse than being called into a terrorist criminal. Indeed it, it almost to be seen as a badge of honor. But there was, you know, that was one line of thinking. And then the other line of thinking, as i mentioned is you know, we know that many of the suspects for torture, Khalid Shaikh mohammed, the legit, you know, she, mastermind of 911 with that there was been water boarded at least 183 times the u. S. Government doesnt want the evidence of that coming out. Indeed, it wants to somehow find ways to be able to use the fruits of the interrogation they brought in so called, you know, clean interrogation teams. So, you know, after hes been tortured and torturing, tortured, then they bring in somebody new and say, ok. Now to give us here at the same statement voluntarily. And now that you know, may survive. You know, the Make Shift military commissions. Its very unlikely that they would survive scrutiny and irregular of federal court. So these are the problems. You know, its the ology, its the torture that stand in the way of criminal prosecutions. But ordinarily, federal courts are there and can be used for criminal prosecution to terrorist. Now the other thing its worth mentioning is that reading aside the issue of prosecution, as johnson said, you know, most of the people in guantanamo, you know, a lot of them are just fair because they were picked up because of counties. They will never really founded on anything but the theory that the u. S. Government used to detain people without charges that represents the vast, vast majority of the 780 or so people who have been through montana, the theory they used to said these are the Enemy Combatants in a global war on terror. That was the Bush Administrations church and, you know, under international law, if you are at war classic state to State War with a battle field. If you capture combat and on the other side, you can detain the combat and without charges until the end of the war. The Bush Administration then stretch that theory to make it a global concepts. You know, even though there is, if there was, you know, there was a battlefield, an afghan, a fan, but there was no global battlefield. But they said, look at this is a global war. Anybody picked up who was had to have been involved in terrorism without even charges, can be held, the Enemy Combatant until the end of that global war on terror, which may be an endless war, and they never come. And that theory has never been formally repudiated. You know, the Obama Demonstration Stop using it and buying doesnt like it, but theyve never declared an end to the so called global war on terror to say, you know, from now on, were going to use classic long foresman techniques. Were going to arrest people. Were going to prosecute them. Were not gonna just attain them forever as Enemy Combatants or worse. You know, were not going to use drones to summarily show them in places like yemen, when they dont pose an imminent fraction when theres been no attempts to try to detain them for lets say were getting judgment because i went ahead to arms were a couple of points, im sure we will come to very shortly. Johnson, you are an advisor to the pentagon at the department of defense, you were part of those discussions about whether it should be closed or not, but there seems to be pushback. On closing one ton of bay down, it was seen as a necessity, wasnt yeah, so i actually worked under the Obama Administration. I was not a political appointee. I was civil servants, but i might my, my Year Span both firms of the Obama Administration. And so i can tell you 1st county that President Obama definitely tried to close down one Tunnel Bay. He appointed 2 people, one of the State Department and one of the Defense Department who are in charge of reviewing cases and bringing them to the highest levels of the, of the national Security Council to review review those cases and recommending a release or otherwise. So i definitely will push back on can kind of point that the u. S. Does not want to close down one final day. So 1st of all, President Obama was making a concerted effort to do so. Pointing to envoys of the state and Defense Departments to do so. But another something that has not been mentioned that that have been part of the difficulty and closing down on Cono Bay is thats when we decided to release somebody one final day. We have to release them either to their Home Country or to a 3rd country if their Home Country wouldnt take them. And in many to in all cases, we have to we have to receive assurances from that country that we were sending them to, that they would not be tortured or detained, or unfairly treated once they got back. And in many cases, we actually were not able to receive those assurances from the home countries. We would start looking for 3rd countries, but it was really difficult to find any country that wanted to take them because they were so keen that unfortunately by the one animal brown take the case of the week or for example, all of the leaders that were animal day where theyre completely erroneous we, we thought they were fighting us, but it turns out they were training counts. And again, us down, learning how to fight, whether they can go back and protect themselves against the chinese. I mean, just somebody we couldnt find anywhere. Well, lets Break Somebody who is behind. We couldnt find any country right. Right in months or go ahead. We months or day. Were in belgrade. Youre in a 3rd country. We you sold to bill. Great. Effectively. Is that what happened to you . Yeah, this is a deal actually basically do those countries. You also want to, you know, i not a fair deal from the said its not like a did or didnt get one that restriction she mentioned that he wanted to do the detention. But when he found out that he couldnt do it before the solution that the congress imposed. So he tried to free as many as he caught because those we were many of us where clear in 2009 or 20141450. So it is tany, recently there was an Agreement Visit Element with the agreement element. Youre not state of those countries. Some kind of like Attention Integration Program when the package, it is also a budget for this program. But the money in the, in the black hole, the 3rd country will not talk about it to them, as they said, like they might be afraid something would. But if you look in europe here, for example, i mean if we got there, its more rate or it isnt. Because for the last year, i had been conducting the research of Rehabilitation Or Integration from one thing i wanted to need as part of my Bus Or Degree d. C. So i have to keep track of money problem. The problem is in the, in the rest of the country, there is a lack of Rehabilitation Or Integration program, harassment, new state, those new new gun, luna can program that can help tany, the lead that they need to fit into society and become productive number. If you see an example in germany, you know, man in pop out or in day the detainees, the chinese and so i t, their move live, they get married jobs and so on. So basically in my case, particularly, i was forced to come to serbia. They told me you have no choice in the rough, rough one, and im only i was forced to leave. I was sitting the chair and shipped to serbia in my case. Now kenneth, whats the human Rights Position here under international law . Month . Who was forced to go to serbia. He wasnt given a choice. Is that a violation of human rights . I mean, i think it as jasmine noted, the Obama Administration did make sincere efforts to resettle people, appointed a special envoy of the faith department. And, you know, they rightfully insisted on finding countries that would not torture people. But they also were looking for countries that would, you know, maintain some degree of Security Surveillance on, you know, the original unfairness, frankly, is being detained. And on top of it, with no due process at all. But if i could let me just put a bit of a qualification on, on Jasmine Point that obama wanted to for one time. I mean, in principle, yes, im in reality, she wouldnt take 2 steps but to this day, are the main impediments for the by the administration. That is, you know, 1st he made an initial effort to move the trial from the sub standard military commissions to federal court in New York. There was political opposition and he caved in. And so now theres actually legislation against which Obama Law goes through the 2nd. I mean, i remember speaking with obama directly, and i said, you know, would you abide by the principle of either prosecuting people before a legitimate federal court or releasing . And he said, no i, theres a 3rd category, people who we dont have the evidence to prosecute, you know, either because a torture or whatever and who remain too dangerous to release. And that is the, by the Ministrations Position to this day as well. And you know, undoubtedly there are a handful people in want to know to have not half the Security Review were deemed to still pose a threat. But i think you have to look at that in the perspective of the world, you know, are, do they pose a greater threat than the gazillion of other people out there who might want to do the united States Harm and use that threat . A handful of individuals in fact, really outweigh the threat caused by the existence of guantanamo which continues to stay, to be around and try for terrorist recruiters who loved the site. One channel, as evidence of the injustice of the us efforts to fight in the way that it, dest terrorist. So i think that there is, you know, that becomes, at the set, the obama ministrations are still problems facing the, by the ministration. And i hope that they can find a way to move beyond that to either, you know, basically to bring the candidates, lets get into, lets get into that. Lets get into the future. Jasmine, i mean kenneth is right, the problem, the problems that a Bama Hadnt shutting down still remained to this day with this new administration. Are they going to be any more successful you know, less than its hard to say, but i wanted to just make a quick point that is related to your question. But just to kind of point about, you know, bringing these detainees to the u. S. To be tried, i think that we have to remember, and we have to also pay respect and an honor, the victims of these terrorist attacks that really, really spells incredible Pain And Anguish at the thought of these detainees. Im talking about the very high level ones, the ones that we know were responses all not, im not talking about the ones that were, you know, wrong. We just pain at the sight of them coming to New York to the u. S. To the very, for oil, the day a half, you know, and, and changed the country forever. And how much of a huge Narrative Booth than how much of a huge P R to that would have been to these terrorists to come to New York city. And to basically stand in front of these victims. All you know, this would have been a victory for Al Qaeda to be tried. Would have been or closure one of the firemen for the family. You know, 911 picked him. They would not, its not very clear the cache a Court Case when that conviction would i understand. So you and i may think that right, but thats obviously not what the familys thought. And its not what if you look at, and this is like a slightly tangential topic, but if you, 1st of all, i think we should respect what the families wanted. Not what you. And i think even though i might agree with the families, did not want these people coming to us foil and talking about their ideology and their victory against the United States in a us court room. And i think we should respect that. And i think that the end of the day President Obama respected that, that, that feeling and that we, but also if you look at the way that these organizations recruit this actually bring to today because i know that part of the program you want to talk about the implications for whats happening today. If you look at the way that ill hide and i said, waged the war against the west and against their enemies, the p. R. Aspect with a huge aspect of it. Every single thing mattered. Everything was a part of that battle, coming to New York would have been a huge victory for them because they would have said, look, i have a lot for me to speak about what the things that ive done to this country. Theyre giving me a platform after i have them really running handle running out of time. Kenneth, i understand that you do want to say, but we have actually run out of time G Process is something that we need to get into it. Another program, sadly, but i do want to thank all our guests months, a day fee, jasmine, elko, and Kenneth Ross. And thank you to watch it. You can see the program again anytime by visiting our website out there at Dot Com and for further discussion as well. Facebook page at facebook Dot Com forward slash ha inside story. And you can also join the conversation on twitter. We are at asia inside story from me, ron khan, and the whole team hit by for now. The on air or online, be part of the debate, or pacific people. The ocean is our identity and the source of well being. We are the, when no help take it off the table. It says shoot inside atmosphere. People are demoralized. Theyre exhausted and many Health Care workers are experiencing p, tfc like symptom. Jump into this dream and julian global community. If youre online on youtube right now, you can be part of this conversation as well. This stream now does era, when the news breaks on wednesday, the 8th largest fire in california history, when people need to be home, many people who are writing even know what i am with exclusive interviews. For 4th, ill just be around teens on the ground with intensifying rain. People here appear that these are temporary solutions to bring. You moved when you document trees and live need the meat, the young river traders resumed. They can neither read nor run that. They know how to kill their breathing dangerous again with their hell do anything just to christine, you know, when else ive never seen so much devastation, more experienced how quickly everything can change at the turn of ours and the events in india became much more than just story one was the thing. We couldnt keep the people we cared about and i and there were times on. And when i had to hold back every day i was driven to convey the connect of trauma to make sure that despite the high numbers, we didnt forget that every single death represented of families in one moment, Helen Suffering could have been avoided. I became a journalist to tell the story of what is happening, but also show of the wider context. Im elizabeth koran, i ah, ive gotten his fans Health Care system on the brink of collapse the u. N. Is hoping to raise 600000000. 00 to avoid a humanitarian crisis. Ah. So you watching 0 live from do with me for the back. Also coming up. North korea says