Hardships, not an exaggerated wording, escape much hardships of establishing the Unity Government is behind us. And now the people of israel, everyone is putting their eyes on us, and the burden of proof is on us. We will work together in partnership with responsibility in order to man the resting the nation with any mediately bring back the country one normal functioninG One after a long period of paralysis and quarrels are. Bennett has spoken with us. President joe biden, calling him a great friend of israel. Earlier by the in said he was looking forward to strengthening bilateral ties. And having use the trial of myanmar Steeples Leader on funds, which is due to begin on monday, she is facing several charges including illegally accepting money. So she has been under House Arrest since the military took over. In february, dozens of people have Marshall Man mars, largest city to come for an end to military vol. Some very into flag, representing the association of southeast asian nations i see, and has been leading unsuccessful diplomatic efforts to resolve the crisis. Tony chain has more from bangkok on the charges on france, which he faces 1st challenges that were presented almost immediately after the crew were, were holdinG Onto illegal telecoms devices, namely walkie talkies and Cell Phone Blocking devices. Theyre apparently in her apartment a since then theyve added new challenges, flouncing the current of virus restrictions during the Election Campaign last year. The Election Campaign of the military says was flawed and was the reason for the february, the 1st Coo and last week, they added a new charge is very substantial ones of corruption pointing to 11 kilograms of gold and 600000. 00 us dollars. That she is accused of receiving and using her Power And Influence to get cheap land prices in the name of the foundation she was set up in her mothers name. Now her lawyers have said that these charges are absurd. They say they are hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst. Nonetheless, given the current situation in men, ma, they could be very serious. She could be facing between 10 and 40 years in jail. Weve seen very little of her since the 31st Coo, shes been held very much in isolation. Allies been communicated with her twice. This is the 1st time well meet her in person, and there are some concerns that she may be in full health being held. So far away from, from anybody and that she doesnt know whats been goinG On a minima over the last month since that happened to americans on trial in japan have admitted they helped former Nissan Chairman carlos go and flee the country in 2019 Michael Taylor and his son peter, were extradited in march. Carlos gordon was being held on financial misconduct charges when he escaped to 11 on malaysia has extended a national nation wide lockdown for 2 more weeks. After a sharp increase in coven 19 infections, an average of more than 5000 new cases have been confirmed every day for the past week. Gatherings and non essential trying will remain banned. Nato leaders are hoping to reset transatlantic relations at a summit with us President Joe Biden on monday. Washington face a new strategic concept will be discussed at the meeting in brussels. It includes action on chinas growing military presence and cyber threats from russia. Police in nicaragua have arrested 4 more opponents of president. Daniel ortega, in what critics calling an assault on democracy, they were due to run against ortega in upcoming elections. Any cope america, Football Competition has kicked off in brazil. The host countries facing a backlash for agreeing to hold the turn of mentoring the pandemic. The original whole sergeant, Tina And Columbia pulled up because of a surgeon covey. 19 infections. Stay with us on august, sarah. Ah, ah hi, im Steve Clements and i have a question. Are american officials and scientists starting to believe that the Corona Virus Pandemic came from a Lab Accident in Wu Han . Lets get to the bottom line. Ah, does it even matter how the pandemic began . Isnt it more important to figure out how to end the disease that is wiped out more than 3700000 people worldwide. And its still spreading. For china, the case is closed. Coven, 1900. Jump from animals to humans in late 2019 period. And i might add that some folks in china pushed a Conspiracy Theory, but the u. S. Military hatched it and release it in china. Last years investigations focused on a wet market and woo hon. This old Sea Food and exotic animals for human consumption, the World Health Organization, and many scientists agreed with this theory. Even though there are still a lot of lingering questions. When former President Donald Trump talked about the possibility of an accident at the move on institute of her ology, it was generally dismissed as a Conspiracy Theory changed with racism. But now President Joe Biden is asking his intelligence agencies to look into that very possibility. And china says, washington is now just playing politics. So how do we responsibly investigate the origins of cove it without political blinders . Day were speaking with dr. G. G gronvold, in immunology at the Johns Hopkins Center for health security, and the author of synthetic biology, safety, security, and promise. Shes a member of the Threat Reduction advisory committee, which advises the Defense Department on how to reduce the risk of nuclear, biological, chemical and conventional threats. And Jeannie Metal who writes about the future technology, health care, and geo politics. And hes the author of a great book, hacking darwin, genetic engineering, and the future of humanity. Hes a member of the World Health Organization expert advisory committee on human Genome Editing. Its great to have you both with us today. And jamie, let me just start with, you know, if you are sitting in china and during the tenure, a president , trump, a lot of these theories you know, about the virus coming from the Woo Hon Lab being, you know, G O engineered and even released by the chinese military to, to, to their own people. I think a lot of that was discounted largely by the media now, President Biden is in and some of these theories are coming back, i guess, you know, asia really well. My question from china is perspective is, wouldnt you expect a little whiplash in their response . It depends on where in china, i certainly believe that there are many senior people in china who recognize what happened here, and that is whatever the origins of the pandemic. And there is a legitimate debate in the legitimate conversation right now about whether emerge naturally 0 or not, john, from animals to humans or through some kind of Lab Incident. Its a very real question. Its an honest question. You mentioned in your intro, steve, that the World Health Organization has cited with the natural origin hypothesis, which is 100 percent as much as i love you. Its 100 percent untrue. Dr. Tedra has said that all that the W H O supports the investigation of all i policies including the possibility of a Lab Incident origin. So if i were in china, i would be a little worried right now, because i would know that the chinese government has carried out a massive cover up from day one. Immediately they started destroying samples, disappearing critical records, imprisoning citizen journalists, asking the most basic questions when they establish a universal gaG Order, preventing chinese scientists from saying, or writing anything publicly about pandemic origins without prior government approval. And so i dont think its whiplash. I just think that youre right, the world, many of us in the United States and im a progressive democrat, got in the habit of just assuming everything that President Trump said was just some kind of Fabrication Or Lie or whatever. But even a broken clock is right twice a day, and thats why ive been saying we need to evaluate the message, not the messenger. And i think right now there are 2 very valid origin hypotheses, and thats why ive always called for a full investigation. So we can get to the bottom of what went wrong and then address our greatest motor building. I mean, its a fascinating challenge and is a Mystery Sort of like a, whod done it and, and, you know, one would think of that line. Well, if china is incident or innocent of this, why do they behave so guiltily . But let me ask doctor, gone, vault a moment. Can you share with us where he, some of your skepticism comes of at least that path of looking at this pan. Democrats escape if you will, into mankind . Sure. Happy to. So a lot of the theories about where cove it came from come from either that it was originally in animals and made the jump somehow to humans, or that it was actually created in the laboratory. And i think that the evidence for that ladder that it was created in a laboratory is very weak and, and so theres a lot of problems with that. With that idea. One of the issues is that people, i think put a lot of, i mean i think science is amazing, but its often a lot more incremental and tedious than i think a lot of people think and, and so i, a lot of the discussions over what is possible in the laboratory to, to create, put a lot of faith in science that you know, should not be put into it quite yet. That you know, that scientist could basically mad me wave a Magic Wand and create a virus of this type. Right now there is a serious investigation that we need to have for the origin of this virus, but, but we need to do a lot more science to and a lot more exploration to figure out where this fires could have been derived. Well, let me ask jamie, and both of you together. I mean, one of the critiques you offer in your, in this paper was that when it comes to genetic editing and genetic design, a topic that Jamie Metal knows a lot about. That were not yet at the point in our collective knowledge in science and how to micro engineer those changes in genes in a way that would produce, you know, very fine results as of yet were going in that direction. Your argument is that were not there yet. Jamie, are we there yet . And we just dont collectively know it. Know, so i completely agree with white way is just for the people who think that a bunch of scientists in china sat down and they brought out all of their, their best crisper tools. And they just built using the tools of synthetic biology, some kind of, of this actual virus and then unleashed it on the world. Thats a very futuristic idea. Maybe in 20 years, 50 years. That will be possible. Its certainly not possible now. But thats why i think a lot of people have gotten confused with this conflation of the idea of a genetically bio genetically engineered bioweapon with the idea. Well, maybe could have been a very small genome added just of what was called the for in cleavage site. And theres a big debate about that happening right now, but you dont even need to go to, to the point of assuming that there with any Genome Editing to make the Lab Incident hypothesis possible. It could be something as simple as people from the one is due to a variety or the cdc going down to one of these bad infested caves and you, non, and in southern china and being infected and the human being the vectors. I could have easily been the one is due to her ology, which has the worlds largest collection of Bat Corona viruses. And they were doing things like called serial passage, which are just exposures of viruses to other viruses, to other cell cultures, to 8th, to knock in humanized might, it could easily have been that in all they were a lot of different permutations. And one of them was one that was more able to, to jump to, to human than somebody in the lab was infected and just accidentally walked it out. There was some problem of waste disposal. And so i think we dont have to go all the way to a genetically bio engineered virus to raise the very legitimate sion of an accidental Lab Incident. Well, i think this raises a g, g, some of the, the dimensions of lab protocols, lab safety. We do apparently understand and i dont have the report. But there are the accusations, and some of the intelligence reports done by the u. S. Government. The 3 individuals became sick in november of 2019 and that there was another case prior to that that Doctor Anthony found she has asked to look into which is a number of people who became sick after investigating a cave some time ago. And so what of Jamie Speculation that there could be something along these lines that may still be tagged to the lab, but may be less diabolical. I think that the only way that a Laboratory Accident Arjun makes sense with knowing the science that we have is if it was just like jamie described, where a virus was taken from the natural world and was examined in a laboratory and came out somehow. I still think that, you know, the natural introduction is probably more likely but, but you know, thats, thats what an investigation is for. However, i dont think that that we are going to be able to satisfy Everybodys Curiosity to, to be able to get to that level of certainty. We can, we have to take the word of what has been put forward. Right now. We have heard, its been in the news for months that the people who worked in the lab had serology, tested, and were not had not been exposed to coven prior to the demick. So we either take that or retest, or i dont know how one would get to greater certainty than that declaration. I think there are more things, though that can be done scientifically that were not doing to be able to better underscore like, you know, to figure out where it just came from. And that is to do more samplinG Of the environment and to, to be able to trace back some of the where the animals came from. Those leads are going to go cold if theyre not cold already. And so i think it would be nice to see more of an effort that we all work together to be able to find the origin and the natural world and then see where that takes us. Well, let me ask steve. Yeah, let me, let me just jump in there. Im all for additional testing and im in for sure we should do all kinds of Testing And Sampling in the natural world. Because as ive said, thats one very legitimate hypothesis. One of the reasons why i so concerned about, and i think we need to do much more or to examine the Lab Incident. Hypothesis is that everything that G G said is contingent upon our essentially trusting the word of Show Jang Lee and a small number of people at the Woo Hon Institute of veronica in an ideal world on day one of the pandemic. She had dr. Show and others would have said, you know, please, international community. However, however, organized, come in and review our records. Look at the lab notes. Look at the databases of what viruses we did or didnt have in our repository. If at that time, lets say on day one, we knew that the one institute of veronica had Sars Coby too, or a possible Precursor Virus to it, in their repository. That would be game over. We would know that the origin is a lab and, and if on the other hand we had full access, we knew everything that was happening there. She has said that there was no chinese military engagement at w i. V. Although every us intelligent agency has asserted that there was a, there are major question about sure. Jang lee legitimacy and her, her credibility and accountability. These serology tests, the g, g mentioned, were taken way after the potential exposures. So the chinese cover up and the destruction of evidence there, and thats in my view, thats the problem. These are unanswerable questions. They just cant be answered without a full process or looking into them. And when the international Study Team was in china, people think it was an investigation. They were on the ground for 4 weeks, 2 weeks in quarantine, and then 2 weeks for a highly curated, manipulated study to are included. I visit to the cobra propaganda museum. And then at the end of their there 2 weeks, they did a vote on which hypotheses were more or less likely. And they did it by a show of hands where the chinese scientists had to raise their hands in front of the chinese party commissars. And we all knew that people would ask basic questions, had been put in prison. So do you think one of those scientists could have raised their hand at the . Yeah, i think a lab in the origin is possible. We should look into that meeting that all of this exists within a content G G. Looks like you want to respond. Yeah, i think i just want to caution your viewers about a concept that we called mirror imaging. So this is something that we thought about a lot when it was the u. S. As the had an adversarial relationship with the soviet union. And that whole idea was looking at the soviets and saying, why are they doing this . Well, they must be doing this way for this reason. And, and the whole idea is could be false if you are making your enemy or your adversary a little bit more like you. So, im one caution you. Your viewers is to say that sometimes china is going to behave in a particular way that may not have anything to do with whether or not they are covering up this particular incident. And its important when youre looking at the discussion of where this virus came from, that we will push the science and push what we know and not what we think we know about or, or what we presume to be why china is acting the way that they are well, i mean ive said that like a bad could have come out of the cave wearing and Name Tag speaking english and Fact Somebody and post them into and people would, you know, china may act exactly the same way. And even if the origin was clear, isabel, let me, let me just say a few moment just a little bit on what G G said. I dont think thats just china being China Shouldnt be any way that we should think about this about this issue. Because there we have this terrible in my view, very likely avoidable pandemic. Theres this terrible cover up we cant get into, thats just china being china and saying, oh, transparency and accountability. Thats just our thing. We should just let them do their thing if they want to, you put a 1000000 weavers in concentration camps. Thats just china being china. I think i totally reject that. I think your 2nd Point is a very important point. We are entering the era the age of synthetic biology. He wrote a great book about that. And then the Core Message of this era is that our species has the increasing ability to read, write and hack the code of life. And over time, were going to have a much greater ability to just to, to manipulate all of life, including, including viruses and including, you know, maybe its 10 years, maybe its 20 years, however many years. And so we need to be thinking about this, and thats why we need to be learning the tough lessons. Thats why we need to be doing everything we can to understand how this pandemic started and how we can be much better prepared for the next ones. All i mean is that one should not assume that the origin of the virus tends anything to do with, with the way that china is acting. And we need to make sure that we separate out the science from other consideration. But what i but it is true, but while G And Biology in general is, is its, this is the science of the century and, and a lot of nations are looking towards biology as a way to lift their economies and to provide not only medicines, but materials and Manufacturing And Everything else into for the next several decades. So countries reporting a lot of money into the bio sciences and. And so we have to think of different ways that we can keep bio safety funded, that we can encourage good norms and, and be able to have the kind of safety systems in place so that people are li flagged and you may not be able to stop it but at least halt some of the incidents like that, Christopher Baby experiments. So this is, its not as a nebulous kind of governance for sure big. You know, you cant tell other nations what precisely they are doing. But we do have treaties. We do have norms, we do have engagements, we have publications, there are lots of different layers and ways that we can try and, and promote our vision of how science should be operating. Thank you. Please. Just a minute. Thats why i think theres, theres a through line between the crisper babies and its an open question whether they even got greater resistance, future resistance to, to h i v, which is doubtful. But theres a through line chain, the, the who john way, crisper baby issue, right. And this, and a lot of other things that are, that are happening and there are too light pieces of it. One is that science and our biggest challenges are global. Busy but were not organized to address global challenges and there are mismatches is increasingly dangerous. The 2nd challenge, if i may have non state actors, right . So not said after doing this is a difference between what government and militarys are organizing to do and what individuals who are entrepreneurial and think theyre going to tackle something with new technologies or doing. Yeah, and connect back. So, i mean, if you, if you all the states that have navies looked, probably looked at what happened with the u. S. S. Roosevelt. And said, you know, that, that is terrible. Weve got to do something about our defense right now to say that are to be able to take a symbol of american power and reduce it to a hospital ship. Mean thats, thats, and Thats Something that we need to be worried about. It. Let me ask jamie, let me ask you a question. You have written a lot about your concerns about a guy named peter, daz in the ico health alliance, and Anthony Falcon dark tiffany. Out, you said hey, you know, the u. S. Government has helped fund some of his work, the defense support. And if you could do Batt Surveillance and be involved in that, thats a good thing. It would be irresponsible not to what are your concerns about peter dads act. If you can give us a brief catch up on that. So peter days it is one of the Worlds Premier will call him virus hunter. People who believe that we need to have surveillance to understand these viruses that are out there. And we cant just bury our head in the sand and he was actually one of the heroes of the effort to track down the origins of the 1st sars outbreak. The reason why i have become moved from being a big fan of his, in the past to a big critic of his now are essentially to thing. I 1st, he was the organizer of a letter in the british journal, the lancet in february of last year, which claimed without sufficient supporting evidence that this outbreak on will almost certainly are very likely stems from natural origin. And called anybody who was even raising the possibility of a Lab Incident origin. A Conspiracy Theorist i called that scientific propaganda, ive called it thuggery. I even called for the editor in chief of the lancet to be fired because i think it was not appropriate to use that kind of language when there was, we needed to have an open on his conversation. Second, peter, who already we know through Email Access through right to know with highly manipulated in that process and trying to create the impression of unanimity and didnt disclose any conflict of interest. Then he was a member of both the W H O organized but not lead Study Team. And the Lancet Commissioner has a massive conflict of Interest And Someone who has funded the work at the one institute of garage thats now being brought into question. Well, thank you will G G. I love your comments on that. Whether its about peter to day sake, but also on the broader side of the scientific commons globally. And how you know that. I mean, these dont follow national lines and my impression, how can we make sure that that remains healthy, enroll bussed in serving the public interest. Im going to give you the last word. So i think that theres a lot that we need to learn from this. And one of the things ive been struck by is to small a group of people have been making this their career to be able to investigate new viruses. We should be doing a lot more of this and making sure that seeing what we can do to stop pandemic, not just, not just make vaccines really quickly, once they, once they come upon us. So i think that means opening this up to being a greater a bigger field, having more engagement between scientists workinG On. And we have seen pretty clearly that infectious diseases dont know borders and putting her head in the sand is not going to change that. You know, we dont do what we can to stop spill overs. Well, id like to thank Johns Hopkins University immune ologist. Dr. Gigi Gronvold And Ryder in Technology Future Ologist jamie met. So thank you both for being with us today. I really wish we could have these kinds of conversations whenever we have a car is very, very good to talk to you both. Thank you. They said, so whats the bottom line in relations between super powers . Theres no such thing as an innocent question. Itd be absolutely fabulous to think that the world is open to unshackled, scientific inquiry, just for the sake of science and human curiosity. But here in the real world, everything consequential get shackled by politics. Sometimes theyre good folks trying to help the whole world come out on top of this process, but thats not always how it works. If the u. S. Government is challenging Chinas Version of the truth, it will be seen as an act of aggression. And for some reason or other, china has done a lot to blur the origins of coven and muscle. Those who knew something about the early days of the killer virus. So politics aside, identifying the source of the pandemic is vital fighting the next. Whether wed like to or not, the consequences for mankind are staggering. And thats the bottom line. Ah. On june 16th, the leaders of the United States and russia meet face to face the mid deep trained relationship from ukraine to the jailinG Of a kremlin christian. Again, i think lima change there is much to discuss Wilmot Bite and Putin Stomach Mark the warminG Of the co p. Join out his era for all the days events and in depth analysis. Children born in jewish did he have trash discovered the beauty of music in the ugliest of places. 7 ah, when a chance to play for the world 10 Mariana T into a dream. Ah, landfill, harmonic Witness Documentary on now. Whats most important to me is talking to people understanding what theyre going through here as we believe everyone has a story were hearing. Ah, yall just bear with me. So Robin Indo Reminder of our top new stories right wing national listen of Tale Bennett has been sworn in as israel. Pardon me . As israels new leader, after parliament approved a new Coalition Government by a narrow margin, it had its Benjamin Netanyahu is 12, your grip on power. That it leads a coalition of 8 parties with vast ideological differences. But its promising to bring unity to divided nation. And the few come surely, i mean we are at the start of new days