The headlines this hour on aljazeera Rails Assault on gaza continues as we wait also this building we see in the middle of shot there it has had as they called a Warning Tap sent in by the israeli military to warn people that their building is likely to be brought down we are waiting to see if and when that will happen a residential tower in Gaza City now is a saying the assault on gaza really did continue at pace more than 100 bombs and shells were fired through the night and into this morning at least 122 palestinians have been killed since the offensive began. Possessions are under way for palestinians killed during the latest told the largest general strike in decades on tuesday 4 people were killed across the occupied West Bank more from. Residents of a complex of 2 buildings 16 story buildings were told to evacuate building now thats a building that. By and large residential building each floor has about 6 apartments and so you can imagine now the paniC Of those families trying to leave as quick as possible maybe grabbing some belongings because they were they dont know whether they will be ever be able to return to their homes or whether that building will be flattened. With other buildings in the days before and in other News India where coronavirus deaths have hit a record high again more than 4 and a half 1000 recorded in the last 24 hours a number of new cases though coming down after reaching the highs of more than 400002 weeks ago. We were talking and now theyre attacking everyone in myanmar do you regret words like that. Absolutely nigeria with a Woman President it would be great meets with global news makers and the stories that matter. On the strain could it be looking out the actually helped the temperature on. What i mean. You could have. Terrio pumped into Ass Stratosphere that material could reflect the suns rays or solar energy all the way back to the sun meaning that we down here a kept core that is a very basic rudimentary understanding of solar Geo Engineering there are pros there are cons there are known as an unknown there is a debate lets take a look should we be pursuing solar Geo Engineering the answer is that we just dont know what we do know most of the impacts of climate change are serious and getting worse and were not doing all we need to do to address the climate crisis so we do engineering might be a useful part of a portfolio of responses but also on hills a wide range of poorly understood risks or will this one Research Program can help us understand those risks and whether or not salute your engineering deserves a spot in the portfolio of climate change responses solid you and you knowing is a really dangerous idea it is messing with the global climate system that is basically just about suppressing some of the symptoms of climate change it is not doing anything about the root causes and it comes with tremendous risks for global communities and ecosystems so instead is betting on high Risk Techno fixes what we really should be doing is get out of fossil fuels that means. And gas and not be expanding any of that its destruction and theres really no way we can geoengineering our way out of the climate crisis some of i guess a nodding their head some of i guess is shaking their heads let the debate forget hello David Hello Angele and i can be really nice have you on the Stream David reintroduce yourself to international audience. Im David Keith them professor at harvard in public policy and also maturing i worked on this topic i worked on climate for about 30 years nice to have a hell of a hindu while what you do have the mind and thank you family for having me on the show many ms im on im an Energy Policy Consulting based in New Delhi in the uk i have been to young people and Silage Engineering my interest in the space is going to be a bushing that interested in climate change and the sort of so you should that be looking at that. Great to have it and can i please introduce yourself to international audience watching right now hard for me its good to be a year my name is Kelly Ones or im the Executive Director of a 3 year old nonprofit organization called sober lining and our focus in Silver Lining is near term climate risk so we drive research we were government stakeholders numbers of the publiC Our youth organizations to look at expanding our portfolio of options to address climate risk in the next 30 to 40 years where we may house and gaps that might not be addressed in other way. Thank you kathy thank you thank you david and audience i know you have thoughts on this on youve got opinions and maybe theyre a couple of things that you want to ask. Guests jump into the Comment Section and you take a big part of this discussion they idea kelly and david that Geo Engineering may well be a climate Change Solution david you go fast. So solution is a loaded word and that picks up exactly on the critique you heard which is the idea that its the sole Solution Nobody in this debate whos remotely sensible things its a Solution Id just put that off you should write it maybe is a way to substantially reduce risks over the next generation in ways that we cannot achieve by emissions cuts alone so maybe that the combination of emissions cuts and solar geoengineering could be significantly safer particularly for the worlds most vulnerable that would be emissions cuts alone but no single thing as a solution even emissions cuts alone are not a solution because we clearly need adaptation a complicated problem like climate change has many different things we need one of which may be this technology and one of the things that we found as we were putting this show together the Stream Show together was trying to find out or of the different ways that maybe you could reflect off the sun the suns radiation the energy so you could cool actually if that was possible im looking here on my laptop knowing how bright Science Feasibility and applying for a reset can you tell us what moving out brightening is. Certainly and i appreciate your characterization we dont tend to refer to these techniques as blocking the sun but rather increasing the reflection of sunlight so a relatively modest amount of increase in the reflection of sunlight of clouds of particles and this fear can produce quite a large Akai Act in terms of Heat Energy moving out of your system an immersion cloud brightening the ideas based in the image that you showed on the observations from things that already happened in the system. Where particles from emissions and. Natural sources mix with clouds in ways that make them slightly brighter so we need an image here this streaks that you see in the clouds those bright streaks are actually created by the emission from ships and globally today scientists believe that the totality of the particles in a mission is not the particle separate greenhouse gases facts but those are the dirtier kind of pollution particles one of the side effects is that they mix with clouds in this way and globally are are thought to be creating something of a Cooling Effect that we dont understand very well the idea behind marine cooperate ning is to use a cleaner more benign material articles from Ocean Spray and Sea Water to brighten clouds over the ocean that are particularly susceptible to the effect and its thought although theres a fair. Bit right ok i also had a wait so help me get back on track. What do you. If you can hear me thinking now i want to encourage i am all right so if you what exciting one thing goes up into the stratosphere to help cool for us theoretically what what are you what is going up there in it in marine cloud brightening materials going into the lower atmosphere so its coming up from the Surface Right and in marine cloud great you know proposal is its Insult Spring thats generated from seawater sprayed over the ocean into low lying. And so it brightens patches of these clouds in a way that reflects large amounts of sunlight back to space in a way that could produce a global Cooling Effect thank you for speaking slightly that is the audience i would like a way ahead of me im just i want to kelly just say actually so this is this is fascinating this so much Research And Science going on here why would you be concerned. So i think the 1st thing to realize is that you know get on the spot where youre hardening towards a climate and watch and see and and climate scientists and policymakers have made us all aware of that but the point is that there are 2 camps of art on by that we need to push to salute you and your research one camp says that you know we dont know enough about engineering and it could potentially be an option that people see want in a climate in which to see and so we need to know more about it so we need more research the other camp which also puts us of a different set of scientists it consists of environmental policy exploits and also other governments such as a united kingdom that has put out statements saying that grounded the source that is available and were under resourced and if were not there we feel that need know enough or they need to make the statement that we dont need more. Such because it is likely to cause more detriment than benefit to certain sections of the population are so the question you really are insular to Engineering Research is that they need to be a point in the sea such maybe stop an os guss brain do we know enough to make the skull on whether we need to progress with the point is so low to ensure it cannot be an indefinite quest to make it a go between shouldnt despite all the. But i dont think it is i think here is what i think we know with real confidence theres an enormous amount of research now over a decade and a half to suggest that the biggest drivers of global climate risk are peak temperatures and theyre specially drivers for the worlds poorest they kill people they make people less economically productive and they make it harder to learn literally the one thing we know from every single model no exceptions about solar Geo Engineering is it would reduce peak temperatures and do it in a way thats pretty uniform its not like theres some group of scientists with a model that shows that doesnt trip happen all models show that would happen so thats the potential the only serious paper the looked at the effect of this technology on say global inequality showed that it would dramatically reduce global Income Inequality and would likely reduce global deaths from the waves now to be clear theres a big set of risks and the same community does researching this has in a way that i think is wonderful but often the very 1st to raise those risks from the beginning but quantitative Answers Matter and despite the kind of stuff you heard in the lead and say from the different i recall there is not evidence that the risks are really big compared to the benefits in fact we now have many side of the papers from researchers around the world on many of the key risks you shouldnt Trust Anyone scientists you should trust to a group of people thats that thats surrounds the world and hes not the we know that each of the rest that weve looked at the Air Pollution Risk from doing this the Ozone Risk Cetera theyre real and the communities one of the 1st me to talk about this wrist but they look relatively small compared to the benefits and to me that is the reason to take it seriously and i think we have to be very careful about people who live were pretty rich who live far from the Equator Kind of dismissing this when theyre not the ones who are going to suffer the most. I mean not coming here oh yeah this is going to they get so so i think i mean one of the points they need theyve made is that you know. That means more than suggest that so no Judge Hearing could be beneficial for certain sections i mean it could be another specials on the Monument Population in the future if you want to implement it but i think its important to highlight the law that. Basically the resource thats being done in this were joined here in is being done to simulations in climate more dues which helps us understand the impact of Synergy Or Ingenuity on the old system so scientists that work on these mortgages have recently also produced people of that list that made it on so i didnt use in these mortgages and if thats the highlighted that it creates jalen does in the government in the impacts of your ingenuity on no clue are regional climate conditions so i mean they dont even with that is the source thats happening right now its not taking into account an order. That does not mean theyre not the only dependent. That theyre not perfectly dependable is literally true its the same Science Evidence that it is a model just. As we use for understand the impacts of C O 2 so just with when we had C O 2 to the atmosphere which is a climate we also cant predict exactly what will happen locally we cant do it for either its the same underlying science you cant dismiss the science to suggest solar geothermal would be useful and i accept the science is just climate is a big risk kelly can i open this conversation up a little bit more because we have people online who also have some questions and and some thoughts im just going to sell yet who is on twitter she says i be interested to know who decides if we go ahead with 7 of geoengineering or not the entire well it is investigate what if theres a 20 Percent Chance of causing damage who gets to vote ok lets take that childs kennie. So thank you for that Question Sort of thats a trivia question really believe that this is a field where scientific assessment is really important open science that allows stakeholders from around the world to look at the information is really important and that Government Government Engagement is key so in Silver Lining we work with the u. S. Science agencies and the u. S. Government to help develop a scientific Assessment Path and were hopeful that we can work in the u. N. Arena as well to develop a scientific Assessment Path that helps stakeholders and government representatives make these decisions in an open and constructive way because scientific information is critical to that and i think we disagree with david on the level of certainty that we have around both the of the sea and the risks but that process of driving information so that we can all look at it together is critical im just looking. In this rainy is watching on each of us thank you for being part of the Show Today if we do so no Geo Engineering how do we force companies to change the harmful practice my concern is people will keep doing the same harmful things over and over again they would touch and they shouldnt take a climate Change Solution. But it can have. Companies will keep doing the wrong things and less governments force them to stop so we wont get climate action unless we have Government Action to regulate the use of the atmosphere is a Waste Dump for our carbon thats what climate activists including me have fought our entire careers for no question it wont just happen automatically we need we need people marching the streets we need Government Action thats whats going to change and nothing about really changes that much one way or the other solar general will provide an excuse a false excuse that may be used by some people to try and avoid emissions cuts but its wrong nothing we know about solar changes the fact that we have to cut emissions eventually to net 0 in order to have a stable climate im looking at my Laptop David where you talk us through its. So that everybody can understand what is going on ham what were looking at because were still in that phase right now where were looking at theory but also trying to do some practical research as well this is part of the practical Reset State yes this is an example of a Research Project called the stratospheric controlled perturbation experiment run by my colleague Frank Koinange where the objective is to understand where the stratospheric balloon experiment how some aerosols in the stratosphere or cells are just really fine particles that are small if they dont fall very fast how they interact with each other how much they stick together and how particular interaction happens in a plume and if one was ever going to do this actually for real from aircraft with much much larger quantities of material you would need to understand the details of that interaction so its more to say this isnt a test of whether or not or generational works or not its a incremental step to understand a little bit better some of the underlying zines i want to bring in a voice this important because i think theres a a lot of people not quite understanding what is going on but theres still the research that is happening and then why worry about the downside the negative impacts that what might happen if we change how warm or how cool is have a listen have a look. Solar engineering as a technology that is now being touted as one of the solutions for the climate crisis can have many unintended Consequences 1st for that it can alter the regional climate there were affecting not only the country that is using indoor deployment but on to the countries in the neighborhood secondly it has political connotations because it may divide the world into haves and have nots that is countries that have access to the Stick Knology and the ones that do not have access to it especially the developing world totally may have security implications as well because this technology can be used but you will thereby creating some sort of insecurity in many regions as our whole list of concerns there coming from the public is there im just fundamentally you start kelly you pick up is there a. Problem with the public being on board with the science this is the science is ahead of the public. So i think there is definitely a level of Suspicion And Fear either in the minds of the public because one is that new ill acknowledge that they are a lot of uncertainties that associated with. And the fact that you know people and communities are there isnt it is that these communities that are forced by a. Little bit of the impacts of climate change theyre not only at this decision making to. Read these are just going to go so i mean not being why so open you know not being able to understand what is happening in terms of its. Problematic is that. Well we think its a really important problem to address but it does takes a just a kid resources to study these questions and i think theres a misperception that the research is moving quickly that the total level of research in this area around the world its tiny and there are a handful of researchers and just single digit 1000000. 00 per year all over the world studying us and so we think its actually quite important that we invest resources where they are in the climate models and the observations in the tiny experiments that will help us understand these things and drive to make that information available and make that participation available to people around the world so for example were working with Amazon Web services to put global climate models on the cloud that could look at these questions in a way that would allow researchers in the global south and other parts of the world to study them for themselves so we think the problem is not advancing the science but the problem is creating the resources in access so that everyone can share in it and then have a voice around the table as to what were going to do here we have a very serious Safety Situation the current best projections have over 1000000000 people on the planet displaced and so we think this is a way of exploring options to see if we can do better than that. I agree with everything kelly just said and i think i want to add one more point which is its easy to on any topic like this cherry people have opinions in different directions to extent that we know anything we dont know very much about what regular people actually think theres good evidence from 2 papers that people in more vulnerable climate more climate vulnerable countries are more supportive of research on this so its true both among climate negotiators depending on where they came from and its true in asian countries if you compare rich and poor poor countries are more supportive and in general it appears actually maybe a little contradict your implication i mean that it may actually be that regular people are more supportive of this than experts i dont think we know that definitely but to the extent that we have empirical evidence from surveys thats the way it appears and its really difficult as kelly was saying its not like this is a bank huge area of research its it was very it was very nice and is becoming less nice because the climate is actually warming up so people are now thinking what else what else can we do here im going to show to headlines david i put eyes that has these Headlines Musk but they but theyre going to be quite painful for you to look at controversial Test Flight aimed at calling the pilot cancel it. Sweden Council Bill gates controversial climate Engineering Project is supported that you were involved in bill gates has put some investment into it what happened david why was it so im sorry but if you say i got into it right there billions did not invest thats just plain false bill gates was one invest means of financial investment though gates was one of a whole range i guess i do you its not david i did say he was one of the investors so its not it ok yeah but but that was a typically most of it was about her return which is different from philanthropy and he had no Control Or Insight into this think its kind of important that actually people are saying things that are false sorry to get my back up but i think truth matters absolutely welcome place containing the project that was going to happen in june has been counseled it was going to be in swedish lapland what happened then and how can we make that connection between what weve been talking about and the Council Ation of that practical Research Project so we were only planning to fly there because theres a limited number of places around the world to do these transferability and the. Space corporation turns out to be a wonderful partner for doing ballooning so we thought that we might fly with them for that reason and some Sammy Council indigenous organisation and some environmental groups. Produced a very you know were very negative argued that it shouldnt happen and to be clear they actually can see that it has no risk but that their risk is the idea which i think is a consistent view and they argued that it shouldnt happen and swedish government. Took that seriously and basically told us to see that they shouldnt fly us thats what i thank you for sharing that with us that must be quite disappointing for you and the rest of your team at this point but i want to bring in a another point this one comes from Catcher Mckinnon whos thinking about ok if we get a little bit further along with the science then what do we need to be thinking about. We need to start a public conversation about solar Radiation Management soon and that conversation needs to be focused on the deep and difficult ethical questions that this new technology raises for us collectively and in particular we need to start talking soon about how to govern research into this new technology. In order to mitigate the risks all of the technology learning ahead of Governance I J im just wondering are we very yet i know you have thoughts theyve got an issue they were talking serious about governance 30 years ago i mean when i 1st became involved in this i and many other people have argued the biggest problem is governance and we need to begin governor discussions are hard we need to begin the conversations early in order to have any chance of making reasonable decisions when the real decisions come up at the decisions to be clear they shouldnt be made by scientists they need be made in some organized way that is legitimate and democratic as possible but that can all happen in a 2nd and just about to wrap up that final thoughts that day so i think its important for people to ignore that these are times you know geoengineering crowd and he is being dominated by a group of their midst institutions that is based in the globe not so the only constructive Weve Award on this is to establish an international Governance Mcgann Ism that is now decided not to international participation ok thanks sanjay i would also just right at the end of the show you you poor up a point that needed a new show to interest to talk about that point but thank you anthony for ending on why the debate will continue i actually carry david on the chair thanks for your comments really appreciate i seen eckstein take every play. Covered willing to leave has compounded the Homelessness Crisis in l. A. Abandoned impoverished families a force of radical change she decided to say hey were going to stand out as a human right by claiming properties left vacant by the state the 1st thing i did was the locks my duty is to my daughters safe that means breaking the law then i want to do that for one shelter in place ballets fight for housing on aljazeera. A father should be a protector ready. He was her tormentor. Betrayed for years she carries the evidence inside her. But will this be enough to find justice in afghanistans patriarchal society. A 1000 girls like me. A Witness Documentary on aljazeera. Each and every one of us have the responsibility. To change our persons but for the better. Now. We have to fight for character and if we could do this experiment and if part of us you could increase just a little bit that would be worth doing and waiting out any idea that it would become a magnet who is incredibly raspy she was there are asking for women to get 50 Percent Representation in the constituent assembly here are these people pick up to collect the signedness say the reasoning this is extremely important so is it the way the city. Where. We need to take america to try to bring people together trying to deal with people who are left behind. Israel carries out more air strikes on gaza after a major wave of protests against the attacks and people out on the streets of the occupied West Bank this wednesday as preparations begin for the funerals of victims of israeli violence. Come all Santa Maria here in doha with those stories and the rest of the Days News on aljazeera oh